#133 4 Common Misconceptions About Avoidant Attachment
In this week's episode, I'm joined by my partner Joel and we're exploring some common misconceptions about avoidant attachment. Avoidant attachment is frequently misunderstood and misrepresented in a lot of online content, and it's so important to me to dispel some of those portrayals and offer something more humanising and more honest about what's going on for avoidant folks.
In this week's episode, I'm joined by my partner Joel and we're exploring some common misconceptions about avoidant attachment. Avoidant attachment is frequently misunderstood and misrepresented in a lot of online content, and it's so important to me to dispel some of those portrayals and offer something more humanising and more honest about what's going on for avoidant folks.
We cover misconceptions around:
Avoidant people not wanting to be in relationships
Avoidant people only caring about themselves
Avoidant people never experiencing anxiety in their relationships
Avoidant people being unable to change
Understanding Avoidant Attachment: Compassion for the Misunderstood
Attachment styles profoundly influence our interpersonal relationships, acting as blueprints for how we relate to others, particularly in times of stress or emotional need. Of these, avoidant attachment often faces widespread misconceptions that can lead to misunderstandings in personal relationships and the advice offered to those who identify with this attachment style. This discussion seeks to unravel these misconceptions, fostering a better understanding of avoidant attachment and promoting supportive relationships.
Debunking Misconceptions About Avoidance in Relationships
The belief that individuals with an avoidant attachment style have an across-the-board aversion to relationships is a common misconception. Far from being universally true, many people with this style do engage in relationships. However, they may struggle with achieving the right balance between intimacy and their inherent need for independence. It isn't a matter of not wanting a relationship; it's about navigating the complexities of intimacy and maintaining a comfortable level of emotional space.
The myth that avoidant partners never change is another unfounded trope that can hinder relationship growth. People are not static; they evolve and adapt through experiences and personal reflection. Resisting the impulse to impose change on a partner and instead fostering an atmosphere of support and understanding can facilitate organic growth and relationship satisfaction for both parties.
Navigating Personal Space and Emotional Regulation
A pressing challenge for individuals with avoidant tendencies is managing their emotional landscape within the precincts of a close relationship. They are often adept at self-regulation when on their own but may struggle to process and communicate their emotions in tandem with a partner. Establishing personal space that respects both partners' boundaries is key to creating a sustainable, fulfilling relationship dynamic.
Mislabeling as 'Selfish' or 'Uncaring'
Labels such as 'selfish' or 'uncaring' are frequently, and often unfairly, attributed to those with an avoidant attachment style. The truth behind the façade of indifference is usually more complex – assuredly not a lack of care, but perhaps a struggle in expressing it. Patience and empathy from a partner can help bridge the gap between misunderstood actions and the true intentions behind them.
The Anxious-Avoidant Dynamic
Heightened sensitivities arise in relationships that mix anxious and avoidant attachment styles. Here, the anxious partner's need for validation and approval can clash with the avoidant person's instinct to withdraw for self-preservation, feeling underappreciated. Recognising and addressing these differing needs and reactions can lead to more harmonious and supportive partnerships.
Internal Anxiety and Overthinking
Although not always outwardly apparent, individuals with avoidant attachment can experience significant internal anxiety. This can manifest in overthinking and anticipating the worst-case scenarios. Identifying and soothing these internal dialogues is crucial for avoidant individuals to feel secure in a relationship.
Fearful Avoidant Attachment Patterns
Even within the spectrum of avoidant attachment, there are variances such as the fearful avoidant type. Here, a fear of becoming too dependent can often lead to an individual exhibiting anxious attachment patterns, especially during periods of relationship upheaval like breakups. Learning to navigate these intense emotions is vital for maintaining inner peace and relationship stability.
Encouraging Self-awareness and Trust
Developing self-awareness and trust is an imperative step for those grappling with avoidant attachment. Understanding one's own attachment style, triggers, and responses can significantly improve relational dynamics and lead to more secure attachments.
Balancing Vulnerability and Control
For an avoidant individual, the need to balance vulnerability with a sense of control is paramount. Engaging in open and honest communication about fundamental attachment needs can help avoidant partners feel more at ease with vulnerability, ultimately contributing to a deeper and more secure connection.
Fostering a Supportive and Loving Environment
The foundation of any meaningful relationship change lies in fostering a loving and supportive environment. For those with avoidant attachment, such an environment can encourage self-disclosure and connectivity without the fear of judgement or loss of autonomy.
Finding the Path to Growth
Underlining the discussion is the philosophy that a one-size-fits-all approach to attachment and personal change is unrealistic. Acknowledging that each person's journey towards growth is unique allows for a more nuanced and compassionate perspective on relationships. Partners of those with avoidant attachment styles can empower change by nurturing an empathetic space that respects each person's pacing and process of transformation.
In conclusion, while avoidant attachment is often veiled in misconceptions, taking the time to dissect and dispel these myths can lead to healthier, more resilient relationships. Through understanding, patience, and mutual support, it is possible to navigate these waters together, allowing both partners to thrive within their attachment paradigms.
Questions for Discussion & Reflection
Reflect on your understanding of avoidant attachment - prior to this episode, did you hold any of the common misconceptions about avoidant individuals, such as the belief that they cannot change or do not desire relationships? How has your perspective shifted after listening to Stephanie and Joel's discussion?
Consider the idea of needing personal space within a relationship. Have you ever felt conflicted between wanting intimacy and needing your own space? How do you navigate these feelings without sending mixed signals to your partner?
In the context of your own relationships, how do you balance vulnerability with maintaining a sense of control? Can you think of instances where you have successfully managed this balance, and what did that look like for you and your partner?
Joel talked about his personal struggle with expressing care. Can you relate to the challenge of showing affection or care in a way that feels authentic to you? How might this tie in with your attachment style?
The anxious-avoidant dynamic can often lead to a cycle of withdrawal and pursuit in relationships. Have you experienced this pattern before, and how did it affect your relationship? What steps did you take, or could you take in the future, to break the cycle?
Stephanie and Joel emphasise the importance of a supportive and loving environment for organic change within a relationship. Reflect on your past or current relationships – what does a supportive environment look like for you, and how does it contribute to personal and mutual growth?
Avoidant attachment can involve an internal sense of anxiety that isn't always expressed openly. Think about a time you might have overthought a situation or scenario with a partner to the point of worst-case thinking. How did you handle this internal turmoil, and what did it reveal about your attachment needs?
The episode discusses the misconception that avoidant people are selfish or uncaring. Have you ever been quick to judge a partner's behaviour as selfish without considering their attachment style? How can you approach such situations with more empathy in the future?
Joel shares that being labelled as never able to change can lead to resistance. Reflect on how labels and expectations have influenced your own behaviour or personal growth. What might be the impact of releasing these expectations, both for yourself and your relationships?
Stephanie has mentioned the upcoming changes with her maternity leave and program offerings. Reflecting on transitions and periods of change in your own life, how do you prepare for such times? What changes have you observed in your attachment patterns during significant life transitions?
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie [00:00:27]:
In today's episode, we're talking all about some common misconceptions about avoidant attachment. Now today's episode is a little bit special because I'm recording live from Bangkok of all places, and I'm joined by my partner, Joel. Hi, Joel.
Joel [00:00:49]:
Hi, guys.
Stephanie [00:00:51]:
So it's a bit of a funny story. I'm gonna expose how disorganised I am in telling the truth here, but we are on a holiday, and I didn't get around to recording a podcast episode before I left. So packed my podcast mic along with my laptop with a view to recording an episode for you from our hotel in Bangkok. And lo and behold, unbeknownst to us, our hotel in Bangkok has a podcast recording studio, which is just extremely unlikely, but, very opportune. So we are sitting here in a fully fledged podcast recording studio in our hotel in Bangkok, and we're gonna be talking all about some misconceptions about avoided attachment. So as you would know, if you've been listening to the podcast for a while, it's really important to me to rebalance the scales, I suppose, insofar as, you know, understanding avoidant attachment and extending a level of curiosity and compassion to that experience. Obviously, most of my work is around anxious attachment, but I think that it would be fair to say so much of the content all over the Internet and everywhere else is often centered on the anxious attachment experience. And to the extent that it talks about avoidant attachment, it's usually with a view to either demonising or trying to change your avoidant partner so that you feel better about the relationship.
Stephanie [00:02:16]:
And if you're familiar with my philosophy, notwithstanding the fact that I'm definitely, you know, have learned more anxious and have struggled with anxious avoidant dynamics in my relationship. I don't think that that approach in fact, I know that that approach of just looking for someone to blame and looking to explain away all of the problems of your relationship via, you know, what's wrong with your partner and what you can do about that tends not to be very fruitful, and it tends to actually keep you really stuck in places that are very disempowering. So it's always important to me to give a little more context to avoid detachment, to invite people to pause and to get curious and to step outside the self centeredness. And I say that, you know, descriptively rather than critically. But I think when we're in fear or we're in stress, we are naturally self centered. All of us, we are going to be focused on our experiences. That's what we know so deeply. But to step outside that self centeredness and really get to know what's going on for our partners, for the people we're in relationship with rather than designating that as wrong and trying to change it as our way of creating safety for ourselves.
Stephanie [00:03:34]:
So so what we're gonna be talking about today, some common misconceptions about avoidant attachment, so that you can maybe have a little more understanding, and just more depth of awareness, which I think is always a beautiful thing to be cultivating in your relationship. Now before we dive into that, a quick announcement that healing anxious attachment, which many of you will know is my signature program, is coming back soon. So in a few weeks' time, we're gonna be relaunching what will be the 7th cohort of the course, which is pretty cool. There are already a few hundred people on the wait list, which is amazing to see. I'm always so honored and humbled by the interest in this program. And this next round will be a particularly special one because it'll be the last one that I'll be running before I, check out for maternity leave for a good few months at least. So I don't know when the next round of the program will be, likely sometime later in the year. But no current plans for that as I will be playing it by ear a little with a new baby.
Stephanie [00:04:36]:
So if you're someone who struggles with anxious attachment and you're interested in a program that's very comprehensive, that's been tried and tested by over 1500 people over the past 2 years, I would love for you to jump on the wait list via the link in the show notes or directly on my website, and doing so will guarantee you a spot in the program and also exclusive early bird discounts. Okay. So let's dive into this conversation around common misconceptions about avoiding And I should have said in the introduction, Joel is not just sitting here next to me for the fun of it. He's here to weigh in and offer the perspective of someone who has more avoidant patterns. And, you know, while I've said many times before, and I'll say again here, that it's not like every avoidant person is the same. So it's not like Joel Joel can speak to, you know, the inner workings of the avoidant mind in a very generic and universal sense. But I think it is helpful, and I know from feedback from previous episodes where Joel's been involved, that it is really helpful to hear it from the horse's mouth, so to speak, rather than just hearing it coming from me who is more an observer of that experience rather than in the driver's seat of it. So with that being said, the first misconception that we wanna talk about is that avoiding people have an aversion to relationships generally or don't want to be in relationships, that they are, you know, that they avoid relationships altogether.
Stephanie [00:06:12]:
I think that's a common one, I think, just because of the name avoidant. There's this sense of, like, avoidant people don't want to be in relationships, and I see that so much on, like, in comment sections, on Instagram, on YouTube. People say really blunt things like, well, well, if they don't wanna be in relationships, they should just go and live alone and die or something, you know, very kind of petulant and and ill thought through. But I think there is that sense of, like, well, if you don't wanna be in relationship, then why do you go around being in relationship? And I think that that just really misses what's happening when it comes to avoidant attachment. It's not so much an aversion to relationships. Right? And and many, I would say most people with avoidant patterns, remember we're talking about, like, up to 25% of the population here, maybe even more. Of course, most of those people seek out and are in relationships.
Stephanie[00:07:13]:
So it's really much more nuanced than just, oh, you don't like relationships. You don't like intimacy. You don't want that for yourself. It it's more that being in those situations can bring up a lot of stuff. And as it can for anxious people, it just tends to be different stuff and provoke different protective responses. But just because of the the life experience that people with avoidant attachment have had. It can mean that certain things about being in relationship can activate stress for them and can cause stress, and that stress is dealt within a variety of ways that kind of fall under this banner of what we call avoidant attachment.
Joel [00:08:00]:
Yeah. I think I'll input here for the avoidance. Yeah. It is a a misconception to say that avoidants don't wanna be in relationships. People who don't wanna be in relationships, by choice, aren't in relationships, but you find many avoidants in relationships. The difficulty there is generally around intimacy and getting close because the way that there's you know, I have seek security in this world is to spend time with myself, spend time to gather my thoughts, to regulate my emotions, and I find it really challenging doing that with someone else. And it's something that I've really had to work on. It doesn't mean I didn't wanna be in a relationship. It's just that I was having a very hard time being in a relationship
Joel [00:08:51]:
Because I was yet to develop that self awareness and develop the tools and and it really came down to the trust and having a loving partner, that wasn't just going to judge me from the surface judge me on the surface level. I think it's a really easy thing, and I can completely understand if, those who have been in relationships where it hasn't ended well and it you can you may come across some literature on attachment and just gonna make sweeping generalizations to a large part of the population, but it's it's not as simple as that. And on the other side, it's it's really the same with anxious attachment. You know, we don't wanna make sweeping generalizations for every individual. But I can say for sure that most people wanna be supported by other people, whether in a relationship, whether with family or friends. Some just find it more difficult.
Stephanie [00:09:57]:
Yeah. I think that, you know, ultimately and and the whole body of work around attachment is predicated on the notion that, like, we all have these fundamental attachment needs to be to love and be loved, to be cared for, you you know, to be seen, to be understood, to be validated, to feel like we belong. It's just that depending on the experiences that we've had and the patterns that we've developed, certain aspects of that can be harder to trust. And, you know, I think that it it is for avoidant folks. It's just like, I don't know how to simultaneously feel, and I know this is true for you, Joel. I don't know how to be that vulnerable with someone and and be that seen by them and still feel in control.
Joel [00:10:43]:
Yep.
Stephanie [00:10:44]:
And so I think that when those two things feel like they're competing, like, my sense of being in control of my own safety and, like, knowing how to take care of myself the way I always have, and also being connected to you. If I don't know how to hold those things together, often, safety will trump connection. Mhmm. And, you know, that is, again, true for all of us. So all of that to say, it's not an aversion to the idea of relationships. And and, of course, avoidant folks want all of that as much as anyone else does in most cases, it's just that it can bring up challenges for them as it can for the rest of us, but it just looks a little different. Okay. The next misconception about avoidant attachment is avoiding people only care about themselves. So this one could have sub bullets under it, which is, you know, avoiding people are selfish, avoiding people are narcissists, avoiding people are know, cold, callous, all of those labels that we often see being.
Joel [00:11:45]:
I read all the comments.
Stephanie [00:11:47]:
Yeah. We read the comments.
Joel [00:11:48]:
It hurts.
Stephanie [00:11:49]:
Yeah. It it is. It's not that's not really nice. Right? And, again, we can understand that if you've formed those views that you've probably been hurt, and that's real. But to then take that and extrapolate and, you know, make it mean something about people at a really fundamental essential level, I think, again, misses misses the truth and misses the nuance of, you know, people are in pain and people are, you know if if we wanna use the word selfish, again, I mentioned this in the last point, I think if we're gonna call someone selfish for the ways in which they protect themselves, we have to acknowledge that we too are selfish in the way that we protect ourselves. It's just if you happen to be more anxious in your attachment patterns, your agenda looks different, and it looks relationally focused.
Joel [00:12:45]:
More empathetic.
Stephanie [00:12:46]:
Yes. But it's we can be honest, and I, you know, put my hand up and can see this within myself that it's, you know, sometimes that doting self sacrifice, you know, overgiving, self abandoning thing is just coming from a place of, again, trying to create some semblance of safety or control for yourself. And, you know, that is with the strings attached of of, you know, what you need rather than, you know, giving without an agenda. So I think that, you know, we need to acknowledge that stress makes us all selfish. And when we are in relationship and we have insecure attachment patterns, there's generally a lot of stress in the system of that relationship. And so looking at someone who's more avoidant and labeling them selfish or uncaring because their mode of self protection is to pull back or, you know, pull away, you know, kind of go to their island. Again, I think it's just not capturing the full picture. And, you know, Joel, again, I can throw to you here. I know that you care very much.
Joel [00:14:01]:
Very deeply.
Stephanie [00:14:03]:
Yeah. And and that as with anyone, again, to be told that you don't care or that you're uncaring can feel like a deep injustice. There's such an incongruence between your internal experience and how it's being received, and that can lead you to shut down further. Right? Yeah. Because it's like, why why bother trying when I'm just like my efforts aren't landing here. I care so much, and yet I'm being told I'm uncaring.
Joel [00:14:27]:
Yeah. What it feels like is when I there's 2 ways I can take, if someone says, like, I don't care. It's like my knee jerk reaction is like, you have no no idea how much I care. Yeah. But you're not understanding how I express it or you just wanna see it in the way that you care for the world. And I think that's the trap that a lot of us get into. We have these unfair expectations of the world to mimic the way that we want to operate.
Stephanie [00:15:02]:
Yeah. If it were me, I would do this thing. So the fact that you're not doing that thing means you must feel differently to me.
Joel [00:15:08]:
Yeah. We have these unspoken contracts with the world. I care so deeply, to the point where I, and I'm working on it, is I foster a lot of guilt that I am not empathetic, I'm selfish, and this was probably the hardest thing about the decision to have kids is I fundamentally thought that I would be too selfish, and I would have these conversations over and over again with mates who happen to be fathers and, you know, fathers that are are much older than me. And a lot of the feedback I got was, if you think this much about it, you're gonna be okay. You care. And it it's just the expression, which might seem unfavorable to a lot of people, the way that avoidance show their care or or lack to be able to express their care and communicate it. But I'm not gonna talk for everyone here, but I think the majority of people care. The majority of people really wanna be cared for, I think we just have a really hard time communicating it and communicating intimacy, communicating our needs.
Stephanie [00:16:35]:
Yeah. And I think that, you know, with that anxious avoidant dynamic, we can acknowledge that oftentimes, I've spoken about this in different contexts, anxious folks all kind of ask for something, and then they might get it, but it's not enough because they're wanting their partner to fill a void inside of, like, I just need more reassurance, and I need to test, and I need to probe, kind of moving the goalposts a little because there is this really deep insecurity there that they're hoping their partner can somehow make go away. And so I think if we can step outside of that and go on to the other side and recognize that when you are putting in effort, but those efforts aren't being seen and all you're getting in response or, you know, the bulk of what you're getting in response is feedback saying still not enough, still not enough. I think that can be pretty disheartening. Yep. And
Joel [00:17:34]:
Will have the opposite effect.
Stephanie [00:17:38]:
Yeah. Why bother? Yeah. And so I think that that can really lead to disengagement and withdrawal in someone who's more avoidant. Whereas, again, it's a point of divergence between anxious and avoidant people. I think anxious people, it's like challenge accepted. I'll just try harder and harder and harder and harder and harder to get your validation, to get your approval. It's almost like there's no ceiling to that. Whereas avoidant people are, I think, more likely to sort of throw in the towel and say, why should I bother doing this? I'm not being appreciated for it. I'm not being seen for it. You're always upset with me. This isn't kind of this isn't worth it almost, because it seems to just completely lack any kind of efficacy. It's it's just, like, not effective. Okay. So the next one is of when people don't experience anxiety about their relationships. I think this is a really kind of funny one. Right? We think anxious attachment, they kind of have a monopoly on anxiety as an emotion, as an experience.
Stephanie [00:18:44]:
But the reality is avoidant attachment involves a lot of anxiety. Yeah. It just tends to be anxiety that swells around internally rather than anxiety that is acted out. And it kind of, you know, flows on nicely from the previous point around what you were saying, Joel, of, like, how much you can just, like, ruminate over things and and worry and think about things almost, I would say, more than I do, probably a lot more than I do. You know, the tendency to focus on potential worst case scenarios and all of the things that could go wrong, a lot of those hallmarks of anxiety are very much alive in in you. And, you know, to be fair, you are more in the the fearful avoidant or disorganized camp, which we know is high on both anxiety and avoidance. So that makes sense.
Joel [00:19:37]:
Yes. Good fun.
Stephanie [00:19:39]:
Keeps it interesting. But, yeah, I think to suggest that, like, avoidant attachment is somehow, like, devoid of anxiety as an emotion is, really, very much a misconception. And there is a lot of that, you know, worry and overthinking and, you know, worst case scenario kind of mentality. And that can be again, it's sort of like the same seed, but it sends you in different directions because I think for avoidant folks, it's like, oh, all of this paralyzing anxiety, I should just leave the relationship or, like, this must be a problem with the relationship, so I'll distance myself from that because then I'll get to distance myself from those feelings.
Stephanie [00:20:23]:
Whereas for more anxious people, it's like, I feel all this anxiety about my relationship. I have to change it or solve it so that I can get away from these feelings. If I can change you, then I won't feel anxious anymore. Yeah. Whereas for avoidant folks, it's like if I leave the relationship, I won't be anxious anymore. If I can
Joel [00:20:40]:
If I'm just by myself.
Stephanie [00:20:41]:
Yeah. Then I get to be away from these feelings.
Joel [00:20:44]:
Yeah. I think, yeah, I think it's a really it comes down to I feel like we really need to change the branding of attachment styles. I I prefer the original, you know, disorganized. It's a little bit more flattering than avoidant because avoidant has pretty pretty bad rap of a it's a it's a negative word. You know, we avoid things because we're in fear of them or scared of them, and I don't think that's necessarily the case all the time, with both dismissive and fearful avoidance. But, yes, we experience anxiety just like everyone else everyone else except for our secure friends.
Stephanie [00:21:30]:
I think probably they even still experience anxiety. It's just not quite to the same degree.
Joel [00:21:34]:
But, yeah, as Steph said, I'm more likely to I say, I'm more likely 100% of the time. I'm going to internalize it first. And it's just the way that I've been able to, I guess, operate during my life in this world is to try and to understand my place in it and and what is safe and what is not. And I've always been a a deep thinker and overthinking and and and rumination, something that I'm still working through. At the moment, I'm working through this, more of the anxiety stuff, with a a therapist at the moment. But, yeah, I definitely experience all the anxiety, and it particularly comes up, and for a lot of fearful avoidants, when our relationship is is at its hardest times and especially through separation, you'll notice there is actually a lot of, like, anxious attachment patterns in fearful avoidance during breakups. Like, we can both completely be in denial, and maybe that will last for a few weeks, and then we have, like, a strong emotional pull and and morning, that is really, really deep, and we really go through this fear of, you know, I'm never gonna meet someone like that again. And it took so much effort for me to open up to someone else. Like, I don't know if I can do that again. It is. We have we have deep anxieties, but it may not be expressed in the way that is either optimal or favorable to other people.
Stephanie [00:23:34]:
Yeah. I think that, my observation of that through being in relationship with you is like that when you are feeling threatened in some way, it tends to be a more avoidant response. But if there's any, like, insecurity or fear about the future of the relationship or anything like that, that tends to bring out more of the the anxiety that is more typical of anxious attachment patterns. So, there's definitely a full spectrum of experience there. I think it's just really a reminder that even though it can look different, and and will tend to be internalized rather than acted out in more typical anxious attachment fashion. That doesn't mean that the underlying anxieties aren't there. And, you know, I would say, as I would say to anxious people, that, like, yeah, anxiety happens when we care a lot about something. And so it kinda goes back to the the previous point, but like, yeah, when when we're invested in something, when something's important to us, then it can bring up a lot of fear and worry and, you know, wanting to derisk and worrying about the worst case scenario. All of those things, I think, go hand in hand. Okay. The last one that we wanna share, misconception about avoidant attachment, is avoidant people never change.
Joel [00:24:57]:
We don't.
Stephanie [00:24:59]:
That's it. No. That one's actually true. No. Just kidding. Yeah. I think, again, like, sweeping generalization, right, avoiding people never change. I think there is some truth in the fact that for some avoidant people, particularly those with more dismissive patterns, there can be a pretty strong resistance to doing the work, so to speak, particularly in the manner that people with more anxious patterns might like to do it.
Stephanie [00:25:26]:
For example, listening to podcasts like this or doing a course or reading a book. You know, I, I had someone ask me on Instagram the other day about, you know, I'm doing all of this reading and that, and my partner's not doing any, and it's so unfair, and why should I be the one doing it all? And I I think it's a very common sentiment, and it's a common frustration. But at the same time, I think we have to recognize, as I've spoken about before, that, the work, so to speak, looks different for everyone. We can't reasonably impose our own, expectations of what that has to look like in someone else's process, and that will very reliably elicit more resistance and defensiveness in them. But in any event, to suggest that someone will never change, I kind of have a problem with that more broadly when people say, like, oh, people never change. You know? Like, I just that's so fundamentally at odds with my personal experience of myself and so many other people, I think we are all changing all the time.
Joel [00:26:38]:
Yeah.
Stephanie [00:26:39]:
But I think when you're saying like, oh, well, these people are never gonna change or is my partner gonna change? I think we have to get a little bit more curious about, like, is my partner like, can I accept my partner as they are while also wanting to be in a relational environment of growth and, you know, continued investment in ourselves and each other? Mhmm. But I think that's a very different proposition to, like, requiring someone to change as some sort of condition of being in the relationship, which, you know,tends not to work terribly well.
Joel [00:27:17]:
It's you have to hold you must have to hold 2 opposing ideas. Something's gotta change here, but also this person who's in front of me, I love. And those two things can coexist. Yeah. I find it also a little bit irritating, when I do hear this because it makes me assume that someone isn't changing at your pace, at your rate. And I can guarantee most people all the time are changing and they're learning, and it's we can't force feed people audiobooks or books. We can't force people to sit down and, quote, unquote, do the work. But if you're having honest conversations, if you really care for this person and you care about the relationship, I think it will change over time.
Stephanie [00:28:25]:
Yeah. I think it's it's all about and, you know, I talk about this so much. It's like change the environment of your relationship rather than trying to change your partner. And if you are doing your part to contribute to an overall relational environment that is characterized by love and care and support and acceptance, appreciation, generosity, all of the things that you want your relationship to be about. Just tend to the environment and trust it. Like things will grow better in a healthier environment rather than staying, swirling around in a really dysfunctional environment and wondering why nothing's growing there. It's like, really ask yourself, are the conditions that I am maybe not single handedly creating, but contributing to or perpetuating. Are those like conducive to growth? Do they inspire growth? Or is it like a high stress, high blame, you know, dysfunctional, disconnected relational landscape? And you know, can I really be surprised that growth isn't happening here? So I, I think it is really just about like, you know, people do change and grow Yeah and will continue.
Joel [00:29:45]:
Yeah. You've you've absolutely should have changed quite a bit. I I reflect on this a lot because, you know, as we're coming up to having a child, it's made me reflect really on how fast life comes at you and, you know, sudden sudden news or or life changes can really propel you into a different direction so quickly. And over reflecting in the last 3 to 4 years, I'm like, oh, I don't even if I was being honest with myself and I I look back on little entries or journal entries, and they might just be a few words or or a couple of lines, I'm like, oh, okay. I'm I'm I'm changing. And I like to look back, and I wanna my goal is to just laugh at myself and just or what like we were talking about today, just look back and just realize, like, how young you were. Like, how young was I a year ago? Like, how silly was I?
Stephanie [00:30:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's true. I think, you know, in the course of our relationship past couple of years, we've both changed and grown.
Joel [00:30:48]:
And we've had to work on it.
Stephanie [00:30:49]:
Yeah. We've had to work on it a lot. So all of that to say, change is is always possible. I guess it's just, you know, if it's going to be like really inspired to grow, then we're going to be growing in the same direction, the way that's aligned. You really do need to tend to those environmental factors, tend to the conditions, tend to the climate of your relationship, and trust that whatever growth needs to happen will happen organically on those foundations, rather than like kind of having your hands around someone's neck or, you know, shaking them violently saying, why won't you change to suit me, because you're causing me pain at the moment? I don't think that that's that's tends not to be a very effective strategy. So those were some common misconceptions about avoidant attachment. I might just quickly recap that because, gosh, we ramble on for a bit there. So the first one was avoiding people having aversion to relationships.
Stephanie [00:31:47]:
They don't want to be in relationships. Second one was avoiding people only care about themselves or selfish, narcissistic, all of those labels that we can slap on. The third was avoiding people don't experience anxiety about their relationships. And the 4th was that avoiding people never change or can't change. So I hope that that's been helpful. I hope it's given you a new perspective on some of those points, given you some insights about things that you maybe didn't quite appreciate or some some nuances there. And as we said at the start, if you are someone who is more anxious and you're wanting to work on that through the support of my program, definitely check out Healing Anxious Attachment, the wait list, which you can join via my website. I suppose I should probably add at the end as well given what we were talking about today and the fact that you're here, Joel.
Stephanie [00:32:38]:
We also have a couples course called Secure Together, which we created last year. So Joel is my co coach, I suppose, in that one and presents the avoidant side of the the street. And that's a really great course for for anxious avoidant couples to work through together, or if you're in a relationship and you wanna work through it just to understand your relationship and your partner better. And we've had some really beautiful feedback about that, particularly, you know, Joel's presence there and how for a lot of people's partners who were more avoidant that that really created a lot of safety for them and allowed them to feel, like, a lot less intimidated, I suppose, about the whole idea of sitting down and doing a couple's course, which we know might not be the most appealing invitation for some folks who do lean more avoidant. So you can also check out Secure Together if, you're in a relationship and wanting to work on some of the things we've talked about today. And, there's a discount code to save $200. So if you insert the code secure, you can save $200 on that course. Okay.
Stephanie [00:33:43]:
That's all from us today. We are signing off from Bangkok, and look forward to seeing you again next time. Thanks, guys.
Joel [00:33:50]:
Bye, guys.
Stephanie [00:33:53]:
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you wanna go deeper on all things attachment, love, and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a 5 star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here, and I hope to see you again soon.
Keywords from Podcast Episode
accepting your partner, relationship growth, supportive environment, organic change, personal growth, impending parenthood, misconceptions about avoidant attachment, Healing Anxious Attachment program, Secure Together discount code, attachment styles, self-awareness in relationships, trust in relationships, fundamental attachment needs, vulnerability and control, selfishness in avoidant attachment, uncaring avoidant misconception, expressing care in relationships, anxious-avoidant dynamic, feeling unappreciated, validation and approval, withdraw in relationships, internal anxiety, overthinking in attachment, worst-case scenario mentality, fearful avoidant attachment, anxious attachment patterns, resistance to change, constant individual change, On Attachment podcast, intimacy and closeness struggles.
#132 Cultivating Secure Love with Julie Menanno (@thesecurerelationship)
In today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Julie Menanno. Julie is a couples therapist, best known for her hugely popular instagram account @thesecurerelationship where she offers nuanced and insightful takes on attachment dynamics and how couples can overcome negative cycles to build secure relationships. She has just released her first book, Secure Love, which offers couples a roadmap for building thriving relationships that last.
In today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Julie Menanno. Julie is a couples therapist, best known for her hugely popular instagram account @thesecurerelationship where she offers nuanced and insightful takes on attachment dynamics and how couples can overcome negative cycles to build secure relationships. She has just released her first book, Secure Love, which offers couples a roadmap for building thriving relationships that last.
Our conversation covers a lot of ground, including:
A deeper look at the fear of abandonment in anxious attachment
Key challenges of avoidant attachment
Negative cycles in anxious-avoidant relationships
What to do when one partner doesn't want to go to therapy
The importance of validating your partner's emotions (even if you disagree with their position)
Julie's tips (as a mum of 6!) for raising secure kids
To connect with Julie Menanno:
Follow Julie on Instagram @thesecurerelationship
Questions for Discussion & Reflection
Reflect on your current or past relationships. Can you identify moments where you felt an emotional safety net was either present or lacking? How did this impact your communication and connection with your partner?
Consider the concept of first and second order change discussed by Julie. Have there been times in your relationship where consistent effort to change was clear, but a shift in the environmental context was necessary to see growth? How did you navigate this, or how might you approach it in the future?
When encountering triggers within your relationship, do you tend to react immediately, or do you take a moment to pause and observe your reactions? Think about a recent situation and how your response may have influenced the outcome.
Growing up, what was the attitude towards conflict and emotions in your household? In what ways do you see this shaping your approach to handling tension and disagreements in your adult relationships?
Julie highlighted the importance of validating each partner's concerns in a relationship. Recall a time when you felt your concerns were fully acknowledged by your partner. How did it affect your feelings and the resolution of the issue?
Upon facing adversity and conflicts in your relationships, do you notice a drive to immediately repair and resolve issues, or do you recognize the potential value in the struggle? How might embracing the messiness contribute to relationship growth?
Think about the last big fight you had in a relationship. In what ways did it provide an opportunity for growth and a deeper understanding of your fears and vulnerabilities? What lessons did you take away from the experience?
Reflect on Julie’s encouragement to recognise and address feelings during everyday activities. How might integrating this practice into your daily routine enhance your overall emotional wellbeing and the quality of your relationships?
Recall a time when you were navigating anxiety or big emotions. How did you handle that moment, and what strategies did you use to trust in your capacity to manage those feelings effectively?
Parenting styles can greatly influence our attachment patterns. Reflect on Julie's parenting approach after finding traditional advice lacking. How has the upbringing you experienced influenced your perception of emotional safety and attachment in your own parenting or in your intimate relationships?
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Check out my couples course, Secure Together (& save $200 with the code SECURE)
Save $150 on my Higher Love break-up course with the code PHOENIX
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Rigg [00:00:04]:
For today's episode, I am so excited to be joined by Julie Manano, who many of you will know as the brains and the heart behind the hugely popular Instagram account, the secure relationship. Julie is a couple's therapist and she's just published her first book, Secure Love, which is now out and available. Julie is such an incredible source of wisdom on all things attachment and by far my favourite content creator in this area. So I was so, so delighted to have her on the show and I'm really looking forward to sharing this conversation with you, which is all about how couples can use an understanding of themselves and attachment and these dynamics to overcome the cycles that they get stuck in and how you can really start building bridges towards a more secure love with one another. So I have no doubt that this conversation will be hugely helpful for so many of you and I'm really looking forward to sharing it with you.
Stephanie Rigg [00:01:34]:
Julie, welcome. It's so great to have you.
Julie Menanno [00:01:37]:
Hi, Stephanie. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Stephanie Rigg [00:01:41]:
So I absolutely want to talk about your new book, which I'm very excited to receive and read when it comes out. But before we jump into that, I would really love. I'm sure a lot of people listening follow you online, your account, and appreciate your content as much as I do. Something that I really value in your work is that you do such a great job at articulating the fears and the vulnerabilities that sit underneath the attachment styles and the behaviours that we see outwardly, which it's easy to be critical of or judgmental of some of the ways that these fears and vulnerabilities manifest outwardly, particularly when we're in relationship with someone and we're on either side of that.
Julie Menanno [00:02:34]:
Oh, yeah, so hard.
Stephanie Rigg [00:02:37]:
Maybe you could share for people. I mean, I think most people listening will be familiar with each of the attachment styles, but kind of going a layer deeper and sharing. What are some of those deeper fears, which oftentimes I think one of the beauties of your content is some of the things you put words to are things that people might not necessarily be consciously aware of very much in terms of their own. What is driving their behaviour so maybe you could just give a little bit of a feel for what sits underneath a lot of those behaviours for each of the insecure attachment styles.
Julie Menanno [00:03:13]:
Well, one thing that comes to mind is when we talk about anxious attachment, most people are kind of familiar with the idea that anxious attachment comes from this fear of abandonment. And when we hear the word abandonment, our minds just sort of go right to physical abandonment. Right. Which can be a real fear for someone with an anxious attachment, just that physical distance and not having lots of contact with their partner through the phone or through text or. However, because that physical proximity helps them feel safe. Like, if you're right there in front of me, I have this sense of safety in my body that you're not gone. Right. But there are also a lot of people with anxious attachment who actually don't really mind not being physically with their partner all the time.
Julie Menanno [00:04:06]:
And what they actually fear is emotional abandonment, which is probably a bigger piece of the puzzle for a lot of people, which is emotional abandonment is feeling emotionally validated, getting messages that your emotions are too much, or your emotions are unreasonable, or your emotions are illogical, or your emotions don't matter to me, which is huge. So what's really going to get someone with anxious attachment triggered is less. Well, I don't want to say less. For some people, we're going to see all of these posts about if they don't text back, things like that. Right. But there's this other piece of it where you hear from your partner, you're just making things up, or you know what? You need to deal with your feelings on your own, or you're seeing it all wrong, or you're just being dramatic. And so that's going to really trigger the heart of someone with an anxious attachment profoundly because of growing up in environments where those were the repeated messages, and that is emotional abandonment. And if you look at things like borderline personality disorder, which is this really extreme version of what I consider attachment insecurity, the only thing that's really common in studies to the childhood environment of people who develop borderline personality disorder, what would you think it would be? Serious abuse, something like this. But it's emotional invalidation. Just an environment of emotional invalidation is enough to create major problems.
Stephanie Rigg [00:06:01]:
Yeah, I love that you talk about emotional abandonment. It's something that I've spoken to before and I think that I can relate to it. Like, I lean more anxious and having that fear of, like, are you going to be there when I need you? Even though you're physically here, this sense of am I going to be left alone with these big feelings? Right. And I think that can be really terrifying. And when we see expressions of that various cycles in anxious avoidant dynamics, where you might have someone on the other side who goes the other way and withdraws or pulls away or becomes very defensive, then having that sense of I'm scrambling to try and get engagement from you. And even in this moment when my emotions are getting really big and I'm visibly distressed for you to still be kind of denying me what I need, that can feel like fuel on the fire. Right. It's no secret that I need you in this moment. So surely if you loved me, you would be responding to me the way I want you to respond. And I think, as you say, that can be really viscerally terrifying distressing for someone with more anxious attachment.
Julie Menanno [00:07:20]:
Definitely. And then we have this other side, which is the person who's not showing up. Right. And so what does it look like? It looks like they don't care. They're disengaged. It's irrelevant. I'm irrelevant to them. But really what's happening is they're getting overwhelmed with I don't know what to do. I never learned how to help myself in these emotionally hard places, so I really don't know how to help a partner. And the way that I did learn to help myself was to shove my feelings away, just make them go away or go into this fix it place in my brain. And so what I know to do to help you is what I've learned to do to help me. And really not recognising the impact of, well, you should just see it differently, or let's just do whatever I have to do to make these big emotions go away that I don't know how to deal with. And then eventually they get overwhelmed to the point that none of my strategies are working here, which doesn't make sense because they work with me.
Stephanie Rigg [00:08:27]:
Everything I say or don't say makes this worse. Right? Yes, exactly.
Julie Menanno [00:08:33]:
So then they shut down. It's like, where does this start? A chicken or the egg? It doesn't start anywhere, it just is as far as way they're interacting with each other.
Stephanie Rigg [00:08:46]:
Yeah. And it's something that I take very seriously in my work is not kind of creating a hierarchy of these different expressions and not, I think, particularly avoidant attachment gets a really bad rap in a lot of online content. And it's something that I'm really quite passionate about balancing that and giving people more kind of inroads into understanding that in a compassionate way and recognising everything that you just articulated makes perfect sense. Right. In the environment in which it sprung from, that's a really adaptive response.
Julie Menanno [00:09:31]:
It really is empowering. I think for somewhere along the line I'm not exactly sure where, but anxious partners got this idea that they have these needs, the avoidance can't show up for these needs and so it must be the avoidance that's the problem. But how disempowering is that? Right? To think that you really can't do anything, that you're just kind of a victim to what this other person is doing. So I love that you said you balance this out because it's so important because when anxious partners really start to learn there's a lot of work they can be doing to shift the environment, I think a much more empowering message.
Stephanie Rigg [00:10:11]:
I agree. I think that as much as it might be a hard pill to swallow for people to recognise their part in the dynamic and what they need to take responsibility for, I think that it's ultimately much more empowering place to be than kind of throwing your hands up and saying well, you just don't meet my needs or you always do this or I'm doing all the work and you're the roadblock. And I think coupled with the tendency for anxious folks to persist in light of all of those criticisms or judgments it's not like they're reaching a decision of this isn't working for me and walking away. It's like, this isn't working for me, but I'm going to sit here and protest about it.
Julie Menanno [00:10:53]:
Exactly. I'm going to keep watering the plant with gasoline.
Stephanie Rigg [00:10:56]:
Yeah, exactly. And then feeling really frustrated and overwhelmed. Does this keep happening to me?
Julie Menanno [00:11:03]:
She can water the plant with gasoline?
Stephanie Rigg [00:11:05]:
Yeah, absolutely. So maybe we can pivot to talking about your book secure love, which is probably by the time this episode comes out, will be out in the world. So anyone listening, please go ahead and order a copy. If you haven't already. Tell us about the book. What's kind of the premise? What do you take people through?
Julie Menanno [00:11:25]:
Well, I wrote it for a lot of different reasons and every time I'm interviewed I give another different reason. Whatever comes to mind. But I have seen a lot of success in doing the type of work that I do with couples, working with attachment theory and my private practise and when I started my Instagram account, which is where I started putting out information, where I was starting from is, look, there are a lot of people out there who just don't have access to couples therapy and don't have access to quality couples therapy. And how can I kind of help people that are in that position in the best way possible through social media platform and kind of tie attachment theory altogether? Like, let's put it into context. You have an anxious attachment, you get your partner has an avoidant attachment. Now, how does it show up between the two of you? And more importantly, how is it creating these negative communication cycles, which is basically the anxious attachment partner being anxious and the avoidant attachment partner being avoidant? And now they're reinforcing all of these insecurities. They're speaking in a way that can go from kind of a normal conversation into a big fight and they're not getting problem solved. Those kinds of negative cycles block actual resolution to our talk about finances or our talk about parenting or sex or politics or whatever it is.
Julie Menanno [00:12:57]:
And in the process, they're also hurting each other emotionally and reinforcing the already insecure attachment. So I'm kind of leading with, hey, here's attachment theory. Here's a very detailed description of anxious attachment, the childhood environment, how it looks in adulthood, here's how it shows up in these negative cycles. Here's what you can do to interrupt them when they happen, here's what you can do to prevent them, here's what you can do to repair them. And then just lots of practical skills, lots of actual words, scripts, if you don't have the words and you haven't learned these words yet, it's just a concept. And it can be really hard for people to put concepts into actions, especially in these moments when they're kind of like on the spot and you got to say it the right way. And then some couples are blocked by attachment injuries, which is something I have to work within my practise too, which is kind of like these added layers of attachment wounds, major breaches of trust. Moments when you really needed your partner to show up for you and they weren't there.
Julie Menanno [00:14:10]:
And a lot of times these old wounds are blocking their ability to even put New practises into place, put new communication into place, because there's all this resentment and mistrust built up. So then I'm going to kind of say, hey, here are some ideas, here are the way that healing conversations go. Here's what a healing conversation looks like. Now that you've kind of learned to do that outside of these negative cycles. Let's see if we can start healing some of this, which is only going to make the work easier, then just goes into just different other considerations, like mental illness, sex, substance abuse, anything that's kind of layers to relationships that are more than standard fighting about money. And then I have a whole chapter of scripts. Just, you need to bring up a hard topic to your partner. Here are some things to say.
Julie Menanno [00:15:08]:
Your partner doesn't want to go to therapy. Here are some things to say and just multiple examples just to give people the words. And it's not just the words, we need to make words our own. But I also break down the phrases into elements, which is, this is why I validated at the beginning of this sentence, this is why I ended it in this way. So if you're not wanting to use my words, and sometimes they aren't even my words, they're just as neutral as I can be for people who are reading the book that all speak from in different ways, different cultures, it's just like, well, let's just help you integrate the elements here.
Stephanie Rigg [00:15:50]:
Yeah, and I'm sure that's immensely helpful for people who, as you say, just don't have that reference point. Maybe they grew up in a family system where things weren't talked about or they weren't talked about in a productive way, and you've just not had that relational environment either directly or you've never had it modelled. So I think that having those scripts can be so helpful. Something that comes up for me, as you say, that is, I hear from a lot of people with more anxious patterns who very much want the scripts. And something that I'm always minded to add in as a caveat is here's a script and you kind of have to surrender a little to the messiness of being in relationship. And I think that there can be this sense of if I say the perfect thing in the perfect way, then I'll get the outcome that I want. And if I do my part, then you have to do your part, you have to respond in the way that I want you to. And if you don't, then I'll go straight back into, well, you're. The problem is that something that you.
Julie Menanno [00:16:57]:
See, I do address this pretty extensively in the book, which is this change really does need to come from your heart. If it's coming from a place of, well, I'm only doing this because I really want to control what you're going to do, then it's really not change at all. So we really have to shift that heart place, which is why I put the scripts at the end of the book, not the beginning.
Stephanie Rigg [00:17:20]:
Yeah, I think it is. It's funny it can almost be like a covert extension of the cycle when it is.
Julie Menanno [00:17:29]:
That's perfectly worded.
Stephanie Rigg [00:17:34]:
Rather than shifting it, there can be ways that that cycle can come back in. And I think that that is a really challenging edge for people. Something that I still notice come up and I have to keep tabs on is that story of like, one person trying extending the olive branch, and then if they still get some sort of defensiveness or their partner doesn't immediately become a different person and respond totally differently, then it can spiral back. What would you say to people in that, like, kind of realistic expectations around how this change happens?
Julie Menanno [00:18:13]:
Well, I do address, this is another topic I do address extensively in the book, which is we're looking at the big picture here. We're looking for the end. This is a long game. When you start this work, there really are no guarantees that you can put the right term coin into the vending machine and push the button and you're going to get the bag of chips. Right. We have to look at it. The mindset has to be one. I really want to be the person.
Julie Menanno [00:18:44]:
I want to be in the world, right. I want to be a person who can communicate myself in the healthiest way possible, can kind of regulate my emotions before I deliver my messages. And if you look at it that way, you can't lose, right? Because every time you try something new that's going to help you grow as a person, that's a win, even if your partner doesn't respond in the exact way that you would like. Now, of course, we all really need and want for the relationship to be close, for our partner to be able to respond openly and positively to our shifts. But in most cases, that's not going to happen right away. It's a matter of environmental shift. Second order change. So first order change is I'm just going to start delivering my messages in a new way.
Julie Menanno [00:19:40]:
Second order change is when the environment starts to become new and you have to do a lot of consistent, repetitive first order change before second order change starts to become a natural way of being for both partners. And most of the couples out there that are working, they aren't necessarily working parallel to each other, growing at the exact same rate. So your job as a partner isn't to kind of make your partner grow. You want your partner to grow. You crave your partner's growth. You need your partner's growth for closeness in the relationship. But your real job is to do your part to clean up the environment. And when we have clean environments, and if one partner can start kind of getting the ball rolling on that process and putting emotional safety into the relationship even when the other partner isn't able to.
Julie Menanno [00:20:38]:
Right. Then people are their best selves when they feel safe. People start to reflect when they feel safe. So if your partner is going. I refuse to go to couples therapy. Couples therapy is for people who are about to get divorced. The typical anxious response to that is, what? You don't care about the relationship? I'm the only one doing the work here. Right.
Julie Menanno [00:20:59]:
Well, that's not really safe because it's not really taking into account the other partner's very legitimate concerns. If the other partner has this idea that if we go to couples therapy, we're going to end up getting divorced. Because I've have numerous examples of people in my life who are divorced who went to couples therapy. So my nervous system is kind of wired around the idea that this wasn't safe. That needs to be held and validated, right? Yes. The ultimate goal is to get the help. I want that for the couple as much as the anxious partner. But that avoidant partner really needs space to hear.
Julie Menanno [00:21:41]:
You know what? That makes sense to me. It really does. I mean, I believe that we should go to couples therapy. We're in a bad spot. We can't seem to get out of it on our own. But at the same time, if you have seen multiple people go to couples therapy and end up getting divorced, of course you don't want to go down that road. That's a threat to you. And I really do get that.
Julie Menanno [00:22:03]:
And then maybe some space later to kind of insert your opinion that is going to lead that avoidant partner into self reflect. There's a much better chance it's going to lead them into self reflection more than just pushing their needs to the side. And then what do people do? They usually double down.
Stephanie Rigg [00:22:23]:
Yeah, that's a lot. Sorry. I think that. No, it's really important, and it's something that I was going to ask you about, like this idea of almost invariably there's one partner who's more proactive and wants to do the work and has certain meanings associated with that. And I think for more anxious people, it's like, because I care about our relationship, it's very important to get ahead of all of the problems. It'd be plugging all of even the tiniest little leaky hole in the boat. Let's talk about it and make a plan and do it all the time. Right.
Stephanie Rigg [00:22:56]:
Process for more avoidant partners, like doing the work can have a very different meaning and association. And it can feel like there's always something wrong, there's always something wrong, and you're always unhappy with me, and we deal with that thing and there's another thing and that can kind of chip away at their sense of self, their sense of like, am I doing a good job as your partner? And when there's just really different conceptions of what it means to do this kind of work in a relationship, what it means about you as individuals, what it means about your connection, then I think when we project what it means for us onto them and go, well, it's important to me to do this work because I care about our relationship so much and you don't want to do it, so you mustn't care about our relationship, then we cause ourselves a lot of pain, right? Whereas I think when we can, and it's so much easier said than done in those moments of hurt and when we're so genuinely invested in a solution that we believe is the right one, but validating someone's resistance or defensiveness and getting curious about it and going, okay, what must this be about for you? What might be underneath your resistance? And how can I feel into that in a way that I can try and understand it rather than just making you wrong for it? Because I think, as you say, it's like if I make you wrong for it, is that going to open you or close you? It's going to close you, and that's going to get me again, we don't want to be always acting from a place of getting what we want from someone. But I think you can also look at that and go, what's the natural consequence of me blaming and shaming you for the way that you genuinely feel about this thing? That's a really big issue. I think someone doubling down, as you say, and digging their heels in, that's a really understandable, natural consequence of feeling like you're under attack. And I can also imagine you as a couple's therapist that a lot of people with more avoidant patterns would have this fear of, like, you're going to kind of drag me to the principal's office and sit me down and have someone just bolster your side of the argument. So I'm going to be under attack on multiple fronts.
Julie Menanno [00:25:23]:
That is so true. And I could have used that as an example, and I definitely use that in the book, too, which is their avoidant partners or anybody who doesn't want to go to therapy, they have really good reasons for not wanting to go it doesn't mean at the end of the day, sometimes the conversation at some point might need to get to look, this relationship is in a really bad spot. It's not working for me and we're either going to have to go or I don't know what, but kind of setting a little bit more of a firmer boundary around it. But we need to just lead with just figuring out and validating your perspective because it makes sense on some level. Even if it's. I don't agree. I don't agree with your opinion. The emotions behind that opinion are always valid. And to your point, when you're approaching it in that way, you are actually working on the relationship.
Stephanie Rigg [00:26:24]:
Yeah. And I think that being able to have that conversation and say I understand why this feels, might feel a certain way for you. For me, I've seen you reference this before and I talk about it as well. It's like shifting into that. This is a problem that we are facing together. Right. The things that exist in our relationship feel bigger than our ability to solve them at the moment. And clearly what we're doing isn't working and it's tiring and it's exhausting speaking to some of those what are likely to be shared experiences of the problem.
Stephanie Rigg [00:27:08]:
This really sucks. I hate feeling disconnected from you all the time. I hate feeling like we're always at each other's throats and I just don't know what to do anymore because it feels like the things we're trying aren't working. And I think that shifting into that immediately just brings the temperature down a bit.
Julie Menanno [00:27:25]:
It really does, like you said, opens people up. And I'm in the business of behaviour change, but I'm in the business of getting to that behaviour change with open hearts. And that comes from communicating in a healthy way. There's no way around it.
Stephanie Rigg [00:27:45]:
Yeah, I think, as you say, it's about creating safety and I think we have to really have that at front of mind at all points in relationship is the thing that I'm about to do. All of my default modes of being in relationship is that likely to contribute to or detract from the safety of the person that I'm in relationship with or the broader environment and culture of our relationship. And I think when we ask ourselves that and kind of pause and cheque in so many of the things that we do on autopilot, if we have more insecure patterns, wouldn't pass that test. They're about our safety, but from a very survival driven place that's probably not well suited to the kind of relationship that we really desire and are trying to build.
Julie Menanno [00:28:36]:
Absolutely, yes. It's actually blocking that relationship that you're longing for.
Stephanie Rigg [00:28:42]:
Yeah. So something that I'm curious about is how much of this work do you think in terms of insecure attachment and repairing and moving towards a more secure relationship? Is that work that you think people can do solely in a relational context, or is it doing your own work and doing it relationally? Is it sort of just whatever presents itself to you is an opportunity to do that work?
Julie Menanno [00:29:12]:
I think so. I think that probably the most effective way to look at it is every interaction with a person. It doesn't really matter if it's the clerk at the market or your partner. Every interaction has the potential to trigger you. Right. And it's your triggers. That's where the work lies, is when you're triggered. And ultimately the work is when you're triggered.
Julie Menanno [00:29:41]:
What are you going to do from that point? Are you going to do something? Are you going to snap at the clerk at the market and then feel bad about yourself for the rest of the day? Are you going to snap at the clerk in the market and then forgive yourself and help yourself make sense of that and think about what you may have done differently? Are you going to take that moment when the clerk snaps at you and step inside and take a moment to go, what's going on with me? Okay, I'm feeling kind of disrespected right now, but I'm going to choose to not show up in a way that I don't want to be in the world. And so if we just take that into the relationship, I mean, every interaction gives you the opportunity to grow. Every interaction. But you don't need to be in a romantic relationship to examine your triggers. We have relationships with family members. We have relationships with friends. I do think it's important to have someone in your life that's a secure attachment for you, whether that's a therapist or someone that you meet at an Al Anon group or a friend who is dependable and can be there for you in kind of a good enough way. When we get that dependability and that support, that emotional support, it's co regulating to our nervous systems, and it does help us grow as a person. Right. But I think it's like you said, you're taking every opportunity to grow and to start doing things differently with your feelings.
Stephanie Rigg [00:31:19]:
Yeah. And a lot of it is really kind of mundane and unglamorous. Right. I think that people expect healing to be this big, dramatic moment of epiphany. But as you say, it's just like chipping away. It's like putting a coin in the jar a day at a time.
Julie Menanno [00:31:38]:
I go on walks with my dog and I start noticing these feelings of, like, I just want this. Normally, I love walking, but sometimes I'll think, I just want to get all this stuff done. I wish this walk was over. And that's an opportunity for me to cheque in and say, what's going on right now? That this sense of urgency is getting in my way of enjoying this walk, enjoying this time out here and being present in nature. And that can help me sort of reground myself. And now the walk becomes this more pleasurable experience, instead of just getting in the way of my compulsive need to work. So how does that show up in my relationship? Well, I have just taken that moment to practise getting into my body, finding that sense of urgency that kind of shows up in my chest, paying attention to that, soothing it, and then kind of being able to go into a different place in my heart where I'm more present. So the next time my husband triggers me, I have had that practise going into my body like that.
Julie Menanno [00:32:45]:
And now, because I've practised that in these other parts of life, it's easier for me to step back and go, all right, what's going on? What about what he said is kind of stirring me up inside? And how can I kind of ground myself and get more present and show up in the healthiest way possible? That's not going to lead us down this rabbit hole of a negative cycle.
Stephanie Rigg [00:33:06]:
Yeah, I love that you share that. I think having that capacity to pause, and it is such a practise just to pause and go, how interesting that this thing is stirring this response in me. And I think as soon as we do that, we sort of rise above it and we create that distance that allows us to observe it, and then maybe gently question it, and it just feels less all consuming and true. And I think when it feels less all consuming and true, then we're not so propelled to just act from that place, which so often, as you say, is this kind of heightened, dysregulated place of I have to do something or something dissociative. But it's just like I lose the ability to kind of bring myself back when I can't see what's happening. And so whether it's like walking the dog or waking up in the morning and noticing some anxiety, being able to turn towards that with a level of, like, interesting. I'm feeling anxious today. What might that be about for me, and what do I need? How can I support myself to feel a little bit more grounded or a little safer in my body or whatever it might be? I think that process is so repairing in our own self relationship. Right. It's like, oh, I can tend to myself in those uncomfortable moments or those big moments.
Julie Menanno [00:34:36]:
Even when what's going on around me might not be perfect, I'm still able to stay with myself, and I think this is important too. And you kind of touched on this earlier, which is, these are subtle shifts. Right. My walk isn't going from, oh, my gosh, I just want to get home to, oh, Zen. This is such a glorious walk. It's just going into this step of a little bit more present. And I think sometimes people do this work and they kind of expect to go from one extreme to the other, and we're really not. We're just trying to feel better. Whatever better looks like it isn't this glamorous big shift. Sometimes it's just more subtle.
Stephanie Rigg [00:35:22]:
Healed.
Julie Menanno [00:35:23]:
Yes.
Stephanie Rigg [00:35:23]:
Congratulations. Yeah, I think that's true. Such a big part of it is, like, changing the way we relate to ourselves and our feelings as well. I work mostly with anxiously attached people, and it's like, on the other side of this work. Does that mean I won't experience anxiety anymore in my relationship? It's like, sadly not. That's a human thing. But I think just, like, having a level of openness to the full spectrum of experience and the messiness of being human and being in relationships. And I think really critically, like, trusting in our capacity to hold ourselves through that and to navigate whatever that might look like rather than fearing the big emotions because we don't trust ourselves to experience them and we think, oh, no, if that happens, I won't be okay. And so I have to just frantically try and prevent any of those, and.
Julie Menanno [00:36:23]:
Then it's just such an exhausting way to live.
Stephanie Rigg [00:36:25]:
Yeah, absolutely. And it's kind of ironically, your whole life becomes about the thing you don't want to happen. Right. It takes up so much bandwidth.
Julie Menanno [00:36:36]:
It does. And then you've created the self fulfilling prophecy because you're having a hard time trusting your future self to handle when things don't go well. And if we can do nothing else in our line of work, it's helping people develop that trust. I can learn to handle my own feelings.
Stephanie Rigg [00:36:58]:
Yeah. And just kind of surrendering to the uncertainty of it. All right. Even secure healthy relationships are going to have hard times and they're going to have bumps in the road. And I think having this very idealistic perception of if I can again, control for all of these things and I'm going to eliminate, totally derisk my relationship to the point where I won't have to ever feel hurt or disappointed or any of those things, I won't ever have trust broken. And that's the bar that we're setting, I think, again, is unrealistic and it's really setting ourselves up to fail.
Julie Menanno [00:37:41]:
We are. And the growth lies in the ruptures. Right. I would never want couples to not have ruptures because that's how they learn to kind of take it to that next step. Maybe this is a topic that we haven't been addressing and so now it's kind of overwhelming our coping mechanisms and we kind of got lost in that negative cycle not being our best selves. Well, coming back together in that repair process opens up space for the vulnerability that was tapped into that might be surrounding this hard topic, deeper layers of our fears and who we are. And it provides opportunity to bond and become stronger.
Stephanie Rigg [00:38:29]:
Yeah, absolutely.
Julie Menanno [00:38:31]:
When I see couples, I see these patterns and they're going along and their relationship is getting better and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere they're feeling so confident and out of nowhere they have this big fight. And almost always, once we work through whatever that big fight was, there's a big growth spurt.
Stephanie Rigg [00:38:53]:
Yeah. I think it's also like giving ourselves a lot of grace and not treating that fight as like, oh, it's a major regression in the trajectory that we've been on. I think recognising the absolute inevitability of these ruptures and kind of working that into our expectation of what it means to be in relationship with someone. Because it's messy. Right. It's like two people coming together with all of their own stuff and kind of two lives and we're trying to build something together. Like, of course we're going to stumble. Of course the person I want to stumble with and get up with and kind of do that messy work of rebuilding, I think that's really the much healthier mindset around it, rather than really.
Julie Menanno [00:39:41]:
Is it so much more realistic and the expectations are more appropriate and it's like, as long as we don't want that messiness to take over the relationship and define the climate, there's so much value in that messiness. So much value. Yeah, I mean, a lot of the partners that I see some of them are actually struggling, not so much because they grew up in a high conflict household, but because they grew up in a no conflict household. So now they get into a relationship with more of a norm, which is, hey, we don't see eye to eye about everything. And so what they experienced growing up was that usually it was like, one partner who was making all the decisions. And the reason that there wasn't conflict is because one partner had all the power in the relationship, or they switched power. But still, somehow, this couple, these parents, managed to just not have overt conflict. So what happens to someone who doesn't experience their own parents having rupture and repair, then now they think that these ruptures that are now happening in my relationship, there must be something wrong. They have very little skills to actually repair the situation. So we do want some adversity.
Stephanie Rigg [00:41:03]:
Yeah, I think that's a really important point. It's something I can relate to. In my family. There wasn't a lot of loud conflict fighting, but I was definitely acutely aware of when there was tension.
Julie Menanno [00:41:16]:
And that can be really hard.
Stephanie Rigg [00:41:18]:
Yeah. And I think that that then, for me, has I developed in that environment where I'm now very sensitive to energetic shifts in a dynamic and can experience those. And I've had to do a lot of work around it, like, experience those as really threatening and as some precursor to something very bad, something that's really going to rock the boat. And that feels quite threatening to my system. And so having to kind of disentangle all of that body memory that says, like, oh, this is bad. And you need to kind of get on the front foot and figure out what the problem is and stop it before it becomes something bigger. There's a lot of really, just as.
Julie Menanno [00:42:05]:
You talk, I'm just feeling that anxiety in my system when you're in those situations and, you know, there's this tension, but it's not being talked about. Sometimes that can feel worse than actually hearing people fight.
Stephanie Rigg [00:42:20]:
Absolutely. And I think it does create that hyper vigilance, too, the elephant in the room. And it's something that still now, really, I have such a strong reaction to is, like, there's a thing that's being avoided. There's a conversation that's being avoided or an issue that's being avoided. And I have such a visible reaction to that perception because it has all of the weight of that history behind it.
Julie Menanno [00:42:48]:
Well, what's coming to mind? It's interesting. I'm sure you're familiar with the strange situation. The original, I don't know if you remember this piece, but the children who were labelled as anxious attachment were crying and they were kind of inconsolable when they got triggered. And the mom was kind of anxiously trying to calm them down, but it took an extended period of time compared to the babies with secure attachment. The avoidant children, on the other hand, were just blank. They didn't show much emotion at all. They weren't showing any signs of distress, they just kept playing with the toys. But it was the avoidant children who were more physiologically aroused, even more so than the anxious children.
Julie Menanno [00:43:30]:
So there is something to be said for at least with anxious attachment, that energy is somewhat getting expelled. Not that it's all got its downsides in different ways, but I'm just thinking of you sitting there as a child and know you didn't grow up in this high conflict home, but yet you still have this sense of anxiety and it probably took you a while in your life, I'm guessing, to recognise, hey, that was painful, too.
Stephanie Rigg [00:43:58]:
Yeah, absolutely. I think having that, being able to really honestly look at the environments that we grew up in, not in a way that's trying to lay blame or create a trauma that wasn't there, but to go, oh, okay, yeah, that had an impact. That kind of makes sense that this grew from that and that I adapted in that way and that made a lot of sense in that environment. But maybe that's not serving me well in this new environment that I'm trying to create. I think finding that middle road is really valuable in doing this work and having more context for ourselves and the way that we show up in relationships.
Julie Menanno [00:44:41]:
So true. I love how you said you're not looking for problems, but you are looking at the problems that might still be alive today. And I say this in the book, too. It's like, look, I'm not trying to take away your happy childhood memories or your love for your parents at all. All of it can be true. You can look at your child and say, hey, I was basically a happy kid. I felt loved, I felt supported. And here are some things that maybe didn't go well that are still kind of getting.
Julie Menanno [00:45:14]:
That are getting in my way in this relationship. And some people have the other experience where they're like, no, it was absolutely awful. I felt horrible. All of it can be true. There's no one thing that we can say. You have to have this set of trauma in order to be suffering now.
Stephanie Rigg [00:45:35]:
Yeah, that provides a nice segue. I was going to finish by asking you a very self interested question, because I know that you have. Do you have five kids?
Julie Menanno [00:45:45]:
Six kids.
Stephanie Rigg [00:45:47]:
Six kids. I'm six months pregnant with my first. It is very exciting. I'm very curious to ask you, coming from all of this work, and obviously with having six kids, what would you say is kind of attachment? How has doing this work, I suppose influenced the way that you have approached being a parent?
Julie Menanno [00:46:12]:
Well, it dramatically influenced the way that I am a parent. I mean, just dramatically. I mean, I started off in a really bad foot. This information wasn't available to me. I was not in the field at the time. I did not grow up in a home with much positive modelling and lots of stuff there. So when I had my first son, I was just dead set on figuring it all out. But I was reading all these parenting books, which this was 2001, so they weren't as progressed as they are now. And a lot of them were just kind of giving different contradictory information. I felt like an absolute mess. I did not know what I was doing and I definitely did not get at all the emotional support piece. In my mind, it was like, you create a structured environment, you send them to the right school, you feed them a really healthy diet. I was a stay at home mom and you just kind of put all these things into the recipe and everything works out. But my kids were really lacking in emotional support until I went a little bit before going back to grad school. I started discovering work on self compassion and that was a real shift for me. And then from there, that got me into attachment theory.
Julie Menanno [00:47:34]:
And before that I started doing more of that attachment parenting style, which seemed to be very helpful for me as far as bonding. But my kids are all teenager. Well, they're twelve to 22, so teenage, young, preteen to young adolescent. And the relationship that I have with my children is profoundly healthy. It is probably the biggest achievement I think, of my life, is what I have been able to create with my kids. I have it down. I know how to be emotionally supportive, I know how to be validating. I know how to get them to understand themselves on a deeper level. And for anyone out there who has kids that you have had strained relationships with, or you feel guilty because you hear all this attachment information and we're always sort of blaming the parents, right? There is a way to turn it around. Just keep going with this information, keep going with learning. Truly, it all boils down to learning how to be emotionally supportive. And I hope I answered your question.
Stephanie Rigg [00:48:49]:
Yeah, no, absolutely. It's funny I wanted to ask you because people have been asking me, and while I have my ideas about how I plan to approach parenting, knowing what I know about this work, I'm also very ready to be humbled because I think that going into it, ideals are one thing, and I'm sure the reality of it will be challenging and beautiful and surprising in so many ways. Something that I keep coming back to for myself is like safety, factual safety versus the perception of safety. And I think for babies, infants, children, the perception of safety, and frankly, adults is so much more rich and important in having that really felt sense of security. And I think so much kind of more traditional parenting stuff is just about like, is the baby factually safe? Right? Do they have their physical needs met? Rather than all of that emotional nurturance and validation which is like, do you feel that? Do you perceive yourself to be safe? And really leading with what would a child be wanting from me in order to feel safe in this moment with whatever behaviour they're presenting, I think is a really helpful kind of North Star on a lot of decisions around that.
Julie Menanno [00:50:12]:
It's so true. We really do need to put emotions first. And I think in this culture we're putting achievements first, we're putting school first, we're putting sports first, and even maybe physical health sometimes first, which is, as we know, all those things are wonderful and important. But what needs to happen first is emotional safety. Truly, the parents that I've worked with throughout the years that have become parents as we're doing this work or after they've done all this work, just goes my blanket. I have seen them be very successful from day one, so there is hope, you know, so much. I just want to reassure you that what I see is that people who are going into parenting doing this work, that the experience is just so pleasurable for them because they get to feel so successful. And for me, when I had my first, I was learning, oh, you have to let them cry it out.
Julie Menanno [00:51:17]:
They've got to be on this sleep schedule. I mean, to this day I have PTSD symptoms around listening to my son cry, I just. Horrible memories. With my third, I learned this attachment parenting where I was carrying her in a sling and sleeping with her. And to me that was a beautiful experience. Not that everybody needs to take it that far, but for me that way of living was far less exhausting than the other way. I was getting sleep at night. I felt the felt sense of emotionals.
Julie Menanno [00:51:45]:
Everything just felt safe and right and then. Are you familiar with gober mate?
Stephanie Rigg [00:51:52]:
Yes.
Julie Menanno [00:51:53]:
Okay, so have you read his book on add scattered no, I haven't. Okay, well, there's a chapter in this book, kind of near the end about parenting, and it feels a little, I don't know if I want to say random, but it's a parenting style that he's bringing to life and describing that is exactly the way I've learned to parent. And whenever he's describing it in this book, in this add book, which it doesn't have to be about add at all, to me, that's the way to go, is that chapter of the graph latte book. And I have seen that way of being with children be so successful.
Stephanie Rigg [00:52:33]:
Yeah. A lot of his stuff around parenting really resonates. He has a section in his newest book, the myth of normal around parenting, and there's another one, hold on to your kids, which he co wrote with another guy, which is direct. Okay. Yeah, well, no, but he's so prolific that he really covers such a broad scope. But yeah, a lot of his stuff makes a lot of sense to me and everything.
Julie Menanno [00:53:00]:
You're going to be fine.
Stephanie Rigg [00:53:01]:
If you're already is hoping again, I'm very ready to be humbled, but I'm feeling better prepared than I certainly would have been without all of this work. It's an exciting time. Julie, where can people find you? I think I suspect a lot of people listening will already be familiar with you. But for those who aren't, what's the best way for them to engage more deeply with your work and stay connected with you?
Julie Menanno [00:53:30]:
Well, my home base, because this is where I kind of started putting this information out, is my Instagram account, which is at the secure relationship. I also have a website where you can go to just see my podcast that I've done, not mine, but guest appeared on. That is where you'll find links to the book. I do have a team of therapists working for me, coaches, actually, that work all over the globe. And then my book, secure love, which is now out, not as I speak. When this airs, you can find it anywhere. It's all over the world, lots of different places. But I always say we'll just go to Amazon and that seems like an easy one.
Julie Menanno [00:54:20]:
So, yeah, secure love by Julie Manano. I'm really proud. Really proud. I really think I've put something together that is going to really have a lot to give to the world, and that feels really good for me. But if you don't want to buy the book, definitely go to my Instagram account because all of the information is there. I mean, it's disjointed it's not as organised, but as you know, my posts are very lengthy, very much in depth. So Instagram account is an actual book, if you don't mind kicking around a lot and reading the same thing over and over.
Stephanie Rigg [00:54:54]:
Thanks, Julie. We'll link all of that in the show notes and absolutely, I think your Instagram is invaluable. But I also very much look forward to receiving a copy of the book. Julie, thank you so much for a beautiful conversation. It's been very insightful and I'm sure will be hugely valuable to everyone who is listening.
Julie Menanno [00:55:13]:
All right, well, great. Thanks for having me and congratulations and I'm so excited for you. Glowing. Now it makes.
Stephanie Rigg [00:55:21]:
Well, I think it's because it's the middle of summer here. People keep saying to me that I'm glowing and I think it's just like light sweat. But I'm happy to take the compliment on glowing, the word that is reserved for pregnant women.
Stephanie Rigg [00:55:35]:
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again sooner.
Keywords from Podcast Episode
communication in relationships, emotional regulation, personal growth, first order change, second order change, emotional safety, validating concerns, anxious partners, avoidant partners, empathetic conversations, behaviour change, secure attachment, self-regulation, self-improvement, navigating emotions, self-trust, managing negative emotions, relationship adversity, conflict resolution, relationship growth, low-conflict upbringing, childhood impact on relationships, attachment theory, self-compassion, Gabor Maté, parenting advice, couples therapy, attachment styles, negative communication cycles, practical relationship skills