#63 How to deal with an all-consuming fear that my partner will cheat on me?
In today's Q&A episode, I'm answering the question of how to navigate an all-consuming fear & paranoia around a partner cheating - particularly in circumstances where that fear is seemingly unwarranted.
In today's Q&A episode, I'm answering the question of how to navigate an all-consuming fear & paranoia around a partner cheating - particularly in circumstances where that fear is seemingly unwarranted.
WHAT WE COVER:
the importance of nervous system regulation when we experience intense fear & paranoia
when to talk to a partner about our fears
the link between fear of cheating and low self-worth
a liberating truth about control in relationships
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.41 → 0:00:38.24
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's Q and A episode is all about navigating paranoia about a partner cheating.
0:00:38.38 → 0:01:30.26
So the specific question that I'm answering is one that I got on Instagram and it was how do I navigate paranoia and all consuming fear of cheating, even when there's no warranted situation at hand? So if you are someone who really struggles with the fear of infidelity and all of the associated behaviours that can spring from that paranoia overthinking control. Playing detective, maybe snooping, struggling to trust your partner, really struggling with any sort of distance between you, because you tend to fill in the blanks and assume that the moment they're out of sight, they're going to be doing something in breach of the agreements of your relationship. All of these things can flow from that paranoia about a partner cheating. And so if that's something that you experience at the moment or you have in the past, you know that that's something you struggle with.
0:01:30.39 → 0:02:21.17
Today's episode should be really helpful for you in understanding that piece of you a little more. I think that for me to say that I can solve that for you in a 15 minutes episode would be misleading because there's usually a lot of stuff wrapped up in it. But I suppose the way I frame it is probably as you do the broader work of healing and becoming more secure in yourself, of building your self worth then your fear around things like infidelity and the paranoia and the need to control will probably organically soften because as we'll talk about that stuff usually springs from extremely low self worth and low self esteem and the associated fears that can come with that. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements.
0:02:21.33 → 0:02:41.51
Today is the last day to join this round of healing anxious attachment. At the time of recording, we have just over 300 people who've signed up in the last couple of weeks. So it's really, really amazing. I'm so excited for all of those people who've already dived in. So when you sign up, you get instant access to the first module and then each module after that will be released weekly from your start date.
0:02:41.60 → 0:03:20.24
So it's an eight module course, an eight week course, although you do get lifetime access to all of the materials. You also get to come to two live Q and A calls with me. That might sound a little weird given I just told you there's 300 people who've signed up, but in the past we've not had more than 30ish people on a call. The reality is most people don't turn up live. So if it's anything like previous cohorts, which were of a similar size, you do still get access to me and have the opportunity to ask me a question and have me directly speak to your situation and give you some individual coaching within that group forum.
0:03:20.35 → 0:03:52.39
So, as I said, today is the last day to join. There is an extended payment plan so you can get started for as little as $97 on a six month payment plan. The link to that is in the show notes, and I probably won't be running the course until the latter half of the year. I haven't set a date for that yet, but if it's something that you've been considering, I do really encourage you to cheque it out and sign up because there is no time like the present to get started on this work. The second quick announcement is just to share the featured review, which is I really love this one.
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Stephanie's teaching on attachment and relationships has settled deep in my heart. She brings a beautiful mix of knowledge, wisdom, experience, compassion and forthrightness that speaks the truth in a loving but firm manner. I highly recommend all of her podcasts. Thank you for that beautiful review. As I said, I really loved that one when I read it.
0:04:08.84 → 0:04:44.09
If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephaniereg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around paranoia, jealousy, all consuming fear about a partner cheating. Now, you might recall that in the original question that someone asked, they said, it's an unwarranted fear. There's nothing currently happening that would justify this fear of mine. And I think that that's an important qualifier at the outset.
0:04:44.11 → 0:05:27.09
And I'm always minded to offer this caveat, because oftentimes I hear from people who really struggle with jealousy and they blame themselves for that. They say, what's wrong with me? I'm so paranoid, I'm so crazy, I'm so jealous. And then they tell me a little more about the situation, and my response is, well, of course you feel that way, because there are things going on there that would make anyone feel crazy and paranoid and jealous. So I think that that's an important footnote to this discussion at the outset is that when we're talking about paranoia, trust issues, jealousy, we want to make sure that we're not almost like gaslighting ourselves or making ourselves out.
0:05:27.13 → 0:06:01.59
To be the crazy one, the unhinged one, the unstable one, when there are things that are sort of patently not okay or would not be okay. For the vast majority of people in monogamous relationships or non monogamous relationships where there are clear boundaries that are being crossed. So that might be true in the current sense, but also if there has been previous infidelity within the relationship. Again, give yourself some grace because that's not something that's easy to just get over and draw a line under. The past is in the past, and I'm not going to have those feelings come up again.
0:06:01.68 → 0:06:39.18
That's a very normal and understandable way to respond to betrayal infidelity some sort of breach of trust. And even if that wasn't in the current relationship, if that has been in your past, then your body remembers that and your protective mechanisms, your protective parts, their whole job is to look out for similarities of things that happened in your past that were painful or frightening and try to protect you against that. So if there's anything that looks even vaguely similar to something that happened in the past, you're going to get the alarm bells ringing. That's how your system works. Okay?
0:06:39.55 → 0:07:25.33
So let's just be somewhat kind to ourselves around what we're bringing to relationships in terms of what might have happened in our past that would justify us feeling a certain way. With all of that being said, I think we can acknowledge and agree that there are circumstances where our reaction, our response doesn't match what's really happening. And that can feel extremely frustrating and scary and destabilising. And we can feel like we're almost possessed by this demonic part that is behaving in a way. It's almost like we can watch ourselves in slow motion and go, I'm being a bit crazy here, but I feel powerless to stop it because I'm so scared, I'm so panicked about this.
0:07:25.50 → 0:08:02.93
And so I think a really good starting point if you listened to the episode earlier in the week with Sarah Baldwin on Understanding your Nervous system, I think the more literacy you have around your nervous system, the better equipped you will be to navigate things like all consuming fear, paranoia. And what you'll probably notice is a very sympathetic response to that, meaning a lot of activation, energy mobilisation, I have to do something, right? This sense of probably being really flooded with energy, heat, tingling, I've got to do something. I've got to find information. I've got to call them.
0:08:02.97 → 0:08:50.53
I've got to cheque on them, I've got to stalk them, whatever I've got to do. But it's like your body is propelling you into action to try and deal with this perceived threat. The more that you can locate yourself and your current experience in the states of your nervous system, the better equipped you will be to regulate and then go, okay, what's really happening here? Can I put on my clear glasses and see this situation for what it is, rather than looking at everything that's going on through this lens of extreme fear and dysregulation? So in summary, whenever you notice this and this might be something that happens acutely, so in certain situations, you have sudden bouts of paranoia, or maybe it's something that's kind of chronic.
0:08:50.61 → 0:09:46.85
But either way, when you notice that coming up prioritising regulation in your body. So maybe that's going for a run, maybe that's calling a friend, whatever you need to do to bring your body back into a level of regulation that's going to be a really responsible, I would say, first step in managing these emotions. I think that there is definitely scope to talk to a partner about this right now, depending on the state of your relationship, depending on how your communication is, depending on your partner's capacity. But I don't think it's something that you have to internalise and feel shame about and feel really alone in that experience. So if it's totally unwarranted and your partner has never done anything to your knowledge to breach trust, then you can say to them, I know that this is going to sound crazy, and I really want you to understand.
0:09:46.97 → 0:10:33.39
That this is not an accusation and it's not something that I'm saying you've done wrong. But I'm having these thoughts and feelings, and it's causing me a lot of stress. Having that awareness for yourself, what stories am I telling myself and where is that coming from and what do I need in order to feel safe in this? Letting your partner into the experience a bit can be quite relieving, but we just want to make sure that we're not doing it in a way that is dumping it on them and then making it their responsibility to reassure us and convince us that everything is okay. Because if we become reliant on them to create that safety for us, we're going to need just regular doses of reassurance from them in order to feel safe.
0:10:33.44 → 0:11:12.60
And if you're really anxiously attached, which I assume the person who is asking this question is that will never be enough. No amount of reassurance from them will be enough because it's just not actually meeting the need, right. If anything, it's perpetuating the pattern of I'm only safe if you convince me that I'm safe, rather than being able to create that for myself. So as I alluded to at the start, I think the bigger picture work on this. If we think about regulating our nervous system and having a conversation with our partner around what we're feeling and what we might need from them, or things that might help relationally.
0:11:12.63 → 0:11:48.81
If those are the two shorter term practical points to help you with this, the bigger picture solution is going to be building up your self worth. Because fear about a partner cheating or jealousy about a partner's exes anything like this is just a symptom of really low self worth, right? We're convinced that the second we turn our back, our partner is going to go find someone better than us that they like more, that they're more attracted to, that they want more. And that is terrifying, right? But it is just a symptom of I think that I am unworthy.
0:11:48.89 → 0:12:14.05
I think that I am not good enough. I think that I have very little to offer. I'm not attractive enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not funny enough, I'm not compelling enough as a partner and therefore I'm holding on to you by a thread. It feels like there's nothing substantive keeping you here and in relationship with me. I am convinced that you're going to leave me the first chance you get.
0:12:14.17 → 0:12:43.16
And so I'm extremely paranoid about you cheating on me. That is a low self worth story. That is a story that only takes root when we feel like we have nothing to offer, like we have no value to our partner. And while again there might be aspects of that that we can deal with relationally, the vast majority of that is your work. And that's not meant to lay blame on you.
0:12:43.18 → 0:13:14.60
It's meant to empower you to go wow, okay, this is an inside job, I've got some work to do. Where did I learn that I have to prove my worth and that I have to be perfect in order to be lovable and that I have to control someone and keep them so close because the second I let go, they're going to leave me. If I release my grip on them, they're going to run and find someone that they actually love. Where did I learn that? Where's that coming from in me?
0:13:14.73 → 0:13:43.55
What part of me needs comfort and reassurance and soothing that I can offer in order to change that story? And again, this is longer term work, right? This is the work of reprogramming our core wounds. But I think that I alluded to this last week in a different context on what to do when you're feeling stuck in your relationship. But the more that you can turn focus back onto yourself because paranoia about a partner cheating is so other focused, right?
0:13:43.59 → 0:14:12.08
That's a beautiful expression of the anxious attachment tendency to be obsessed with what our partner is doing and needing to control that in order to feel okay within ourselves. So the more that we can interrupt that expression of the pattern and instead go okay, what do I need? How can I stand on my own 2ft and be less hyper focused on what my partner is doing, right? And actually turn attention inward? And what do I need and what do I want to do?
0:14:12.12 → 0:14:47.52
And how can I make my life really full and rich and rewarding without that being tethered to the ups and downs of my relationship or whatever my partner might be doing or not doing? The last thing that I want to offer here. And this is a little bit more philosophical and for some people this will be very triggering, for others it will be very liberating. So just bear that in mind and if it doesn't work for you, leave it. The radical truth is that you cannot control your partner and if your partner wants to cheat on you, they will cheat on you.
0:14:47.59 → 0:15:34.00
Irrespective of whether you are on them like a hawk, they'll find a way. So put differently, no amount of control or manipulation or detective work or monitoring is going to be able to keep someone where they don't want to be. So in acknowledgment of that can we release the grip and trust? Right? Because we've either got a relationship that has no trust that is governed by control and monitoring and detective work and grip and clinging and fear and paranoia and all of these really heavy exhausting dynamics and even in that dynamic your partner could still cheat on you.
0:15:34.10 → 0:16:01.92
Your partner could leave you tomorrow, right? We can never control that. That's part of the intense vulnerability of relationships is that we cannot stop ourselves from getting hurt no matter how hard we try. So we could try, we could be on that hamster wheel of control and seeking to control and preempt and try and avoid the worst happening even though we ultimately can't. Or we could let go.
0:16:02.45 → 0:16:53.24
We could trust, we could create space, we could be with the discomfort of distance and uncertainty and not knowing and not being able to guarantee that your partner won't cheat on you because none of us can. And instead focus on building our self worth and building our resilience, building our capacity to experience discomfort and building the self trust of knowing that even if the worst happens, I will be okay. Because I have reallocated that energy that I was obsessing over what someone else is doing and instead directed that towards cultivating a stronger relationship with myself so that I learn to be my own anchor. I learn to be okay. And that is not to say that we're kind of tacitly or indirectly endorsing cheating or infidelity or mistrust or anything like that, right?
0:16:53.34 → 0:17:45.20
It's more to acknowledge that the control tactics don't actually work. If anything, they can probably sabotage a relationship by pushing someone away because none of us like to feel controlled, none of us like to feel like someone doesn't trust us. That really erodes emotional safety and intimacy. So put that way and of course easier said than done but that is part of the intense vulnerability of being in relationship and this work is wow, I don't own this person and I can't control what they're doing and I don't know what goes on in their head. So can I radically accept that and surrender into it rather than banging my head up against a wall and causing myself so much stress and tension and fear and anxiety in the process?
0:17:45.73 → 0:18:11.21
Okay, so I hope that that has given you something to think about. As I said, it's not one that I can give you a three step plan and then voila, it will be solved within a couple of days. It is really a symptom of the broader experience of anxious attachment of low self worth. It springs from that. It really does take root in that soil.
0:18:11.39 → 0:18:27.02
And that's okay, right? It's not something to shame ourselves about. It makes perfect sense. And you are so far from being alone in this experience. I've experienced this for sure, but I've also experienced the version where I've made peace with not being able to control someone.
0:18:27.07 → 0:19:11.24
And I can assure you that there's a lot of relief in that, even though it can feel vulnerable at times. So I hope that that's been helpful for the person who asked the question and anyone else listening, who struggles with paranoia, struggling to trust betrayal infidelity all of those fears, which are, as I said, very understandable and very common. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a five star rating or a written review. If you're listening on Apple podcasts, it really does help so much. And a final reminder that if you are someone who struggles with anxious attachment and you're ready to make a change, today is the last day to sign up for my Healing Anxious Attachment programme.
0:19:11.37 → 0:19:19.44
The link is in the show notes and I would love to see you there. Thank you so much for joining me, everybody, and I will see you again next week. Take care.
0:19:21.57 → 0:19:43.62
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
#62 Understanding Your Nervous System with Sarah Baldwin
In today's episode, I'm speaking with Sarah Baldwin - a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner and Trauma Coach who is trained in Polyvagal interventions and is on the training team at the Polyvagal Institute. Sarah specialises in somatic trauma healing, attachment work, parts and inner child work and nervous system regulation.
In today's episode, I'm speaking with Sarah Baldwin - a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner and Trauma Coach who is trained in Polyvagal interventions and is on the training team at the Polyvagal Institute.
Sarah specialises in somatic trauma healing, attachment work, parts and inner child work and nervous system regulation.
WHAT WE COVER:
why nervous system regulation is the missing piece in so much healing work
understanding the different states of your nervous system
the connection between attachment and nervous system regulation
how to distinguish between anxiety and intuition
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Sign up for my signature 8-week course Healing Anxious Attachment
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.57 → 0:00:29.88
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here.
0:00:30.01 → 0:00:57.01
Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today is a very exciting and special episode as I am joined by Sarah Baldwin. If you don't know Sarah's work, sarah is a somatic experiencing practitioner and trauma coach. She's trained in polyvagal interventions and is on the training team at the Polyvagal Institute. She specialises in somatic, trauma healing, attachment work parts and inner child work and nervous system regulation.
0:00:57.51 → 0:01:31.91
So I'm sure that you can imagine from that introduction in that bio, you can understand why I'm so excited to have Sarah join us here today. We're going to be talking all about the role of the nervous system in influencing, shaping, regulating our emotional experience and how becoming more fluent in our nervous system can really support us to become more empowered in not only our relationships, but our life more broadly. So, Sarah, welcome. Thank you for joining me on the show. Thank you so much for having me.
0:01:31.95 → 0:01:52.12
It is so good to be here with you today and so good to be here with everyone listening. So we've got a lot of ground to cover. Let's dive straight in. I speak about nervous system regulation a little bit on the podcast. It's something that I cover in my online course around anxious attachment.
0:01:52.23 → 0:02:24.43
And to be very honest with you, when I first created that course and included a module on nervous system regulation, I was worried that people's eyes would glaze over, I'd lose people because it might not sound that sexy to people understanding our nervous system. I was always really pleasantly surprised that people came back and said, you know, wow, this, this changes everything. This is really the missing piece. And it is a paradigm shift. And that's certainly been my personal experience as well.
0:02:24.58 → 0:03:04.29
And so I'd love to hear from your perspective why this stuff matters, why people should care about their nervous system. Well, our nervous system, our autonomic nervous system specifically, it is responsible for creating our entire experience of how we perceive the world, ourselves, others. And our entire experience is a result of what's happening inside of this nervous system. And so first and foremost, that's really huge. If there's a system inside of us that has that kind of power over our lives, shouldn't we know about it?
0:03:04.38 → 0:04:13.80
And I say this a lot, but I think it's so fascinating that we learn about outer space and solar systems and black holes and so on and so forth and so many other things, but we are not taught about the system that resides inside of us. Not understanding this system essentially means that we are kind of like put in the backseat and it goes on cruise control and that means we're making choices behaviours and so on, and having choices behaviours, so on and so forth, that are not perhaps things that are of our choice but are of a survival response. What I like to say is that at any given moment there are six states within our autonomic nervous system that we can be residing in. And I think of that like imagine if you had six pairs of glasses that all had different coloured lenses, a rose coloured lens, a dark brown lens, a bright red lens that happened to have frenetic energy moving around in it, a beautiful clear lens. And at any given moment you have one of those lenses on how you are seeing everything, experiencing everything, is depicted by that lens.
0:04:13.91 → 0:04:45.96
And when I say everything, I really mean everything. Meaning our thoughts, our behaviour. So the actions we take, our feelings, things like feeling hopeful, curious, loved, loving, anxious, frustrated, worried, concerned, frozen, trapped, apathetic, depressed. All is dependent on this nervous system, the sensations we feel in our body. So sensations are things like feeling tension or feeling relaxed, feeling numb or feeling here.
0:04:46.09 → 0:05:21.48
All of those things are entirely decided upon by this nervous system. And not just that, but the way in which we connect with other human beings via attachment is directly related to what's happening in our nervous system. So it's really imperative that we understand this system within us because it is the answer to really unlocking the lives that we desire. It is the foundation of all healing. I can explain in a bit what I mean by that, but it's really foundational in our experience as a human being.
0:05:22.49 → 0:05:40.02
Thank you for that. I think it's also, in my experience, the answer to this question of like why am I like this? Or why does this keep happening? In that sense of none of this makes sense. It's like you kind of can step outside of that and go actually, a lot of this makes sense, maybe all of it makes sense.
0:05:40.20 → 0:06:18.69
And I think that that in and of itself can be a really powerful experience. Just to have someone tell you no, there's an explanation for this and there's a system behind it. And understanding that rather than feeling powerless and feeling that, we have all of these conflicting parts with different motives and taking us in different directions which might be very different to the direction that we ultimately want to go. Not understanding why we aren't where we want to be again, whether that's in work or our romantic relationships or anywhere else, our emotional state. Yeah.
0:06:18.73 → 0:07:23.10
So first I just want to say I have a complex trauma history myself and spent most of my life dysregulated and not knowing what was happening or why it was happening or how to change it, or why sometimes I felt okay and sometimes I didn't feel okay and sometimes I felt really not okay. And I didn't understand any of it. And not only that, but the traditional mental health model is set up in a way to make people feel as if something is wrong with them, using words like dysfunctional or maladaptation or treatment resistant anxiety or depression and so on and so forth. And I'm not at all saying that diagnoses can't be helpful, but when we look through a lens of there be or even something like insecure attachment styles, all of these are through lenses of there's something wrong with you and you're deficient and neuroscience and polyvagal theory, it shows us unequivocally that the opposite is true. There is absolutely nothing wrong with us if we are experiencing dysregulation of our nervous system.
0:07:23.15 → 0:07:40.86
In fact, everything is working exactly right. Our system is never confused. It is so incredibly, exquisitely powerful. And as someone who experienced the opposite for so long, it was so good to know that. And that's why I say all the time and have a programme called You Makes Sense.
0:07:40.96 → 0:08:03.61
And I'm writing a book with the title You Make Sense because it is so good to know that we make sense. And if we make sense, that means there's something we can do about it. So, just to explain this, which might be a really new term for a lot of you, your autonomic nervous system, like, what is that? What does that even mean? So within us, each of us, is this brilliant self protective system.
0:08:03.76 → 0:08:29.97
We all have one. In fact, every mammal has one. And any moment we are experiencing one of six places inside of this self protective system. So there are many members of this autonomic system that we have, like members of the team. And I liken it to a special ops team, not for any military affiliation, but because a special ops team in general is the best of the best.
0:08:30.04 → 0:08:47.67
It's very hard to be on a special ops team. And a special ops team has many members, all with very different roles. They don't all have the same role, which is important because there's going to be different things that we need done on the team. Our autonomic nervous system is the same. It is the best of the best.
0:08:47.74 → 0:09:11.61
It is the strongest system within you. Parts of it are 500 million years old and every member has a different job. But they have one mission, just like a special ops team, one primary purpose. And that primary purpose is to keep you safe and alive at all costs. It loves you so much, it will do whatever it takes to make sure that you are alive and okay.
0:09:11.81 → 0:09:36.72
And it does that in the form of Dysregulation. And I'll explain what that is in a second. So the first line of defence, or the first special ops team member, is you can think of as our threat detector. So imagine it standing out in front of you and its whole job is to look out into the world and look inside of you to see is that safe, dangerous or life threatening? Safe, dangerous or life threatening.
0:09:36.78 → 0:10:04.37
And here's the thing. For anyone listening who has felt like you are broken, like you are beyond help, like something is wrong with you, I hope in this episode that you are able to see that. Science says that couldn't be further from the truth, my friend. Because this threat detector, every millisecond of your entire life, every millisecond which is really fast, everyone, it has been looking out into the world from the moment you came into this world saying is that safe, dangerous or life threatening? Is that safe, dangerous or life threatening?
0:10:04.39 → 0:10:16.83
Is that safe, dangerous or life threatening? Is that safe, dangerously threatening? It's doing it right now wherever you are in the world listening to this episode. And that first of all talk about not weak, right? That is really strong.
0:10:17.03 → 0:10:42.26
It also looks internally, which is called interception neuroception. That coin is termed by Stephen Porges is its ability to look outside of us. So you might be saying, well, how does it decide what is safe, dangerous or life threatening? Well, it looks to a database of past information that is inside of each of us. Think of it like if you have your own personal database and inside your own database is every lived experience you've ever had.
0:10:42.36 → 0:11:23.69
You don't have to remember it, it's in the database. And that means the really yummy, wonderful, amazing things are in there. Like the birth of your child, or a wonderful vacation, or laughing with friends, or a wonderful moment family. The not so good experiences like being bullied in school, or a medical procedure that did not go well, or not being heard, seen or known, or the life threatening experiences like neglect, or abuse, or emotional abuse, or racism or sexism or colonialization or whatever kind of traumas you might have experienced, all of them are in there. Not only that, we also have our ancestors experiences, our parents experiences in there.
0:11:23.76 → 0:11:45.50
Unresolved trauma. That's the concept of epigenetics in there as well. So when my threat detector is looking out into the world, like right now I'm looking outside of my office in Los Angeles, California, there's a beautiful tree. And immediately when I looked at the tree, I felt something in my body that said it's nice. I noticed like a smile come on my face and I noticed it felt good.
0:11:45.63 --> 0:12:09.96
The reason being is because in my database there's lots of information of I grew up in the middle of the woods and my home wasn't safe, but the woods were really safe. So anytime I see a tree, my threat detector says that's safe. Now, if let's say I had caregivers whom I was never good enough with and they always, every time I brought a report card home, it was never enough. It was never enough. It was never enough.
0:12:10.01 → 0:12:23.79
For example, let's say you have a boss who says, hey, who's a lovely boss? So nice. They're not like your parents who were so hypercritical and unkind to you. They say, hey, we have to do your quarterly review. Well, guess what happens?
0:12:23.86 → 0:12:39.64
The threat detector says, whoa, we have data about that not being safe. We're going to feel like we're not good enough. We're small. We're also like reminding us of our younger parts, and that's not safe. And so here's what your threat detector does in a millisecond.
0:12:39.67 → 0:13:02.87
It says, what did we need to do back then to maintain safety? And we know you maintain safety because you're here now. And it says, we're going to do the same thing now. That was the right thing. So the threat detector calls in one of six Special Ops team members to do the trick to protect you or to let you be in safety at any given moment.
0:13:02.91 → 0:13:19.32
So let's say let's go to the example of the boss. So your system says, whoa, that's dangerous, but I think we can do something about it. It's dangerous, but not life threatening. Meaning I think we might be able to fight this thing or flee this thing. So in a millisecond, it calls in something called your sympathetic nervous system.
0:13:19.42 → 0:13:38.70
That's a team member of your Special Ops team. So imagine that you had your hands closed in front of you. It's almost like it's like a door closing you off from the external world. And that's what it's like when our sympathetic nervous system or any state of self protection is protecting us. It's blocking us from the bad thing.
0:13:38.88 → 0:13:57.51
And it also the crux of that is it keeps out the things that we desire. So if we're finding ourselves stuck in our lives, that's a clue. I might have a Special Ops team member standing in front of me. So sympathetic is all about the doing. And I'm just going to name some things so folks can hear what that's like, because a lot of you might really know this state.
0:13:57.63 → 0:14:08.18
So let's say a boss is saying, hey, we have to have that talk. And all of a sudden, neuroception threat detector says, hey, that's not safe. Sympathetic, come in. Sympathetic comes in in a millisecond. All of a sudden I feel anxious.
0:14:08.24 → 0:14:13.63
I feel concerned. My heart rate increases. I have racing thoughts like, wait, did I do something wrong? I don't know. Did I not?
0:14:13.67 → 0:14:30.91
I left work 15 minutes early last week and I don't know if I told mine I left work 15 minutes early last week and wait, I don't know did I get the assignments done that I said I was going to do? And all of a sudden I'm sweating and I feel tension in my body and there's tension in my jaw. All of a sudden, my jaw is tight, my neck is tight, my shoulders are up to my face, my ears. Rather, I have tunnel vision. I can't focus on anything else.
0:14:30.95 → 0:14:43.40
I have butterflies in my stomach. I feel like I can't digest food or I'm going to throw up. And there's so much energy in my body, you can probably hear that in my voices. I'm putting this on for you. That's called your sympathetic nervous system and all about the doing.
0:14:43.53 → 0:15:03.56
And we want that system. It's really evolutionarily. A wonderful system to have. For example, just to give you an evolutionary response, or example, let's say a lion was chasing me. My system, my threat detector would say, hey, I think we can do something about this run and get away.
0:15:03.74 → 0:15:33.24
So when we're here, here's what I want listeners to know. What is so extraordinary is this sympathetic system talks to every organ in your body and essentially says not just organ, but chemical release, hormonal release, and says we need everybody to get on the memo of self protection right now because we love this person so much, we need to make sure they're safe. So what happens is your immune system, your system says, do we need our immune system right now if we're running from a theoretical lion? Absolutely not. That shuts down.
0:15:33.29 → 0:15:41.15
Do we need our GI tract functioning properly and digesting food? No way. Shut that down. We don't need that functioning fully. We'll shut it down just to function minimally.
0:15:41.25 → 0:15:53.82
Hey, cortisol and adrenaline. We need you to hike up so that we can sprint away as fast as we possibly can. Thinking brain, prefrontal cortex. Do we need to think and rationalise learn a new language if we're running from a lion? No way.
0:15:53.92 → 0:16:11.18
Liver. Do we need to detoxify properly? No. So all of that extra energy goes to increasing our heart rate, increasing our overall energy in our body so that we can sprint or flee the thing as fast as possible. So this is a brilliant self protective response.
0:16:11.21 → 0:16:34.03
It is one that a lot of people find themselves in. Now, that's not the only self protective response. We have two others. The other is let's imagine the theoretical lion that I just described is no longer, I don't know, 300 yards away, it's 5ft away or a yard away. It's very close.
0:16:34.18 → 0:16:53.77
And so what the threat detector says is it says, woof, this has gotten more dangerous than I thought it was going to be. And team Sympathetic, who's all been about mobilising, running and running, running, you weren't able to properly or able to do. You did your best, but you couldn't get us away from the threat. Not your fault. You did your best that you could.
0:16:53.94 → 0:17:22.71
What I'm going to do is I'm going to call in our most extreme form of self protection called our dorsal vagal complex. Now, this is a different state. Remember I said there's six states, this is the second state or another one of the six states. Imagine it standing in front of you guarding you now, this state's job, and I think this is so beautiful. It comes online when our system is saying, my love, I don't think that I can fight this thing for you.
0:17:22.88 → 0:17:40.33
I can't get rid of it and I can't make it stop. But what I can do is help you to leave your body so that you don't have to feel the perpetual pain of what we can't make go away. When I learned that, I thought, wow, if this is not a loving system, I don't know. It is. It has never let us down.
0:17:40.42 → 0:18:04.07
When other people may have let us down. Your nervous system never ever has, my friend. And so every the beautiful thing is every mammal actually has the ability to access this dorsal system. And for example, the impala that's going to be eaten by the lion. Its system lovingly says, my dear, I can't make this stop, but I can help you leave your body so you don't have to feel the pain of this.
0:18:04.19 → 0:18:25.44
And I just think like wow, we are amazing beings. Like wow, that is so cool. And I'm saying that everyone is someone who spent a couple of decades in this state of dorsal, not in my body. And there's a variety of experience here, so this might sound familiar. Some of this here's what it can look like, feeling apathetic, I don't care.
0:18:25.49 → 0:18:46.88
The things I used to, like, nothing seems enticing or good. Then I start to feel a little out of it and fuzzy. I have low energy. I'm feeling like I can't really think. I'm starting to notice that tasks like folding the laundry, answering emails, doing errands, like, oh, it feels impossible, I just can't do it.
0:18:46.90 → 0:18:58.58
I notice that I'm feeling almost like I'm going into outer space. Like I'm floating away. I feel numb. I can't really feel my body or I'm floating above my body. I feel hopeless.
0:18:58.72 → 0:19:06.55
I feel shame. Something's wrong with me. I can't I'm not capable. I'm not able. I feel depressed.
0:19:06.68 → 0:19:33.70
I feel dissociated levels, that there's levels of dissociation which can leaving your body, which can start by feeling like maybe even like oh, I took a sleeping pill, but I didn't. And I feel out of it and weird and kind of drugged, but I didn't take a drug. So what's going on? I'm just not here in my body. I can't feel my body or my face or all the way to I don't know who I am or I don't think the world is real or I don't remember how I got here today.
0:19:33.75 → 0:19:54.46
That's a very deep level of dissociation. And that is think of it like a bear going into hibernation. Everything is shutting down and everything inside of us shuts down too. All of those internal organs begin to shut down as well as our heart rate and so on and so forth. All to help us leave our body and so that we don't have to feel the perpetual pain of what's happening.
0:19:54.51 → 0:20:30.12
So if we experience neglect as a child, if we experienced work environments that were really toxic, that we felt like we couldn't leave, if we had home environments that were abusive, if we had parents who were fighting all the time, or alcoholics, or they were emotionally unwell themselves, or we were physically harmed, or we experienced so many other things that are life threatening. What occurs as we go to this state? And then there's one more state of dysregulation that we experience, and it's called freeze. Now, freeze is equal parts that sympathetic. The sympathetic is like think of it like a cheetah sprinting off.
0:20:30.17 → 0:20:48.69
It's so much energy, lots and lots of energy. And dorsal is the opposite, bare and hibernation. So we have two equal and opposite forces and they come together equally. One saying I have to, one saying I can't. And so when these forces come together, it creates something called tonic immobility.
0:20:48.79 → 0:21:02.65
So think about it, something that I have folks do. And if you're listening, try this out. Push with both hands equally. Like, put your hands together and push as hard as you can and keep doing that for a few seconds. I'm doing it right now with my hands in front of me.
0:21:02.74 → 0:21:14.37
I'm pushing them together as hard as I can. And what I'm noticing is it takes a lot of effort to do this. I'm feeling a little warm. My heart rate is increasing and I'm going to stop it. But I wanted you all to practise that.
0:21:14.41 → 0:21:25.30
Because when we're in freeze, people think, why didn't I do something? I just stood there. Why didn't I say something? Why didn't I fight back? Why didn't I?
0:21:25.32 → 0:21:34.09
Why didn't I? Why didn't I? Which creates a lot of shame. And what I want you to know is when you're in freeze, your system is doing so much. It takes a lot of energy to be here.
0:21:34.21 → 0:21:53.50
To follow the animal analogy, it's like a deer in headlights. So what it's like is all this energy inside, but I'm frozen, so I'm trapped in it. A couple of simple examples of what that can look like. Let's say you want to step towards something in your life. You want to start a business, and you're like, I really need to start it.
0:21:53.52 → 0:22:03.95
And I feel behind and I really need to get going. And you sit at your computer and you're like, I have 75 million things that I want to start and do. I start with hiring this person or this person or doing this or doing this. I mean, there's so many things to do. What did that person do when they started their business?
0:22:03.99 → 0:22:10.66
I don't know. And then all of a sudden, I feel blank and overwhelmed and I'm like, I just need to go to bed. This is too much. I can't do this. I can't do this.
0:22:10.76 → 0:22:15.06
It's too much. No, but I need to do this. No, but I can't do this. No, but I need to do this. No, but I can't do it.
0:22:15.08 → 0:22:43.26
And then you're like find yourself organising your junk draw for the 12th time because you just can't seem to step towards the thing. But all you do is think about stepping towards the thing that you can't seem to step towards. That is a classic experience of being in this state of freeze. Simple example you get a text from someone that's kind of hard to read and you think I really need to respond back, but you're like yeah, I'll do that later, I really need to do it now, I'll do it later. And you think about doing it for 8 hours, but you don't actually do it and you're exhausted by that experience.
0:22:43.36 → 0:23:05.06
That is a self protective state of free. Those are the three states of Dysregulation in our nervous system. And again, when we're in those states, the only reason you are there is because your nervous system doesn't think you're safe. That's the only reason. Now you may be wondering well, I'm safe now why is it doing that?
0:23:05.16 → 0:23:48.76
And the reason it's doing that, if you do find yourself in safety, meaning like it's safe to start that business, it's safe to use my voice, it's safe to be seen, it's safe to be vulnerable, it's safe to take up space, it's safe to have desires or whatever. That's because your database has information about how that wasn't safe in the past. So every time you go to step towards something similar in your present life, the threat detector says that's not safe. And so part of understanding this nervous system, or why nervous system regulation is so important, is because if we have a database filled with experiences in the past where people weren't safe, being seen wasn't safe, belonging wasn't safe. Being in my body wasn't safe, being present wasn't safe and so on and so forth.
0:23:48.89 → 0:24:30.48
Anytime something similar happens in my current life, my nervous system via my threat detector is going to say that's not safe and an immediate occurrences. I experienced what's called Dysregulation or one of those three states of self protection. I just did a lot of talking, I could explain the state of regulation, but I hope that's beginning to make sense for folks of why we experience this. Thanks Sarah, I really appreciate all of that. And as you were talking, the thing that really struck me is that understanding that is such a portal to compassion both towards ourselves, but also to other people and particularly people who we might be in relationship with.
0:24:30.66 → 0:25:40.26
As you were describing the experience of that dorsal state, I couldn't help but think of that classic anxious avoidant dance and how for a lot of anxious people who spend a lot of time in that sympathetic I've got to do something, do something, do something very activated mobilised state. And those protective mechanisms of moving towards and if they are with a more avoidant leaning partner who tends towards more of a dorsal response of this I'm out of options. Just like how can I vacate? Because I feel kind of defenceless against this and how those responses can just be really at odds and from each person's perspective. The other person's response is such a cue for danger for the person in sympathetic who's desperate for engagement and connection via even if it's via conflict, the person whose system is taking them out, that feels really dangerous and so can just trigger an escalation.
0:25:40.40 → 0:26:26.02
But for the person who's endorsel, who feels like there's a lion coming towards them, it's just impossible. And so I think that it's so useful for people to understand not only their own system but to start to be more attuned to the cues in other people's systems and going, okay, what might be going on for them? How might they be experiencing me as well as what's going on in my system and what do I need? Yeah, it is so important to understand that. That's why I say I do a lot of somatic attachment work and the foundation of all of it that I quickly realised in my work around the nervous system is oh well, you can't do attachment work unless you're doing nervous system work.
0:26:26.20 → 0:27:05.07
The way that we attach is entirely based in our nervous system which is why for any listener who's read like for example, the book Attached, maybe it's the most famous one although I like John Bowlby's book, I mean, both are great but that's a little more dense. But anyway, you read a book and you're like oh, that you got an AHA moment. Ah, that makes sense. But it doesn't actually create any change in your life because that all in books are wonderful but they're cognitive meaning it's giving me understanding of things. But it's really important to understand about your nervous system and how you show up in your relationships is your nervous system is subcortical and that means it lives in your body, not in your thinking brain.
0:27:05.20 → 0:27:48.25
Your nervous system does not understand a verbal language because it doesn't reside where your verbal thinking, your prefrontal cortex, which is in your brain, resides. And this is why we can learn a lot of things but then it doesn't actually affect change in our lives. So the more that we can become get in the driver's seat of our nervous system, the more it changes everything. And what you mentioned about having compassion for or at the very least understanding for what's happening in other people's systems is so imperative because just to quickly name for listeners, here how intricate this system is that I just described. Remember, we all have a database, so what happens when we come into relational dynamics?
0:27:48.30 → 0:27:56.98
A lot of people have had this experience where you meet someone and you're like I feel like. I've known them forever. I'm so drawn to them. I am so attracted to them. I don't know why.
0:27:57.03 → 0:28:15.87
I feel like, how could I possibly live life without them, even though you've only known them for three weeks. And here is why. There's an actual reason for that. Remember, we all have a database, right? And the threat detector's job, it's really its job is to not only suss out danger for you, but it's to say, what does this remind me of?
0:28:15.94 → 0:28:24.60
That's what it's doing all the time. What does this tree remind me of? What does Sarah's voice remind me of? What does the sun right now remind me of? What does this man remind me of?
0:28:24.62 → 0:28:37.92
This woman, this person? And so on and so forth. Anyway, so it looks to the database. So when it comes to love and relationships, guess what it looks to first? It looks to the database and says, what intel do we have on that?
0:28:38.02 → 0:29:02.09
And it looks to your earliest childhood experiences and says, that's the information we have on what love is. Okay? Love is the experience of let's say I'm anxiously attached. My experience of love is I'm just making a possibility up. I have a caregiver who is preoccupied with working all the time or they are not fully available to see me.
0:29:02.24 --> 0:29:11.91
That's what love is. So that's all our system knows. That's what love is. So guess what happens? I meet this person and they are what we would call the word workaholic.
0:29:11.96 → 0:29:48.02
They are really preoccupied with their work. And so my system says, oh, I feel like I've known you forever. I'm so drawn to you because neuroception is saying, you remind me of my childhood and that is what love is. Now, the other person's, Neuroceptive response says, I've got a database too, and in it I have let's say I had a caregiver who was not regulated themselves and whose young parts were looking for me to help them. Maybe the relational dynamic was my mother was looking for me to emotionally soothe her instead of looking to her partner.
0:29:48.16 → 0:29:55.47
And so that's what I have on this database. And she was really anxious a lot. And then I meet you. Whoa. That's what I know.
0:29:55.62 → 0:30:23.98
That is what I'm drawn to. So now we have one person who's avoidant, one person who is anxiously attached coming together, which is the most common combination. Why are they coming together, though, based on what's in that database? That's the whole thing. So we come together and guess what transpires when an occurrence happens, like, let's say an argument occurs, my threat detector says, what intel do I have on arguments?
0:30:24.01 → 0:30:43.13
I'll give another example. The avoidant person says, whoa, I have information about how people harm you. People hurt you. They either emotionally hurt you or they physically hurt you. And so what I learned to do as a child was become an island because there was no one to help me or the people that were there to help me were dangerous.
0:30:43.25 → 0:31:00.93
And so when a fight occurs, my system I'm not doing that. My system takes over like autopilot, and it says, my love, I have to pull you to the island. People aren't safe. And this is reminding me of that. And in a millisecond, we're pulled to that island where we retreat, we shut off.
0:31:01.00 → 0:31:25.85
We feel like we just have to get away now. The anxiously attached person says, whoa, I have intel on being abandoned as a child. And so my system says, I need to do whatever I can to make you stay. And all of a sudden, my sympathetic system comes in and says, what did I need to do back then? Oh, disregard your own needs, disregard your own feelings, say things, just be good, and maybe we can get them to come back.
0:31:25.92 → 0:31:56.19
So we say things like, oh, it doesn't matter, I don't even care. Let's just come back into connection, because I just need us to be connected in order for me to be okay. And in that experience, I call it the island and the speedboat. So the more I go to my island, the more I get in my speedboat and drive to your island, which makes me want to dig a hole in my island and go underneath the island to get away from you, and I want to get even closer to you. And we're in this dynamic which is all rooted in Dysregulation and what's happening in those receptacles.
0:31:56.32 → 0:32:15.13
And not only that, but when this occurs, we essentially are transported back to younger parts of ourselves. So we're no longer in that adult self. It's whatever was in that receptacle. Our threat detector says, this reminds me I was eight. So it's as if we time travel back to being eight.
0:32:15.28 → 0:32:33.95
And this is why, if you've ever been in a situation where you feel like, small, scared, out of control in a relationship, and then later when you feel better, you think, I can't believe I did that. I can't believe I said that. What was going on? Well, it wasn't you. It was your nervous system and a younger part of you.
0:32:34.07 → 0:33:00.35
And so the foundation of our relational experiences, really the foundation of everything, is this nervous system, because that's what's driving how we show up in our relational dynamics. And the more to your point is we can see, oh, them going to their island actually has nothing to do with me. It has to do with what happened to them in the past. And going to that island in the past was the right choice. It was the best choice that they could possibly find.
0:33:00.44 → 0:33:31.28
But that doesn't mean they don't care about me, love me, and so on and so forth. Or this person that's coming towards me doesn't want to control me. They want to feel in control because it can be experienced as that person wants to control me? No, it's because they feel so out of control inside that's why that's occurring, that those behavioural responses. So the more we can see that, the more that it decreases or at least doesn't increase the activation we feel about like wow, you don't care about me or you are trying to suffocate me or whatever.
0:33:31.41 → 0:34:20.58
We can see where it's actually rooted in and not only that, but can say hey, we need to pause and regulate our nervous systems before trying to have this conversation because otherwise we won't even be able to hear each other when we're dysregulated. Our thinking brain isn't working, which is why it feels like you're going round and round in a conversation without hearing each other because you're not hearing each other when you're dysregulating. Yeah, I love that. And I think the image of the speedboat and the island will really resonate with people for me. I've done a lot of work on it, but certainly Lean anxious, and the urgency when you're needing to reach someone that feels like they're slipping away and the sense of emotional abandonment in those moments can feel.
0:34:21.43 → 0:35:16.84
I think the story that a lot of anxious people will relate to is how could you abandon me in this moment when I need you most, when I am escalated and emotional and I'm reaching for you? But it is that thing of the tendency to make the other person's behaviour about you when it really has very little to do with you. And I think that the more we can see that try and step into an observer kind of role, not only does that help us to make better decisions and to regulate and create the space to do that, but I think that for me, at least, even the act of pausing to go, oh, okay, look, I'm getting really activated. That in and of itself is settling to my system because it feels like you're less consumed by the experience and you're able to witness yourself in it a little more. I'd be curious to get your take on in that example.
0:35:17.45 → 0:35:57.23
What would you say to people who feel like they spin around in that cycle? Pretty reliably, which I think without the knowledge and the tools is likely where you will go if those are the patterns in your relationship. You mentioned pausing and that's certainly the advice that I give people is nothing good is going to come of that when one or both of you is dysregulated and likely if one of you is, the other will follow soon thereafter. So pausing I think is a really big one. I think again, for anxious people they may tell themselves the story of that's just giving the avoidant person what they want and what about me?
0:35:57.27 → 0:36:30.85
And so my advice is space with boundaries. So let's take a break for 30 minutes and then agree to come back. And I think that that is kind to both people's system. What would you sort of counsel people on how to manage those dynamics and how best to regulate their system so that they can have conversations, challenging conversations, in a safe way? Yeah, well, first I just want to validate for both parties, it feels like life or death because for a child, that when we're born, we don't have the ability to self regulate.
0:36:30.95 → 0:36:56.89
What that essentially means is it is not physically possible for a child to regulate themselves or calm themselves down when they are dysregulated. The crying it out method actually just brings a kid into dorsal. It doesn't actually regulate them. When a child is in that state of distress with no one there to help regulate them. What a child needs is someone who is in what's called their state of ventral.
0:36:56.94 → 0:37:36.91
So that's our state of regulation. Who picks the child up and doesn't get scared about the child's dysregulation, doesn't say, oh my gosh, you're just so scary, but instead holds them, maybe does something somatically like sways and pass them on the back. And what's called mirror neurons, the adult's nervous system, calms the child's nervous system down. Now, what we know in research around attachment shows is we needed that 30% of the time in order for us to have what's called a secure attachment, which means relationships are to distil it down, filled with relative ease. For us, we feel safe in them, we feel safe with distance and also closeness.
0:37:37.07 → 0:38:04.20
Now, for many of us, we did not get that. And so as a result, what transpires is therein lies the anxious attachment or avoidant or disorganised. So what occurs is when we have a rupture or an argument occur, it's as if we've time travelled to being that infant again. And so you used really interesting words like how could you do this to me? Or those weren't your exact words, but essentially, how could you pull away or do this to me when I need you most?
0:38:04.33 → 0:38:28.67
And what I want listeners, if you say you find yourself saying that that is a young part of you who is saying that to your caregiver, not to your partner. I know it seems like you're saying it to your partner, but where is that rooted in? It is rooted in your childhood. It actually has nothing to do with your caregiver. Not that we don't not and I'm not letting someone off the hook for just disappearing, but why is this here in the first place?
0:38:28.79 → 0:39:08.80
Because a young part of you is present in your body. And here's the thing, I think it's just maybe hard to hear, but really important for listeners to hear that there is no amount of an adult in our lives picking that young part of us up that will ever be enough. So if you're looking for your partner to change and be this really perfect partner, it still wouldn't be enough. My friend and the reason being is because only we can become what I call the primary parent to our young parts. But most people are looking for their partner to pick the young part up, rescue me, save me from this experience.
0:39:09.25 → 0:39:44.93
And it can be helpful for a little bit like a band aid, but it'll just come back again and again. And now I'm in a codependent dynamic. And what we can do, and what I want you to know that this can change, is the more you regulate your nervous system and you become what I call a competent protector. So the adult self, you've got the adult self of you present. What we can begin to do is when we notice this younger part showing up, I can do things to help them to regulate, just like I would with a scared kid, the same exact thing, so that I'm turning towards them and picking them up.
0:39:45.02 → 0:40:09.81
And then my partner can be what I call the secondary parent. So it's not that we don't want our partners help, but not that we're looking for them to rescue us anymore, because they can't ever do it. It's not possible. And that creates a codependent dynamic. So what I would say is, in these dynamics, the work of someone who's anxiously attached is my job is to build my capacity for what's called self regulation.
0:40:10.47 → 0:40:36.98
Co regulation is connecting to other people. To regulate self regulation is learning that I can also regulate with me. And so what I want you to do is what's really important is we don't just practise this when we're in a fight, because that's like if I was a firefighter, but never practised the drills and just went into there's a fire and I had to figure out how to fight fire, I wouldn't be able to do that. They practise, right? So we need to practise when we're not experiencing arguments or fights.
0:40:37.04 → 0:41:06.33
And the practising of someone who's anxiously attached is I want to start seeing, can I do things that can bring my nervous system into regulation? So throughout the day, it might be something like maybe some humming or tapping or swaying or shaking or I'm going to go on a walk by myself. And I've got lots I'm sure you do, to Stephanie. Lots of therapeutic tools that I give folks that are somatic in nature. But there's different things we can do to show our nervous system, hey, I'm safe, and we do that ourselves.
0:41:06.46 → 0:41:35.11
So we want to build our capacity to do that, so that when we're in a relationship, we can tolerate space. And we know that regardless of what's happening in the relationship, I've got you little parts, I'm not going anywhere. So someone who is avoidant, your job is to practise coming off the island, that's not going to feel good at first. So that's called practising co regulation. And we want to do that outside of arguments, like, can I step towards closeness, can I step towards intimacy?
0:41:35.16 → 0:41:47.76
When someone says, how was your day? Instead of just saying it was fine, how was yours? Expand on that. How was your day? When someone says, hey, I want to share vulnerably or intimately with you, instead of saying, how can we do that later?
0:41:47.81 → 0:42:14.90
Can I lean into that a little bit? Or asking for help and so on and so forth, can I lean off the island going on a walk with a friend? And so on and so forth, all of that shows my system connection is safe. So that is what I would say the most important. That's what I focus on because otherwise I'm trying to put a fire out or put a bandaid on without ever practising or building my capacity, which means I'll never be able to change the dynamic.
0:42:14.96 → 0:42:41.50
So that is the most important. And then during the actual argument or experience of a rupture, what I recommend is, number one, remembering this is their nervous system, not them. This is their nervous system right now. And a younger part of them is present, just like a younger part of me is present. And that when you can talk about that, when you're both regulated like, hey, what do you notice happens for you?
0:42:41.60 → 0:43:02.24
And here's what happens for me. And even having a code word, like it doesn't have to be even a big code word. It just could be a phrase like, I think we're both no longer in regulation, or I'm in my speedboat, are you on your island? Or whatever, you can use terms like that, that clue you into. We're both dysregulated.
0:43:02.35 → 0:43:36.83
And so what's necessary is and what I recommend is the avoidant person who needs to go to the island. Otherwise, if they try to force themselves to stay, they're just going to become more shut down. And so them saying and having a word that they say or a phrase they say, I love you and I need to go to the island right now so that I can get myself back. So what I'm doing is I'm extending to you a connection. I love you and I need to go to my island and let's Cheque in in 20 minutes or whatever and see if we can talk about it now.
0:43:36.92 → 0:44:12.41
And the sympathetic or anxiously attached person, your job, which is very important, is to see what can I do to tolerate the space and needed for you to begin to be able to tolerate that space. And how can I comfort these young parts of me which can include connecting with other people as well during that time. And then I just like to say, if the 20 minutes, if the avoidant person is still not back online and regulated, then we want to say, okay, can we try again in 20 minutes? We don't want to say we have to now. So sympathetic person is probably going to say no, but you said 20 minutes.
0:44:12.53 → 0:44:35.89
And the problem with that is if our nervous systems don't have choice, we need choice, it creates Dysregulation. So if we feel like we're trapped in a cage or we're cornered, we will just become Dysregulated. So that we need to have that consistent checking in, but not that like you have to now because that will just increase Dysregulation too. Thank you for that. I love what you say.
0:44:35.93 → 0:45:10.27
And that point I think is really important, that for an anxious person, you're not regulating for them, you're regulating for you. And I think that particularly when the experience or the story might be, what do I need? I need connection with them. That's a quite disempowering place to live, right? To not be able to give ourselves any of that, to be able to self source a sense of safety, to be solely reliant on, I have to tether to this person, otherwise I'm not going to be okay.
0:45:10.47 → 0:45:46.02
And so I think that as you describe being able to be with the discomfort of space and increasing our capacity to hold that, that's not just giving them what they want. That is really important work for you and building your capacity. Yeah, it is the work for someone. It is the most important thing. And that's the beautiful thing I think about all healing work is something one of my mentors, Peter Levine, says, the creator of somatic experiencing.
0:45:46.13 → 0:46:06.20
He says it's never too late to have the childhood we deserve. There's other folks who say similar sayings, but what that really means is the more I do trauma work and somatic work, the more it's very clear to me time is not linear. We are travelling time all the time, anytime you're activated. And it doesn't have to do with there's not present danger in your life. That's a clue.
0:46:06.23 → 0:46:34.74
You've travelled time. In our relationships, we're travelling to the past all the time. So if we can travel back there, meaning I feel like I'm eight years old again or two years old again, then we can also bring our adult selves back to those young parts and finally give them what our caregivers couldn't give them. And when that occurs, my friend, when that happens, we imprint a new childhood experience. And as a result of that, we get what I call an internal secure attachment.
0:46:34.93 → 0:47:04.72
Now my young parts no longer feel unsafe and they no longer are choosing partners or staying in relationships that don't really serve them because they're safe with me. So now I'm making choices in my relationship based on my truth, instead of making choices or with partners based on survival. And it makes everything a whole heck of a lot easier and it all comes within. So yeah, that work is not for the other person, that is for you. Yeah, I love that.
0:47:04.74 → 0:47:31.31
And I think that emphasis on choice is so important. It's like when we're in fear, we feel like we don't have choice. It's like it's life or death, and I'm going to be trapped, and I'm going to be stuck. No matter where you sit on the spectrum, that tends to be the undertone of that experience and resourcing our systems and reminding ourselves we're not there anymore. We're here and now, and we have choice.
0:47:31.81 → 0:48:07.45
We have agency. It always feels like it's me or them. It's my way or their way, right or wrong, villain, victim. It's like, what are the million other possibilities that sit in between those extremes? And I think the more time we can spend in regulation, the more steps we can take towards that, the more those possibilities become available to us, and we can start taking steps towards those because I think that messy middle ground is really where healthy relationships live, rather than at battling between extremes.
0:48:08.11 → 0:48:20.43
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Beautifully said. So I would love to ask you just one more question before we wrap up, if you have time. Something that I get asked a lot is around self trust.
0:48:20.50 → 0:49:06.17
And for people who have really struggled in relationships in the past, perhaps they have really been hurt. That threat detector is very sensitive, and so people might go, okay, when I become really activated, I'm so convinced that there's something wrong, how do I know if that's my system legitimately warning me of a real threat or whether I'm being paranoid, I'm reacting to nothing. How do I know the difference? And what would be your advice for people in navigating that experience and how to respond to that? Well, when we are in that, our system is always going to think that whatever we are experiencing is true and based on what's happening presently.
0:49:06.25 → 0:49:29.44
And here's why. Because when, as I mentioned before, the threat detector, how that works. Like, let's say you haven't heard back from your partner, they're 30 minutes late to getting home, and you had a caregiver who had an affair at work, or even an ex partner who had an affair at work. And you know that your spouse is really fond of a coworker in a very, maybe appropriate way. But we're fond of people.
0:49:29.57 → 0:49:53.25
And all of a sudden, guess what your system does? It looks to the receptacle, and it says, that means they're having an affair and I can't trust them. And this is really bad. And in a millisecond, you're no longer going to be in the present moment thinking of your partner, but you're going to be with that ex partner that cheated on you, or you're going to be in that childhood with that caregiver who had multiple affairs and was never around. And so I'm not in the present moment anymore.
0:49:53.30 → 0:50:11.31
I am back in that experience. And if I asked you in those past experiences, hey, is this truly happening right now? You would say, yeah, it is happening because it was happening. And so that's what occurs when we're dysregulated. So we don't want to ask ourselves, what is my truth right now when we are in that heightened state of Dysregulation?
0:50:11.47 → 0:50:34.13
Instead, what I want you to do is say to yourself, my whole job right now is to get regulated. And I need to do we would need a lot more time to talk about how to regulate. But regulation is I like to say it's a game of show, not tell. We cannot talk our way into it. We have to show our nervous system that we are safe and we are in the present moment because it doesn't understand a verbal language.
0:50:34.18 → 0:50:59.42
Which is why if you've been anxious and you told yourself, just calm down or you're fine, doesn't help. But there are things we can do to regulate. And then when you're feeling more like you, which means you're regulated, you feel present here, capable, able, which might be later that day or the next day, I want you to ask yourself a simple thing and just say, did my reaction match the circumstance of what was happening? Did my reaction match the circumstance? Lovingly ask yourself that.
0:50:59.52 → 0:51:21.90
Not with like, talking yourself out of reality, but just curious. And if I said to myself, you know what, that level of panic didn't seem to match the 30 minutes, or my level of rage didn't seem to match the 30 minutes. Now doesn't let them off the hook. Feeling annoyed or frustrated would match the circumstance. But that level, did that match?
0:51:22.35 → 0:51:38.76
No. So then I want to ask myself, okay, what does this remind me of? If I think about this, have I ever felt this way before? Because that's clueing you into what this is predominantly actually about. If you say, oh, it feels like when I was a little kid, that's who's showing up.
0:51:38.78 → 0:52:04.40
That's what this is predominantly about. That's important because that's the part that needs your help. And then I want to ask yourself, okay, so based on this adult me, that's present now, what do I feel about what happened? Because that's going to tell you how much of the response is actually based in the present. And if you say, that's not okay, yeah, that really isn't okay to me, and I need to know what's going on more or I need to know where they are.
0:52:04.42 → 0:52:34.73
You can't just disappear when you said you're going to be home 30 minutes earlier. And then I can communicate. That need for myself is really helpful so that I can tease out, what's about the past? What's about the present? And then lastly, what we want to do with our adult selves is I invite folks like in that example infidelity to want you to write down, I call it an evidence journal, all the actual data you have of your partner being a safe person, that they're not like that partner in the past or that caregiver.
0:52:34.81 → 0:53:04.67
And I want you to go back to it and as you read it, I want you to feel it in your body, all the evidence you have of how they are different, which helps show your system in that database. They're different, they're different, they're different. So those are the exercises that I like to give folks, just basic ones that can help support when having that kind of experience. Thanks, Sarah. I'm sure that will be really helpful for people because I think in those moments, to have a level of an action plan can be really supportive.
0:53:04.85 → 0:53:37.68
Yeah, you're totally right. So important to have. Okay, well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining me. This has been incredibly helpful, informative, insightful. I have no doubt that for everyone listening, it's going to really offer some powerful reframes on understanding yourself, understanding others, and hopefully really empowering you to take steps towards greater self knowing and being able to build our capacity to be with our range of experiences.
0:53:37.74 → 0:53:55.94
And, as we've said, really step into the driver's seat of that, rather than feeling like we're at the mercy of an unruly horse that's bolted. So, Sarah, thank you so much. Where can people find you if they want to go deeper with you and your work and your programmes? Thank you. First of all, thank you so much for having me.
0:53:55.96 → 0:54:17.79
It's been such an honour to be here. And for anyone listening, I'm so glad we could spend this time together. You can find me@sarahbaldwincoaching.com, you can also find me on Instagram. I do lots of free teaching and events on there at Sarabcoaching. Those are the two places and you can find all of my courses and programmes in either place.
0:54:17.99 → 0:54:28.66
Amazing. And we will link all of that in the show notes for anyone who's interested. Sarah, thank you so much for joining me. Everyone who's listening, thank you so much for joining us. I'll see you again next time.
0:54:31.35 → 0:54:53.98
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.