The Gift of Anxious-Avoidant Relationships

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

So much of the content around attachment theory focuses on the challenges that anxious-avoidant pairings can present. And while those challenges are undoubtedly very real, there are also real gifts within an anxious-avoidant dynamic when the individuals involved are prepared to meet in the middle. Today I’m sharing what those gifts can look like, and tips on making the most of your anxious-avoidant relationship so that it can become a space for healing.

WHAT WE’LL COVER:

• How different attachment styles respond to stress

• Leading with compassion and care

• The work that needs to be done with both attachment styles

• Lessons and opportunities within anxious-avoidant relationships

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Use the code JUNE50 for 50% off 3 masterclasses or the Higher Love Course stephanierigg.com 

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.09 → 0:00:45.48

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's episode is titled The Gift of Anxious Avoidant Relationships and I'm going to be talking all about what some of the maybe under recognised or unexpected upsides of an anxious avoidant relationship can be.

0:00:45.61 → 0:01:45.79

So obviously, most of the discussions that we have around these particular attachment dynamics tend to be focusing on the ways in which it can be really challenging. And I will be the first to acknowledge and admit that it absolutely can present a lot of challenges to navigate those sometimes conflicting attachment dynamics. But I think there's also a reason that this pairing is so very common and there are certainly gifts present in that dynamic when the individuals involved are committed enough and have a capacity to do the work, to meet in the middle. And as a bit of a spoiler alert, I think that we could summarise The Gift of anxious avoidant Relationships as being that it invites us into the middle rather than hanging out at the extremes of our attachment patterns, which might be ostensibly conflicting. It really does invite us off the ledge and find some healthier way of being that is more akin to a secure centre point.

0:01:45.94 → 0:02:49.26

So I'm going to be sharing that today what those gifts can look like and where the growth edge for a more anxious leaning person versus a more avoidant leaning person can lie in those dynamics. And I suppose also some tips on how you can make sure that you're making the most of your anxious avoidant relationship so that it can be a healing relationship rather than one that reinforces painful patterns and old ways of being that maybe entrench you in your insecurity rather than inviting you into those new healing experiences. So that's what today is all about. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. A reminder again that for the month of June you can save 50% off my Masterclasses, including my best selling how to Navigate Anxious Avoidant Relationships masterclass, which is very much on theme with today's episode, so you can save 50% with the code June 50 on my website.

0:02:49.36 → 0:03:24.23

You can also go to the new On Attachment website onattachment.com and all of that is there should be relatively straightforward to find. My Master classes and my Higher Love course which is my breakup course is also on sale, so you can cheque that out for the month of June while I am gallivanting around Italy, you can enjoy a discount on my courses. Second quick announcement is just to share the featured review. This was a comment from Spotify which is stephanie is so insightful, sometimes hard to hear the information she shares is necessary and absolutely powerful. She's helped me to create change in how I show up in relationships.

0:03:24.31 → 0:03:46.78

Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I really appreciate it. And I agree. I think this stuff is hard to hear sometimes, but maybe it's the stuff that is hard to hear that is the most important to hear because it does hold up that mirror and invite us to get honest and get curious about our part in a dynamic. And that is ultimately what creates the possibility of growth and change.

0:03:46.88 → 0:04:26.88

So I'm glad that that's been your experience. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes. Okay, so let's dive into this big conversation around the gift of anxious avoidant relationships. Now, as I foreshadowed in the introduction, I will not lie to you and say that these dynamics are easy, that it's really not that hard, and you just have to do a three step plan and then all of a sudden you are free of the challenges that can arise in this anxious avoidant dynamic. That would be dishonest, and it's certainly not been my personal experience either.

0:04:26.93 → 0:05:22.91

I have been through the ringer, I've experienced a not so good anxious avoidant relationship and my current relationship, which I certainly lean more anxious and my partner leans more avoidant. But we've managed to navigate those dynamics in a way that feels so much healthier but also really healing for us both. It has allowed us to both relearn and rewire and reprogram a lot of our old stories around what it means to be in relationship, what it means to love and be loved, to depend on someone. And so I'm speaking today not only as coach and teacher, but also as human who has walked this path and continues to walk this path. So anxious avoidant relationships can be challenging.

0:05:22.99 → 0:05:51.41

We all know that most people listening are either in one or have been in one. And so we all know that that can be hard, right? For very obvious reasons. Some of the core needs around relationship things like connection, intimacy, time spent together, whole attitude and approach to needs, conflict. Anxious people and avoidant people can really differ in the strategies that they use to create safety for themselves.

0:05:51.50 → 0:06:20.91

And this is essentially what we're talking about when we're talking about attachment styles is how do I respond to stress in relationship? For an anxious person, their response to stress and stress is usually caused by distance or uncertainty. I go in, right? I try and close the gap, I try to get closer to you to restore connection, which makes me feel safe again. For a more avoidant person, the way to deal with stress is I need to retreat, I need to create distance for myself.

0:06:21.08 → 0:06:58.32

And the cause of stress is likely to be feeling smothered or feeling like there's been a loss of self or loss of independence, feeling criticised, feeling blamed, feeling controlled or attacked. And so we have these conflicting wounds and seemingly conflicting strategies because in times of stress, and most often in relationships, stress is contagious. So if one person is stressed, the other will become stressed. And in this time of stress, team Anxious wants to close the gap and team Avoidant wants to widen the gap. And so it really can be hard for both people to get what they need in those moments when you are feeling stress in your relationship.

0:06:58.45 → 0:07:35.79

So just wanted to set the scene and acknowledge like, yes, this can be really challenging. And all of the dynamics that flow from that, all of the behaviours and all of the permutations of that dynamic essentially boil down to the differing approaches to stress management. I always really appreciate that way of viewing these attachment dynamics because I think that it's very humanising and very compassionate. And despite the fact that the strategies look different, the core desire is I'm trying to create safety for myself. And so it's much harder to blame or judge someone for doing the same thing that we're doing.

0:07:35.86 → 0:08:07.54

They're just doing it in a different way, they're just trying to create safety the same way you are, and they just might have learned a different strategy. So while that starting point, and I think again, it'd be fair to acknowledge that most couples do not have the tools, do not have the capacity to get out of that rut. Because the vast majority of us go through life, go through relationships blind, more or less, we are on autopilot and that is simply because we are doing what we've always done, right? We're doing what we've learned. And those strategies have served a purpose in our lives.

0:08:07.59 → 0:08:42.94

They've kept us safe and so we will continue to do them until we have a level of conscious awareness around them and awareness of the impact that they're having and the ways in which they might actually be inhibiting us from experiencing the kind of relationship that we desire. But in times of stress, we get selfish, right? And we become really tunnel visioned and we default to our tried and tested strategies for creating safety. So how do we shift these patterns in a way that allows us to access the gift of anxious avoidant relationships? This is really the essence of the work, right?

0:08:43.12 → 0:09:58.74

And it's so, so powerful and so, so important and it's something that I really deeply believe in at a fundamental level, because I do believe that when done right, this dynamic can heal us, right? So what does this look like? I already alluded to the importance of compassion, and I think that the more we can see someone with compassionate eyes and get curious about them, as well as getting curious about our own stuff, all of a sudden there's these new possibilities that emerge because instead of seeing that person as a threat which is what we will all do by default when we feel stressed in relationship we see lions everywhere, we start to see them as a person in fear and we start to be able to relate to them with a compassionate heart and with that energy of care. And I think that from that place we can start considering oh okay, this person that I love and care about is feeling stressed, how can I support them, what might they need? And finding ways to access that and really take steps towards a middle ground, as I said before, it's like coming off our ledges at the extremes and taking steps towards the centre where we can find space for both of us to exist and thrive here.

0:09:58.84 → 0:10:51.35

So how do we then access this gift of anxious avoidant relationships? How do we shift into growth mode in our anxious avoidant relationship rather than pain mode or stuck mode? And I think the thing I want to focus on here and that I want to invite you to focus on is that for the anxious person in any relationship, your primary work is in your relationship with yourself. Because your baseline focus is always going to be on safety via the other person or security via the other person to a degree that is an over indexation, meaning I am overly reliant on you to make me feel safe. I have an underdeveloped capacity for self regulation and for self soothing and for being with myself.

0:10:51.47 → 0:11:32.39

And so that is your work. And you will have heard me say that before on the podcast, that the greatest gift you can give yourself as a more anxious leaning person, whether you are single or in a relationship, is to build up your comfort. Level with being by yourself or diversifying your energy so that you don't become so exclusively focused on your relationship as the source of all satisfaction and worth and comfort in your life. Because I think that is the default mode for a lot of anxious people. So the anxious person's primary work is in self regulation and self focus pivoting from focus on the other back to focus on the self.

0:11:32.51 → 0:12:39.96

Contrast this with the avoidant person's primary work which is in co regulation because their ability to be with self is pretty well developed and arguably the avoidant person tends to be overly reliant on their very well developed capacity to be either alone or to self regulate or to be comfortable with their own company. And so when you're in an anxious avoidant relationship, as the anxious person, you are going to be called to do the very work that is most important for you to do more broadly, which is become more comfortable with self regulation because your avoidant partner is likely to test that in you. Right. They are going to give you plenty of opportunity to work on that growth edge, which is being by yourself or being able to self soothe. Because if they have a greater preference, for example, independence or time apart or space, that's going to really test you.

0:12:40.06 → 0:13:45.54

And again you can either use those tests as an opportunity to reenact old patterns, to spiral, to escalate, to protest, to make meaning out of the fact that they need more time or space or whatever it might be. Or you can take that as the training ground and go okay, this is my opportunity to build up my own capacity to be with myself. Rather than, for example when your partner is wanting some space or they're doing stuff on their own that doesn't involve you, rather than just counting down the minutes until you're going to come back into connection, you get to see what is possible in that space in your own relationship with yourself, in your life. And whether that's spending more time cultivating friendships or hobbies or other points of interest in your own life rather than feeding the tendency to over index on your relationship which is, as I said, an easy place to go for most anxious people. Now for the avoidant person, you are going to get called into your growth work as well.

0:13:45.59 → 0:15:08.46

Because if your growth work is in increasing your comfort level with closeness and intimacy and connection co regulation, learning to meet someone else's needs or to increase your capacity to be needed, then your anxious partner is going to give you plenty of opportunities to work on that as well because they do have really high connection needs. They do want to be close to you, they do want affection and love in a very overt way and so they are going to call you into your growth edge, they are going to test you and they are going to invite you to step towards those experiences. That might be uncomfortable but it might just be the exact medicine that you need. And again, you can see that it can be either healing or if you let the old patterns take you into their grip then you might experience that as oh, these people are too much, it's too overwhelming, too demanding, too needy, not safe, right? But can you see here that for both people their primary work is being called forward in this relationship and if there is enough safety, if there is enough commitment and love and care and respect in the relationship, then you will both be invited into the medicine that you need in order to become more whole, right?

0:15:08.59 → 0:15:52.97

So again, for the anxious person, wholeness lies in finding more balance within yourself by building up the self part. And for the avoidant partner, wholeness lies in finding that balance by building up the togetherness part because the self part is already well developed. And so through this dynamic you both get to meet in the middle. You both get to become more whole and more balanced individually and relationally. So that is what I wanted to offer you as an insight into the gift of anxious avoidant relationships, both as a reminder of your individual work, if you are more anxious or more avoidant, a reminder of the essence of your work.

0:15:53.12 → 0:16:48.13

And of course, that can look like a lot of different things in Practise, but that is kind of the North Star and reminding yourself if you're in an anxious avoidant dynamic, that that is your work within the relationship as well. So the next time you're being frustrated or hurt or triggered, reminding yourself, what is the lesson for me here? What's the opportunity? Am I digging in my heels at an extreme place and am I reenacting or entrenching or reinforcing old patterns? Is there an opportunity for me to step off the ledge and take steps towards the centre, to cultivate more wholeness and more balance within myself, more trust and safety in my relationship in a way that will allow it to be healing and restorative rather than fracturing and reinforcing of those old painful patterns?

0:16:48.23 → 0:17:32.21

So I hope that that's given you something to think about and maybe given you some hope if you are in an anxious avoidant relationship. As I said at the start, I know that the dominant discourse around this tends to be quite negative in focus, emphasising the ways in which this dynamic is painful and hard, doomed even, depending on who you listen to. So I hope that it gives you a sense of what's possible and the opportunities that exist for you within this dynamic when it's done right. If you've enjoyed this episode, so grateful as always. If you can leave a five star rating or review, you can leave a little comment on Spotify, share it with the people in your life, share it on social media, it all helps so much and I appreciate all of you and I look forward to seeing you again next time.

0:17:32.30 → 0:17:56.04

Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.

How Do I Get My Avoidant Partner To Open Up?

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

This week, I’m answering the community question, “How do I get my avoidant partner to open up?”. I’ll dive into how to pave the way for more genuine, authentic connection and what that looks like for people with avoidant attachment styles and anxious attachment styles within relationships.

WHAT WE’LL COVER:

• Preferences of wanting to receive information

• Trust wounds in avoidant partners

• Self-serving behaviour that could be impacting this issue

• Insight into their experience

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Use the code JUNE50 for 50% off 3 masterclasses or the Higher Love Course - www.stephanierigg.com

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.09 → 0:00:30.08

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment.

0:00:30.22 → 0:01:02.23

In today's episode, I'm going to be answering the community question of how do I get my avoidant partner to open up more? So this is a very frequently asked question, as you can imagine. I know that it's something a lot of more anxious partners struggle with and really desire is to have more depth and connection with their partner, particularly a partner who leans more avoidant. So I'm going to be unpacking that a little today. And importantly, and I would say more importantly than the actual, how do I get my partner to open up more?

0:01:02.32 → 0:01:59.10

As you can imagine, if you are familiar with my work and my philosophy, I think the more revealing inquiry here is what is it within me that needs to control or influence that? What part of me feels unsafe with them not telling me everything right away or feeling like I can't reach parts of them, how much of my desire to get them to open up is about them versus me? And I think that when we can get a little curious about that and take responsibility and really own the parts of us that maybe want to control someone or want to change them, want them to be more like us or as we would like them to be, then we're more able to approach those situations with a level of conscious awareness. And hopefully that will pave the way for more genuine, authentic connection, rather than connection that is, with a motive of control attached to it. So that's what we're going to be talking about today.

0:01:59.20 → 0:02:40.00

Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements you might have heard me share in the last episode that for the month of June I am offering a 50% off sale on my online courses and master classes. So included in that is my Higher Love course, which is my breakup course, and my three master classes how to navigate anxious, avoidant relationships, better boundaries and sex and attachment. So for the month of June, you can use the code June 50 on my website, the checkout area, to save 50% on all of those products. So if you've been interested in going a little deeper with my work, now is a great time to do that. We'll link all of that in the show notes for you.

0:02:40.77 → 0:03:05.15

Second announcement is just to share the featured review, which is Stephanie's an incredible teacher on attachment. Not only theories covered, but so many good examples of practical implementation. I've had experiences learning about attachment theory that made me feel like I'm a bad person because of how I tend to behave in relationships with Stephanie. I never feel that I've learned so much from listening to her, and I've only just scratched the surface on the many episodes available. Also, her voice is very pleasant and soothing.

0:03:05.20 → 0:03:24.76

She has a wonderful accent, and her way of facing her words makes it very easy to understand. Thank you so much, Stephanie. You're making a huge contribution by creating this valuable content. Thank you so much for that beautiful review. It's kind of you to say that my voice is very pleasant and soothing because I got a message from someone on Instagram yesterday telling me to please make my voice more professional because it sounded unnatural.

0:03:24.82 → 0:03:52.47

So apparently you can't please everybody, but it's nice to have the alternative perspective. So thank you so much for your review and your kind words. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com, and my team will set you up with free access to one of those master classes that I mentioned a little while ago. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around how do I get my avoidant partner to open up? So let's acknowledge the starting point for anxious people.

0:03:52.62 → 0:04:34.60

Disclosure. And arguably, over disclosure is a way to fast track connection a lot of the time. So even if it's very early in the dating process, something that a lot of anxious people will relate to is, I want to tell you everything about me, and I want you to tell me everything about you as a way to fast track us to depth. Right. I don't want to hang out in this in between uncertain thing where our relationship isn't really intense yet, and I lean on disclosure as a way to bypass that in between stage that uncertainty and fast track us straight to really intense connection.

0:04:34.79 → 0:05:28.13

So as is the case a lot of the time, noticing that as an anxious person, you probably sit at one extreme or one end of the spectrum when it comes to disclosure or opening up. And sometimes that can be maybe over disclosure, so it can be a lack of boundaries. I think that if we look at some of those descriptors of the various attachment styles, you'll see anxious people over disclose, avoidant people are very protective of disclosure and might under disclose or not share much of themselves with someone. And secure attachment is somewhere in the middle, right? I share an appropriate amount with people, but I don't blurt out everything and all of my deepest, darkest secrets and my history and my family struggles and my trauma and everything, because that might be too much too soon.

0:05:28.25 → 0:06:23.76

So I suppose I say that just to invite you to reflect on am I sitting at one extreme and judging someone or expecting them to meet me in my version of doing things my way, which maybe isn't healthy either. And I think that we can see that kind of dynamic play out a lot in anxious avoidant relationships is that we tussle over which extreme should win out, when really the goal is to meet in the middle. So I think when it comes to getting someone to open up, we first have to acknowledge that that is driven by our preference from the other extreme. Now, that is not to say that desiring connection with someone via feeling like you know them on a deep level is problematic. I don't think that it is problematic.

0:06:23.82 → 0:06:59.53

I think that's really understandable and natural and can be healthy at the same time. We do need to acknowledge that there can be a level of protectiveness from the avoidant person around sharing parts of themselves with other people. There can be trust wounds. Certainly for more fearful avoidant people, there can be a real betrayal, fear and not trusting in people's good intentions and feeling like the more I share of myself with you, the more potential you have to use that against me or hurt me. So I want to keep you at arm's length.

0:06:59.58 → 0:07:37.50

Or maybe if I do share something with you, then I retreat because I feel like I really regret sharing things with you. But I think that we do have to get really curious around how much of me wanting you to open up is because I genuinely want to know you better from an open hearted, agenda free kind of way. And how much of it is because I can't tolerate the distance that I perceive from not being able to reach you, from there being things about you that I don't know. Because as we know for anxious people, information feels safe. The more information we have, the more in control we feel.

0:07:37.55 → 0:08:01.08

The less information we have, the more out of control we feel. That uncertainty tends to feel really destabilising and can feel like you can't mobilise to keep yourself safe because you don't know what you're dealing with. And those blanks we tend to fill in with worst case scenarios, right? We catastrophize, why would they hide something from me? Why wouldn't they share it with me?

0:08:01.53 → 0:08:33.15

It must be something really bad or they don't like me, or there's something awry here. We become very, very suspicious of someone not sharing everything with us. Again, because our preference and our baseline is to share everything with everyone in a way that again, we use that to fast track connection. So we are suspicious and judgmental of the ways in which someone might be different to us and we think that it necessarily spells trouble. So I do think that we have to get honest and own.

0:08:33.30 → 0:09:11.50

How much of this is me wanting you to open up? Because I want to feel more connected to you and how much of it is I would feel more in control of you and our relationship and I would feel safer if I had more information. Because the more information I have, the more options I have, the more strategies I feel like I have at my disposal. To troubleshoot, to problem solve, to preempt something bad happening. But without that information, I feel like I'm going in blind to this situation where I feel like I'm going to have to protect myself and not going to be able to do that because I'm not armed with that information.

0:09:11.87 → 0:09:50.61

I think the other piece of this is that the other kind of self serving piece and as always, I say self serving not in a judgmental way because I am guilty of all of these things. But the other self serving thing can be if you loved me, you would tell me, right? That's the logic from the anxious side. It's if you really cared about this relationship, you would share everything with me. And so the fact that you don't want to share certain things with me or you're not opening up to me makes me feel rejected or unloved or suspicious or any other thing.

0:09:50.65 → 0:10:43.75

But I'm making it mean something about how much you care about me or how much you love me. And again, that is a very good example of projecting what something would mean if it were us onto someone else who's very different to us. So just recognising all of those different limbs that might be playing out here that might be influencing your need for someone else to be a certain way and how much of that is genuinely about them and how much of it is about you and arguably about control. So putting that to one side and that's kind of a whole inquiry in and of itself is all of the pieces within us that want to get someone to open up and actually looking at, okay, what would be the conditions which would support someone to feel like they could open up? And for an avoidant person, we have to look at the core wounds and the fears there.

0:10:43.79 → 0:11:21.45

And a lot of the time that is around, I don't want to be controlled. I don't want to feel like someone is trying to take away my privacy, my independence, my selfhood. And so feeling like someone is literally or figuratively looming over them and demanding that they open up or making them wrong for not opening up on someone else's timeline, that's usually going to exacerbate it rather than alleviate it. Right. That's going to really lead them to dig their heels in and reinforce the need for self protection rather than to support them to feel safe.

0:11:21.55 → 0:11:48.29

You can't just demand that someone feel safe enough to open up to you. You have to kind of earn that. And earning that might mean building trust incrementally over time and releasing the grip on trying to control someone or trying to make demands of them that are more than they are able to give at a certain point in a relationship or a certain point in their own journey. Right? This stuff can feel intensely vulnerable and unsafe.

0:11:48.39 → 0:12:47.18

And I think we have to really remind ourselves of that rather than just asking these questions of how can I get them to do this thing that I want them to do. There's a lot more in it than that. I think the important thing to add to all of this is it's really reasonable and understandable to want to know that someone is connected to their own emotional landscape. And I think to the extent that your desire to get your partner to open up is because it feels unsafe or otherwise destabilising to you to feel like there's something going on that not only you don't understand, but your partner doesn't understand. If you listen to a recent episode I did with Connor Beaton, a guest that I had on, he works a lot with men, and we spoke in that episode in the context of men that what we really desire from someone in partnership is, can I trust that you know what's going on with you?

0:12:47.36 → 0:13:19.91

And you have self awareness around that, and you have the tools and the resources to do whatever you need to do to take care of it. And I think that that is really the crux of it. And when we feel like someone is not only cloistered but also in denial about there being something wrong or something that needs their attention, that's when it starts to feel really unsafe. And that's where on the anxious side, you probably start escalating and going into this panicky frenzy of, you have to tell me there's something wrong. I know there's something wrong.

0:13:19.95 → 0:13:46.44

Why aren't you telling me? Just open up to me. Because we feel like if they don't understand what's going on with them or they don't know, then how are they going to take care of it? And that can feel really unsafe and really stressful. So I think that that aspect of it, to the extent that that's your experience, feeling like you don't have trust in the fact that they're self aware enough to know what's going on for them and to manage that for themselves, I think that's really understandable.

0:13:46.47 → 0:14:28.17

And maybe the middle ground then is to say I don't need you to tell me everything that's going on. But it would be helpful for me if you could just reassure me that whatever it is that you've got it under control, or that you're taking care of it, or some other reassurance that isn't. I need you to bear your soul to me so that I can launch in and fix it and go into that Caretaker mode, but at least give me some sort of insight into what you're experiencing and what you're going to do about it. Right? And I think when we can ask for that from a more restrained place rather than a demanding place and a place that's tell me what's going on for you, and then I'm going to mobilise straight away into trying.

0:14:28.18 → 0:15:02.66

To fix it, which might feel like a boundary violation for the other person. Or we can do it in a more restrained way, in a more trusting way, a way that says I trust you and I respect you. And I know that you'll take care of it, but it would really help if I could get a little insight into what you're going through that feels more balanced and that feels like more of a healthy middle ground, rather than poking and prodding and demanding that someone open up so that you feel better about it. So I suppose it's a long winded way of saying how do I get someone to open up? I don't know that you do get someone to open up.

0:15:02.68 → 0:15:54.75

I think people open when they're ready and if they're opening before they're ready because you've made them, that's probably not a great outcome, is it? We really want people to open from a place of a natural unfolding and unfurling of their authentic self in a way that feels really true and honest rather than getting someone to share parts of themselves that they're not ready to share or that they feel really reluctant to share. And then that being cloaked in fear or self protection and probably not feeling that great on either side. I think when we can trust that in time, if we are loving and respectful and trusting of one another, that that revealing just happens. It takes place naturally because the safety is established between you in a really genuine way.

0:15:54.90 → 0:16:21.73

And so I think that if you can cultivate that patience and trust rather than needing someone to operate on your timeline of opening up or revealing themselves or disclosing certain things, then I think that that's maybe the better path. Now, of course, all of the caveats, all of the what about this? What about this? What about someone lying to me? Or I'm not talking about any of that.

0:16:21.77 → 0:17:01.23

Right? Really talking about sharing emotionally disclosing things about fears and insecurities recognising that that's much harder for some people than others. And that doesn't mean that they're bad or wrong or broken, but just trying to accept our partner's process and trust their ability to make those decisions for themselves rather than feeling like we need to step in and steward their personal development process for them. Which, as I've said, I think is a really easy place for more anxious people to go. But it costs us a lot because once we step into that role of coach or therapist or caretaker, that can become the balance point in the relationship.

0:17:01.35 → 0:18:03.28

And that can be the role that we cement ourselves into, which for a time might feel good because we might feel needed or we might feel in control, but ultimately it costs us a lot because then who's there to support us when we've anointed ourselves, the support person in the relationship? It can skew things in a direction that ultimately doesn't serve us. So I realised that was a lot of different limbs and thoughts and reflections and probably wasn't the answer you were looking for if you were hoping for a nice, neat three step process on how to get an avoidant person to open up. But I hope that it's given you something a little more nuanced and layered to reflect upon, and ultimately an invitation into greater self awareness, greater self responsibility, and maybe more acceptance of your partner and more trust and respect for them in a way that will naturally give rise to opening and safety in your relationship. If you've enjoyed this episode, as always, I'm super grateful.

0:18:03.34 → 0:18:26.53

For those of you who can leave a quick review or a rating or a feedback little comment thing on Spotify, share it with the people in your life. It all really helps and adds up and is a huge support for me in continuing to get the word out about the podcast. Otherwise, I look forward to joining you again next time. Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment.

0:18:26.63 → 0:18:45.70

If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to you again soon.

5 Reasons Why People Cheat

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

A couple of weeks ago, I shared my thoughts on if “once a cheater, always a cheater” is true, and today I’m continuing the conversation around the reasons why people cheat in a relationship and getting curious around what’s driving these behaviours. For some people this may be a challenging episode to listen to, so please make sure you’re in the right mindset to listen.

WHAT WE’LL COVER:

• Wounds around worthiness

• Disconnection and loneliness

• Feeling like it’s the easy way out

• Being seen through rose coloured glasses

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Use the code JUNE50 for 50% off 3 masterclasses or the Higher Love Course -stephanierigg.com 

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.09 → 0:00:34.30

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. It's hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, we are talking all about infidelity.

0:00:34.49 → 0:01:40.88

Now, this is a big topic and it's a really sensitive topic and for some people it's a really hard topic if you have been in the position of being cheated on or otherwise grappling with some sort of betrayal in your relationship. So I just want to say at the outset that for some people this might be a really challenging episode to listen to and so obviously be discerning and make sure that you are in the right state of mind. If you are someone who does struggle to talk and hear about this and might be challenged by what we're going to talk about today. So I'm going to be sharing five reasons why people might cheat in a relationship. And there are so many disclaimers that I want to add here, because I think that it's so important to understand that when we seek to get curious about why someone might do something like cheating in their relationship, that that curiosity is in no way intended to justify, to explain, to excuse behaviours that are harmful and that do amount to a breach of trust, do amount to a betrayal.

0:01:40.96 → 0:02:44.94

So letting both of those be true, right? Holding in one hand the curiosity while also allowing yourself to feel if you have been cheated on, allowing yourself to feel all of the things that you feel, because that's perfectly understandable and very human for that to be an extremely painful experience. So in no way is any discussion of reasons why someone might do this intended to excuse or explain away that behaviour, to justify it or make it okay. But I think that it's important for us to get curious because the simple fact of the matter is that cheating is really, really common, much more so than we'd like to believe, but it is very, very prevalent. And so I think we have to get curious around what's going on here, what's driving these behaviours and how can we seek to understand that and maybe seek to build relationships with ourselves and with others that don't fall prey to this.

0:02:44.99 → 0:03:38.70

And again, I'm choosing my words very carefully because in no way am I suggesting that if you've been in relationship or you are in relationship with someone where there's been infidelity, not suggesting it is your responsibility to improve the relationship single handedly so that your partner doesn't cheat, right? This is complex. That's why I am treading lightly because there's a lot in this, and particularly if you're someone who is more anxiously attached, there's a good chance that you are experiencing a lot of self blame and a lot of responsibility taking. If this has happened to you feeling like you should have done more or could have done something differently, or that it was your fault in some way if your partner cheated on you and feeling that urge to fix it and to close the gap between you. So that was a bit of a long intro, but it speaks to the delicacy and complexity of this topic.

0:03:38.76 → 0:04:24.99

So please know that I'm going to do my best to deal with this in a sensitive way while also asking the hard questions and delving a little into what can be under the surface. And my hope is that in doing so, we can depersonalise a little. Because as we'll see in today's discussion, none of these five reasons are because their partner is not good enough, or because their partner is not attractive, or their partner is insert whatever harmful thing you might have been telling yourself that makes this your fault. Right? In the vast majority of cases, I would say people cheat because of their own stuff, whether that's unmet needs or disconnection or shame or unworthiness or any of the other things we'll get into today.

0:04:25.14 → 0:05:05.74

I think it's very rare that it's as simple as, oh, I'm just not attracted to my partner, or oh, I just want a cheap thrill and so I'm going to go and have a fling with someone. I think those cases are really the minority. I think oftentimes there's much more complicated stuff going on on an individual level under the surface that drive people to these patterns. It's really very much a sign of our shadow working. So hopefully, even if it is hard to hear, it will help you to see that if you've been cheated on, if you've been in this situation, that a lot of it is not about you and probably mostly all of it is not about you.

0:05:05.79 → 0:05:58.22

So it might, at the very least, alleviate some of that self blame and shame and the low self worth that can flow from these situations. Before I dive into the meat of today's conversation, a couple of quick announcements. If you're listening to this, by the date that this is released, I will be in Italy running my first retreat, which is very, very exciting. Then I will be travelling around Italy for the month of June and I've decided while I'm away I will continue to have podcasts coming out, but I'm going to offer 50% off on all of my Master classes and my Higher Love course, which is my Breakup course. So if you use the code June 50 on my website on any of those three Master classes, or my Higher Love course, you can save 50% on those.

0:05:58.27 → 0:06:30.53

So that is as big a discount as I ever give. So, as a great opportunity over this next month while I am travelling, to get in on some of those programmes at a great price. So you can head to stephaniereg.com or via the link in the show notes and use the code June 50 to save 50% on any of those online products. Second quick announcement is just to share the featured review for today, which is I'm so grateful I found this podcast. As a therapist, it's been really helpful in deepening my understanding about attachment in a gentle and non shaming way.

0:06:30.65 → 0:06:47.61

The podcast is very relatable and easy to digest. Not only do I personally get so much from the podcast, but I can also recommend it to clients. Thanks so much for sharing your wisdom. Thank you for that beautiful review. I'm honoured that you are not only finding it personally helpful, but are able to share it with the people that you're working with.

0:06:47.65 → 0:07:06.55

That's beautiful to see the ripple effect of this work and to see it helping so many people. So thank you for your support. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com. My team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes of your choice. Okay, let's dive into this conversation.

0:07:06.65 → 0:07:28.67

Five reasons why people might cheat in their relationship. Now, again, I know that I tend to go heavy on the disclaimers, but I think when they're important conversations like this, and heavy and sensitive conversations, it's important to frame them appropriately. This is not an exhaustive list of if you've been cheated on. It must have been one of these five reasons. It's not the only five reasons.

0:07:28.77 → 0:07:42.14

These are five reasons why people might cheat. Okay? So take all of that with all of the grains of salt, be discerning. As always, I will trust you to take what works, what is helpful from this and leave what doesn't. Okay?

0:07:42.27 → 0:08:30.67

The first reason why people cheat in their relationships is unworthiness. So this can show up in a lot of different ways. And I think that most of us have some level of unworthiness, some kind of wound around worthiness. If you listen to my previous episode with Vienna Farron, she talks about the worthiness wound as one of the key origin wounds and how we all have some level of worthiness wound. But for those who really struggle with extremely low self worth, there can be a sense of I don't feel that I am worthy of the relationship that I have, I don't feel deserving of the relationship that I have, I don't have any self respect, I hate myself or I don't like myself.

0:08:30.82 → 0:09:26.21

And so I may as well do this thing that maybe because it feels good, maybe because I get attention, maybe because I get validation, maybe because I just feel so thoroughly undeserving of the person I'm in relationship with. But that unworthiness wound can have a lot of tendrils or tentacles that come from it that can lead us to really behave in shadowy ways. So it can just lead us to kind of want to blow things up for ourselves, or maybe not to see the point in trying in relationships or to just do what feels fun and cheap and easy rather than what feels in integrity. And again, I think that can really come from a lack of self respect and a lack of self trust and self boundaries. All of these things that I think are symptoms of a fundamental sense of unworthiness.

0:09:26.79 → 0:10:13.71

So noticing that and really recognising, that an unworthiness wound. While that's not going to drive everyone to infidelity, it certainly can be a way that we can sabotage our relationships from a place of feeling like we don't deserve them, that we're not worthy of love. And whether that's trying to destroy what we have, or whether it's desperately seeking the cheap win of someone else's attention or validation, I think that unworthiness can definitely be a factor in driving people to infidelity in their relationships. Okay, the next one that I want to share is loneliness or disconnection. So this one's probably more relational than the others.

0:10:13.91 → 0:11:01.37

So in circumstances where we feel disconnected and I think that this probably is more true of more avoidant leaning people, that there can be this sense of I feel disconnected from you, I feel like you don't like me anyway, you're always angry at me, you're always upset with me. And so I feel kind of like you don't care anyway. I feel so far away from you, we're so unhappy I may as well cheat because our relationships kind of in the dust anyway. And so there can be these mental acrobatics that people do of you wouldn't care anyway. Our relationship is practically over.

0:11:01.49 → 0:11:33.27

It's all a sham anyway. We're going to break up. So I might as well just follow this thing. Whether it's again like a cheap one off or whether it's exploring a connection with someone new. I think that sense of the primary relationship being really frayed and disconnected that people can justify infidelity as not so much revenge, but a sense of someone being so indifferent towards them for such a long time.

0:11:33.31 → 0:12:21.99

And the immense loneliness that flows from that and the immense disconnection. And I think that loneliness within a relationship is very, very sad and very, very common, that people feel so much suffering because the person who is meant to be their source of safety and comfort, their rock, their stability, that source of companionship is actually the source of a lot of pain and disappointment and sadness and grief. And I think that the loneliness that flows from that can be so immense that we want to blame that person and we want to justify our own selfish behaviours by pointing to that and saying, well, what would you expect me to do? You haven't paid attention to me in years. Or, you never even care when I do this.

0:12:22.03 → 0:12:57.78

Or why would you care if I go and have an affair? With someone or cheat on you. So I think that that kind of story, that version of events is usually coming from a place of loneliness or disconnection. The next one that I want to share is sabotage. So for some people, and this can be conscious or not, for some people, they want out of the relationship or they feel so overwhelmed by the relationship, maybe they feel very triggered by it, maybe they struggle with avoidance and they can't bring themselves to actually end the relationship.

0:12:57.91 → 0:13:40.51

So they just try and torpedo it with behaviour that they think is going to be a non negotiable deal breaker for their partner. So they might sabotage the relationship by cheating, by doing something really reckless, by making a bad decision. And sometimes they can do this in a way that they feel like they're going to get caught and they almost want to get caught. Again, that might be conscious or not. But when we feel like we don't want to directly say to someone, I'm not happy, or I don't want to be with you, or any other thing that might make them very sad and upset and hurt, sometimes turning ourselves into the villain or into the bad guy feels like the easy way out.

0:13:40.63 → 0:14:28.94

Somewhat ironically, obviously, it's not a situation that we think of as pleasant or easy, but in a twisted way, sometimes making yourself into the villain feels like an easier option than just going to a partner and saying, I don't love you anymore, I'm not happy here, or I want out of this relationship. Sometimes leaning towards a big blow up that sort of takes the decision out of your hands and makes someone just so angry and furious that you've crossed a clear line and there's no turning back. Sometimes that allows us to bypass some of the messy stuff of just being vulnerable about how we're feeling in a situation. So that sabotage. And again, this can show up in a lot of different ways, a lot of different permutations and situations.

0:14:29.00 → 0:15:23.89

But I think that wanting out of the relationship and sabotaging it through infidelity as a way to really tip you over that clear line of a breach of trust that will hopefully remove a lot of the conversation and the negotiation that might otherwise happen. That is a strategy that some people can use and that can be one of the reasons that people might engage in infidelity the next reason why people might cheat. And I think that this is one that's really overlooked a lot of the time, is that they like who they get to be with the other person. So it's not so much about like, oh, this other person is so amazing and they're so attractive and they're so much better than my partner. It's this other person sees me with fresh eyes, this other person thinks I'm incredible, I'm not saddled with the baggage with this new person.

0:15:23.96 → 0:16:32.01

They don't feel frustrated with me, they aren't disappointed in me, they don't see me through the lens of a long term relationship with unmet needs and fights and conflict loops and all of those things that can lead a relationship to feel a bit heavy and exhausting sometimes. So there can be this sense of having a clean slate with another person, or even better than a clean slate, having that newness of when you first meet someone and connect with them. And you have such rose coloured classes. And so not only is it how good it feels to be attracted to someone in that way, but to have someone be attracted to you in that way, to be so excited about you, to think that you're incredible and really put you on a pedestal. If you've felt for a long time like your partner is only critical of you, or your partner doesn't see you in a very positive light or is consistently disappointed, then it can be very, very attractive to gravitate towards someone who does see you in that positive light.

0:16:32.08 → 0:17:49.13

So again, this is certainly not to suggest that it's the person who has been cheated on's, fault for driving someone to cheat on them. I don't think that that's a fair allocation of responsibility. But it can be a relational dynamic if the relationship has become really unloving or it's just not an atmosphere that has a lot of positive emotion and admiration and respect that's freely given and exchanged between partners, that the allure of someone who sees you with clean eyes and even rose coloured glasses can be very, very alluring for people related to that. One is not only do you get to present yourself anew with someone, but you might be able to experiment with new ways of expression that feel a bit vulnerable or edgy with your partner. I had an episode a little while ago with Vanessa and Xander Marin, she's a sex therapist and she was talking about a pattern that happens in virtually all long term relationships without effort to counter it, which is that our range of sexual expression tends to narrow a lot.

0:17:49.22 → 0:18:59.96

So while we might start being a little sexually adventurous with our partner and having a lot of sexual chemistry and intensity, not only does the chemistry and intensity tend to taper a little, which is normal, but what we do sexually or romantically, physically, we tend to get quite into a routine around that. And in a weird way, it feels much more vulnerable to try new things or to experiment, or to put yourself out there with your long term partner with whom you have these routines and these ways of being. It feels much more vulnerable to show those sides of you to express a fantasy or a desire or anything like that. Way more vulnerable to do that with a long term partner than it does to share with someone with whom you're having a one night stand. So I think that that other aspect of liking who you get to be with the other person or experimenting with who you get to be with the other person without the hangover of it being your partner and having to face them the next day and the next day and the next day.

0:19:00.09 → 0:19:46.21

That can be something that drives people to be really attracted to the idea of infidelity. And again, if we dig into that a little we can see that shame and embarrassment and self consciousness is really at the heart of that. So again, not about the partner but really about the individual and all of their shadowy stuff and all of their wounded parts that are using these strategies to keep themselves safe. So the last reason that I want to share is sometimes people will cheat to get their partner's attention. So it might be trying to almost as a last ditch effort to say like I'm here and I need you and why aren't you paying attention to me?

0:19:46.25 → 0:20:42.87

Why aren't you taking seriously all of these things that I'm saying when I say to you that I'm unhappy and that I'm lonely and that I need you and you're not here. It can almost be like raising the stakes or taking things up a notch by cheating. And that might be physical infidelity or it might be an emotional affair, but it can almost be a way of threatening a partner, saying like I have other options so don't take me for granted. So I would say this is probably more likely to be seen among anxiously attached people, this tendency to almost not so much mate switch, which is the evolutionary psychological term for this, but to try and make a partner jealous I suppose is essentially what it is. It's saying like don't get complacent around me.

0:20:42.99 → 0:21:27.57

And when they feel like they're not being taken seriously or being heard or being valued, then they might cheat or take steps towards that as a way to really raise the stakes and get their partner's attention to say, if you don't start taking me seriously, here's what I'm going to do. So you better start listening and paying attention. So that can definitely be a pattern. And as I said, that's more likely to happen around anxiously attached people. And the reason for that is simply that we can contrast a couple of these examples whereas the sabotage limb of this tends to be more for avoidant people, where the strategy is essentially to create distance.

0:21:27.73 → 0:22:17.08

I do this to increase the distance between us because that's what my avoidance strategies would have me do. This more anxious strategy which is cheating or being unfaithful or taking steps towards that to get someone's attention is actually not about creating distance, it's trying to narrow the gap. And again, that sounds crazy, right? It sounds like the opposite of what you would want to do but it's like I'm being unfaithful to try and save our relationship to try and get you to notice me, because I'm terrified that you don't notice me or that you don't care or that you are indifferent to what I do. And so it's ultimately a way to try and close that gap, but obviously not a very healthy or advisable strategy because it can do a lot of harm in the process.

0:22:17.95 → 0:23:07.42

So those were five reasons why people might cheat in a relationship. Just to recap, those were that they have an unworthiness wound and they feel undeserving of their relationship and so their shadow parts kind of grab the wheel and drive them to behave in really reckless ways from a place of not feeling worthy, not feeling deserving of good things. The second one was feeling lonely and disconnected and feeling like infidelity is either a stepping stone to breaking up or feeling like the relationship is dead in the water already. So what does it really matter? It's sort of this sense of despondency and having given up on the relationship and checked out, so it feels like cheating is kind of inconsequential.

0:23:07.53 → 0:24:02.32

The next one was sabotage. So when someone uses cheating as a way to blow up their relationship because they can't bring themselves to actually have the conversation directly and deal with someone's sadness or pleading or anything like that, so they really torpedo it in a way that means it's probably too far gone to salvage. The fourth one was they like who they get to be with the other person that allows them to experience a side of themselves or be seen in a certain way that they're missing in their relationship. And the last one was to make their partner jealous or to get their partner's attention, often as a last ditch way to try and save the relationship or to get their partner to notice them when they're feeling invisible or taken for granted. If you've enjoyed this episode, I hope that it has really been helpful.

0:24:02.38 → 0:25:05.33

And as I said at the start, I know it's a really tough conversation to have and brings up a lot of things for a lot of people, but it really is very common and so I'm hoping that it's at least given you a bit more perspective and curiosity. Again, not to excuse this behaviour, but to understand what might be driving it and what's going on under the hood that isn't simply, I'm not good enough, or they didn't love me, because often that is not at all the driver. And if you're listening to this, and you've been the person who has cheated, who's been unfaithful, who's breached a boundary, and you feel a lot of shame and guilt around that, I'm hoping that today's discussion, equally, has been supportive for you in understanding what some of the drivers might be, other than I'm a terrible person. Because I think we can beat ourselves up about this, when really, as I said, it's incredibly common, and most of the time it's just coming from a wounded place rather than being a cold, heartless person who is out to hurt people. Because I think that is a tiny minority of cases.

0:25:05.43 → 0:25:34.61

And the more that we can be compassionate towards ourselves, the more likely we are to be able to shift that pattern and make sure it doesn't happen in future relationships, rather than letting those shadow parts run the show. So if you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a five star rating or a review. It really does help so much. And a final reminder that you can get 50% off any of my Master classes on my course for the month of June on my website with the code June 50. All one word.

0:25:34.73 → 0:25:57.08

Thanks guys. I look forward to seeing you again soon. Take care. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephaniergig.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating.

0:25:57.14 → 0:26:01.42

It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.

Understanding Your Origin Wounds with Vienna Pharaon

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

In today's episode, I'm joined by Vienna Pharaon. Vienna is a licensed marriage & family therapist, creator of the hugely successful @mindfulmft Instagram account, and recently published author of The Origins of You. Vienna has the gift of conveying complex and emotionally dense topics with such nuance. Today she joins me on the podcast to talk about origin wounds and how they impact patterns in relationships as adults and how we can honour our pain and experience.

WHAT WE’LL COVER:

• What happens when you hide behind a façade of being "fine"

• The five origin wounds (worthiness, belonging, trust, safety and prioritisation)

• Why we might struggle to explore our family dynamics

• What happens when we avoid being in pain properly 

• Finding peace with the pain

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.17 → 0:00:33.58

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge, and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment.

0:00:33.61 → 0:01:05.66

Today I'm joined by Vienna. Vienna, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. So you've just released a book, The Origins of you, which I am partway through, and I have to say, maybe like a few pages in. I was listening to the audiobook, but what I imagine would be a few pages into the introduction, and I was in tears, vouch for the fact that it's incredible. And your work, more broadly has been so insightful for me.

0:01:05.76 → 0:02:05.80

I was saying to my partner in advance of recording this that in the early days of my Instagram account a few years ago, before I had any confidence to share any original thought, I think my Instagram account was more or less a proxy fan account of yours. We share so much of your work because it is so profoundly insightful and you have such a gift for conveying really complex, emotionally dense and tender topics with such nuance and in a way that is so compassionate and really invites people, I suppose, to feel safe to turn towards those things in this work. So I love for people who are maybe not familiar with your work, although I suspect many people will be. You focus a lot on family systems and origin wounds. Can you give a little context for why that's so important and why that's kind of the lens and the starting point for your work with people?

0:02:06.97 → 0:02:14.31

Yeah. And thank you for that generous introduction. Yeah. Just taking that in. Thank you.

0:02:14.46 → 0:02:56.67

I came into this work unsurprisingly, as most therapists do, to resolve that which was unresolved in my own life. And I chuckle because I think sometimes we know it as therapists that that's why we're entering into this field of work, and other times we don't know. And I didn't really know it. I think I had taken an aptitude test when I was in 7th grade, and it said that I would either do something in sports or I would become a marriage therapist. And I got into psychology, and I was curious about relationships, and I got into this work not actually knowing that there was unresolved pain in my life.

0:02:56.87 → 0:03:28.73

We'll rewind a little bit. My parents went through a separation, nine year divorce process when I was in first grade. And when I look back on it now with perspective, it was highly conflictual, really hard to be around and witness. There was a lot of psychological abuse, manipulation, gaslighting, paranoia, emotional flooding, just high, high, high conflict. And I am an only child, so as a little tiny human in this system.

0:03:28.93 → 0:03:50.96

One of the things that I took on was believing that there wasn't space for me to not be okay. Because what I saw were the two adults in my life not being okay. And whether that was true or not didn't really matter. What mattered was that was my perspective as a tiny human existing in this environment. And so I started to fly under the radar.

0:03:51.02 → 0:04:22.47

I started to really present as a needless little girl. I was always okay, I was always fine, I was always unaffected. And that role that developed early on really came through with me into my adult years and relationships. And I continued to be this needless woman, was always fine, the cool girl persona, totally unaffected by things, boundaryless, et cetera, et cetera. And it's funny, when I started my graduate work, my parents divorced.

0:04:22.52 → 0:04:33.41

Didn't affect me, I promise. They're good friends now. We do holidays together. They can drive in the same car. I had all these explanations and reasons for why it did not affect me.

0:04:33.48 → 0:05:21.70

And what it eventually brought me to was that I had to hold that position in my life because not holding that position would require me to feel not holding that position would require me to make space for me to have not been okay. And that was a very overwhelming and confronting thing for me to be with for a long period of time. And there's a catalyst in my mid, late 20s that really brought me to the surrender, really brought me to my knees. It's like, oh, my gosh, I see that I have maintained this role forever my entire life, and there's no room for me to not be okay. There's no room for me to have an emotional experience.

0:05:22.39 → 0:05:58.60

This was still just the extension of what I had internalised and absorbed as a little girl. And that's a bit of my personal story. But professionally, I continued to come up against this, like people who would present with unwanted patterns in their adult lives where they weren't able to just make a behavioural shift. And what I kept finding was that it kept being tied to unresolved wounding that happened in their past. I take the lens of looking at our family of origin.

0:05:58.70 → 0:06:35.82

Obviously, there are plenty of other influences that affect us along the way. Media, society, coaches, teachers, past partners. There's plenty of influence that will contribute to this. But I look at our family of origin the first place, the first model, our first education on all of the things from communication to conflict to boundaries, to what love is, what love is not, what safety is, what safety is not, and so forth. And to look at how those frameworks are running the show today.

0:06:36.75 → 0:07:15.63

Yeah, and thank you for sharing that snippet of your story. That was really what impacted me when I was listening because it really struck very deeply. And I think my kind of inner child, my wounded little one, felt so seen by that story, because even though our circumstances are different, that was very much my pattern in my family system, as well as my parents relationship. They're still together now, but definitely went through pretty regular cycles of strain and, oh, we're going to get divorced. Oh, wait, no, we're not.

0:07:15.72 → 0:08:02.20

From when I was very young. And so, in addition to that piece, my sister struggled with her mental health and so there was really this experience of, like, why would I want to contribute to the tension and the drama and all of this stuff that's going on that feels so unsafe for me. My only priority in this system is to stabilise other people and to not contribute to all of that stuff that's going on. In my first therapy session a couple of years ago, I turned up and sat down and sort of proclaimed that I was low maintenance. I just had to figure out whether I needed to leave my relationship with my partner at the time, who was bringing up so much stuff like, yeah, I'm fine, it's just about him.

0:08:03.77 → 0:08:35.75

I can be the priority. Yeah. And you can imagine the raised eyebrow that I got plonking myself down in the therapy chair and declaring my low maintenance, saying, yeah, I've always been the low maintenance one. I'm pretty go with the flow. I don't really have much by way of needs, but I keep coming it up against these patterns and I can kind of look back on that and laugh at it now, but, yeah, I think it is, it's like the being fine is evidence of the wound.

0:08:35.80 → 0:09:03.11

And it's not to say that that's a bad thing, but it costs us, I think is a good way of looking at it. There was a line in your book, I was driving, listening to the audiobook and I had to pull over and write it in my notes. I think you're actually quoting I think it was Alexandra Solomon. You said, I'm going to butcher it like our wounds and our gifts are next door neighbours, or maybe vice versa. And I thought that was so beautiful, I actually used it as sort of a discussion point in my Mastermind programme this week.

0:09:03.23 → 0:09:54.34

But looking at it's not that these things are bad or wrong, it's that we've come up with strategies to keep ourselves safe and get our needs met from a very young age. And they are formative in moulding us and who we become and how we move about the world. So I think that it's a really compassionate lens to see ourselves in that light, rather than to feel like this is a pattern that I have to break because there's something wrong with me and seeing it as some sort of defect. Yeah, that's the reframe, right, is that our systems are brilliant systems. Our systems are incredibly clever and instead of being at odds with them instead of being in the shame, in the guilt, in the embarrassment, in the frustration, irritation, annoyance of oh, here we go again, right?

0:09:54.52 → 0:11:01.03

It's to replace that with the curiosity of what is this behaviour serving to be fine, which is something that you and I both can connect to, was part of the survival, was part of how we learned to navigate through the system at that time. And as you pointed out, if we continue to hold on to I am fine all the time, what that does is it decenters us, it makes it so that there's no space for us to have anything outside of being fine as something that can be prioritised. And all of the things that that affects is intimacy, connection, ability to actually communicate, ability to be in conflict in an authentic way. So we start to see how the things that allowed us to survive back in the day may be blocking many of the things that we crave and wish for. The quote about our pain and our gifts being next to our neighbours, it's a powerful message.

0:11:01.20 → 0:11:25.27

Most people will say well, I wouldn't be who I am today without what happened. That is true. The valid point and this fear that if we actually tune into what happened that that somehow means that it will eradicate our gifts. That somehow we will lose our edge. That somehow this piece, this part of ourselves that became exceptional at whatever the thing is.

0:11:25.34 → 0:12:27.65

So I became exceptional at following stories, at listening to the details, at never forgetting something. Because when you grow up in an environment where there is a lot of manipulation, where there's psychological abuse, where there's gaslighting for me, what that required of me was to scan my environment constantly, to look for what was true and what was not true. To remember every last thing that was said so that I couldn't be hoodwinked. And what that turned me into was a phenomenal therapist who remembers everything that people tells her, who can follow a story successfully. And the difference though, so that we do not have the intersection of trauma and gifts is that there is a shift at some point where our gifts are either motivated by the pain or by the trauma or by the wounding or they're motivated by the healing.

0:12:27.78 → 0:12:54.73

And when we can step into the awareness that I can still have this gift, even though I am tending to my pain. There's such a beautiful opening that happens there, and that feels so important for me to say out loud to your listeners. Because I think a lot of times people hold on to the story of, well, but I am who I am today. I'm proud of who this person is. And yes, be proud of who you are, absolutely.

0:12:54.90 → 0:13:19.03

And the gifts that you acquired through going through the hard things that you went through, those gifts will not be taken. But you do not need to hold on to the pain in the same way and be motivated and driven by that pain in order to still show up in the world today in this incredible way that you do. Yeah. Beautiful. I'm thinking it might be useful if we sort of took a step back.

0:13:19.07 → 0:13:53.69

And I know that a lot of people have a level of resistance around looking at family stuff and a level of kind of innate protectiveness over how their childhood played out. And again, I can relate to that. Up until a few years ago, I would have said, nothing to see here. And I know you talk about finding this balance of not overstating it, not understating it, not maximising or minimising, I think is the phrase you use. What would you say to people who do notice that kind of impulse to protect or defend their childhood and their parents?

0:13:53.87 → 0:14:05.33

Oh, yeah, right. Again, I know this one well. There's a lot of reasons why we want to steer clear of it. Sometimes we're afraid of what it is that we're going to find. It feels like it's going to be too overwhelming.

0:14:05.38 → 0:14:29.85

We don't want to go there. What's going to happen when I open up Pandora's box? We appreciate the relationships that we have with our family at this point. They're in an okay place, and the idea of going back in there and looking for something and exploring something might change the dynamics that we have today that we're happy with and feel like we can manage all right. Maybe other people have somebody deceased in their family.

0:14:29.94 → 0:15:22.66

And so the idea of exploring something and that person not being here to have conversation or for reconciliation, that can be a constraint. We hear people often say they did the best that they could with what they had, and there are tremendous narratives around that that will block us from going to that place. And sometimes we idealise what our childhood was. This was pretty good. We put ourselves on the I talk about the wound comparison in the book, where we sort of put ourselves on this spectrum where if somebody had it worse than we did, based on our own perspective and opinions about it, then we feel foolish or silly for, quote unquote, complaining about something when it was, overall a pretty good experience.

0:15:23.51 → 0:15:50.79

All of this part of this work is about holding multiple truths. I say it pretty early on in the book that this is not an act of throwing parents or caretakers or the adults in our lives under the bus. This isn't us going on a wild goose hunt. This is about being able to name and honour what our experiences are. And all of those things, all of those games that we can play with ourselves, the distractions, that's what they are.

0:15:50.83 → 0:16:08.56

They are distractions away from us, honouring our pain. It can be true that they did the best that they could with what they had. It can be true that their parents were way worse to them than they were to us. Right? I have endless stories of what it could sound like.

0:16:08.69 → 0:17:08.80

All of that can be true and it doesn't take away from what your experience was. And it's so important that we are able to honour what the experience was and put a period at the end of that sentence. And one of the questions that I ask in the book is what did you want most as a child and not get, well, I wanted to be prioritised more by my dad, but he was working so much and he was doing that because he was providing for the family. Well, that's really different than saying I want it to be a priority period to just hold there. Because the moment that we go into the explanation, even when the explanation is true, invalid, it moves us away from being able to honour our pain and begin to work with our pain and acknowledge it and witness it and grieve alongside of it.

0:17:08.90 → 0:18:11.38

And so absolutely I understand that turning towards this can be scary, can be overwhelming. Sometimes people are like, I don't want to go to therapy because I'm going to hate them, or the relationship is going to end, or I know that those are concerns for people. And we go at a pace that feels okay for the person, whether listening, reading, in therapy, because ultimately, at the end of the day, if we avoid being with our pain properly, our pain will find very clever ways of trying to bring us back to it. Yeah, that feels like a nice segue into this tendency that we have often subconsciously to gravitate towards people, situations, relationships that touch our wounds, that feel familiar, that recreate past patterns. Maybe not in a really obvious literal surface way, although sometimes why do we do that?

0:18:11.43 → 0:18:42.56

I think so many people at a conscious level go, I don't know why I keep doing the same thing when it's not in alignment with what I want. I want a healthy relationship with an available person and yet here I am, chasing after this person who is unsure about me and I'm trying to earn their attention and affection and prove myself and whatever else the pattern might be. Why is there such a magnetic pull to familiar pain? Yeah. Oh, I know.

0:18:42.61 → 0:19:28.41

Like I said, that irritation, that annoyance, that frustration with the self when we find ourselves right back at the thing that we said we wouldn't do, whether it's engaging in the conflict in the same way, to your point. Dating that emotionally unavailable person for the, umpteenth, time patterns, the unwanted patterns in our adult lives that we can't shake will point us to our origin pain. I want to ask the listener to take a moment to try to externalise pain for a moment. Like allow it to be a separate entity to exist outside of your body for a second. Maybe it looks a certain way to you, maybe it has a colour, a shape, whatever, but allow it to exist outside of your body for a second.

0:19:28.50 → 0:19:57.21

And I bet if your pain could talk this is what I think my pain sounded like. It was like, hey, I know that you would like to move on with life, and I know that you have goals for yourself, or who you want to date, or how you want to navigate this conflict differently, or the fact that you want to be able to set that boundary. I promise you that I am not trying to destroy your life. I promise you that I am not trying to ruin you or keep you stuck. I know that you want to get on with things.

0:19:57.28 → 0:20:31.64

I know that you want to have this new way of living, this desirable way of living, being in relationship, dating, et cetera. But if you just move on, if you just brute force your way through and try to change something, then you forget about me. And so I can't let you just abandon what the hurt or the harm has been. You can't just move on from me. That's why I keep bringing you back into the patterns, because that's the only way I can get you to pay attention to me.

0:20:32.33 → 0:21:06.13

And so if you could turn towards me, so that you could acknowledge me, just witness what we went through, so that we can just be in the grief of what that was, then I promise you I will loosen my grip. Then I promise that I will not have to keep bringing you back into the same patterns over and over and over again. But I promise that when I bring you into these patterns, it's just my way of trying to get you to pay attention to something that you haven't spent enough time with. Totally. I'm curious.

0:21:06.71 → 0:21:26.95

When is that an opportunity? And when is it prone to being retraumatizing or just a reenactment of old pain in a way that isn't productive or constructive? How do we know the difference? And how much of that is within our control versus circumstantial? Yeah, right.

0:21:27.10 → 0:22:33.31

I think part of it is about what the intention of it is, kind of going back into something that is painful. We don't have to remember all of the details, we don't have to necessarily even go back into a particular scenario to relive it. It's about honouring the pain, honouring the experience of not feeling good enough, of not feeling safe, of not feeling like it was okay for you to be authentic and still loved to the feeling and sensation of not being important enough to the people you wanted to be important to. The actual details are far less important than what it left you with. And to honour that you maybe did not feel safe, that you were not protected to honour that you did not feel good enough unless you were perfect, unless you were performing, unless you were pleasing, unless you were XYZ, whatever it is, that is what we're tending to.

0:22:33.46 → 0:23:26.16

And so, yeah, I think for folks who have trauma, complex trauma, doing this work alongside a trauma informed professional is incredibly encouraged. Because certainly this is not about just like going into reenactments to drum up some stuff and have it be super raw, but it is about getting intentional with witnessing the experiences in terms of the sensation, in terms of how it was internalised, in terms of what we were left with, because that is what is ruling our lives. Yeah. So in your book, you talk about these five origin wounds, and I don't know that we'll have time to go through each of them in turn, but they are worthiness. Belonging, safety, trust, I think you've got it all.

0:23:26.85 → 0:23:57.07

Maybe we could just start by talking through the worthiness wound, because I know that's where you start in the book, and I know that tends to be pretty universal to varying degrees and in different expressions, but I know that your take, and certainly my experience is that we all have some version of a worthiness wound. What does that look like? How can that manifest? And maybe what do we do with that once we realise that that lives within us? Yeah, right.

0:23:57.24 → 0:24:52.09

As I was writing the book and really working on this wound, I was struck by I really think that every single one of us rubs up against a worthiness wound at some point. And yes, as you said, some to a much more intense degree than others. But the worthiness wound is when you there's a lot of conditions around worthiness. So this idea that I am not good enough or valuable or deserving unless I am XYZ. So if I am perfect, if I am a pleaser, if I perform the way that you want me to, if I am the comic relief, if I get the straight A's, if I am a really strong athlete, that is the thing that gets me love, connection, attention, validation, praise, approval and so forth.

0:24:53.71 → 0:25:37.80

So oftentimes there is a condition there. So I usually say to the perfectionists, the pleasers, the performers out there, those are usually the folks who will have some version of this worthiness wound, present my worthiness wound. And I shared a little bit about that story of kind of flying under the radar, being this needless child feeling that there wasn't room for me to have feelings and not be okay. And one of the things that continued to contribute to that is my dad was phenomenal in so many ways, but one of the things that he did was if I behaved or acted out or said something that he didn't like that. He didn't agree with when I wasn't easy going.

0:25:38.49 → 0:26:27.96

What he would do as punishment was he would give me the silent treatment, sometimes for days or weeks on end. And so that really reminded me that when you're easygoing, when you don't have needs, when you're not difficult, then you get presence, love, connection, help support all of the things. But when you are difficult, then that's when it's taken from you. And I found myself in that space of that really reiterated the origin around that role that I had taken on as a kiddo. And it reminded me, yeah, don't speak out, don't express anything that's outside of the pretty little box because when you do, the thing that you want the most is withheld taken from you that there is a punishment that happens here.

0:26:28.33 → 0:26:58.21

And so, yeah, just again to encapsulate it, that worthiness wound comes when we grow up in an environment where we don't feel good enough, when we don't feel deserving, when we don't feel valuable. And sometimes it's the full stop. It doesn't matter what we do. And for other folks, it might be, unless you are perfect, unless you do what we require you to do. I can probably touch very quickly on each of the wounds just to at least high level give everyone a bit of a sense.

0:26:58.28 → 0:27:33.40

So the belonging wound is some people grow up in families where a family system will say something like, this is what we do in this family, this is what we believe, this is what we think. There's this emphasis as to be a part of us means this is what we do think, believe. And if you go against that, then you're on the outside. Dr. Gabar Mate talks about how when we're kids, when attachment is threatened, we will trade authenticity for it every time.

0:27:33.58 → 0:27:51.79

Makes a lot of sense. And authenticity and attachment are our lifelines, they're vital. But when we're kiddos, when we are really tiny, attachment is necessary. That is literally our survival. And so we will change who we are in order to fit in.

0:27:51.83 → 0:28:33.82

That's the first stop. Somewhere along the way, we might take a path of rebellion. So sometimes in those teenage years we're like, screw it, I believe this or I'm going to do the exact opposite of what a parent wants me to. But in those early, early years, we adapt to what the system requires of us so that we can quote, unquote, fit in. So often, if you felt like you were the black sheep, if you had differences that the family didn't understand or maybe shunned or rejected, those are oftentimes the experiences where a belonging wound might originate, the prioritisation wound, okay, this is when we didn't feel important enough in our family.

0:28:33.95 → 0:29:19.88

And so how might that manifest? Maybe a parent who is a workaholic, maybe there's a different type of addiction in the family system where that is the priority, a mental health challenge that takes up the space, the energy. You mentioned this earlier, a sibling, for example. I think you might have said mental health around that, but an illness of some sort where the attention and the priority is somewhere else, where it just takes that energy away from you and we can sit here and say, well, it makes good sense, or oh yeah, of course that needed to be the priority. But it doesn't change that you did not feel like you were important enough in that space.

0:29:20.06 → 0:29:57.41

I share a story in the prioritisation chapter about a client of mine who in the book I call Andre, and he has a single mom and he would talk about his mom with such love and adoration and respect. She would work multiple jobs, double shifts every day except for Sunday, where they would go to church together Sunday morning and then they would have brunch together afterwards. And he would sit here and he would say, I respect her. He could really rationalise how her working double shift was her way of prioritising him. He could find his way to that story.

0:29:57.58 → 0:30:41.62

But ultimately still what was at the core of it was that what he wanted most was to be a priority through time spent with her. And that was so hard for him to come to that space because he wanted to protect her, because he knew she was absolutely doing the best that she could. She was giving everything that she had. And it's scenarios like this that are incredibly heartbreaking because you can see how much love and respect and care that is there, but it doesn't change that a wound still exists. And I think that's an important reminder for the listener that wounds do not have to come from abusive, negligent, mal intended places.

0:30:41.76 → 0:31:33.35

Sometimes wounds are created because of the natural circumstances of life, and I think sometimes that is hard for us. It can be even harder when it's not so obvious to actually allow for and create space for there to be a wound there, when it isn't this blatant lack of respect or this blatant abuse that takes place. I was just going to ask, maybe you were going to sort of move to this is how does the prioritisation wound show up and shape us kind of behaviorally in the way that we relate to ourselves and others? Yeah, in a number of different ways. One of the ways might be that we, through patterns, will keep choosing people who do not prioritise us, where there are other things that are very important to them in their lives, where it doesn't need to be apples to apples.

0:31:33.43 → 0:32:03.41

Where if you grew up with someone with addiction in the family, that you necessarily partner with someone who is struggling with addiction. But you might choose someone who prioritises something else over you and that keeps bringing you back into the wound. You might be someone yourself who is a lot of times people with a prioritisation wound become over givers. They do everything to prioritise everyone else. To try to teach people, show them this is how I want to be prioritised.

0:32:04.63 → 0:32:36.21

What's the giggle for there? I relate to it. It's also been a discussion I've been having with the clients in my mastermind group. This tendency of the frantic over giving and deprioritizing ourselves prioritising others, but then this kind of bubbling resentment of what about me? And we have to look at the ways in which we participate in that dynamic and I think get really honest about not creating lots of space for ourselves.

0:32:36.31 → 0:33:08.50

Because that's the other side of the coin, right? When we've got this story that the loving thing to do is to neglect ourselves in favour of tending to others, then I think to the extent that other people don't reciprocate, we have the story of you don't care about me the way I care about you or as much as I care about you. So I think that whenever we notice those stories, it's a bit of a smoke signal for something deeper that we need to look at that's, right? Yeah, always a smoke signal. Right?

0:33:08.52 → 0:33:38.21

Because it just recreates. Why don't you care about me as much as I care about you? There's something familiar about that and that's in this book, the goal is what is familiar about what's happening when we have reactivity. That's a great indicator that there's an origin, you said it before. We're able to give advice that we can't take another indicator.

0:33:39.51 → 0:34:04.25

We say to our friends absolutely don't go back to your ex. If your ex is messaging, don't respond and then you're there responding yourself. It's not as easy when you're in the experience of it because that's your wounding, that's playing into the decision making rationally. We know the quote unquote right thing to do. We're able to give that advice, but we can't take it.

0:34:04.32 → 0:34:38.42

And so these are really good indicators that there is some irresolution around a particular wound that is showing up in that space. I think to your point about the prioritisation, it's like ultimately, of course, we want to be in relationships with people where there's reciprocity, where we do feel like we are important, that we matter, that we are valued. But you spoke to it so well, this tendency to actually wind up deprioritizing ourselves. So instead of coming to ourselves, first of what does it look like to actually prioritise me? We continue to outsource it.

0:34:38.47 → 0:34:56.33

If I give to these people, what I hope will happen is that they'll give to me. If I show you and model how great I am at prioritising you, then maybe you will be able to do that for me. And again, that's not a really good way to heal a wound.

0:34:58.59 → 0:35:44.30

That's a good way to just keep it going and keep it going and keep it going and to be able to go inwards and tend to that pain so that we don't have to keep finding these ways of reenactment, either through repetition or through opposition. That's really the goal here. And so in this origin healing practise of being able to identify what our wound or wounds are, number of people now at this point exactly. Have that one, have that one, have that one. It's like, yeah, we do have to find that appropriate way to be with this pain so that it doesn't have the same lock on us.

0:35:44.75 → 0:36:36.98

The trust wound unsurprising, where there's an experience of betrayal, deceit, lies. It might be something that happened to you or it might be something that you observed or witnessed. So obviously a really common one is if there was infidelity or an affair that took place in the family system, if there were family secrets that you were expected to keep, or if there was a family secret that was kept from you. Sometimes these are a bit more of the outrageous ones, but they still happen. Where maybe a family member gambles away an education fund or someone who takes out credit cards in your name as a child, and then kind of in the more day to day ones, where maybe there is a promise that is made over and over again that somebody doesn't actually follow through on.

0:36:37.16 → 0:37:19.31

And I'm not talking about, oh, a situation had to change. Of course we've got normal life stuff, but I'm talking about these commitments, these agreements, these promises that always fall through, that let us know that we can't trust the important people in our lives. And also one of the other ones is that we can sometimes hear, and usually this will come from an unresolved adult too, but someone might make sweeping generalisation statements. Never trust a man, never trust that there's some storyline that then gets imprinted in us and absorbed by us based on what the adults are telling us. And then the last one, of course, is the safety wound.

0:37:19.36 → 0:38:00.75

And when we're talking about the absence of safety, we are often talking about the presence of abuse. This is a really tender, raw chapter. I remind people to take very good care, of course, when we're reading it, but we have to name it and unfortunately, we have to talk about abuse when we are talking about the absence of safety. And so emotional, physical, sexual, psychological abuse, negligence, recklessness. But ultimately a safety origin wound is going to arise when you didn't feel like your well being was cared for, had concern for, was respected, honoured and protected by the adults in your life.

0:38:00.92 → 0:38:30.19

Yeah, thank you for that summary. I'm interested on the trust wound. Something that comes up for me like none of those kind of big dramatic headline ones, but certainly my memory of my family system was a lot of things being swept under the rug. Let's just collectively kind of pretend that things are fine. We'll sit down at the dinner table even though we know mom and dad aren't talking, and there's stuff going on and just kind of playing that game.

0:38:30.34 → 0:39:01.38

And I notice for myself that I have such a visceral response as an adult in my relationships to we're not talking about the things that are clearly going on here. I don't know if that's an expression of a trust wound or maybe something else, but that's certainly something for me. Yeah, right. I can't trust you to be able to have the hard conversation. It's not necessarily a family secret, but it kind of hangs out in that space, the unspoken hidden thing that is right here in front of us.

0:39:01.48 → 0:39:15.61

Right, exactly. The pretending. And I can't trust the people here to not pretend, to not hide. Can we just say the thing, bring the elephant into the room and let's expose them? Right.

0:39:15.65 → 0:39:47.11

It's like that's, that craving, because we don't have to go deep into it. But what did pretending and hiding lead to? Yeah, I think for me, it was probably even as a very young child. It's like, if I know what's going on, then I can shift into my fixer role and my peacekeeper role and I can go about tending to everyone. And I would go to my mum, then I'd go to my sister and I'd counsel and I'd try and kind of bring everyone back.

0:39:47.18 → 0:40:06.22

But if we weren't talking about it, I don't have enough information to do my job in the system. Which sounds crazy when we're talking about a six year old, but I think that was the thing. No, it doesn't. Right. You see how clever I mean, there's a lot of layers to what you just said.

0:40:06.35 → 0:40:36.08

I needed you to not hide and pretend so I could go into appointed manager. Right. We can see how much is caught and stuck in there. But to your point is that you wanted the adults to lead, you wanted the adults to take charge. You didn't want to be in that role, you did it because you had to.

0:40:36.18 → 0:41:01.91

But ultimately, what I hear you saying is that I needed the adults to be able to say what needed to be said and be responsible for what they needed to be responsible for, so that you didn't need to step into that role. And can I trust the people in my life now to do that? Or do I need to be hyper vigilant, constantly looking, scanning, trying to figure out what's brushed under the rug right? Now. Did I see it?

0:41:01.92 → 0:41:26.50

Did I not see it? What's being said, what's not being said, what's being pretended, what's not being pretended, what's being hidden, what's not being hidden without trusting that it requires you to be in a hypervigilant vigilant space of constantly scanning your environment. Can I trust you to be able to have the hard conversation with me? Can I trust you to be able to bring uncomfortable things forward? Can I trust you to be honest?

0:41:26.63 → 0:41:33.75

Whatever it is, fill in the blank. Right? Yeah. But that's how it can continue to show up present day. Yeah, absolutely.

0:41:33.87 → 0:42:23.27

It's like I have to be on the front foot and get ahead of it, because I can't trust that as and when things arise, they'll be spoken about openly and navigated in a mature way. I feel like it's my responsibility to spot the problem, name the problem, take courage of working through the problem and ultimately getting us to a resolution. Because I've taken that on as my role and I don't trust that that will happen in the absence of my leadership or my stewardship. And I think that in adult relationships, that can lead us to a lot of burnout and resentment, this sense of like, everything's my responsibility. And yet again, we see this theme of because I'm making everything my responsibility, and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

0:42:23.43 → 0:42:53.82

It's like if I don't ever create space for someone to show up, or if I don't voice the need and voice the fear and explain it, I just go and do the thing, preempting that if I don't do it, no one will. We don't really create space for change. Yeah. And that's what I get into into the third part of the book. Because it's only so much to be able to identify our wounds and witness and grieve and be in the emotional component of this.

0:42:53.84 → 0:43:13.65

That's really important for us to move some of our pain. But then it's like, how do wounds get in the way when we're talking about healthy communication, navigating conflict. Well, navigating boundaries properly. Right. Because exactly.

0:43:13.74 → 0:43:56.35

To your point, if I don't shift anything about this, then I remain in this hyper vigilant space. I do not ever let someone bring something forward. I can't have a trusting relationship, whether it's with partner, friendship, whomever. It's like all of these things that actually block what I imagine that you or someone in a position like this would feel. And so to be able to see our part in blocking what it is that we're looking for and craving for, but instead of it being shame, blame, guilt, embarrassment, we're actually able to step into the compassion, the grace, the curiosity of OOH.

0:43:56.48 → 0:44:13.14

Yeah. My behaviours serve something. They're here for a reason. And when I can get curious about that, then I can make a shift. I remember I was in a I know you just had I imagine maybe his episode will come out before mine.

0:44:13.17 → 0:44:42.34

But you spoke to my husband earlier and I remember early on in our dating, there was a conflict that we got into. I have no idea what it was about, but what I do remember is that I was very committed to proving my point. I was very committed to being right and I was going in on it and he's like, okay, I got it. I understand. And I kept my favourite part about this is he told this story as well.

0:44:42.39 → 0:44:51.66

So I'm so interested to that's so funny, your versions of it. Okay, please. Let's see.

0:44:53.79 → 0:45:06.04

Yeah, you put me on notice and lol because my version clearly is going to be right. Naturally. Of course, naturally. So I keep going. He's like, I got it, I understand.

0:45:06.14 → 0:45:20.41

And I'm doubling down. I'm tripling down. I can't stop. And I have this out of body moment experience where I'm almost, like, looking in on myself, just continuing to go, and I'm like, stop. Like, enough.

0:45:20.50 → 0:45:37.31

This is not this is not attractive. Like, this is not good. And I remember once I finally stopped, there was a lot of shame and embarrassment that came in, if I'm being really honest. It was early on before we were even engaged. This behaviour is really unbecoming.

0:45:37.36 → 0:46:13.31

Like, I don't even know if this person is going to want to be with me. And certainly if I were to continue behaving this way, I don't think that he would want to be with me. But instead of just staying in the shame, I got really curious about what needing to be right served, what is that all about? And we'll link to what people already have heard and understood about my story. I already shared that I grew up in an environment where there was a lot of psychological manipulation, gaslighting and yeah, changing of stories.

0:46:13.47 → 0:47:02.32

And part of my survival, part of my safety, was that if I'm right, if I can prove my point, then I am safe. And if I am not right, then I am unsafe. And the moment that clicked in for me, there was so much softness, so much gentleness for myself, because I could see how this part of me needed to be right as a form of creating some type of protection and safety for myself. What I needed to do, however, was I needed the wise, adult, mature Vienna to actually step into her driver's seat, as opposed to the unhealed, unresolved, pained little girl who was like, this is not a safe environment. You have got to have it right.

0:47:02.37 → 0:47:24.23

You have got to prove your point. Otherwise it's not okay for you. And so to be able to step into this space of who is in front of me, it required some healing around that safety origin wound for me, but eventually that discernment of, okay, where am I now? What do I know to be true? Who am I with right now?

0:47:24.35 → 0:47:47.59

And how can I step away from the pain driving this behaviour versus my healing driving this behaviour? And easier said than done. Lots of layers and complexity to this, but I think that this is I hope that that offers something of just because I'm doing something that I feel ashamed of. Just because I'm doing something that I'm like. OOH.

0:47:47.61 → 0:48:12.33

I feel very embarrassed about this part of me when we can shift away from just existing in the shame and embarrassment and move towards the curiosity of what this is serving. Why is this here? What is this trying to protect me from? That's where the gifts are. And so, yeah, I would invite people to think about the things that they don't like about themselves, the things that they do that they're like, oh, this is not great.

0:48:12.40 → 0:48:33.83

I hate this. I wish I'd stopped doing this, and to actually become more curious about them, to see what it is that that behaviour might be attempting to protect. Yeah, totally. Beautifully said. The question that I know Dick Schwartz always asks around our parts, it's like, what is that part afraid would happen if it didn't do the thing?

0:48:34.00 → 0:49:02.22

In your case, what is it afraid would happen if I wasn't right or I didn't make sure that everyone was in agreement that I'm right? And we can get to the heart of, like, what's this really about? For me? Why does this feel so important and big and life or death? But, yeah, it's big work and it's messy work, but it's very rewarding and liberating work when we can have the courage to do it.

0:49:05.15 → 0:49:44.50

I'm glad that you said liberating. That's part of the subtitle of the book, how breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate the Way We Live in Love and very intentional about what the titles were. And that's right. I think in this work, there is an incredible liberation that takes place and that doing this work does change our relationships and our lives. My hope, my goal is that there is a much greater internal peace that actually takes place to live the life that you want, to have the relationships that you want.

0:49:44.55 → 0:50:07.52

Beautiful. Yes, of course. I think that's probably most people's goal, but this sense of internal peace, so profound, so powerful, so important. And when we begin to do this work, I think that leads us to that, to a sense of internal peace. Beautiful.

0:50:07.97 → 0:50:23.59

Vienna, thank you so much. This has been such a lovely conversation. If people want to go deeper with you and your work, where should they find you? Yeah, you can find me on Instagram. At @mindfulmft as in marriagefamilytherapy.

0:50:23.77 → 0:50:43.16

Viennaferon.com, NewYorkcouplescounseling.com. But almost all of my offerings are always in the bio of Instagram. But of course, the book, you can find that anywhere that books are sold. There's a lot of beautiful work there. And I'm always posting new offerings that we have going on.

0:50:43.95 → 0:51:00.89

Beautiful. And, yes, I echo all of that and certainly go out and buy the book and read the book or listen to the book. It is really profound and beautiful. And certainly, if you've enjoyed this conversation, you will love, love the origins of you. Thank you so much.

0:51:01.09 → 0:51:22.29

Thank you. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at Stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much.

0:51:22.41 → 0:51:25.48

Thanks again for being here, and I hope to see you again soon.

"How to enjoy being single when I really want a relationship?"

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

When you really want a relationship, enjoying being single can be something incredibly challenging. In today's Q&A style episode, I’m diving into how to enjoy being single when all you really want is a relationship.

WHAT WE’LL COVER:

• Owning your desire for a loving, healthy relationship

• Being grateful in the present

• What it means to actually enjoy your life being single

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Use the code PHOENIX for $150 off the Higher Love Course for a limited time only.

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.41 --> 0:00:40.45

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. You hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's episode is a Q and A episode and I am answering the question of how can I enjoy being single when, if I'm being honest, I really wish I was in a relationship.

0:00:40.62 --> 0:01:38.15

So I know a lot of people are in this situation of being single and deep down actually just wanting a relationship and probably coming up against a lot of advice on social media and elsewhere, telling them to enjoy being single and really savour in that experience and make the most of it. And you should be really happy that you're single. And while I think that advice is coming from a well intentioned place, sometimes it can be frustrating when that's just not how we're feeling and we can almost feel like we are deficient or we can feel some shame for our true desire, which is to be in a relationship. So I'm going to be talking through that and giving some reframes and perspective shifts and permission slips that will hopefully help you to navigate this period of your life, this season of your life, with a little more self. Compassion and in a way that allows you to have both.

0:01:38.27 --> 0:02:14.93

To own your desire to be in relationship while also enjoying your life as it is today. So that's what we're going to be talking about in today's episode. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements I wanted to share the featured review for today, which I've actually taken from Spotify. You might have heard me say recently, Spotify now lets you leave little comments under Episodes. And so to try and be fair to the people who are Spotify listeners rather than Apple, who haven't historically been able to leave reviews, I'm going to start drawing from the Spotify comments in addition to the Apple podcast.

0:02:15.01 --> 0:02:50.57

Reviews in the review of the week So today's is I discovered your podcast by chance while going through the hardest time in my life and I can't express the profound impact it's made. You taught me the wise and gave me hope for the future that I couldn't see. Thank you so much. That is such a touching and humbling review and I'm so, so grateful for you and I'm grateful that you found me and that you were able to find your way back to hope. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierig.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my Master classes.

0:02:50.70 --> 0:04:01.44

The other quick announcement that I wanted to share in keeping with the theme of today's episode, which is around being single and wanting to be in a relationship. My Higher Love Course, which is a breakup course that I created last year, is currently available for $150 off. So if you use the discount code Phoenix you can save $150 on the price of that course. It's a fully self study course where you get access to the full thing upon sign up and you can take it at your own pace. The reason that I'm mentioning that today is because in addition to helping you process a breakup, which the first half of the course is around, it also really allows you to embrace not only your life as a newfound single person, but to really own your desires and cultivate a level of clarity and confidence around your desires for future partnership in a way that feels really empowering rather than desperate or needy or any other negative label we might put on those things.

0:04:01.51 --> 0:04:34.32

So if you're someone who has been through a breakup recently and you are looking for some support or maybe it's not all that recent, but you think there's still some processing to do and some grieving to do around a previous relationship and you're looking to really anchor into greater self worth for the future. My higher love course is a really great option I've had. I think upwards of 300 students go through that course and it always gets really beautiful feedback. So that might be something to cheque out and I will link that in the show notes. Okay, so let's talk about this.

0:04:34.45 --> 0:05:08.90

How can I enjoy being single when I actually really just want to be in a relationship? So without knowing anything about the person who asked this question, I'm going to frame the discussion in terms of anxious attachment because I think that most people who have this experience probably will fall closer to that end of the spectrum in terms of their attachment patterns. I know that makes up a bulk of my listeners in any event. So I think that we have to start by just owning what we desire. And I alluded to this in the introduction.

0:05:09.01 --> 0:05:42.41

I think that we can feel almost pathetic. We can be really judgmental of ourselves for the fact that we want to be in a relationship and I think that that isn't helpful. As I always say, if you're feeling some sort of primary emotion like sadness or longing or grief or whatever else, anxiety even and rather than having compassion for that and seeking to understand it, we just put some judgement over the top and we criticise ourselves and make ourselves wrong for the way we're feeling. We are invariably making it worse. We are just adding fuel to the fire.

0:05:42.48 --> 0:06:31.24

We are adding more tension to a system that is already under stress. So it's really the opposite of what we need is to make ourselves wrong for a desire and I would say particularly for a desire that is as beautiful and pure as wanting to be in a healthy, loving relationship. I think that that is something that we should absolutely own and be proud of and be confident in. I don't think that that makes us desperate or needy or pathetic or any other thing that we might put on that I think we can just throw that kind of thinking in the bin. So my big permission slip for you at the outset of this episode and if you are someone who struggles with this, is you don't need to pretend not to want a relationship in order to enjoy being single.

0:06:31.37 --> 0:07:27.06

And indeed you are absolutely encouraged to own that desire, if that is your heart's desire to be in a relationship. Now, with that being said and holding that in one hand, can we find a way to hold in the other hand, enjoyment of life in whatever season you're in rather than making those things an either or? I can't enjoy being single because I want to be in a relationship. I think that this kind of thinking, this once I am there, then I can be happy. Once this other thing happens, this very conditional approach to our joy and contentedness and peace and satisfaction in life and it's really, really easy to get stuck in that because we can find ourselves, without even realising it, moving the goalposts on ourselves forever and ever and ever.

0:07:27.08 --> 0:08:23.72

It is this carrot dangling thing of once X-Y-Z thing happens, then I will be happy. Once I make this change about myself, then I will love myself, then I will accept myself. That is a real slippery slope and it's not actually conducive to happiness and fulfilment. Anyone will tell you, anyone who works in this space, teaches in this space, will tell you that the trick is to be grateful in the present for what you have while knowing what it is that you desire and being able to hold both of those things at the one time. So saying I really want to be in a relationship, that is my heart's desire and I'm not going to sit at home and shrink or not enjoy my life in anticipation of that thing or unless and until I have this thing.

0:08:23.90 --> 0:09:38.78

Because that is really placing way too much responsibility on a relationship to create our happiness or to be the sole source of our happiness and fulfilment and enjoyment of life. And what I would say to you is, and I talk about this in my higher love course, the calibre of relationship that you are going to attract as someone who has already created this beautiful, big, full, satisfying life, you are going to attract a really different calibre of person and relationship from that place, rather than the place of lack and emptiness. And I need some person to make me feel happy, to make me feel worthy, to make me feel pleasure and satisfaction and enjoyment. So I think that the more we can cultivate that as our baseline, as our starting point and really commit to building this very beautiful life with many pillars to it. Rather than just feeling the immense lack that can come with wanting to be in a relationship but not being in one, the more we focus on what we don't have that can really drag us down and probably lead us to indulge or engage in connections and relationships that

0:09:38.80 --> 0:09:40.14

aren't actually meeting.

0:09:40.17 --> 0:10:34.83

The bar that we would like to set for ourselves because we are coming from this place of anything is better than nothing that tends not to lead to the greatest relationship. So I think that the more we can enjoy our lives as single people, what we're really trying to do there is enjoy our own company and enjoy our work and enjoy what we spend our time doing and enjoy our friendships and really build out beautiful community. All of these things mean that we have many pillars to our lives and the relationship just becomes this beautiful addition to that landscape rather than the only thing propping up our lives and making us feel worthy and okay and giving us a sense of meaning where otherwise we would be plunged into darkness. That is an over indexing on a relationship and expecting it to solve all of your problems. So I think when people talk about can you enjoy life as a single person?

0:10:35.00 --> 0:10:57.87

It's not to say make the most of it, go out and sleep with a bunch of people because you can or you have to enjoy the process of casual dating. I don't think that that's what people mean. And if they do mean that, then if that doesn't resonate with you, again, you can chuck that in the bin. You don't have to take that on. And if it were me, that certainly wouldn't resonate with me because that's just not who I am.

0:10:58.02 --> 0:12:01.29

So I think that rather than hearing that advice around being single as meaning you have to enjoy dating lots of people or having those casual interactions, it's more can I see this season of my life as an opportunity. To really upgrade, to maybe do work on my own inner world, on my parts, on my woundedness and really all of that energy and attention that I'm accustomed to devoting to other people and focusing on them. Can I? Focus some of that back on me and use that as a way to nurture my relationship with myself and upgrade that relationship so that I'm ready to meet someone from a really grounded, secure, self respecting place in my next relationship. And can I trust that that will pay such dividends when the time comes rather than waiting and feeding stories of low self worth and of shame and of everything else and expecting that to yield a relationship that's going to solve all of my problems?

0:12:01.46 --> 0:12:56.51

I hate to be the one to tell you, but that almost invariably doesn't work. And so the more that we can use those transitional periods as opportunities to spring clean so to speak, that is a beautiful, beautiful time and it is a beautiful opportunity and as I said tends to pay huge dividends in terms of what we then make ourselves available for in another relationship. And even as I say that, I'm reminded to make the point that it's not like you are doing all of those things for someone else, you are doing them for yourself first and foremost. And that is an important reminder for anxiously attached people who tend to orient everything as being about someone else, to attract a partner or to make someone else happy or to get someone back or any other kind of agenda. It always tends to be other focused.

0:12:56.56 --> 0:14:12.89

And so as much as possible use this period of time where you don't have an other to orbit around as is your default to really tend to that relationship with yourself because that is your work for all anxiously attached people. That is your work is to build up a relationship with self that feels nourishing and self sustaining and allows a level of independence that you can then go to relationship from a place of choice rather than need and desperation and unsafety needing the relationship to make all of those fears go away. So I hope that that has given you a bit of a paradigm shift on how to relate to being single and also given you, as I said, a permission slip to want to be in a relationship because there is absolutely nothing wrong or shameful about holding that desire. But I suppose the takeaway being can you trust that this season is a beautiful opportunity to prepare for that and to really lay the foundations for the next relationship to be a really nourishing one and a really healthy one. And that the healthier you are going into that the more secure you

0:14:12.93 --> 0:14:18.91

are, the clearer you are, then that is going to be a really, really beautiful next relationship.

0:14:19.06 --> 0:14:36.80

So the work that you do in preparing yourself for that is certainly not going to be wasted. If you've enjoyed this episode, as always, super grateful. If you can leave a rating or a review, make sure you hit subscribe and follow the show. No matter where you're listening. Share it with the people in your life, share it on social media.

0:14:36.93 --> 0:14:48.86

All of that good stuff is hugely helpful in continuing to get the word out. Otherwise, I look forward to seeing you again soon. Thanks guys. Take care. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment.

0:14:48.97 --> 0:15:07.98

If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.

5 Communication Mistakes You're Making (& What to do instead)

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

In today's episode, I’m sharing five communication and conflict mistakes that I often see people making in relationships and what you can do instead to bridge a positive connection with your partner.

WHAT WE’LL COVER:

• Why we shouldn’t avoid the hard conversations

• What happens when we suppress our emotions

• How to express your desires with your partner

• Why we shouldn’t expect our partners to be mind readers

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.41 → 0:01:14.03

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. You welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm going to be sharing five communication and conflict mistakes that I often see people making in relationships and what you can do instead in order to cultivate greater understanding, mutual respect, and ultimately to be able to have conflict in a way that feels not only not scary, but actually positive, actually a bridge to connection and an effective way to cultivate greater understanding of one another and feel more connected rather than feeling like conflict. Is a one way ticket to really painful ruptures and disconnection and misunderstanding, which I think is certainly the case, or at least the starting point for a lot of us.

0:01:14.15 → 0:02:05.20

So I'm going to be sharing, as I said, some of the things that I think a lot of us do, and this will not exclusively be true for people who tend towards insecure attachment patterns. I think even if you are broadly secure in your attachment, you might have had less than ideal modelling around communication and conflict in your family system. But more often than not, I think that people who are either anxious or avoidant in their attachment strategies tend to be somewhat conflict averse and that can lead to a starting point of being really self protective when it comes to conflict. And so as soon as we're in that self protective mode straight off the bat, then obviously our strategies are going to be infused with that energy of self protection and it's really hard to connect from that place. So I am going to be talking about all of that and more.

0:02:05.25 → 0:02:29.84

Before I do, I just wanted to share the featured review for today, which is thanks for all you do, Stephanie. I've recommended On Attachment to all of my friends. This podcast has helped me own responsibility for my attachment style and actions while helping me bring compassion and understanding. It's been incredibly grounding to hear about the thousands of people just like me that Stephanie's helped. This podcast has made me feel less alone at a time when I felt so trapped in old thought patterns and anxieties.

0:02:29.95 → 0:02:58.22

Thank you, Stephanie, for your honesty, kindness and hopefulness. For the first time, I'm starting to feel like a healthy relationship is a possibility for me. Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I'm so glad that that's been your experience and I couldn't agree more that the experience of feeling like we are not alone and that reassurance of realising that other people are going through a very similar thing to us makes us feel so much more optimistic about there being a path forward. So I'm glad that you found that in the podcast.

0:02:58.36 → 0:03:40.75

If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around communication, mistakes that you might be making in your relationship and what to do instead. Now, this will apply somewhat to non romantic relationships, although, as always, this being a relationship focused podcast, I will frame it in that way. But just a note, if you're not currently in a relationship, there are certainly principles here that you can apply to non romantic relationships, whether that's with family, friends or colleagues or anyone else. So the first tip I want to give you here is don't avoid the hard conversations.

0:03:40.91 → 0:04:42.24

As I said in the introduction, I think that a lot of us, particularly if you are either more anxious or more avoidant, have a level of conflict aversion. And we can really avoid those hard conversations until we're at a boiling point, until the conversations sort of force themselves on us because we've put ourselves through so much stress by trying to avoid it or sidestep it or bypass it or tiptoe around it, and it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger inside us until it all comes out. So I think that if you are someone who really does struggle to have hard conversations, this is a really important thing to reprogram in yourself and it is a skill that we can learn. I think it can be a really vicious downward spiral. Because if you haven't got a lot of experience in having hard conversations in a safe and healthy way, then every time you do have these big conversations, if you're not having them in a way that sets you up.

0:04:42.26 → 0:05:09.60

For success. Then you're probably going to have these big, awful fights or attack, defend, or you say something, but you say it in a bit of a demanding way and then someone shuts down. And what does that do? That reinforces to your system hard conversations are unsafe, they threaten the relationship, they lead to people abandoning me or attacking me or whatever other story you might have. That might not just be a made up story, it might be based on your experience.

0:05:10.05 → 0:06:04.38

But I think it's really important, if that's the case, to recognise, okay, how am I contributing to the perpetuation of that experience and of that story that I have? So, noticing that as much as avoiding the hard conversations feels like it's something that we're doing from a place of keeping ourselves safe, if we think that the hard conversations are not safe, then of course we're going to want to avoid them. But it really costs us a lot because, as I've said before, usually when we try and avoid those conversations, this is more for my anxious folk, we suppress our needs, we suppress our concerns, but it's like the less we talk about them, the more we think about them. I've said this to my partner before that if we're not talking about something that we both know is going on and it feels like an elephant in the room, it's deafeningly loud to me inside. And the more that we avoid it, the louder it is for me.

0:06:04.43 → 0:06:47.22

It takes up so much space inside of me to avoid it. And so if that's true for you as well, just consider, am I really achieving anything by trying to avoid these conversations? Because if you're anything like me, it probably just comes out in a more distressed and escalated way somewhere down the track as a result of trying to suppress it. So one of the best things that you can do, and if you take nothing else away from today's episode than this, please learn to have the hard conversations and trust that the earlier you have them, the less hard they will be. And the more often that you have them, the less hard they will be, because they just don't come with the same energy of pent up, stressed, overwhelmed.

0:06:47.33 → 0:07:46.16

I've spent three weeks building up the stories around this and making a lot of meaning and interpreting everything you say and do and don't say and don't do through the lens of this story. I've been telling myself the more we can fast track that and nip it in the bud, have the conversations when something first arises, we're much better off because we're going to be able to cheque those stories, connect, get our needs met, share what's bothering us and just air the grievances or whatever else is on our heart and on our mind that it's pretty rare, that just avoiding something and letting it grow and fester is the path forward. So that's the first mistake. Try not to keep avoiding the hard conversations. As I've said many times before, whatever scary truth you think might be revealed in the conversations you're avoiding, if it already exists in your relationship, it already exists in your relationship, the conversation is just the thing that's going to reveal it, right?

0:07:46.21 → 0:08:25.88

So I think we have to be courageous and have those conversations and trust that we will be all the stronger for it. Okay, the next communication and conflict mistake that I see a lot and again have experienced myself, as with most of the things I talk about on this podcast, is fighting about fighting. So what do I mean by this? Have you ever been in an argument with someone and it starts as an argument about a situation or a set of circumstances or what you're feeling or needing or whatever it might be, but very soon you start fighting about the way you're fighting. So it's things like, are you going to say something?

0:08:25.98 → 0:08:50.86

Or I can't believe you're just sitting there, or Why are you ignoring me? Or don't speak to me like that. Or whatever it is but it becomes less about substance and more about form. So we start attacking each other on the way that we are talking rather than actually engaging with the substance of what we were meaning to talk about, what was bothering us. And it should be obvious that this is completely ineffective.

0:08:50.97 → 0:09:38.81

When you notice that happening, then just know that the horse is bolted, the conversation is a dead end and you are much better off to just take a break, take a time out, call it for what it is, say look, we're clearly not getting anywhere, let's regroup in an hour, or whatever it might be. But don't just keep following that rabbit hole of attacking and defending not even the substance of what was bothering you, but actually just fighting about the way that you are fighting. This is just so common. And if it's not something you've been aware of prior to now, I promise you, now you'll notice it and you'll realise just how common it is to nitpick at each other about the way that we are communicating. And really when we're doing that, as always, we can go, okay, what's behind my complaint or my criticism?

0:09:38.99 → 0:10:07.91

What's the unmet need? And if you're getting angry at someone for not saying something as quickly as you would like, or for getting defensive or whatever it might be, it's like what do I actually need here? And try and voice that say I know that you're just processing, but it's really hard for me when you go quiet for ten minutes or whatever it might be. Right? But share the vulnerability that is within you rather than armoring up and attacking because that will almost always make it worse.

0:10:08.04 → 0:10:45.75

So that leads me nicely into my third communication mistake, which is criticising rather than voicing desires. So a really, really helpful and easy rule of thumb is instead of criticising your partner, express what the desire is underneath your criticism or your complaint. So if you're frequently criticising your partner for whatever it might be, you never are affectionate with me, or you're always on your phone or you never let me know when you're running late or whatever. Right? Think of all of the things that we can be critical about, whether we voice them or not.

0:10:45.95 → 0:11:21.01

But with a little bit of interrogation and really not much, because oftentimes the desires sit pretty close to the surface, with a little bit of interrogation, you'll see that there is a desire underneath that. So as I said, we tend to armour up and lead with our sword. We attack someone because that feels less vulnerable than sharing. When you're on your phone, when I'm talking to you, I feel really unimportant to you and that scares me. It scares me to not feel like you care about what I have to say, even if it's just telling you boring stuff about my day.

0:11:21.05 → 0:11:48.92

It would mean so much to me to have that time protected and connected for us to sit together without our phones, is that something that you'd be open to doing? Can you see how that is so much more likely to be received in a way that invites engagement and reflection and response rather than telling someone, why do I even bother being in a relationship with you? Because you're always on your phone. I may as well just live here by myself. That's how disengaged you are, right?

0:11:49.02 → 0:12:25.06

When we go with that, it's like, yeah, I'm keeping myself safe somehow by leading with that level of aggression and attack. And it's not to excuse or explain away someone's behaviour that you might be unhappy with, but it is to take responsibility for the ways in which our response to that behaviour might be entrenching us in painful dynamics rather than forging a path out of those dynamics and towards greater connection. So think about it. What is the desire underneath my complaint or my criticism? And can I be brave enough to show my heart and voice that?

0:12:25.24 → 0:13:05.69

And even if my partner can't meet me in it or doesn't meet me in it, I am still so much better off sharing that honesty and that vulnerability from a place of integrity and open heartedness than if I join them in some sort of negativity and criticism and whatever else might be the dynamic of the relationship. You don't win by joining them in the trenches in that. So take the high road without being high and mighty about it and voice the desires that sit underneath your criticisms and see what happens. You might be surprised. Okay, the next communication and conflict mistake that I see a lot is schoolkeeping and kitchen sinking.

0:13:05.79 → 0:13:23.90

So what do these terms mean? Schoolkeeping should be obvious enough. It's when we go, well, why should I have to do this when you haven't done that? We can do this in lots of different settings. Maybe it'll be I've called you the last three times that we've met up for a date and you haven't called me since.

0:13:23.95 → 0:14:41.04

This time we're really keeping tally on inputs to the relationship, on effort, on who does what and when and all of that. And really, apart from the fact that that's exhausting to be in that mode of scrutinising and score keeping our relationship, it really is just an indicator that we feel a sense of imbalance and maybe we don't feel valued for our contribution and so we feel the need to keep jumping up and down and making a point of it. I think, relatedly, we can sort of gatekeep our love from this place. We can become very protective and feel like to the extent that there's an imbalance in contributions or in inputs, we don't want to be loving because we don't want to skew it further and feel like we're going to send that imbalance to further extremes. So if we do feel like we are the one who usually initiates contact or plans dates or does more stuff around the house, whatever it might be, we start getting really defensive of our contribution and contributing less or becoming very resentful about it because we are so acutely aware of this perceived imbalance and all

0:14:41.06 → 0:14:43.30

of the stories that come with it.

0:14:43.35 → 0:15:29.31

So we usually are doing a lot of meaning making when we're in this score keeping mindset, we're making it mean that someone doesn't care about us or that they're entitled or that they take us for granted or that they're lazy or they don't respect us, right? There's a lot of pretty significant stories that come with that that can be really harmful. So when you notice that score keeping mindset in your relationship, the first thing that you should be doing is getting really curious around what's going on with you. What are the unmet needs that are leading me to use this strategy of scorekeeping? Whether it's just me huffing and puffing and internally scorekeeping and harbouring that resentment or whether I'm waving that in front of my partner and trying to get them to see what is the underlying need.

0:15:29.48 → 0:16:08.62

And can I ask that? Can I be really clear around my communication rather than just spinning around in the resentment and the kind of victim mindset? Because I think a lot of us can go there when we feel hurt or unsupported but again, it usually doesn't help us to get what we really desire. The other part to this one that I mentioned was kitchen sinking. So this is not exactly related but it's this tendency to raise one issue and then raise 234-5678 other issues when we have a conversation with our partner.

0:16:08.68 → 0:17:14.99

So we might start a conversation about one thing and then our partner might get defensive and then we might pile on another one and another one and another one. So it's you didn't take the rubbish out last night and you didn't do this and you didn't do that and you were late home last Tuesday and you never even put in effort anymore and I can't remember the last time you cooked dinner for me and right. Again, this is kind of the flip side of the suppression of our needs is that we say nothing and then when we finally get the opportunity, it's like we finally have our moment. We have the microphone, we have centre stage and we just come at someone with this barrage of things that we've been suppressing and tell them all of the ways, seemingly unrelated, that they have been inadequate or that they've been messing up or that they've missed the mark or not meeting our needs or expectations. And I think this is particularly common among anxiously attached people.

0:17:15.08 → 0:17:52.54

Again, never any judgement when I call this out because I am guilty of it. But it's this thing of I've been suppressing my needs because I don't want to be too needy, too burdensome. I don't want to be a nag, I don't want to be critical, but I still have all of these grievances that I'm very aware of. And so when I finally get the opportunity, if we're having an argument or I do feel like that window is there for me to say these things, I can feel a sense of scarcity around it. I don't want to keep it to one issue because what if I don't get another opportunity for another month or something to share all of these other things that have been bothering me?

0:17:52.56 → 0:18:54.05

So I just have to ram them all in there now and let you know all of the things that you've been doing wrong. Now that I have this opportunity and now that I have your attention and I feel like this is my moment, needless to say that this is not a very effective strategy, particularly if you have a more avoidant partner, they're going to feel really very quickly overwhelmed and demoralised by that kind of communication style. This sense of you're just hitting me with a tidal wave, of all of the ways in which I am inadequate and all of the ways in which I am failing you as a partner because you are so unhappy with me. Now, you might see it differently, but that is, I guarantee you, how they will see it and experience it and we can kind of understand that if we can step outside of our own stuff and look at that situation a little more objectively. Just being hit with this long list of complaints about all the ways in which you aren't stacking up or you aren't fulfilling your partner's needs, can feel really attacking and in.

0:18:54.09 → 0:19:45.78

Most people will trigger defensiveness. So as much as possible, try to keep your conversations to one issue rather than leading with this long list of things and capitalising on the opportunity and trying to air every single grievance and resolve every single issue and just keep the conversation going for hours and hours because you feel like that is your one window of opportunity. The fifth and final communication mistake that I wanted to share is stop expecting your partner to read your mind. Now, I know that this is not romantic. I know that we all wish that our partner was a mind reader and that we wouldn't have to tell them what we need and tell them how we would like our needs to be met and tell them how we're feeling and tell them what might be bothering us or whatever other thing might be on your mind.

0:19:45.83 → 0:20:39.17

And feeling heavy and taking up a lot of space. But the more we have that expectation, which is just not realistic, the more we then again make meaning out of the fact that our partner hasn't been able to read our mind and we get really upset and we probably start engaging in some of those protest behaviours to indirectly get their attention. Maybe we get a bit quiet and withdrawn or sulky or short tempered and try and elicit that what's wrong? Kind of response in our partner so that we then get the space to share because we don't feel comfortable expressing it. So I know that this can be really hard and I know that, as I said, in an ideal world, our partners would be mind readers and we would never have to step into the vulnerability of sharing and asking for things and being direct and being open because it is vulnerable, right?

0:20:39.21 → 0:21:22.11

It opens us up to rejection. It opens us up to the possibility that our partner cannot or doesn't want to be there or support us or meet our needs or that they just might not respond in the exact way that we would like them to. It's vulnerable, it's edgy, it's scary, but it's also just part and parcel of being in a healthy relationship is being direct and being communicative. And the more that we play these games of pretending to be low maintenance or not asking for things or shapeshifting or trying to not have needs, I mean, you tell me, how is that working out for you? Because I know that when I've tried that, it hasn't worked terribly well.

0:21:22.28 → 0:21:51.16

It just leads me to feel more anxious and stressed. And as I said earlier, the less you talk about it, the more you think about it. And it just takes up a lot of space and really occupies a lot of real estate in your mind and in your emotional body. It's a heavy burden to carry. So as much as it's not the most romantic or sexy thing in the world to have to spell it out for our partners, try and believe that they care and that they really want to be able to support you.

0:21:51.18 → 0:22:40.07

But you might just have to be a little more of an active participant in that process, rather than expecting it all to happen magically. Okay, so that was five communication and conflict mistakes. I hope that that has been interesting and helpful for you. As I said, I know a lot of people really struggle with this and it's a very commonly requested podcast topic to do stuff around conflict, so I might have to do some more on this again soon. But I hope that that's given you at least a starting point of things to think about, of ways that we can go wrong and what you can do instead to create conflict that's not only not excruciatingly painful and stressful, but actually helps you to feel more connected and really understand each other's needs and feel closer as a result.

0:22:40.24 → 0:23:06.64

Because it is possible. As much as that might feel totally alien to you if it's not been your experience, I guarantee you it is possible and it's a skill that you can learn. As always, if you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a five star review, a rating. You can leave a little comment on Spotify underneath the episode, share it with the people in your life. All of those good things really help so much in getting the word out, but otherwise, I look forward to seeing you again soon.

0:23:06.74 → 0:23:27.93

Thanks guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much.

0:23:28.05 → 0:23:30.62

Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.

Is “once a cheater, always a cheater” true?

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

Cheating within relationships can cause so much pain, grief and sensitivity around betray and infidelity. In today's Q&A style episode, I’m sharing my thoughts on if people can really change if they’ve cheated in the past and advice for people in the situation with concerns that their partner may not stay faithful.

WHAT WE’LL COVER:

• Learning from mistakes

• The messy feelings that lead to infidelity

• Tending to needs that aren’t being met

• Expressing self awareness and regret

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.41 → 0:00:38.93

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, which is a Q and A episode, I'm going to be talking about the old saying of once a cheater, always a cheater.

0:00:39.01 → 0:01:16.30

And this was inspired by a question that I received on Instagram, which was, my partner has been married three times and he's had an affair each time, will he change? So I've used this as a bit of a springboard into a broader conversation around the once a cheater, always a cheater saying that I'm sure we're all familiar with, and I'm going to be unpacking. That a little talking. About patterns of infidelity talking about whether you need to be concerned as someone in relationship with someone who has a pattern of cheating in their relationships or maybe even if you are the person who has had that pattern. Of infidelity.

0:01:16.44 → 0:02:16.71

Maybe you don't trust yourself not to do it again, and you have some fear and anxiety around your own patterns and behaviours. So I'm going to be sharing some thoughts on this. This will be a shorter episode as it's a Q and A episode, but I do have planned for a few weeks time more of a deep dive on why people cheat and different explanations for that and kind of digging a little deeper on this topic of infidelity rather than just casting someone as a villain and shrouding the whole thing in a lot of shame and not really engaging in the conversation in a way that is at all productive or that offers any humanity or insight in a way that we can actually make use of. Because I think, of course, there is so much pain and grief and sensitivity around this topic of infidelity and betrayal, but it can block us from having some important conversations because it is such a sensitive topic. So today will be, I suppose, a bit of a teaser for that episode that will be coming in a few weeks time.

0:02:16.78 → 0:02:43.78

So if you aren't already a subscriber or a follower of the show, make sure you do that so that you get those notifications when new episodes come out and you can catch that one when it comes out in a few weeks time. Okay? So before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. The first being that applications for my Homecoming Mastermind are still open. The group is filling up, so if you are interested in working with me directly over the long term, so it's a six month programme, I would love to receive your application.

0:02:44.15 → 0:03:19.72

I'm really excited to share that I've decided to open this round up to everyone. So previously, the first cohort of Homecoming was women only. But upon reflection and having received applications from men who really are in need of this work and are so there and ready and willing to do that work, I didn't feel good about having to turn people away who were in that position. So I've decided that I will open it up to all. So if you are interested in that, I would love to receive your application.

0:03:19.85 → 0:03:43.17

All of the details about Homecoming and the link to apply is in the show. Notes second quick announcement is just to share the featured review for today, which is Stephanie. And On Attachment is exactly what I needed on my journey. It's so hard finding the right fit when it comes to podcasts, and yet it was so easy. When I stumbled across Stephanie's on Attachment, I could immediately relate to the topics and the way Stephanie presents them.

0:03:43.24 → 0:03:56.19

I felt understood and at ease that I'm not alone in my journey. In a short span of time, I binge through every single episode. Now I find myself waiting for the latest one to drop. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and insight in such a real and considerate manner. I appreciate you and your work.

0:03:56.28 → 0:04:23.95

Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I appreciate you right back and thank you for taking the time to share that review. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes. Okay, let's dive into this conversation around once a cheater, always a cheater. So I think it's important to frame this discussion by saying in my mind, people can change and people do change.

0:04:24.10 → 0:05:06.50

I think that once a cheater, always a cheater is predicated on the notion that people cannot change, that there is some sort of fixed part of our nature, and that if you are the type of person who would cheat, then that is who you are and how you are. And you will continue to do that in every relationship, in every setting, because you are kind of fundamentally bad or broken and that's going to follow you wherever you go. I don't like that at all. I don't think that that is honest or realistic or kind to ourselves. And I don't think it really engages with what is going on when infidelity takes place in a relationship, which, as I alluded to, is a whole bigger discussion.

0:05:06.61 → 0:05:58.81

But in short, there are so many reasons why someone might break trust in a relationship by cheating on someone. And many of those reasons are not just because they are an uncaring, selfish person who is trying to do harm to those around them, or who is reckless or indifferent to the harm caused to those around them. So I think that understanding and recognising that people do absolutely change and grow and can do something once and feel immense shame and regret or maybe do it more than once and feel immense shame and regret and that they can take that regret as feedback and use that to course correct in future. I think that that is absolutely possible and indeed happens a lot. With that being said, I think that infidelity is complex and messy.

0:05:58.89 → 0:07:04.30

And while I don't think that it's driven by some sort of essential, fundamental wrongness or badness in a person 99% of the time, I do think it's driven by our shadow parts. Parts of us that are wounded, parts of us that feel inadequate, that feel a lot of shame, that feel uncomfortable with intimacy, that want to sabotage, that want to wreck things, that feel undeserving or unworthy. There's a lot there, and a lot of that is big, ugly, messy, painful stuff that we will go to great lengths to avoid feeling or being with or looking at. And so to the extent that infidelity has been driven by those shadow parts, parts of us that are maybe out of integrity or not in alignment with our values and who we want to be, then I think that we can continue to repeat those patterns until those wounded parts are tended to. I think oftentimes it's a call out from the parts of us that really do need our attention.

0:07:04.44 → 0:07:43.69

And if we kind of ignore that invitation and just blindly act in unhealthy or destructive ways, then obviously we're not addressing the core problem. And I suppose that's the point I'm trying to make is if you are dating someone, in the case of the person who asked this question, my husband been married three times and had an affair every time. If I were working with you, my question to you, Betty if I were working with him, my question would be, tell me about each of those times. What part of you was driving the bus when you made those decisions, what need was getting met by the affair? And have you tended to that part of you?

0:07:43.89 → 0:08:35.69

Because if not, then sure there's a good chance that that part will continue to jump up and down and try to get our attention and try to get that need met the only way it knows how. And maybe the way it knows how to do that or the way it has found solace from whatever pain or discomfort or other feelings are there has been in having an affair, in seeking out the attention and the validation of someone new where it doesn't feel as vulnerable as whatever is going on in the primary relationship. So I think that what I'd be looking for is have I grown through that woundedness? Have I given adequate care and attention to those wounded parts of me? Have I integrated that pain and really grieved whatever's there and cared for it?

0:08:35.86 → 0:09:06.79

Or is that wounded part of me still driving the bus? Okay, I think the other thing that I would add is for many people, infidelity is this bright line thing. So if you have never been unfaithful, if you've never crossed the line, then you might have certain ideas about yourself as to the type of person that you are. Meaning I would never do that, I'm not someone who cheats, that's not who I am. And that's kind of a nice clean bright line that you are squarely on one side of.

0:09:06.91 → 0:09:47.43

I think once you have crossed that line, then this big precipice that you are on the brink of and maybe you feel a lot of shame. And so that clean identity that you might have held onto previously, where you might have felt, I'm not that type of person. Maybe that perfectionistic view of yourself is shattered a little, and in so doing, you dismantle that identity and chip away at some self worth or some self respect. And that might lead you to being more inclined to repeat those behaviours. Because that bright line has already been crossed before.

0:09:47.58 → 0:10:25.18

So you no longer have this clean record that you can be really proud of. So I think that can happen. It's like the diminishing marginal impact in your own being of infidelity in a way that makes it not feel like as big a deal. Particularly maybe if you've gotten away with it in the past, if nothing bad happened, then whatever ideas you had around the gravity of infidelity might not be there. So you might not have experienced the grave consequences of that if you got away with it and so it might feel less consequential to do it again.

0:10:25.28 → 0:10:59.77

So that might be another factor as well. I think the last thing I'd say, and again this is more directed to the person who asks the question or anyone else in a similar situation, with similar fears or concerns, is how much self awareness does this person display around that pattern? And I think that that is ultimately going back to what I said around have they tended to the wounds? Do they understand who was driving the bus? Because if that were me, and I were in a relationship with someone who had that history, I'd be keen to understand do they know what that was really about for them?

0:10:59.81 → 0:11:54.99

Do they know what need was trying to get met? Because if they don't have the self awareness around it and they haven't taken responsibility, if they haven't done that integration work, then that might suggest that they could fall into similar patterns again in the future. Whereas having a great deal of self awareness around it and being able to own it and be accountable and take responsibility, that would give me a lot more comfort than someone who sheepishly admitted to something, but then didn't. Want to talk about it, for example, or who was maybe not forthcoming about that information at all and you found it out separately and those sorts of things. I think if someone is able to own their mistakes and express remorse and regret and self awareness around why that won't happen again, then that might be the evidence of growth that can give you comfort in being able to trust them again.

0:11:55.14 → 0:12:38.01

I hope that that has been helpful and interesting for you. And as I said, if infidelity is a topic of interest to you, and I know that's true for many people or otherwise you are in this situation, or a similar situation, or maybe you've been on the receiving end of infidelity in the past, or you have been the person who has breached trust. There will be another episode in a few weeks time all about cheating and why people cheat, so definitely keep an ear out for that. If you've enjoyed this episode, as always, eternally grateful for those of you who can leave a five star rating or a review. It is so helpful for me in continuing to get the word out about the podcast and sharing it with people in your life, all of those good things.

0:12:38.13 → 0:13:02.02

Otherwise, I look forward to seeing you again in the next episode. Thanks guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much.

0:13:02.15 → 0:13:04.74

Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.

Helping Men Thrive in Life & Relationships with Connor Beaton

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

In today's episode, I'm talking with NY-based coach, teacher and speaker, Connor Beaton about the challenges men are facing in our modern society. Connor and I talk through how understanding the experience of men better, we can cultivate healthier relationships and happier and more fulfilled lives. 

WHAT WE’LL COVER:

• Numbing out pain from childhood and using unhealthy coping mechanisms

• Stopping the cycle of running away from yourself

• What it looks like inside a relationship when men are lacking confidence & competence

• How vulnerability can be practised with men

• What makes a great relationship

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.41 → 0:00:34.77

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to on Attachment. In today's episode, I'm joined by Connor Beaton, who is the founder of Man Talks.

0:00:34.85 → 0:01:02.94

We're going to be talking all about, as you might have guessed, men in particular. Some of the challenges that are facing men in our modern society, how that shows up in relationships, some guidance for men, and maybe also some guidance for people in relationship with men on understanding that experience a little better so that we can cultivate healthier relationships, happier and more fulfilling lives. So, Connor, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. You bet.

0:01:02.99 → 0:01:30.55

Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. So you've just released a book which is super exciting. Congratulations. I wonder if maybe we could kick off by you sharing a little bit of your own story as you do in the book, how you came into this work and your experience of, as you described it, I think hitting rock bottom and the come to Jesus moment that that presented for you.

0:01:30.62 → 0:02:29.55

If you're open to sharing a little bit with the listeners and giving them a bit of context for how you came to be where you are, I think that'd be great. Yeah, they got to buy the book to hear the story. No, I mean, one of the things I just want to know before I even say any of that, is that it's very common for us as men to have bought into this notion that we need to bottom out in order for things to change. And I see a lot of guys out there who can tell that they're on this downward trajectory towards imploding their marriage or destroying their business or their health or friendship or family relationships, whatever it is. Part of the reason why I do this work and wrote this book was I wanted to give guys a kind of resource that they could do the work in, because I think maybe, if you haven't noticed, not every man is open to therapy.

0:02:29.73 → 0:03:29.39

And so the book is kind of like a way for them to dive deep into some type of work that doesn't require them to go sit in therapy for weeks, months or years. My journey was one where I really did know that I was moving towards a rock bottom. If you had met me at the time, on the outside it looked like I was living a great life. I had wonderful relationship, I had a good career, I was travelling the world, I had the motorcycle and the Mustang, which at the time seemed very important to me. Maybe not the choice of cars that people would ultimately go with, but I had the things I had acquired and built a life that I thought presented me as a man in a certain way, presented this sort of air of accomplishment and success and hoped that along with that would come happiness.

0:03:29.73 → 0:04:32.58

And the challenge was that when I got there, having this career, travelling the world and having this relationship, I was still miserable. And a lot of that was because behind the scenes I had these we'll call them sort of the fancy term is maladaptive coping mechanisms. But I had these addictive behaviours that I had going on infidelity cheating in my relationship, using alcohol, substances, pornography, and I was very much out of control and I was out of control because I didn't like who I was. And I didn't like who I was because in many ways I had experienced a lot of pain and hurt in childhood that I didn't know how to deal with and no one had really shown me what to do with that pain and hurt as a young man, as an adult. And so I tried to deal with that pain and hurt by numbing it out, by drinking excessively or smoking weed or whatever it was.

0:04:33.03 → 0:05:17.41

And so I came into this work because that way of being wasn't workable for me anymore. And the lack of self respect and self love and self appreciation that I had for myself really brought me into some dark places and it caused me to sort of destroy everything that was going on in my life. My relationship fell apart. She found out that I was cheating on her, that I had cheated on her multiple times and I tried to talk my way out of it and it didn't work for a good reason and thank God it didn't. And I was questioning leaving my career and sort of all of these things came imploding in at one time and I didn't want to tell anybody.

0:05:17.52 → 0:05:41.68

I sort of bought into this, what I call in the book the one rule of men, which is when you're struggling, when you're suffering, just don't talk about it. It's kind of like the first rule of Fight Club which is you don't talk about Fight Club. Right? So I had bought into this notion that if I was struggling I need to figure it out by myself and that if I was struggling as a man that there was something inherently wrong with me. And so there was a lot of shame, there was a lot of self loathing.

0:05:41.74 → 0:06:09.07

Yeah, I was really in a bad place. And when I came out of the other side of that, after living out of the back of my car for a few weeks, not telling people what was going on, kind of in denial of what was happening, I started to connect with other men in my life. I connected with my mentor and a couple of things happened. One, I started to sort of be greeted by men in my life. When I would open up and tell them what had been going on, they reciprocated.

0:06:09.23 → 0:06:36.29

So, just a sort of brief aside like I read about in the book after my rock bottom having a conversation with a friend of mine who I had gone to university with and I'd known sort of everything about. And I opened up and I said, here's what's been going on, here's how I've been struggling. Here's what's really been going on behind the scenes that you haven't known about the infidelities and the pornography and the drug use and all this kind of stuff. And well, there wasn't a tonne of drug use. It was mostly alcohol.

0:06:36.34 → 0:07:14.52

But I opened up and told him what had been going on, and I shared pretty openly. And he paused and thanked me for my capacity to just sort of be real about what was transpiring and proceeded to share with me that he had been struggling with depression for a number of months and hadn't talked about it. And that it had gotten so bad that he had tried to take his own life. And in that moment, I really was sort of dumbstruck by this glaring notion. I thought I knew everything about this guy.

0:07:14.97 → 0:08:02.82

I knew the type of women he liked to date, I knew the type of scotch he liked to drink and the video games he liked to play. I knew all of that. But I didn't know that he had been struggling so much that he had tried to take his own life. And he knew everything about me, minus the fact that I was completely out of control behind the scenes and that I had been having affairs and getting drunk by myself and all this sort of ridiculous stuff, that I had really been cratering myself in my life and self destructing. And so that got me very present to the fact that maybe I should just sort of say as a caveat that I started to see that happening in many of my conversations with many of the men in my life, where I told them what I was going through and what was going on and what I was trying to work on.

0:08:02.95 → 0:09:01.74

And they reciprocated by telling me stuff that they hadn't been talking about marriages that were struggling, affairs that were happening, careers that they were very dissatisfied about, or businesses that were on the brink of falling apart. And I was really struck by how many of the men in my life I had surface level relationships with and that many of us as men had felt this kind of loneliness and isolation because we weren't talking about the real things that were going on behind the scenes. We were all sort of creating this appearance of what we thought we needed to be as men. And I think for good reason. I think society and culture and women and other men still want strong men and so there's a bit of a conundrum that a lot of us as men I found myself at least in of trying to, quote unquote, have my shit together but also being able to talk about where I'm struggling.

0:09:01.85 → 0:09:41.37

So that was one major thing. And then the last thing I'll say is I came into this work because of an elder. Because a man in my life who was in his seventy s I talked to him and tried to get some advice and guidance. And this elder happened to be versed in Union Psychology and Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and NLP and Gestalt and Buddhism and Taoism. And it sort of turned into this apprenticeship style relationship where for two and a half years after my quote unquote rock bottom, I would apprentice with him and learn all of these therapeutic modalities and spiritual modalities.

0:09:41.55 → 0:10:42.79

And in some ways, it really not only Saved me but put me on a different path and put me On A path where I wanted to be of service to other men who were going through, were on the path towards where I was going or were trying to come out the other side of what I had been through. And not that the details their life needs to look exactly the same, but men who are trying to better themselves in some capacity so maybe that's a little bit of a longer story than was necessary but no, that's great. There are so many pieces there. It sounds like a big part of that reckoning was like honesty with yourself, followed by honesty with others. And it's sort of like stopping that cycle of just running away from yourself, because I think we can all do that to varying capacities, in varying ways, but it's like there's ultimately no running away from yourself in any sustainable way.

0:10:42.83 → 0:11:08.19

Right. It catches up with you. It's like that wherever I go, there I am thing. And that's, I think, why it's so important for us to turn towards all of our shit. Whether that's relational stuff, whether it's low self worth childhood stuff, it's coming with you until you do the work of turning towards it and understanding it and healing it.

0:11:08.31 → 0:11:52.94

I think it'd be really helpful to hear a little more around like what do you see as being and particularly in the context of relationships, what do you see as being the key challenges that men are facing? Whether that's kind of observing from afar or the men that are coming to you, what are the key themes that emerge? Yeah, I mean there's a number of them. I think we're in a very interesting time socially and culturally where men are very much in decline and we can see this right? It's like 41% of college graduates are men so it's a very small percentage comparatively and less men are in the dating field than ever before.

0:11:52.99 → 0:12:25.51

Right. It's something like 27% of men under the age of 30 either haven't been sexually active or are in a relationship within the last twelve months, compared to 12% of women. You have 32% of men under the age of 29 that are still living at home versus living with a partner. So you have this sort of rise of men checking out from culture and society. And a lot of that is pointing to a couple things which I see happening within the context of relationships.

0:12:25.67 → 0:13:19.92

So one is there's a lack, I think, of men who are really feeling a sense of competence and coherence around what they contribute to the world, to society, to their friends, to their family, to their relationship. We as men want to have some form of function for the most part, right? We want to have purpose, we want to have meaning, we want to contribute. And I think part of the challenge that a lot of men are facing is that either they're looking out into the culture and they're being told you're not a value, you're not needed, you're not necessary, or they're entering into relationships and they're being told directly or indirectly, I don't need you. And that for most men, reinforces the second piece, which is isolation.

0:13:20.11 → 0:14:01.33

So a lot of men within relationships, what they're often struggling with and dealing with is a kind of isolation. They might not have a lot of other male friends and so they're over indexing on their intimate relationship, needing that person to really be everything for them, right? Needing them to be their emotional processing centre and help them understand how they're feeling and help them talk about their challenges and help them sort of discuss their dreams and their goals. Or they're isolated in the sense that they refuse to do any of that, right? They won't even go near a heart centred conversation.

0:14:01.41 → 0:14:22.95

They won't even talk about how they're feeling. And so when conflict comes up, they shut down. So those are sort of the high level things. I think what a lot of guys that are coming to me with in the context of the relationship is what I call self leadership. So a lot of men come to work with me because they don't feel like they're leading themselves effectively.

0:14:23.08 → 0:14:38.83

And so how that's showing up in their relationship? Is there's lots of conflict? They're shutting down a lot. They're very angry and resentful, but they don't know how to communicate it or it's sort of poisoning the waters of their intimacy. They have poor boundaries and they don't know how to stand up for themselves.

0:14:38.92 → 0:15:05.23

And so they're constantly playing into this game of if I just make you happy, then maybe you'll meet my needs. So there's a lot of that happening within the context of relationships. And I think we're also in an interesting time where I think more than ever, men are looking for solutions. I think we're in a time where a lot of men are starting to reflect on how do I develop myself? How do I better myself?

0:15:05.30 → 0:15:41.03

How do I be a better partner or husband or father or leader in general? So those are some of the things that stand out to me. Whether a man is lacking confidence or lacking competence. I think those are two interconnected things where maybe the last thing that I'll say is that and this isn't every man, but I think a lot of men take on the success or the burden of the relationship working. A lot of men gauge their value and their worth based on how the relationship is doing.

0:15:41.23 → 0:16:15.75

So if the relationship is doing well, that means that he's a success and he's a good man and all is well. If the relationship is doing poorly, then oftentimes a lot of guys and again, this isn't every man, but a lot of men will make it mean that they're a failure and that they're doing something wrong, and it sort of impinges on their sense of self worth. So there's a number of different factors, but I think ultimately it really boils down to how a man is leading himself in the relationship. Is he communicating the way that he wants? Is he having the hard conversations?

0:16:15.93 → 0:16:33.48

Is he exploring sexually in the way that he wants? Is he being open and honest about what he wants to explore sexually with his partner? Because that can be wildly uncomfortable. Is he doing what's necessary to understand his own internal landscape? Right?

0:16:33.53 → 0:16:53.95

His own emotions, his own reactivity, his own anger so that it's not infringing on his ability to hear what his partner is going through? So most of the time, that's what a guy's struggling with. There's a great quote by Carl Jung. He said that women stand at the edge of what a man knows about himself. A woman stands where a man's shadow begins.

0:16:54.37 → 0:17:35.24

And so a lot of the times guys come to me and what's happened is that they have externalised a lot of their power onto their partner and they're trying to figure their partner out. We kind of talk ourselves as men into this notion of, like well, if I just figure you out if I just figure out what I need to fix for you and what I need to give for you and get for you and provide for you. And if I can just figure out how to make you happy, then maybe I'll have a chance at that. And we miss, in that process who we become. We miss our reactivity, we miss our insecurities, we miss our fears, we miss our desires.

0:17:35.38 → 0:18:20.73

We kind of take a backseat in that process. And so what ends up happening is that a man in a relationship will slowly start to isolate in one way or another whether he's isolating his sexual desires, whether he's isolating his boundaries, whether he's isolating his empathy and compassion or his love or his emotionality. But he'll isolate something as a means of I'm protecting you or I'm trying to make sure that you're getting what you want, or I'm trying to make sure that this relationship is just functioning. So those are a few things. Yeah, I think that that dynamic of focusing on the other is a really convenient way to deflect from our own stuff, right?

0:18:20.80 → 0:18:48.34

To bypass our own work. It's like, oh, if I can make you happy, that's my job. But I think the corollary of that, the other side of that coin, is inevitably that not working. And then either me blaming myself or me blaming you, either you're impossible to please, fuck this, it's not worth it. Retreating, isolating or blaming yourself, going into shame and unworthiness and all of the things that go along with that.

0:18:48.39 → 0:19:30.97

But neither of those are really recipes for healthy relationships. And I think there's just a lot of woundedness going back and forth there. I think that what I see a lot I probably work with. The other side of the equation to you is mostly women and mostly more anxious women who are wanting to grip and control and fix and reach their partner and are probably more often again, not always, but I think there is more of a tendency and there's certainly a trope around it. Anxious woman, avoidant male and that dynamic of poking the bear, of trying to get past the wall.

0:19:31.14 → 0:20:13.77

And I think that what I often see is people who present as more avoidant have a really deep core wound around defectiveness and not being enough, not being successful. That sense of like, nothing I do is enough, and feeling a deep sense of shame and failure. But often that sits a few layers deeper and is covered by a lot of protective stuff. So I think that all of that is very much in alignment with what I see. I think one of the things that came out in that concept of self leadership is like efficacy and men needing to experience their own efficacy.

0:20:13.90 → 0:20:39.70

And again, I think it's true for everyone, but especially probably for men, this sense of purpose and efficacy. Can I experience examples of my own follow through and integrity and discipline? I think that that stuff is nothing short of medicinal for men and in relationships as well. I agree entirely. And I think it's generality, right?

0:20:39.72 → 0:21:19.16

It's a general statement. But I think generally a lot of women underestimate how important competency is for a man to feel like he has a place in your life, to feel like he is doing things right, to feel like he is contributing to you in some way, shape or form. To know and have it validated that he has an inherent value to you as his partner. And we could kind of go into why that is socially. I don't know if that would necessarily be helpful, but I think the one thing that I would say is that for most men.

0:21:20.33 → 0:22:02.58

We know that we have to build some kind of value in our life and that we have to build skills and we have to build character traits that are going to make us appealing as viable partners. And if we don't do that, or if we're riddled by shame or riddled by abuse from childhood that's getting in the way of that or stories that were not enough because we were bullied in school, then it's going to get in the way of our ability to feel like we are able to, in a meaningful way, contribute to your life. Because there is a kind of nourishment that I think most men find in that place.

0:22:05.03 → 0:22:56.12

I just wanted to add that in because I do think that it's oftentimes a very male specific thing, that it's like, I want to have a place in your life and I want to know that I'm contributing value and I want to be recognised for that value. And I want that value to sometimes not only come from me, but to have it be something sacred that's a part of our relationship and our dynamic. And because for a lot of men, they can't get that from anywhere else. A lot of men don't have society and friends and family members telling them, I really value what you bring to the table. I really value how hard you work in this area of your life to whatever it is to put groceries on the table or to drive our kids to soccer or to make sure that the house is always clean or in good order.

0:22:56.89 → 0:23:56.13

That's not really happening in a lot of other places. And so I think what I usually say to couples, regardless of the dynamic, is that appreciation is the currency of intimacy and that you can never underestimate how valuable appreciation truly is for the other person. And one of the things that I usually say to a couple is if you can discover the type and quality and consistency and the sort of specifics of what your partner wants to be valued for and appreciated for, that is a kind of gold that you will be bringing into your relationship. And if two people are willing to do that, to say, here's what I really love being appreciated for. We live on an acreage and it's like five acres and so we have a two year old, so there's diapers everywhere all the time, right?

0:23:56.25 → 0:24:17.34

It smells terrible. But our garbage is way at the end of the driveway, right? And so I have to either walk the garbage all the way down to the thing at the end of the driveway, which is a good, like, 15 minutes excursion, or I have to pile the garbage into the car and take the car to the end of the driveway. Now, my wife hates doing this. Guess what?

0:24:17.39 → 0:24:53.32

I don't enjoy doing it either, but it's something that I undertake. And so just a simple thing, just a simple example. My wife has just made it a point to thank me for doing those types of things because I'm contributing something to the relationship, making our life a little bit easier, taking care of something around the house, and I'm getting it done even though I know that neither of us want to do it. And so it's those types of things that are small and simple, but become the kind of foundational fabric that pulls a relationship together. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

0:24:53.37 → 0:25:31.28

And it's something that in my own life I had to really deliberately unlearn what was modelled to me in terms of I think there can be competitiveness in unhappy marriages. There can be this sense of like me appreciate you when you haven't done X, Y and Z thing and there's all this for growth, right? You're the scorekeeping. And almost this protectiveness or guarding of kindness and appreciation because it hasn't been earned, or there's all of these things outstanding. And if I were to acknowledge the positives, then all of these negatives might not get addressed or they might get overlooked.

0:25:31.34 → 0:26:18.15

And so I think the fear will often drive someone to just keep pointing out all of the things that aren't right, that aren't up to scratch, that still need work. And it's just so counterproductive. Because I think when someone feels like the example that I give, and again, is often in more of that anxious, avoidant dynamic. It can be like if you've asked your partner to do ten things and they do nine, of them. And your focus is on the one that they didn't do and the imperfect part of it, and taking that as evidence of something, of whatever story you're telling yourself about who they are or how much they care about you, or if you really cared about me, you would have done X, or you would have done it better or differently.

0:26:18.81 → 0:27:01.71

It's just like sometimes we need to step back from our own agenda, and particularly if we notice that part of ourselves that's resistant to showing appreciation, to voicing that, and going like, what am I gatekeeping here? And Why? Well, part of me is reluctant to be loving. What am I afraid would happen if I voiced my appreciation freely? I think the thing you'll hear a lot is like, I shouldn't have to thank my partner for doing basic things and I get where it's coming from and I think it's something we've got to get a little curious about because I don't know what it's in service of.

0:27:01.83 → 0:27:13.12

I hear that all the time. I shouldn't have to thank my partner for basic things. It's like, no, you just don't want to. And there's a big difference because you do have to, right? You do have to, you just don't want to.

0:27:13.22 → 0:27:53.78

And when you start to get clear on why it is that you don't want to, and what you're actually withholding from the relationship and what might be possible. I think in a lot of cases I shouldn't need to, which is, as I've said, is I don't want to. And it's usually I don't want to because then I might be recognising something that you're doing, right. I might be recognising what you are actually doing. And when I recognise that, it might actually override this unhelpful story that you never do enough or you're not doing what I want you to, or whatever it is, the story is that's being held by that individual.

0:27:54.23 → 0:28:38.98

And so, yeah, usually when I hear people say that, my response is, you do need to, and you probably need to, maybe more than anybody else, because there's a natural resistance and rejection of it. And I think I hesitate to go down this route, but I'm going to do it anyways. We'll just see where this goes. But I think in our modern culture, a lot of women have been sold this bill of goods of you shouldn't need a man and you should be everything for yourself. And that sort of becomes problematic in a relationship where you just don't have space for a man to even contribute to you.

0:28:39.99 → 0:29:18.27

And I get it to a certain degree. Like, my wife is a badass, and she's built a huge business, and she's wildly successful, and I love her. And I'm her biggest cheerleader, I'm her biggest fan, and I'm her biggest supporter. But she still does a great job of being able to say, here's where the way that you contribute to me is invaluable where I can't find that anywhere else. And to say something like that, or to acknowledge something like that, is to put ourselves in a position of vulnerability and it is to put ourselves into a position of admission of love, of appreciation.

0:29:18.61 → 0:29:58.98

And I think that oftentimes that's a very challenging place to be for anybody. And so I think there's sometimes an avoidance of that because it feels uncomfortable to be in this more soft space that's actually admitting, I enjoy leaning on you, I enjoy you taking care of these things for me. I remember my wife and I had a conversation in the beginning of our relationship where I was taking care of a few things in our relationship that other partners hadn't for her. And it was a very challenging thing. We had a couple of conversations where I was like, why won't you recognise me for this?

0:29:59.08 → 0:30:33.08

And she's like, I don't know, I hadn't really thought about it. And then, because she's very reflective and very wise, she came back and she said, you know, it's actually very uncomfortable for me to admit that I enjoy that and it's very uncomfortable for me to be in a position of feeling taken care of in the way that you take care of me. Because she had grown up, only child, Division One lacrosse player, first chair, violin in the orchestra. Top of her class, built her business. She's really crushed it.

0:30:34.89 → 0:31:24.02

But to be taken care of in the way that I was is to sort of be in this position that she had never been in before. And so I think that that's very challenging for some folks. So I know I kind of path, but no, I think it's a really insightful path, and I completely agree with you, and I really resonate with all of that challenge in your relationship. Sort of for myself, I think that learning to receive when you've been really, really good at doing it all for yourself, you've had your own competence, kind of nurtured, and that's been part of your modus operandi. It's like, oh, wait, if I can let down my guard and actually allow myself to be supported and held and received, that's an intensely vulnerable thing to do if it's not what you used to.

0:31:24.07 → 0:32:05.31

And for myself in my current relationship. That's been a very healing thing for me, I think by contrast to a previous relationship where I wasn't able to do that. I think part of it was definitely my stuff, but part of it was not trusting in the steadiness of my partner and not trusting in his dependability and his reliability and probably his integrity enough to kind of lay down the guard and go, okay, I can lean on you. So I think it's both, right? It's how much of it's my stuff, how much of it is you not being a safe person for me to really kind of relax into.

0:32:05.48 → 0:32:37.51

But I think that if you can find that dynamic, it's deeply nourishing on both sides. I think it really is. Yeah. I think we often, with the rise of the therapeutic industry in our modern culture, where everything has sort of become pathologized and therapeutic speak, has entered into mainstream culture in a way that is just unheard of before. I find that the majority of people are convinced that they know exactly what they want.

0:32:37.68 → 0:33:35.05

And to me, it removes the mystery of romance and love and intimacy, because the truth about a really good romantic intimacy and relationship is that it's going to evoke what you need, which oftentimes is not what you thought. But we have this kind of arrogance and omnipotence that we adopt that says, I know exactly what I need and I know exactly what I want. And there's no room to say maybe I actually don't know everything that I need and want in a relationship. And maybe I can leave some room for awe and wonder and surprise for somebody to show up and maybe be providing for me or contributing to me or loving me in a way that I didn't even know that I needed. But if we're so busy telling them, this is exactly how you should love me and this is exactly what I need all the time, there's just no room for that.

0:33:35.22 → 0:34:11.38

But that's kind of sometimes what I find the therapeutic space on Instagram and social media really selling. And I think that it's really unfortunate for the truth of intimacy, which is often wildly uncomfortable and unknown and mysterious and awe invoking and whimsical. And when we can allow for some of that, then we can get what we need in a way that we hadn't expected. And I know that there's caveats to that trauma and PTSD and abusive relationships. I know that there's trauma.

0:34:11.49 → 0:34:24.32

I know that there's caveats to what I'm saying. Sometimes we really do need to speak. I can hear people like, wow, what about abuse? What about that? Yes, I know all those things, and I agree.

0:34:24.71 → 0:34:58.63

Yes. Yeah, I agree. I think that it is it is the unfortunate byproduct of Instagram and social media and like, that we all lean on so much for this work, but there are constraints of the format and constraints of communicating things in short form that you miss the nuance and the mess. You talk about the mystery of relationships. I find so much people coming to me, and you just see the fear in the question, is it like, is it this or this?

0:34:58.67 → 0:35:40.02

Is it me or them? That's the problem. How do I know if and it's just like this really rigid, like, I need to know the answer so that I can figure out the solution, so that I can stop myself from getting hurt. And so I think we have to look at our relationship to control and trust, self trust and trust of the other, because I think we can only really allow ourselves to ride in that mystery and really flow with it to the extent that we trust ourselves to be with whatever arises and wherever it takes us. Because when we don't have that self trust, we need to have a plan for every possible scenario so that we're braced for it.

0:35:40.07 → 0:36:17.36

But I think that that can become a real self fulfilling prophecy, because when we're bracing for the pain or bracing for the hurt or the betrayal or the abandonment or the rejection, we lead with that. And we're so guarded from the outset, we're preparing, if I say this, they're going to say that, and then I'll say this, and lo and behold, that's the exact conversation we have. So I think that kind of going to our relationships with curiosity and openness. It is a portal to much greater, deeper intimacy. I agree entirely.

0:36:17.42 → 0:36:40.77

Well said. Something that I really liked in your book was talking about vulnerability. And you spoke about vulnerability as when women in particular say they want men to be more vulnerable, it's not just, I want you to be more emotional. It's like, I want to know that you're aware. I thought that was a really great distinction.

0:36:40.90 → 0:37:18.64

I remember seeing a clip of John Weiland a few years ago talking about awareness and how that was such an attractive trait for men to possess and for women to perceive in men, it's like, I'm self aware. I'm aware of you and what's going on with you, the impact of my behaviour on you. I'm kind of environmentally relationally aware. And I think that that's just so astute. I think that without most people wouldn't be able to put words to that, but I think if you said it to them, they'd be like, yes, that is what I'm looking for.

0:37:18.66 → 0:37:47.68

I'm looking to know that you are aware and that I can trust you, that you are in control of yourself, that you are able to self regulate, able to carry yourself. Because if you're not aware, then I feel like I have to be aware for you. And that scares me. Could you speak a little more about that? Yeah, I mean, in a very simple sense, a man who is unaware of what he's experiencing or a man who won't admit to what he's experiencing is a dangerous man.

0:37:47.81 → 0:38:17.03

Yeah, right. It's plain and simple and dangerous in the sense that for a woman that's hard to be around. When a woman is around a man who she can sense and kind of knows you're angry right now, and that man isn't willing to admit, yes, I'm angry, or yes, I'm feeling this way, that's scary, right? That's just plain and simple, right? I mean, I'm six two, my wife is five eight.

0:38:17.07 → 0:38:29.62

I'm 200 pounds. Right? She's not. And so just that natural dynamic. I mean, I can imagine being around a dude that's like six foot six and 300 pounds and I'm like, Are you angry?

0:38:29.65 → 0:38:31.36

And he's like, no, I'm fine.

0:38:33.81 → 0:39:01.62

I can tell that he's pissed. It's like, well, that doesn't feel safe, right? It just doesn't feel safe, plain and simple. If you just remove all the dynamics and make it very logical. And so I think we as men, often we hear this conversation about vulnerability and there's this huge push I think I wrote about in the book the Myth of Male Vulnerability, this notion that we as men are just inundated with these messages, you need to be more vulnerable.

0:39:01.68 → 0:39:33.77

And it doesn't even really seem to matter what the prognosis is or what the challenge or the problem is that a man is facing the solution. And the medicine that is delivered to him always seems to be you just need to be more vulnerable. And I think it's garbage. I think that there is a time and place for a man to be vulnerable, but I think that most men know that there is an inherent risk to them being vulnerable. If you are vulnerable in the wrong way with a relationship, that might end it.

0:39:33.86 → 0:40:02.91

And that's just true. And we as men know that because if I'm in the beginning of a relationship with a woman and I'm building rapport with her and something happens in my life and I break down about it and am completely dysregulated and sort of beside myself about it, and she's having to care for me. That can shift the dynamic of the relationship immediately. And men know that. So men, we kind of know that.

0:40:02.94 → 0:40:44.34

We don't know if we're going to get rejected or if we're going to have our experience shut down or if that's going to impact the intimacy within the relationship. So I think it's a very challenging thing for men to find the balance of. But what I do know is that oftentimes what women are actually saying is not that I just want you to open up and cry all the time, or I want you to tell me how sad and depressed you are. Or I want you to inundate me daily with how overwhelmed you are with work or how much you hate your job. What I actually want is some indication of that, you know, what's happening inside of you.

0:40:44.52 → 0:41:21.94

Because that shows me that you have a certain level of awareness. You feel more safe when you're able to do that. And you're in charge, not in control, but you're in charge of what's happening inside of you. So you're taking responsibility and ownership as a man over I feel a lot of anger, or I feel pressed lately, or I have a lot of anxiety coming up, or I really am struggling with whatever it is job, work, friends, mom, dad, et cetera. So that's I think the kind of vulnerability that a lot of men are being asked to do.

0:41:22.07 → 0:42:02.00

And I think that the more depth oriented emotional processing that seems to get talked about in modern culture is something that men need to practise amongst other men because it's not a natural for most guys. It's not like second nature, just being very open and vulnerable about how they're feeling about having been in a sexless marriage for two years. It doesn't feel natural for a lot of men to open up and say, here's how I've been struggling behind the scenes. And we can talk about, well, how do we change culture and how do we make it more natural? And all those types of things.

0:42:02.05 → 0:42:32.28

But that's a very complex dialogue. So I think the more direct thing speaking directly to men is when you're able to step into owning what your direct felt experience is. Meaning, what are you actually experiencing directly in the moment in your body? Heat, frustration, anger, confusion, anxiety, coldness, et cetera. Like, what's actually going on inside of you.

0:42:32.30 → 0:42:58.78

When you're able to identify that for yourself and communicate some of it to your partner, you are displaying the type of vulnerability that most women are asking for. Right? You're saying, I know how I feel right now. You're right. I am feeling angry, or, yeah, you know, I feel kind of ashamed that I forgot to do that, or I feel embarrassed about this thing that happened, and I don't need you to fix it for me.

0:42:58.80 → 0:43:22.63

I don't need you to solve it for me. I want you to know that that's what's going on. And that in itself, for most women is going to be like a big sigh. It's like, okay, you can recognise. And the bonus, the sort of icing on the cake is when a man is able to say, and I have the resources in my life to go and work through this or deal with this.

0:43:22.67 → 0:44:08.77

I have good men in my life that I can bring this problem to or this challenge to, to discuss, to feel through, to explore, et cetera. And it's not that we can't do that in our relationship, but again, the majority of men over index on their relationship to be that space where they bring their internal world. And for most men, it's a sign that there's a wound with the masculine, there's a wound with men that they don't trust men to bring their challenges, to bring their hardship, to bring their emotions, their hurt, their pain. It's why the first line in my book is a man's work begins in pain. It begins with your pain as a man and beginning to understand it.

0:44:08.94 → 0:44:26.88

So yeah, maybe I'll pause there. Yeah. When you say that for a lot of women, hearing that kind of like, I know what's going on for me and I've got this, here's how I'm feeling. I think this might be what that's about and I'm going to take care of it in this way. And it's just like and it is.

0:44:26.93 → 0:45:19.50

And I think that that goes back to this over functioning thing that a lot of women have developed to keep themselves protected or just because that's kind of how we've been socialised in recent times, to be able to do everything and take care of ourselves and take care of other people. But at the same time, something I see all the time and I relate to is like this deep and visceral fear of having to do that forever. And so it's both. It's like I can do it and that's like that's my default and that's where I'll go that's comfortable for me, to take responsibility for you and try and micromanage you and do the psychoanalysis for you and try and do your emotional processing for you and suggest what you might need. But at the same time, I'm terrified of having to do that because the thing that comes up is like, who's going to do that for me?

0:45:19.60 → 0:45:57.44

That's right. If if I'm always the supporter and the carer, then there is a part of me that's terrified that I'm going to be alone or kind of emotionally abandoned if and when it's my turn to need support. Or perhaps I'll just never let myself be in need of support because I don't trust in your ability to hold me there. So again, it's this thing of like, there's stuff on both sides there and it can be really painful or it can be really healing to step back. And I think for women, there is a level of needing to step back.

0:45:58.05 → 0:46:16.58

Something that I'd be interested in your take on is like, who goes first on that? Do you think it's just like dependent on the relationship? Does the man have to step up and prove himself trustworthy? Does the woman need to step back and give him the space to do that? Is there a better view there, or is it just going to depend on the relationship?

0:46:17.35 → 0:46:50.30

Yeah, I think a lot of it is relationship dependent, but I work predominantly with men and then sometimes with couples. And so my pathway is always through men. And so I always like to say, guys, you have to sort of take the step first because that's right. The notion that if I can signal to you that I know what's going on inside of me, I have that awareness. I have the tools and the resources to traverse that right.

0:46:50.35 → 0:47:34.79

My anger, my frustration, my shame, my disappointment, whatever it might be about in my life, then I'm sending a signal to my partner saying, I know how to do this for myself, and so I can also do it for you. And there's a really deep attraction to that. I think I look at a lot of the, again, the therapeutic content, the dating, coaching content that's out there on Instagram and social media, facebook and TikTok and that kind of stuff. And really, that's what a lot of it is advocating for, quote unquote, holding space. Well, how is a man to know how to hold space for his partner if he has no idea how to be with his own emotional intensity?

0:47:34.92 → 0:48:00.79

How is he supposed to do that? So there's all of this content that's out there trying to tell guys, here's how you hold space for your partner, here's how you understand what they're experiencing, here's how you move through conflict. And it's like, well, that guy probably has no clue in the first place. Not that it's all men, right? I'm not bashing in any way, shape or form, but that guy might not understand how to deal with his own emotional intensity.

0:48:01.21 → 0:48:42.93

And so if he doesn't know how to be with his nervous system in the first place and the charge that might happen when he's around somebody else's intensity, sadness, grief, anger, frustration, et cetera, then the moment that he steps into the arena of, okay, I'm going to hold some space for you. I want to hear what you have to say. I want to have this hard conversation or hear about what happened with your day. His nervous system is going to light up like a Christmas tree, and he's going to become dysregulated and maybe reactive and defensive or try and solve the problem. And so I think one of the greatest gifts that we as men can give the world is to understand how to regulate and ground ourselves.

0:48:43.51 → 0:49:24.53

And because the world in some ways it still is a dangerous place and life is very, very hard and so are intimate relationships counter to what Disney might have sold you. Right. It's very challenging. And so we as men, when we have done the work, to be grounded, to have a certain amount of self awareness, to be able to regulate our own internal state, that is something so wildly appealing to women or to anybody, because we all know how hard that is. Everybody knows how hard that is.

0:49:24.64 → 0:49:51.29

Right? To stay grounded, to be regulated, to be able to go into a conflict and stay solid and hear the other person, and to tune into your own internal state, it is incredibly difficult and it's why it is so attractive and appealing. And that's what I see a lot of the content advocating for the sort of subtext to it is like, I just want a man who is grounded and emotionally solid.

0:49:53.95 → 0:50:16.43

That's the beginning of the work. Yeah, totally. I think that's so spot on. It's like how could I ever feel safe with your emotions if my impulse, when my own arise is to make them go away as quickly as possible? Of course, if that's my baseline, then I'm going to try and fix or solve or react or defend against yours because I see those things as inherently threatening.

0:50:16.59 → 0:50:53.93

My radar is going like, oh, like anger or sadness or whatever else is not a safe thing to have in my environment, then I'm going to try and make it go away. And so I think you're right. It has to start with kind of recalibrating our own relationship to those things in order that we can be with them without automatically going to those protective mechanisms. That relationally. If you're on the receiving end of that, it just feels like a denial or that kind of emotional abandonment or you're not really seeing me.

0:50:54.13 → 0:51:12.10

Yeah, well, I think that both people have a role and a responsibility in it. And I think it's oftentimes what we do is we enter into this with those types of questions. I hear I get all those DMs all the time. Right? It's like, well, should he be doing this first or should I do this first?

0:51:14.07 → 0:51:57.97

I do think that both people have a responsibility. I think in some ways what men are often looking for from their female partners is an acknowledgment of when it is going right. That appreciation that I was talking about before, the acknowledgment of when a man has stayed grounded, has been able to hold space, has been able to have the tough conversation and that little amount of appreciation cannot be underestimated. I think that's part of it. But the other part is to give that man some space in order to get it wrong, in order to fail.

0:51:58.47 → 0:52:14.06

I usually tell men, you can't criticise or complain your way into more sex. And what I usually say to women is you can't criticise and complain your way to more emotional connection. It just doesn't work. Right. It shuts down the conversation.

0:52:14.17 → 0:52:37.11

And yet this is the tactic that so many men and so many women take in relationships, right? It's like, I want more sex and so I'm going to criticise you and complain about it. And for a lot of women, it's like, Well, I want more emotional connection, or maybe it's, I want more sex. Right. They can both apply to both genders, but we use criticism and complaints as a means of trying to get our needs met and just never works.

0:52:37.20 → 0:53:06.13

So the best thing we can do is create a little bit of space and reinforce what's working. Well, yeah, totally. I mean, I think to go back to kind of like a safety thing, if if this person's emotionally disconnected from me because anything else doesn't feel safe, then, like, telling them how wrong and bad they are is not going to be the thing. Like, that create the soil in which that safety and the connection is going to grow. It's just the complete opposite of what we need.

0:53:06.17 → 0:53:29.28

I always imagine, like a tortoise retracting into its shell and then just sort of like beating on the shell and saying, come out. It's not going to work. Right. It's the opposite. It's like, how can I contribute to your experience of safety in this relationship and trust that from there we'll grow in connection together rather than, how can I force you to show up the way I want you to so that I feel better about things?

0:53:30.93 → 0:53:54.37

It takes a lot of kind of emotional maturity and personal responsibility to step back from our own agenda and look at the relationship more holistically. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's easy for us to love the parts of our partner that we already love. And it's hard for us to love the parts of them that we wish were different and learning.

0:53:54.57 → 0:54:35.32

I had a very wise mentor. I've had the grace and the fortune of having a number of them, but one of them said, acceptance without love is hollow. And so oftentimes we see these hard parts of our partner, maybe they're a little bit more reactive than we'd like them to be or they shut down easily, or whatever the case may be. And at first we buck against it and we might criticise them and try and get them to change and then we move into a place of, well, maybe I'll just accept this, but that acceptance is holding hands with, I don't like it, I'll tolerate this shit. I bet it judgement.

0:54:35.48 → 0:54:58.06

That's right. It's not hand in hand with, I accept this because I'm learning to love your flaws and fallibility and what a gift that is to another human being to say, I see that you're struggling with this. I see that you're working on this. I see that this is a challenge, and I love this part of you anyway.

0:55:00.83 → 0:55:20.78

And sometimes we need that. Sometimes we as human beings, we really do need that. And we need somebody to believe in us, sometimes more than we believe in ourselves. And we need somebody to love the hard parts of us that we haven't figured out how to love yet. I mean, that is just the truth of human nature, fortunately, or unfortunately.

0:55:20.92 → 0:56:18.52

And I think one of the things that my wife and I have always tried to do, whether it's in our work with couples or in our work in our own relationship, is to bring ourselves closer to being able to love those parts of one another that we are struggling with, that we can see that the other person is having a hard time accepting. Now, of course, there's boundaries within that, and that happens within reason, and it's not letting the other person get away with all kinds of nonsense that is diminishing their relationship. But it's really looking at, how can I love this part of my partner that I can see that they're struggling with and that I'm struggling to accept. And when we can make that part of our mission of love, part of our mission of intimacy, part of our mission of a relationship, things will naturally start to change. Because maybe I'll just share a quick example.

0:56:19.29 → 0:56:52.16

I remember my wife tells this story, and so I'm telling it because she's told it where we were in a conflict in the beginning of our relationship. We'd been dating for like, seven or eight months, and I don't remember what the conflict was about or what we were actually in an argument about, but she was really coming at me, and she was trying to prove a point, and she wasn't letting it go. And she was fiery and fierce, and she was really coming at me. And I kept saying to her, I got it. I understand.

0:56:52.77 → 0:57:00.82

I got it. You're right. And she just kept coming at me. And finally I just said, Can I pause you for a moment? And she said, Fine.

0:57:01.59 → 0:57:20.62

And I said, Are you hearing that? I've got what you're saying? And she's like, yes. I'm like, oh, okay. Well, can I just tell you that even though you're really pissed off right now that I still love you, and even though you're trying to battle me right now, that I still love you and that I do hear what you're saying?

0:57:21.15 → 0:58:00.85

And she just sat there for a moment. I could see it was like a good hit to the heart in a way. And she just started crying, and she was, like, disarming, and she was just like the way that she described it after was I felt like I was being so unlovable. I could hear myself not letting it go, trying to prove the point, getting in your face, almost attacking you verbally and coming at you and all this stuff, and you just held your ground and reminded me that I was loved. And in the moment where I felt like I was unlovable, you loved me anyways.

0:58:00.93 → 0:58:21.89

And she's done that for me dozens of times, countless times. And that's the practise. Can I love you in the moments when you're being unlovable and again, not abusive, right? Not trauma inducing or anything like that, but just the everyday shit that we all fall into. Can I love you in those moments?

0:58:21.94 → 0:58:45.47

And that's the game. And if you can play that game in a relationship, you'll find a depth within the relationship that is unparamount. It really is. It's just not found anywhere else because you'll be on an adventure with somebody who's willing to love the hard parts of you alongside your journey and trying to figure that shit out. So well said.

0:58:45.67 → 0:58:58.30

Just to wrap up quickly, what do you think makes a great relationship? As I say, just to wrap up quickly, we could probably do a whole hour on that question, but what would be the headline for you on what makes a great relationship?

0:59:01.23 → 0:59:30.27

I think it's a lot of what I said before, but what I usually again, I'm going to use the lens that I usually say to men, but I think it's applicable to everybody, which is find someone that you can do conflict with. And it sounds counterintuitive, but it's the thing that most people don't look for, right? Most of us are looking for the great love and the amazing sex that blows our mind that we're thinking about for days after. And great, look for all those things. Right.

0:59:30.31 → 0:59:47.28

Have all whatever ingredients you're looking for in a great relationship. Look for those things. Don't let go of them, but see if you can find somebody that you're willing to go through conflict with. I said this to my wife last night. Literally last night, I hugged her.

0:59:47.30 → 1:00:07.76

And I said, because we've been talking about moving and it's a very challenging conversation, there's a lot of pieces involved. And I hugged her and I kissed her on the cheek. And I said, there is no one else in life that I would rather go through hardship with. And I think that that's the essence of it that we often miss out on. Because fucking life is hard, man.

1:00:09.57 → 1:00:41.19

Raising kids, losing parents, your own health, finances, the economy, whatever the hell is happening in North America right now, it's a shit show. It's hard. And so if you can find somebody that you oftentimes, maybe not always, but you can oftentimes enjoy going through that hardship with, I think that that's just such a gift. Yeah, couldn't agree more. I often say to people, it's like, find a person with whom the hard stuff brings you together rather than divides you.

1:00:41.23 → 1:00:56.17

I think that is really like a hallmark of a great relationship. It's like when. Life gets hard, as it inevitably will? Do we band together and make each other stronger? Or does that divide us and turn us into enemies or competitors?

1:00:56.77 → 1:01:09.22

I think that's very telling. Yeah. And can both people commit to that? I think that's the other caveat, right? That both people actually need to commit to that way of being within the relationship and that value within the relationship.

1:01:09.99 → 1:01:27.14

Totally. Connor, thank you so much. This has been such a beautiful conversation. I really think that for a lot of people, it's probably stuff that they've not really delved into before this whole topic of men's work and men's challenges. And I think it's a really important conversation now more than ever.

1:01:27.19 → 1:01:46.09

So thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationship, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com.

1:01:46.21 → 1:01:55.84

And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.

Why we want to believe in "the one"

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

In today's episode, I'm unpacking the concept of "the one". When it comes to relationships, many of us have absorbed the conditioning that there is some perfect person out there for us - and our only job is to find them. This can lead us down a rabbit hole of doubt, comparison and low self-worth.

WHAT WE’LL COVER:

• why the idea of "the one" is unrealistic

• how it can lead us to doubt our perfectly normal, healthy relationship

• the unexpected reason why we might seek out "the one"

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.41 → 0:00:34.16

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge, and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's episode is a short and sweet one.

0:00:34.26 → 0:01:02.35

I'm going to be sharing some reflections and hard truths about finding the one. So I think this idea of the one is something that we've all had drilled into us by fairy tales and Hollywood and everything else. This idea that we've just got to keep looking. And then eventually we're going to find this perfect person who sweeps us off our feet, who thinks that we are the greatest thing to ever grace this earth. And we'll fall desperately in love.

0:01:02.50 → 0:01:34.20

And we'll get married and live happily ever after. And we'll live out our days in perfect harmony. And as lovely as that picture and that image is, I hate to be the one to break it to you that it is unrealistic and sets us up for a lot of doubt and a lot of pain and a lot of suffering. So I'm going to be sharing some reframes on that. And in addition to reframes and hard truths, maybe asking some pointed questions around what we get out of believing that there is this one out there for us.

0:01:34.25 → 0:02:03.52

So that's what I'm going to be chatting about today. As I said, it's a short and sweet episode, so hopefully that will give you lots to think about in a nice, compact format before I dive into that. Just sharing the featured review for today, which is this is the best podcast I've ever found. I'm in an anxious, avoidant relationship and by me and my partner listening to your podcast and discussing based on them, it helps us learn and understand ourselves and each other more. Since we started doing that, we navigate our relationship with more ease and empathy than before.

0:02:03.65 → 0:02:24.61

Thank you, Stephanie, for making this world a better place. Thank you so much for that lovely review. That brings a big smile to my face and it's very, very heartwarming to know that you've noticed those impacts and, as you say, greater empathy and understanding from the conversations that have flowed from listening together. I really love to hear that. So thank you for sharing.

0:02:24.74 → 0:03:17.58

If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my Master classes as a way to say thank you for taking the time. Okay, let's talk about finding the one. So, as I said, I think that we've all been really heavily socialised into believing in this love story, this perfect romance of someone coming to sweep us off our feet, to rescue us from our problems, to save us from our lives. And that there is this perfect person out there that ticks every single box of ours that is desperately attractive and that we have this beautiful chemistry with, but we also have great love and connection and intimacy and we're never going to have any problems with them. And it's all just happy days, happily ever after.

0:03:19.15 → 0:04:06.14

Unfortunately, I think that this sets us up for really unrealistic expectations. Now, I hate to be the one to point this out, but it is so clearly unrealistic that there is a person in this world, one single person, who is perfect for you. The reality is there are probably hundreds of thousands of people in this world that you could happily build a life with. Now, some people might not like that, other people might feel really comforted by it, but I think that there's truth in it. And what that speaks to is the fact that with any partner, we are making a choice and we are making compromises and we are prioritising certain things and probably letting go of other things.

0:04:06.51 → 0:04:44.56

One door opening means closing another door. We can't have everything and we can't be everything to everyone and we can't have everything in one person. So rather than seeing that as a problem, I think we just have to recognise it for what it is and make our peace with it. I think the problem is because we have this conditioning around the fact that there's this perfect person for us and a perfect relationship, and that if we just find that, then we will be saved from all our problems and we won't have to struggle in relationships. I think it leads us to be really doubtful and flighty when issues arise.

0:04:44.62 → 0:05:24.99

So if we've got a good relationship with someone that we love and care for, but it's not perfect, maybe we fight sometimes or maybe we annoy each other or maybe I don't find them attractive. 100% of the time, my brain that has been trained to think that there is this perfect person might start planting these seeds of doubt, these seeds of what if there's some better person out there? What if that kind of grass is greener mentality? And here's the thing, there's always someone better, there's always more, there's always different and we can always keep trading in and trading up. But the bad news is we trade in for someone else.

0:05:25.03 → 0:05:45.54

And guess what? There's someone better than them too, if only you go out and find them. So I think that that's a hamster wheel that is really hard to get off once you're on it. And I really wouldn't encourage you to approach your partner and your relationships with this mentality of what if this isn't the absolute best and perfect partner and person? For me, that's not healthy.

0:05:45.60 → 0:06:25.51

And it really prevents you from showing up to your relationship that you're in with an open heart and in a loving way. So I think that rather than expecting perfection or seeking perfection? Can we create strong, healthy, loving, fun, exciting connection with the person that is in front of us and really remind ourselves that we are choosing and have chosen, and we'll continue to choose them rather than expecting there to. Be this elusive, the one who is going to require no effort and with whom we won't have to face all of our shit in relationship. Because wherever you go, there you are.

0:06:25.58 → 0:07:00.27

All of your stuff is coming with you. Okay? So the other piece of this conversation that I actually think is more interesting is I think that most of us can can realise and recognise that the idea of the One is probably unrealistic. But something that came to me as I was thinking about this episode was maybe we want to believe in the idea of the one there being this one for us because we want to believe that we are the one for someone else. So maybe it's not even so much about wanting to find the perfect partner but maybe it's wanting to believe that someone will see us as perfect.

0:07:00.47 → 0:07:57.09

Maybe it's wanting to believe that someone, we just have to find them, will see us and bow down at our feet and put us on a pedestal and think that we are just the most spectacular thing to ever grace this earth and we'll worship the ground that we walk on. And maybe that very unworthy, insecure part of us can't handle the idea that the person we're in relationship with could similarly be compromising in some respects by being with us. That they could see us as imperfect, that they could see us as flawed, that they could find us irritating from time to time and that they could be actively choosing us in the way that we are actively choosing them. We want to believe that we are indispensable to someone, that someone couldn't live without us, that we are their everything. And so we hold on to this idea of the one more so because we want to be that to someone else.

0:07:57.24 → 0:09:06.18

And I think that if that's resonating for you, if you're nodding along, if dots are being connected in your brain as you're hearing me talk, maybe that's coming from an insecure place, a place that is afraid that we're not enough as we are, the imperfect wholeness of us. And so we want to believe that there's someone out there who doesn't see us in that way, who doesn't see us as imperfect, someone who sees us as perfect as the one for them. And so if that's bringing things up for you, this idea that your partner could be, quote unquote, settling by being with you and I don't mean that in a negative way if you've heard me speak about settling before, I actually think it's just terrible advice, this idea of never settle. I think that we're all settling in some ways because as I've said, no one's perfect. It's really about choosing the person that you want to ebb and flow with through this life, who can be your companion, who you feel loved and cared for and respected by, and who you are willing to ride through the storms with, rather than seeking out

0:09:06.20 → 0:09:12.01

this perfect person with whom you will experience eternal blue skies and calm seas.

0:09:12.51 → 0:09:54.95

That's been a bit of a rambly episode with various musings on the idea of the one, but I hope it's given you something to reflect on and think about this question of what is it about the idea of there being a person out there for me who is perfect, who I don't have to struggle with in any way, who allows me to bypass the messy, raw humanness of relationships. And what is it about the idea of being the one for someone else that is attractive to me? And what does that protect me from? Or what vulnerability does that allow me to bypass by holding onto this idea that I am the one for someone else? If you've enjoyed this episode, as always, super grateful.

0:09:55.03 → 0:10:10.00

If you can leave a rating or a review on Spotify, you can also leave a little question or a comment underneath the episode itself. Otherwise, I look forward to seeing you again next week, and I hope you have a beautiful rest of your day. Thanks, guys.

0:10:12.37 → 0:10:34.42

Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here, and I hope to see you again soon.

5 Tips for Loving Someone Well

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

In today's episode, I'm sharing 5 tips on how to love someone well. So often, we think we are being loving towards someone - when really, we are pursuing our own agenda of loving them with strings attached.

We love in order to get something in return, and then feel secretly resentful when things don't go our way. So instead, I'm sharing how to love someone in a way that feels pure and open-hearted.

WHAT WE’LL COVER:

• the importance of gratitude

• voicing appreciation and recognition of someone's contribution

• how to accept someone rather than control or change them

• taking responsibility for your own happiness

• staying curious about your partner's inner world

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.41 → 0:00:44.85

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm going to be talking about how to love someone well, sharing five tips for you to be more loving and open hearted in your relationships.

0:00:44.90 → 0:01:49.74

And I think that this one, while primarily geared towards romantic relationships, as I reflect in this moment, as I'm saying, and I think that most of what I'm going to share could equally apply to other relationships. Really focusing on how can I love in a way that is pure and open hearted rather than think what some of us do without even realising it, is we love with conditions and strings attached. We love to try and get something in return. We love in a way that is inherently self protective or self interested, particularly if we have a lot of fear around love and relationships. And while that's not our fault, and that is why doing this work is so important, because oftentimes we don't even know that we're doing it, I think it is our responsibility, and it's certainly in our best interest and in the interests of having really beautiful, loving, healthy relationships to reflect on how we're loving people and how we could love people better.

0:01:49.87 → 0:02:18.64

So that's what we're going to be talking about today. Before I dive into that, just a couple of quick announcements. A reminder again, I know I've mentioned it a few times recently, but I am accepting applications for Homecoming, which is my intimate six month small group mastermind programme. We meet every week on Zoom for 90 minutes and we explore everything under the sun that you could imagine. This is the most intimate way to work with me.

0:02:18.74 → 0:03:02.16

So if you've ever wondered what it would be like to work directly with me and you are on a journey of growth and transformation, and you are being called to embark upon that journey with a little more support. And community, then Homecoming is a really beautiful place for you and I would love to receive your application, which you can find via the link in the Show Notes. And all the information is on my website, which again, is linked in the Show Notes. Second quick announcement before we dive into today's conversation is just to share the featured review. This was quite a long one, so I've trimmed it down a little, but it said I was introduced to this show back at the beginning of February as a suggested interest under relationships and attachment styles.

0:03:02.22 → 0:03:23.45

I honestly wish I'd found it sooner. Her short to the point shows really helped me identify what I was doing wrong and how I can fix the problem. Just by working with my nervous system and learning how to communicate my needs and wants without the push and pull that I'm used to. I'm signing up for her Higher Love course very soon because I'm ready to make the change in love myself for my next relationship. Thank you, Steph, for changing my world.

0:03:23.57 → 0:03:58.24

Please keep it real and I'll be a listener for life. Thank you so much for that lovely review and I'm so pleased that you found some solace in the show and I hope to see you inside my Higher Love course, which, for anyone listening who doesn't know, is my breakup course. So thank you for that review. And if that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my Master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around how to love someone well.

0:03:58.42 → 0:04:36.79

And as I said, I'm going to be sharing five tips for this. Okay? So the first tip is remind yourself every day what you love about them. So I think that for all of us, it's easy to become trained to spot the negatives, to always be focused on what could be improved, on what could be better, on where things are feeling a little out of sync, where we've gotten lazy, where we've gotten complacent, where our needs are not being met. Maybe focusing on the ways in which our partner annoys us.

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I think because those things tend to stir up big emotions, things like anger and frustration and resentment and irritation. Those emotions tend to take up a lot of real estate inside us. And so it's easy to tip the scales in favour of always feeling that way or always focusing on what's wrong, what's missing, what is lacking. And against that backdrop, we can pretty easily lose sight of what we love about this person that we're in relationship with. We can see the negative side, the underbelly side of all of the traits that we initially loved about them.

0:05:17.54 → 0:06:03.87

I've spoken about this on the show before, but it's quite remarkable how quickly we are to see an aspect of our partner that we once loved and were drawn to as a negative. An example might be that you are drawn to your partner's charisma and Vivaciousness in the beginning, and then a year or two or more down the track, you find that irritating and you wish that they would sit down and be quiet. You wish that they could be more relaxed and easygoing. Or you might be really drawn to the fact that your partner is disciplined and structured, but then you might find it irritating that they're not more spontaneous or that they seem uptight. Right?

0:06:04.02 → 0:06:46.01

We take these things that we once loved and that we probably still do love, but we focus on the aspects of it that feel imperfect. So as much as it's easy to do that. And I think it's somewhat natural to spot imperfections, particularly again if we do tend more towards insecure attachment patterns at either end of the spectrum. I don't think it does very much to support the health of our relationships and it doesn't really feel good either. I think that there is so much to support the importance of gratitude and reminding ourselves daily what we are grateful for in our partner and what we love about them.

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I think that that is a really powerful practise not only for upgrading our own energy, but certainly in loving our partner better. So remind yourself every day what you love about them and train yourself to see that rather than to see all of the things that are wrong or imperfect or need work. Okay, the next one, which is in a similar vein, is make sure that you give appreciation and admiration compliments freely. Okay? So while the first one is focused more on for your own sake, remind yourself why you love this person and why you've chosen them.

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This next one is really make sure that you voice those things. Create a climate of gratitude and appreciation as between you. I think that sometimes when we get into a bit of a funky place in our relationship and it can either be because there's tension or it can be just a complacency thing, we get a little bit lazy about being loving actively towards our partner. But we can stop doing this, we can stop thanking them for doing things, we can stop appreciating things, we can stop expressing gratitude. And sometimes, as I said, that's an oversight and other times it's withholding.

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Sometimes we feel like we shouldn't have to avoid appreciation for things that are everyday tasks. If your partner does some sort of active service around the house that you consider to be just a basic part of living in a household, there's that whole thing of why should I have to praise them for doing basic jobs? And I think that we've just got to really ask ourselves what we're trying to win there by holding onto that mentality, by withholding appreciation from someone and whether that's creating a climate that we really want to live in in our relationships. I think that when we notice ourselves in that place of point scoring or competitiveness, it's just not nice, it's not loving, it's not open hearted, and it's actually not going to get us what we want or need. Oftentimes in doing that, we are trying to protect ourselves and we're trying to ironically, probably get more appreciation for the things that we contribute that we don't feel seen and valued for.

0:09:10.59 → 0:09:43.25

But creating this culture of hostility or withholding in your relationship is not the way to get your own needs met in that regard. And I think that again, it goes back to what I said in the introduction. We're not giving compliments to receive compliments. We're not giving appreciation to receive appreciation. Because if we're doing that, we are manipulating as much as we might not want to see it that way, but if you are only giving to receive, then you are not truly giving from a generous and open hearted place.

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And I think that that's an important thing to remind ourselves. It costs us nothing to be open hearted and loving and voice appreciation for someone. And it costs us a lot to do the converse, which is to cultivate a climate and culture of bitterness and resentment and point scoring in our relationship that is not fertile soil for love to grow. So reflect if you do find yourself going to that pattern of why should I have to? I don't know what that is really accomplishing for you.

0:10:15.57 → 0:10:55.93

And it's a good one to sit with and ask yourself is this how I want to be in relationship? And is this really getting me any closer to the kind of loving relationship that I so deeply desire? Okay, the next tip for loving someone well is don't make them responsible for your happiness and your fulfilment, okay? Because when you do, whether you do this consciously or not, you will end up blaming them every time you aren't happy or fulfilled, whenever you feel down or whenever you feel anxious or like all of your needs aren't being met or life isn't exactly as you thought it would be. It's easy to blame them.

0:10:55.97 → 0:11:56.38

It's easy to deflect and shirk responsibility for the way that we're showing up in our lives when we have tacitly made our partner responsible for our happiness. So it's so important in loving someone well. And I realise it might not seem like this is an act of love towards them, but one of the most loving things you can do in a relationship is to take responsibility for your own joy and fill your own cup and then enjoy the way that you're able to share in the overflow together. So when you make that your primary responsibility to create happiness and joy and pleasure and love, then you're able to invite them into that without relying on them or only experiencing happiness and fulfilment via them, which is a lot of pressure on them. And ultimately it's pressure on them to do something which they can't do because your happiness is not within their control.

0:11:56.51 → 0:12:39.42

So it's kind of an illusion that you can both get stuck in and you can end up blaming them and they can end up feeling like a failure for not doing something that they were never able to do. So I think that the more we can be self responsible insofar as our happiness is concerned and certainly not fall into these patterns of I would do X-Y-Z thing if it weren't for them stopping me. Just fact cheque that for yourself. Because that can be a really good protective story that we can tell ourselves that someone else is stopping us from living the life that we want or someone else is preventing us from having the experiences or feelings or just being the way we would like to be in the world. Okay?

0:12:39.47 → 0:13:15.51

So just cheque on those stories because they're very often untrue and they're almost always quite disempowering. So don't make them responsible for your happiness. And I should say just as a disclaimer there I'm by no means saying that you can't expect a partner to meet needs, that you can't expect a partner to contribute to your happiness. But there is a big difference between contributing to happiness and enhancing happiness and them being the sole source of happiness and that being their responsibility to make you happy. The latter is unrealistic and unhealthy.

0:13:15.67 → 0:13:41.61

The former is what we're aiming for but the former does require that you are first and foremost taking that on as your responsibility and your duty to yourself. Okay? So the next tip I want to offer you is notice where you try to control and change them even if it's so subtle. Notice where you do not accept them for who and how they are. Okay?

0:13:41.70 → 0:14:29.37

One of the most beautiful gifts, one of the most pure acts of love that you can give to someone is to accept them the way they are. Now, if you are more anxious in your attachment then you might really struggle with this because as much as you probably attach to someone very intensely and you hold on to them for dear life and it's not like you are criticising them with a view to ending the relationship and leaving them. You criticise them with a view to moulding them into some version of themselves that would make you feel more comfortable and that is not loving. Okay? It's really really self serving.

0:14:29.42 → 0:15:02.41

And I don't say that in a judgmental way because god knows I've been guilty of this. But it is something that we have to watch in ourselves, this tendency to want to change someone, to think that we know better than they do, to think that our way is superior to their way, to think that if only they change X-Y-Z thing, then our relationship would be good, and then we'd be happy together. Then we'd be fulfilled. Then we'd be satisfied again. This is a hamster wheel that's really hard to get off once we're on it.

0:15:02.53 → 0:15:43.19

So notice can I just accept my partner as they are today? And if the answer is no, you're not able to accept them. If you only love them with strings attached or with conditions or with control or you only love some hypothetical potential version of them that you've conjured up. In your mind and that you are squirrelling away at to try and mould them into, then query what it is that you're doing in relationship with them because it doesn't sound like love. So if you want to love someone well try accepting them as they are.

0:15:43.23 → 0:16:15.57

And try trusting that accepting someone as they are and loving them fully is so much more likely to inspire positive changes and shifts and transformation, but that you may need to release the grip and let go of the reins on what that looks like and how that happens. Because trying to turn someone into who we want them to be is selfish. It's not loving. That's a hard truth, but I think it's an important one to hear. And as I said, no judgement when I say that, because I have absolutely been guilty of it.

0:16:15.64 → 0:17:03.42

The last tip that I want to give you for loving someone well is remain endlessly curious about who they are today and who they are becoming. It's so easy to get complacent and to think that we know everything there is to know about our partner. But the truth is, you probably haven't even scratched the surface because we are all so brilliantly, messy and complex. There was a conversation in Homecoming, My Mastermind yesterday, which was so beautiful, and it was that one of the women had finally understood what it felt like to view her partner as a whole person, as a whole, complete person that wasn't about her. And I think that that might sound funny, but reflect on it.

0:17:03.52 → 0:17:27.96

How often do you see your partner as their own person? In the same way that you see yourself, in the same way that you know yourself to have a million different thoughts every day and fears and insecurities and dreams and hopes? Your partner has all of that too. And there's a good chance that you might know some of it, but you probably don't know all of it. So try to remain curious about them.

0:17:28.09 → 0:18:13.68

Try to remain curious in getting to know them a layer deeper, in finding things out about them, in learning from them, because they have so much to teach you that you probably haven't even scratched the surface of yet. We are all forever unfolding and growing and changing. So even if you've been together for a very long time, the person that you're in relationship with today is not the same person that you are in relationship with a year ago or five years ago or ten years ago. So can you be curious about who they are today and who they might become tomorrow or a year from now? Think that we can get a little bit cocky and think that we've read the book cover to cover, but it's good to remind ourselves that the book is still being written.

0:18:13.79 → 0:18:48.02

So it's nice to remain interested in the mystery of who our partner is, rather than assuming that there's nothing left to learn. And I think that that really does help, not only with loving someone, but with keeping that excitement in your relationship, with keeping connection and spark and aliveness. Because there is always this new growth. If we are courageous enough to look for it. Okay, so that was five tips for loving someone.

0:18:48.07 → 0:19:06.93

Well, to quickly recap, that was remind yourself every day what you love about your partner. Give your appreciation and your admiration freely. Don't point score, don't withhold. Don't play tit for tat on compliments or words of affirmation. Nothing good comes of that.

0:19:07.10 → 0:19:41.65

Don't make them responsible for your happiness and fulfilment. Make that your commitment to yourself and then enjoy the spoils of it with your partner. Notice where you try to control and change them and see if instead you could accept them fully and trust that good things will flow from that place of acceptance and remain endlessly curious about who they are today and who they are becoming. If you've enjoyed this episode, as always, I'm so grateful for those of you who leave ratings and reviews. We've got almost 2005 star reviews on Spotify, which is pretty amazing.

0:19:41.85 → 0:19:58.38

You can also leave a comment on Spotify under the episode. There's a little Q and A box, so you can leave a specific episode comment if you feel called to when you're listening on Spotify. Otherwise, thank you so much for joining me, guys. As always, I will see you next time. Take care.

0:19:59.55 → 0:20:22.08

Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.

"Is he avoidant or just not that into me?"

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

In today's episode, I'm answering the question of "How do I know if someone is avoidant or just not that interested in me?" This is a question I get A LOT - and the answer might surprise you.  

I'm going to share a common misconception about avoidant attachment in early dating, as well as some hard truths about why we seek out people whose behaviour leaves us questioning whether they're interested or not.

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.41 → 0:00:43.49

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge, and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I am answering one of the most frequently asked questions that I get, which is how do I know if someone is avoidant or just not that into me?

0:00:43.66 → 0:01:19.49

So I know that a lot of you listening will relate to this question purely by virtue of how often I get asked. It really is something that I'm hearing all the time from people. How can I figure out, particularly in early dating, whether the way someone's behaving towards me, which might feel sort of unclear or ambiguous or maybe not super interested? Do I put that down to the fact that they're not interested? Or is there something more different at play here that might be their attachment patterns, their avoidant attachment style?

0:01:19.83 → 0:01:41.43

How can I tell the difference and what do I do about it? So that's what I'm going to be talking through today. Before I dive into that, just want to share the featured review for today, which is this is the only podcast I wait for new episodes to be released every week. It's just that good. Even when I don't think the episode is going to be related to me, I find a new way to apply it to my life and be able to better understand the people around me.

0:01:41.47 → 0:02:00.41

I recently started Stephanie's Anxious Attachment course, and it has flipped the way I experience relationships. I can't thank Stephanie enough for this magical gift of a podcast that came into my life just when I needed it. Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I'm so glad that you've been loving the podcast and healing anxious attachment. That is all very lovely feedback.

0:02:00.46 → 0:02:47.69

So thank you so much for sharing. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierig.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's talk about whether they're avoidant or just not into you. This big question that I always get before I answer it, and I won't be answering it in any sort of yes or no way, obviously, but I do just want to give the caveat and emphasise that there are a million and one different answers to this question depending on context and all of those things. So please don't take what I'm going to say as being true for your situation, but rather as something to reflect upon and to apply to your situation to the extent that maybe it feels insightful.

0:02:47.74 → 0:03:19.35

But if it doesn't, then leave it. There's no need to panic and draw some sort of conclusion about someone else's behaviour based on what I'm about to share. I am just sharing observations and reflections from my experience and what I know to be true. So with all of that out of the way, with all of the disclaimers out of the way, I think that when we ask this question of is someone avoidant or just not interested in me? We are perhaps misunderstanding how avoidant attachment shows up.

0:03:19.47 → 0:04:06.64

A lot of the time, in my experience, dating avoidant people and working with avoidant people and working with many, many anxious people who date avoidant people. Fair sample size. In early dating, most avoidant people are not in their avoidant mode, meaning they haven't been triggered yet. So their strategies of withdrawing or going hot and cold, those sorts of things probably haven't been activated yet, right? That tends to come into play a little bit later when things become a bit more serious, when they start to feel pressure, when they start to feel like there's a bit more reliance on them or dependability or they're expected to do things or all of that stuff that we know can feel overwhelming for an avoidant leaning person when their freedom starts to feel like it's being impinged upon in some way.

0:04:06.67 → 0:05:07.64

But usually it's not at the very early stages of dating and I do tend to find that the people asking this question of how do I know if someone's avoidant or just not interested in me? Are usually asking that at a pretty early stage of dating, right? So I think that if you've been on one or two dates with someone, or you've just been messaging them a lot on an app and their behaviour is such that you're questioning whether they're interested in you and you're going, oh, is it just because they're avoidant because they're being really indifferent and they're not really messaging me, they're not putting in any effort, they're whatever, fill in the blanks. I think in many cases I think a lot of the time when we find ourselves asking that are they avoidant or just not interested in me?

0:05:07.74 → 0:05:28.22

At the very early stages of dating? Perhaps we're looking for an explanation that is better preferable than the thing that we're afraid to hear, which is that they just might not be interested in us. I should also say these things aren't mutually exclusive. Someone could be avoidant and not interested in you. So I think when we're trying to go, oh, is it this or this?

0:05:28.37 → 0:06:05.67

And how do I know whether it's one or the other? We have to recognise that there's a Venn diagram and there could be both, right? That's a bit of a side note. So the first kind of key piece here is that in my experience in early dating, avoidant people tend to show interest in people that they are interested in most of the time. Of course, not always exceptions, of course, but avoidant attachment doesn't usually manifest as being really coy or disinterested or indifferent towards people that you are actively pursuing and actively really interested in.

0:06:05.76 → 0:07:04.26

The avoidant stuff tends to come a little bit later when the relationship feels like it's becoming exclusive or there's other pressure or seriousness involved in a way that then activates some of those attachment fears and their accompanying strategies. The second key piece, and this is more important by a long shot, if you are asking yourself this question of are they avoidant or just not interested in me? And this is the question of does it matter and what part of you wants to go on that expedition of finding out the answer so that you can solve it right? If someone's behaviour towards you is so confusing and inconsistent and indifferent and whatever else that you are already straight out of the gate asking these questions are they even interested in me? Or is there some sort of label I can put on them that makes this behaviour make sense?

0:07:05.03 → 0:07:39.75

Does it really matter what the answer is? Do you want to persist in pursuing that connection when you're feeling like this? And to be very clear, this is not about demonising avoidant attachment and avoidantly attached people. If you're familiar with my work, you know that's not my philosophy at all, but a big part of my philosophy is taking responsibility for our part. And what I see all too often is anxious people going through a world of pain because they persist with people who the signs were there from the beginning.

0:07:39.80 → 0:08:24.92

It's not even a sign, it's just plain to see oh, I was wondering whether it was because you're avoidant or you didn't even like me and rather than just going oh well, if I'm asking that question, that's probably all I need to know. I stick around and I try and be more of this or less of that, or try different strategies and techniques and ways to get your attention and ways to make you happy and make you show up and make you interested in me. Why do we see someone's indifference towards us or inconsistency as an invitation to try harder? That's what we really need to ask ourselves because that's where the growth is. And this is particularly true for you if it's a recurring pattern, if you consistently ask yourself this question of is someone avoiding or just not interested in me?

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Whenever we notice ourselves as the common denominator in a pattern in our relationships, that's where we have to look in the mirror and go, okay, what's going on for me here? And this is one where we have to go okay, what is it about someone else's disinterest or someone being lukewarm about me that feels like an invitation to prove myself and to try harder and to make them want me? Because that is our work, that is our worthiness stuff coming up. And if we're doing that with someone who isn't really interested then we are almost certainly just going to strive and strive and strive in the face of someone who didn't ever really care for us all that much in the first place, who was maybe kind of ambivalent towards us. And we made it our mission to change their mind, to convert them to be the one.

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And then we feel so hurt and disappointed when that doesn't come to fruition and we make it mean something about us and we fail to see how much of a role we've played in creating that situation and bringing ourselves to where we are. We throw our hands up and go, why does this happen to me? Why do I attract people like this? When really we've been a main character in that story again and again and again. Okay, so this wasn't really meant to turn into me standing on a soapbox and giving you this pep talk, but I think it's an important one because, as I said, I get this question all the time and it breaks my heart to see people who have a blind spot around their part in their pattern.

0:10:01.03 → 0:11:04.20

So if you are someone who is dating and you're feeling this question of why do I always attract avoidant people, why do I always attract people who are uninterested in me or who treat me in this very lukewarm way? I think the better question is, why do I look past the behaviour itself and try and find an explanation for it so that I can then roll up my sleeves and get to work in trying to change them? Or change the way they feel about me, rather than just seeing it for what it is and directing my energy and attention elsewhere towards a person or even just myself and my life in a way that is far more fruitful and nourishing and supportive for my well being. Why do I make it my mission to change someone's mind about me? I think that's the really fertile ground for deep insight about ourselves and our patterns and whatever wounds might be driving those patterns.

0:11:04.26 → 0:11:31.12

So I hope that that has been helpful. It might not be the answer that you were expecting when you started listening to this, but it might be the answer that you needed to hear if this is something that you struggle with. As always, super grateful if you could leave a rating or a review. If you're listening on Spotify, you can now leave a Q and a response at the bottom of the episode. So grateful for all of your ongoing support and I look forward to seeing you again soon.

0:11:31.22 → 0:11:55.98

Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating it really does help so much. Thanks again for being here. And I hope to see you again soon.

5 Tips for a Healthy, Balanced Nervous System

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In today's episode, we're talking all about nervous system regulation in the context of emotional wellbeing.

As many of you know, I'm a big advocate of incorporating bottom-up, somatically focused tools and awareness as part of the bigger picture of growth and healing. And a key piece of that work is understanding how to understand and support your nervous system.

WHAT WE COVER:

• why a healthy nervous system isn't about being calm all the time

• how to expand your comfort zone and resilience in a safe, sustainable way

• how to make a daily practice out of nervous system regulation

• how to counteract feeling powerless and overwhelmed

• building a toolkit for nervous system regulation and self-soothing

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.41 → 0:00:24.96

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here.

0:00:28.49 → 0:01:13.34

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm going to be sharing five principles or tips for a healthy nervous system. So if you've been listening to the show for a while, if you've done any of my courses or you've been in my world, you'll know that I wax lyrical about the importance of understanding your nervous system and building a level of fluency and literacy with regards to your nervous system and the way that it shapes your experience of life. And that might seem like a big statement, but it really is so pervasive in the way that it influences our thoughts, feelings, emotions, energy, everything.

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It is so foundational. And as I've said many times before, and I will say again and again, it is so often the missing piece that prevents people from making lasting and meaningful change in their lives. You may have listened to a recent episode that I did with Sarah Baldwin on Understanding Your Nervous System. And if you haven't listened to that episode and or you are interested in learning more of a 101 about the different states of the nervous system, I really encourage you to go back and listen to that, either before or after listening to this, as it'll give you some really useful context and background. So in this episode, I'm going to be giving you some principles and some tools.

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Ways to think about nervous system regulation and ways to weave that into your day to day life so that it becomes just part of what you think about when you reflect on how you're feeling and what you need and all of those pillars of self care making nervous system regulation. One of those is really, really supportive and will really upgrade the way that you experience your life. Again, I know that sounds like a big statement, but I wholeheartedly stand behind it. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements.

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You will have heard me speak about my Homecoming Mastermind, which is my six month small group programme. It is the most intimate way to work with me. I've had quite a number of people inquiring recently, about one on one coaching and unfortunately I'm not accepting new one on one clients for the foreseeable future. I'm trying to manage my capacity with a lot of other projects that I've got going on. This podcast plans to write a book, lots of other exciting things, but it does just mean that I'm somewhat capacity constrained and my Mastermind is a beautiful way for me to work really closely with people in a small group setting.

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In a way that allows for a level of intimacy akin to one to one coaching over the long term. So I really do get to know you and everything that you are experiencing and struggling with and give you that one to one support, but in a small group setting over a six month period. So if you are interested in working with me and you're ready to really invest in that longer term high level support, definitely go and cheque out all of the details and the link to apply, which is in the show notes. Okay, the second quick announcement is just to share the featured review, which is my eyes are open. The on attachment podcast is fantastic.

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I had some understanding of attachment styles, but I wanted to find out more about myself, my partner and friends and family. I'm definitely anxiously attached and have realised that after a few moments of conflict, my partner is an avoidantly attached person and I am hoping to work on myself. I'm on the weightless field programme. I really want my relationship to work and your information, tips and guidance is really giving me lots to work with. Thank you.

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Stephanie, thank you so much for that review. I'm so glad that you are finding the show to be a supportive resource in understanding yourself and your partner better. That's always great to hear. If that was your review, you can send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into these five principles for a healthy nervous system.

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So, the first one that I really want to get out of the way and emphasise is having a healthy nervous system is not about being calm or relaxed all the time. I think that this is a misconception that we can have that once you reach some place of having a regulated nervous system or being really grounded and having that capacity, that you're just going to be like a Zen Buddhist monk all the time. That is really not the case. I think that a huge part of understanding our nervous system is understanding how beautifully fit for purpose it is in keeping us safe from threats, from danger in the world around us. That is what it's there to do.

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So a healthy nervous system is not one that is just always at ease. A healthy nervous system is one that is flexible and adaptable and responds appropriately to the world around us. So that might mean sometimes mobilising you into a sympathetic nervous system response into fight or flight mode. That is not something that we need to solve for, it's just something that we need to channel intentionally. So the problem is not that sometimes you feel stressed and sometimes you go into a stress response that is exactly as it should be.

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It's just wanting to make sure that it matches the circumstances that we're facing. Where we really struggle and where we can get into unhealthy patterns is where we're responding as if we're being chased by a lion all day, every day and we are living with a level of chronic arousal or chronic stress or alternatively, chronic shutdown if we're in more of a dorsal vagal state. Again, if these terms are totally unfamiliar to you, definitely go and cheque out my episode with Sarah Baldwin a few weeks back. So just reiterating, it is not about being calm all the time. It is not about always being in regulation.

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It is about understanding where your nervous system is at, getting curious about that, and then having the tools to move between states in a way that is adaptive and appropriate to the circumstances in which we find ourselves in our lives. Okay, so the next principle that I want to share with you on building a healthy nervous system is that we want to step towards discomfort incrementally. So a lot of more old school approaches to healing or to personal growth would have you kind of throw yourself in the deep end to really go to extremes of discomfort as a way to kind of shock your system into whatever effect you're looking for. But most trauma informed nervous system focused lenses or approaches to growth and healing would adopt a paradigm or a framework of taking steps that are uncomfortable but safe. So taking a more incremental approach to change or growth that is not within our comfort zone.

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So it is stretching the edges of what is comfortable and familiar to us while also doing that in a way that isn't going to trigger a really strong protective response from your system. So to break that down a little bit, if we do something that is so far outside of what is known and familiar and comfortable to us, then our system is going to launch into a protective response. Again. That's not a problem, right? That's just your body keeping you safe.

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That's what it does all the time and that's what it's designed to do. So the problem is, sometimes when we go to extremes of discomfort that are so far outside of what is familiar to us, we can actually trigger a really strong, kind of snapback response, almost like getting a rubber band and just pulling it apart too quickly. And then it's going to pull back in a very pronounced way and very quickly. Right. It's going to snap back.

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So rather than doing that and pushing it to too much of an extreme where it's either going to snap or have an elastic response back, we want to stretch it slowly. So can I take a step that is uncomfortable but safe rather than uncomfortable and unsafe? So what does this look like in Practise? So an example might be if you're someone who really struggles with setting boundaries in relationships and you struggle with that in romantic relationships. You struggle with setting boundaries with a parent at work.

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All of these different settings feel really vulnerable for you to set boundaries and you have a lot of fear and self protection around that. Setting a boundary with a family member, so say setting a boundary with your mother might feel like the top rung of the ladder and so we're not going to go straight to that, right? That's not going to be safe for your system. It's going to be uncomfortable and unsafe in all likelihood because it's just too much too soon. So can we find a way that you could set a boundary in a much more low stakes, contained environment so that you can teach your system through show rather than tell that it is safe to do that?

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Okay, just 1% or 2% outside your comfort zone and we want to clock those easy wins so that your system will go, okay, I can do that. That was uncomfortable but I survived. I didn't die. The worst didn't happen. So we want to kind of run these controlled experiments to build up this body of evidence that we are able to do something that is uncomfortable rather than taking the risk and doing something that we really can't control.

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So really putting yourself out there in a relational context, whether that's romantic or familial somewhere that feels intensely high stakes and where you might get a response that confirms all of your worst fears and cements that as being something dangerous and unsafe. So we want to take steps towards discomfort, incrementally. So recognising that we do want to build our capacity by getting uncomfortable. Recognising that what our nervous system wants us to do will always be biassed towards what is perceived to be safe, which is what's going to be familiar and known but that's not necessarily in alignment with what we want for our lives. So always balancing this strong bias towards the familiar with wanting to experience things that are uncomfortable but ultimately safe.

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Okay, the next principle that I want to share with you is to treat your nervous system as a daily self care practise. Now I know that people can have a bit of an eye roll around self care and think that it's all about kind of bubble baths and lighting incense. That's not really what we're talking about here. It's more that can I cultivate a daily or even moment to moment awareness of what is going on in my nervous system and can I be attuned to and responsive to that as part of building up a really strong and nourishing relationship with myself? Okay, so the reason that we want to do this is a because it's so pervasive that it is affecting you on a moment to moment basis whether you like it or not.

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So you might as well be aware of it and be working with it rather than ignoring it or totally shut off from it. But also that it's going to be much easier to build up a baseline level of regulation to build up your capacity, to build your window of tolerance. It's going to be much easier to do that with a framework of daily care and maintenance rather than a reactive approach of firefighting or constantly feeling like we need to down regulate when we're in a stress response. So I always get asked by people, how do I regulate when I'm triggered? How do I regulate when I'm in conflict?

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How do I regulate when I'm freaking out and panicking? And of course that is something that we want to know how to do and there are plenty of tools for that. But we don't want to always be waiting for that, right? We don't want to let ourselves get to this peak stress response all the time and then have to go in as a firefighter and try and put out the flames. Ideally, we'd be catching ourselves as we start to notice activational stress and finding ways to really give ourselves that day to day care and maintenance.

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It's like any other aspect of health, right? We would much rather take a preventative approach and weave in these daily practises of overall well being rather than having to go to the emergency room all the time to fix things once they're broken or once they're in a really acute state of stress or ill health. So the next principle I want to share with you for cultivating a healthy nervous system is to remind yourself and emphasise that you have choice always. Okay, so what do I mean by this? Our nervous systems love choice and they really don't like feeling like they don't have choice, like we don't have choice.

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So this is why whenever you feel trapped or cornered or powerless, you are going to experience a big fear response in your body. And again, that makes sense, right? Of course we would. If we are as animals feeling like we're cornered and panicked and we don't have any choice and we're running out of options, we're going to go into a really fearful, stressed state. The trouble is that oftentimes we have that perception when it's not true.

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And that might be a legacy of an earlier time in our lives when we didn't have choice or when we didn't feel like we had choice. Maybe as children that's for many of us we will have memories of being a child, whether they're conscious memories or more implicit memories of being a child and having certain fears. And we didn't have many options on how to deal with those fears at the time. And that experience of having no choice, of having no options, of being powerless can linger in our bodies and in our nervous systems into adulthood. And so we can respond to situations as if we don't have choice, when really we do.

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So in building up your nervous system capacity, it's so important always to remind yourself right here, right now, I have choices, I have options. I might not have all the choices in the world, I might not be able to always do my most preferred thing, but I have choices and I have agency and I have options available to me. And so reminding ourselves of that and certainly as part of this, not wanting to perpetuate anything around self blame of shaming, forcing ourselves of criticising ourselves, of making ourselves do things in a really punitive way. Now, as a little side note, that is not to say that we can't have self discipline. If you know me and my work, I'm all about self discipline.

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But to me that is something that we gift ourselves rather than something we punish ourselves with. So reminding ourselves we have choice, I have choice, I have options. I don't need to force myself to do anything. I don't need to force myself to go to a party that I don't want to go to. As soon as you feel forced, you are going to feel stressed and anxious.

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So reminding yourself that you have choices, you have options, you have agency. Of course those choices may have consequences, but you also get to choose what path you take. And just offering that reminder to your nervous system in itself will create a lot of ease and space in your system where otherwise there might have been a sense of panic or feeling trapped or feeling powerless and the stress that comes with that. Okay, the last principle for a healthy nervous system, the last tip is build out a toolkit of resources for different states of your nervous system for different contexts, different environments, different emotional experiences, different triggers. Build up the toolkit so that you have before you this full banquet of options that you can draw from at any given moment based on what you need.

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Now, this one could be a whole episode in and of itself. It could probably be several episodes in and of itself. This is something that I teach in healing, anxious attachment and it's consistently the thing that people walk away going, wow, this really changes everything because I feel so much more empowered to soothe myself through those moments. So rather than just panicking and clutching at other people, needing something from someone in order to feel okay, we can go, oh, okay, I'm feeling really activated. I have a lot of sympathetic charge in my nervous system.

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I have a lot of anxious activated energy. What do I need? And having five to ten options of things that you can go, okay, I know that when I'm anxious, these things help. So maybe that's going for a walk, maybe that's getting sunshine, maybe that's going to the gym and getting a good workout in, maybe it's some sort of movement dancing or shaking or beating your chest or doing any sort of thing that allows you to process some of that mobilisation energy. All of those are great options to have.

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And the more that you can put together a list that makes sense for you and your life and your preferences and your body and the way that your system works, the more you have that at hand to draw. From whether you are at work and you feel stressed or you're on a date or you're at home and you haven't heard from someone and you're starting to panic, you can go, okay, what do I need in this moment? What's the thing that works? Because your ability to think of a solution when you're in that state might be hampered by the fact that you're in a stress response. So having kind of done the legwork prior and already figured out what works for you, then all you have to do is execute on the thing that you've already planned for and that is really, really helpful and really, really supportive.

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So building up a toolkit for when I'm in a stress response and I'm feeling really anxious or when I'm in more of a dorsal response and I feel totally flat, unmotivated, hopeless. I feel like I can't even respond to an email. I'm so completely devoid of energy, I'm not even here in my body. What do I need when I'm in that state? Maybe I need to have a nap.

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Maybe I need a hot water bottle. Maybe I need to lie with my dog. Maybe I need to go for a short walk. All of these different things that we can just look at and go, okay, what do I need? What might help me right now?

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Maybe a warm cup of tea. But just having those things to hand rather than trying to come up with a solution in the moment is going to be so, so supportive for you in building that healthy nervous system. And of course, as I said in the third point, we don't want to just be doing these as reactive or kind of firefighting practises when we're already dysregulated. We also want to have a toolkit for what we do every single day to consistently be banking some money or filling up the tank in a way that feels really nourishing and restorative rather than running the tank dry and then having to do some sort of emergency response. So all of the things that help you on a day to day basis to feel grounded and supported and safe and connected and creative and loved and all of those beautiful things that contribute to our overall well being and that are so grounded in our nervous system.

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Okay, so I hope that that's been helpful. To quickly recap those five principles were healthy nervous system is not about being calm all the time. It's about being able to move between states and feeling like we are kind of in control of that system. The second principle was to take steps that are uncomfortable but ultimately safe. So we want to incrementally stretch out our comfort zone rather than going to extremes and then having a big protective response.

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We want to treat our nervous system regulation as a daily practise of care and maintenance, rather than running the tank dry and having to go into emergency mode. We always want to emphasise choice and remind ourselves that we have options and we have agency and we want to build up a toolkit for all of our different states, for different contexts, for different emotions, for different triggers. So that we feel equipped with a plan and we really feel empowered to, again, be kind of in the driver's seat of our experience rather than feeling like these things are happening to us and we don't have any control over it. So that was five principles for a healthy nervous system. I really hope you enjoyed this episode.

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As always, I am eternally grateful for those of you who leave reviews, who leave ratings. As I mentioned last week, you can now leave little comments on Spotify for specific episodes. So if you're listening to this on Spotify and you want to give me some feedback for a given episode, then please do that. Underneath the episode description, it should be relatively easy to find otherwise. Thank you so much for joining me and I look forward to seeing you again later in the week.

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Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much.

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Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.

"When is taking a break in a relationship a good idea?"

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

In today's episode, I'm answering the community question of "when is it a good idea to take a break in a relationship?" This can be a really tricky situation, particularly where one person wants to take a break and the other doesn't.

WHAT WE COVER:

• things to consider & discuss before taking a break

• do's and don'ts of taking a break

• examples of where a break can be healthy & productive

• what to do when sex becomes a heavy, high-pressure topic in your relationship

• navigating boundaries around taking a break (e.g. around duration, exclusivity, and intentions)

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

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You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm going to be answering the community question of is it ever a good idea to take a break in a relationship?

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And talking about a lot of associated questions like when is it a good idea to take a break? How should we go about taking a break in a relationship? What is best practise there? What are some things to ask yourself and consider, maybe talk about with your partner before you take that step of taking a break in a relationship, short of actually breaking up. And that will be one of the things, as a bit of a spoiler alert that you should absolutely be clear on with your partner, what the boundaries of that arrangement are going to be before we dive into that.

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Just wanted to share the featured review for today, which is my husband and I are loving the episodes that we've listened to so far. They're very insightful and the topics feel super relatable. Also, the bite size length is an added bonus. Thank you so much for that beautiful review. If that was yours, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my Masterclasses.

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Given that you and your husband are listening together, I would recommend my how to navigate anxious avoidant relationships. Masterclass. Of course. I don't know whether you and your husband fall into that category, but it is a really great masterclass for couples and I've had a lot of people watch the masterclass as a couple and come away with it with much greater understanding of one another tools and compassion for the other person's experience and thereby a lot more connection with one another. So if you and your husband do fall into that category of anxious avoidant dynamics, I definitely recommend sending an email to my team and requesting access to that Masterclass.

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So let's dive into this conversation around is it ever a good idea to take a break in a relationship and if so, under what circumstances and what do you need to be aware of prior to doing that? And I want to start this discussion by using an example from pop culture, which is very unlike me. If you know me personally, you know that I am woefully bad on pop culture references. It's just not my thing. But I did grow up watching Friends, and anyone who would remember watching Friends, you would remember Ross and Rachel and how they famously went on a break in the middle of an argument.

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Rachel says, I think we just need to take a break from us and ross looks at her and then walks out of the apartment and he goes and gets drunk. He's so upset, he gets drunk. He ends up sleeping with someone and then this whole story unfolds around whether that was acceptable or not. Rachel says, how could you do that? You went out that night and slept with someone.

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That was totally not okay. He insists that we were on a break, so it's fine. I didn't do anything wrong. And that becomes this whole kind of ongoing joke throughout the rest of the show. So there are a lot of lessons that we can learn from Ross and Rachel to avoid being in a situation whereby one person thinks that something's acceptable and the other one doesn't.

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And the really obvious thing here is communicate. If you are thinking of taking a break in your relationship, there needs to be a lot of very clear communication in advance of that on what the boundaries of that arrangement are. Are you taking time apart but you are still kind of monogamous? Are you fully breaking up for a period of time and you're going to go and potentially sleep with other people, date other people? Is it for a set period of time?

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Is it we're going to spend time apart for a month or is it open ended? Do you have any plans on when you're going to come back together to talk about things? Are there any specific questions that you are both going to be reflecting on in your time apart? All of these things need to be talked about ahead of making that decision because the very worst thing that you can do is exactly what Ross and Rachel did, which is in the middle of a fight. Say we need to take a break and then leave it at that.

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Go your separate ways and be on completely different pages around where you're at and what is okay and what's not okay, what the boundaries of that situation are. That is a really surefire way to hurt each other, to maybe inadvertently breach trust and cause yourselves a lot more pain and grief in the long run. That might make it hard to come back together if that is your intention. So I suppose the first tip is be very, very clear. Have those conversations.

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Let it be something that is thought out, not something that is impulsive and not something that originates with one person and is something that one person is using as a bargaining chip or a threat or anything like that to try and get their way in the relationship. And that really leads me to one of the most important things that I'm always telling people around a break, and usually this is coming from anxiously attached people who are saying, my partner, often an avoidant partner, wants to take a break. I don't really want to, but I'm scared that it's either break or break up. So I'm going to agree to a break as the lesser of two evils. And if that is the situation that you are in, I know how hard it is, I know how scared you are of losing them.

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But I promise you that that is such an act of self betrayal and self abandonment that you are going to end up in so much more pain as a result of that. Because essentially what you are saying, the subtext of what you are agreeing to, is, I am terrified of losing you and so I will do whatever you say and whatever you want in order to minimise the chances of that happening. And while that might be the honest truth, it is also really unhealthy to be in a relationship that is that one sided and that asymmetrical in terms of who's holding the cards, you need to have a little more power over your own destiny than that. And giving it all over to someone else and just waiting and hoping that they call and hoping that they change their mind and hoping that they come back to you is a very, very disempowering position to be in and it is going to cost you hugely in your self worth and how you feel in that relationship. Just play it out right.

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If you do get back together, there's always going to be this looming thing, this cloud over you of at any moment, they could play that trump card, they could say, oh, well, maybe we need to take a break again, and you're right back in that position. You shrink and shrink and get smaller and smaller because you're worried that if you put a foot out of line, there's always that threat, right? There's always that thing of they can just leave or they can just say, let's take a break, this is too much, too hard. There's always that just waiting in the wings for you and that will cause you to self abandon, to have no boundaries, to have no needs, to get very, very small and very, very suppressed in yourself. And I promise you that that is not worth it.

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That is not worth what it will cost you. So please do not agree to take a break from a place of fear of losing someone if you don't. If they're essentially saying, either we need to take a break or I'm going to leave you, I really don't think and particularly if you're more anxiously attached, I really don't think that that is a very healthy arrangement, because it's just too one sided in terms of who is determining what the future of that relationship looks like. That needs to be a joint decision, that needs to be something that takes into account both of your needs and concerns rather than just one person's. With all of that being said, and I realise that, having talked for ten minutes about all of the things of what not to do, I don't want you to feel like it's never a good idea to take a break in a relationship because that's not true, of course.

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It's more that we do need to be really mindful of the fact that a break can be challenging and there are lots of ways that we can do it wrong or do it in a way that's not going to be conducive to not only potentially coming back together stronger, but actually using that time apart meaningfully and productively. And I think that if it is infused with a lot of fear and insecurity, it's not going to be productive time spent apart, because you're just going to be ruminating and thinking and obsessing about the other person and trying to find a way to get them back or to change yourself for them in a way that's going to make you more acceptable to them. And that is not good. But there can absolutely be circumstances in which taking a break could be the right thing and could make a lot of sense for your relationship. So this will usually be kind of ironically for people who are in more of a secure relationship or at least on more of a level playing field in terms of, I hesitate to say power dynamics in the relationship, but I think that's essentially the crux of it.

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As I said, if it's one person holding all the cards and threatening and saying I'm going to leave and the other person cowering, that's not a good foundation upon which to take a break. But say you guys were in a relationship, you'd been together for a really long time, and one person was going to go overseas on a work placement. And you both agreed that it might be a good opportunity for you to try living apart for a while and exploring other connections and not being tethered to a long distance relationship. For example, that might be a scenario in which you'd consider taking a break. You might take a break if you were both having doubts about the relationship and you felt really suffocated or overwhelmed or stressed by being in the same space all the time and prior to taking the next step in your relationship.

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You both felt that it was a good idea to have some time and space apart, to really reassess and to reflect and to make sure that you were consciously and intentionally choosing one another as you move forward in your life and relationship, rather than just doing that by default because that's what people do, right? It might give you the oxygen that your relationship needs in order to really realise what you appreciate about each other or maybe to realise that it's not the relationship for you and for you to both go through that process of conscious reflection and intentionality. So these are some of the situations where taking a break, taking time apart might be really productive and might be really healthy and might be in service of your relationship, both with each other and with yourself. In the long run, it might lead to a more honest and authentic relationship and one that is more deliberate rather than default. So I think the key takeaways here are a break in a relationship can be a good opportunity to reflect and to take stock and to cultivate that intentionality and to really choose one another from a place of yes, I fully want this, rather than from a place of fear or lack or scarcity.

0:11:49.06 → 0:12:24.79

But we really want to make sure that if we are going to take that step, that it's mutually agreed upon, it's coming from both people. It is not driven by fear, it is not some tactic of manipulation, it is not an alternative to breaking up. It's not a step down from breaking up, and you're choosing the lesser of two evils. And we do want to make sure that if you do take a break, you're not spending that time just obsessing over the other person. That time should be spent figuring out who you are and what you want, depending on the parameters of the relationship and the boundaries.

0:12:24.95 → 0:13:07.17

If you are open to seeing other people in that time, then using that opportunity to do that and to make sure that you are making it worth your while rather than just obsessing over the other person and hoping that they're going to come back to you again. That is really the worst case scenario in my eyes, is taking the break as a way to hold on to someone when you feel like they're slipping away. I think that's a really myopic short term strategy, and it tends to cost you a lot in the long term, so definitely don't do that if that's the situation that you're in. So I really hope that that's been helpful. As always, super grateful if you could leave a review or a rating, whether you're listening on Apple or Spotify.

0:13:07.25 → 0:13:25.14

As I've mentioned, Spotify now has a feature where you can leave comments on a particular episode. So if you're listening on Spotify, please do feel free to do that and I will read them all. Otherwise, thank you so much for joining me and I look forward to seeing you again soon. Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment.

0:13:25.25 → 0:13:45.70

If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.

How to Talk About Sex with Vanessa & Xander Marin

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

In today's episode, I'm joined by Vanessa & Xander Marin.  She’s a sex therapist with 20 years of experience, he’s a regular dude, and they recently co-authored their first book Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life, which became an instant NYT bestseller.

WHAT WE COVER:

• the five conversations you need to be having about sex

• navigating mismatched libido & (perceived) sexual rejection in relationships

• how emotional intimacy (or lack thereof) impacts sexual intimacy

• what to do when sex becomes a heavy, high-pressure topic in your relationship

• how to bring back fun, play & lightness to your sex life

Follow Vanessa & Xander on Instagram @vanessaandxander, and tune in to their podcast, Pillow Talks, for totally do-able sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. 

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.41 → 0:00:37.34

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge, and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm joined by Vanessa and Xander Marin, and we are here to talk all about sex.

0:00:37.53 → 0:00:49.49

So, Vanessa and Xander, welcome. It is great to have you. Thanks for having us. Yeah, we're excited to be here. So you guys have just recently released a book, Sex Talks, which is an instant New York Times bestseller.

0:00:49.54 → 0:01:24.24

Congratulations. Thank you. Super exciting. And I think today we can go into a lot of that what you guys cover in the book and more broadly, conversations around sex and where we can get stuck sexually, why we can get stuck sexually and what we can do to sort of take matters back into our own hands and not feel like sex is this big, scary thing that sits outside of our control and that then feeds all of this shame and stigma and aloneness. Because I think it can feel pretty lonely when we're in that place.

0:01:24.34 → 0:01:45.24

Absolutely. I'd love to hear from you. Just to start off, why do you think it is that we can struggle so much to talk about sex? And I think sometimes it feels like it's harder to talk about our partner, the person that we love and care about and know most deeply. It's actually harder to talk to them about sex than maybe someone that you just met.

0:01:45.34 → 0:02:27.29

I think it's hard for us to talk about sex because we really don't have any examples. I mean, if you think about every sex scene that you see in the movies, on TV, you never see characters talking to each other about the sex that they're having or not having with each other. And when we see that exact same sort of scene repeated over and over again throughout our lifetimes, of course we're going to internalise this belief that we shouldn't have to talk about it. It's supposed to just unfold naturally and effortlessly. So when we get into our own sex lives and there are things that we want to communicate with, we struggle because we just have this feeling that we're not supposed to have to.

0:02:27.44 → 0:02:54.81

And furthermore, if you think back, do you have any good examples of having non awkward conversations about sex in your life? For most of us, our very first example or first conversation we ever had about sex was the talk with our parents. And usually that doesn't go particularly well. You can pick up on the fact that your parents feel super awkward about this topic. It feels embarrassing, it feels shameful.

0:02:54.86 → 0:03:21.59

Or maybe they don't even have the conversation with you because they're too embarrassed to even bring it up. And as kids, we pick up on stuff like that. And so our first experiences tend to be, oh, this is a topic that we tend to avoid. Sex is obviously important. It's something that we all want to do, but we don't have that experience of talking about it, so we just try to figure out how to do it without actually communicating about it.

0:03:21.76 → 0:04:10.95

Yeah, totally. I think that, as you say, if we just don't have the reference point for what that looks like, then not only are we kind of fumbling around, so to speak, but we also have the expectation that we shouldn't have to. I know you guys talk a lot about sexual perfectionism and this expectation of, like, I should just know how to do this. And to the extent that I don't, then there must be something wrong with me because all I'm seeing is these examples, whether it's in movies or porn, which I think for most people is like, the two areas that we get our sex education, which is pretty woeful. There is this sense of brokenness or wrongness to the extent that our real sex life deviates from that depiction of it.

0:04:10.99 → 0:04:43.87

And I think that both people in the dynamic can be feeling that without talking about it. And no one wants to be the one to raise the fact that there's a problem or to acknowledge that there's work to be done there. And so it can just become this really pressure laden elephant in the room topic that we're tiptoeing around. And one of the big problems there, too, is that most of us will wait to talk about sex until something is really bad in our sex life. There's something that we're really not enjoying.

0:04:43.92 → 0:05:06.22

We're feeling super disconnected. Maybe we're not having sex at all. And so we hit that boiling point, and that's the point where we decide, fine, I've had enough. We have to talk about it. And of course, that's a very scary starting point if that's the first time you're approaching your partner to talk about it, and it only leaves you with the experience of, oh, sex is a scary thing to talk about.

0:05:06.27 → 0:05:20.86

When we have to talk about it, that's a bad sign. Yeah. And then therefore, you want to try to do everything in your power to make your sex life just okay enough so that you never have to have that feeling again. Never have to have that conversation again. Right?

0:05:20.96 → 0:05:47.05

Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think that's such a good point. It's only when it reaches crisis, and I think this is true for a lot of relationship stuff, that it's like the crisis point is the point at which we finally go, okay, there's something to address here. Rather than being proactive about the way we approach it and going, okay, this is something we talk about to enhance it and optimise it, rather than to fix something that's broken.

0:05:47.55 → 0:06:29.91

Because I think as you say once you're reaching that point, you're coming to the conversation with so much charge, so much sensitivity, all of those wounds that we all carry to varying degrees around unworthiness or undesirability. There's a good chance you've been having a lot of conversations in your own head preceding the real one that you have with your partner. So I think you're kind of, like, braced for the impact and the fallout of that. And it can become a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy there in that we both just get really guarded and protective about the way we approach that conversation, which, as you say, reinforces that this is not a safe thing to talk about. That this is not a productive thing to talk about.

0:06:29.98 → 0:06:52.64

We're stuck, there's no way out of this, and downward we spiral. So what do we do with all of that? I mean, I feel like we've gotten to the what do we do very quickly. I mean, obviously you've got this book, Sex Talks, and the premise being that there are these five conversations that can transform the way that you approach to sex. Do you want to share with everyone a bit of a bird's eye view of what the book is all about?

0:06:53.57 → 0:07:14.83

We start in a completely different place. Yeah, we're going to do it totally different from what we just described. So the first conversation of the five conversations, we call it acknowledgment, aka sex, is a thing. We have it. So the idea in this conversation is we want to ease you into talking about sex with your partner.

0:07:14.96 → 0:07:49.97

We want you to get comfortable with sex as a topic of conversation and we're not doing anything else in this conversation, so we're not giving feedback, we're not making complaints, we're not initiating sex. We have nothing, no agenda on the table here. It's literally just getting comfortable talking about sex. So one very practical thing that people can do if they want to get started is take a moment to think about one of your favourite sexual memories with your partner and then share that memory with them. So you can do that face to face.

0:07:50.04 → 0:08:32.48

If you're feeling shy, you can do it over text message instead. But what you're doing here is creating a positive experience around talking about sex, creating a positive foundation for the communication that you're going to continue having and showing yourself and your partner, that we can talk about sex and it can feel calm and playful and fun. Yeah. And I think that that is so important, having those corrective experiences where if we've only ever had that version of it that feels really scary and big and overwhelming, we actually need to show our system that there is another version of that. As much as we can intellectually know that, or rationally, we like, yeah, of course, hypothetically, that could exist.

0:08:32.53 → 0:09:18.06

I think having the low stakes, relaxed, calm version of a conversation about sex that actually feels connective rather than high pressure and high stakes. I can imagine why that is really beneficial. Yeah. And I mean, if you have had a lot of experience in your relationship of many of those high stakes type of conversations, you're going to have to have a number of these kind of agenda free, acknowledgment conversations to build that habit or that baseline of, you know, kind of walking back from where you all the pressure that you used to feel of like, okay, just bringing even bringing up the word sexual memory is making you feel like, oh, God, they're going to think I have an agenda. Yeah.

0:09:18.11 → 0:09:45.78

It's just going to have to be something that you repeat over and over to start breaking down those associations. But the idea is that over time, the acknowledgment conversation can actually just kind of turn into a way of flirting with your partner, of like, oh, acknowledging something about the sex that you just had. Acknowledging sex is a topic of like, this might be something we might want to do later. I can't stop thinking about last night. That was fun.

0:09:45.91 → 0:10:12.94

Yeah. So it definitely can feel like, okay, yeah. At the beginning it's like, this is a new way of thinking about sex and talking about sex and breaking those associations. But long term, a lot of people think, oh, well, we just need to acknowledge it and then we can move on. But it's actually like, this is one of the most foundational conversations because you can keep doing it and it actually just keeps helping you feel more connected, keeps your sex drive up and all those good things.

0:10:12.99 → 0:10:35.94

Yeah, totally. Would you advise people who are in a bit of a rut to start there? Obviously, in an ideal world, we'd be proactive. We'd be doing all of this from day one and laying the foundations for a really healthy, thriving sexual relationship straight out of the gate. But recognising that a lot of people haven't started there and might be in a really disconnected state.

0:10:35.99 → 0:11:12.99

Sexually mismatched, libido, all of those things that we can get into. Is it still best to return to acknowledgment as the starting point and just try and drop all of the other emotional weight and charge that might be living in your sex life? Yes. We wrote sex talks for all kinds of couples, for couples who are in a rut and really struggling, and for couples who feel like our sex life is pretty great, but we want to explore more, go deeper. So we definitely recommend that as the starting point for every couple, there is in that chapter instructions for how to have what we call like a fresh start conversation.

0:11:13.07 → 0:11:42.33

If you have talked about sex a lot in your relationship and it has only ever led to fighting a way to sort of clear the slate with each other and say, okay, you know what? I know we have really struggled to talk about this in the past, but let's wipe the slate clean and let's try to start fresh. Yeah. And I think that even if, say, you're in the midst of a really long dry spell, it's still important to be able to have this type of acknowledgment conversation. And maybe there's a little more to be wrapped into that of.

0:11:42.37 → 0:12:23.24

Like, I'm talking about this because sex is something that's important to me, and it's something that we both want for our relationship, regardless of where we're at right now. Because I think that's a mistake that a lot of people make is they feel like, well, I can't possibly acknowledge or talk about sex unless we are in a really good place with it. Because by acknowledging it, somehow I'm also going to have to acknowledge the fact that we're in the midst of a dry spell. But when you're in the midst of a dry spell, both people are aware of that. You're not fooling anybody by not talking about it.

0:12:23.37 → 0:13:16.71

Yeah. And I think that that can be really hard right when sex has become this thing between you that you don't want to touch and you don't want to talk about, and particularly when it's in that dry spell that's maybe fueled by mismatched libido over kind of a longer term and there's been one person wanting sex and the other not pulling away. The person wanting sex is probably going to be the person raising the conversation because that's how it usually goes. And I think navigating that dynamic of the person who's wanting sex and feeling rejected versus the person who doesn't want sex for whatever reason, that they may know or not know and feeling the pressure and feeling the guilt and the shame. I realise it's a bit of a diversion from the five conversations, but I'm sure it will be something that a lot of people can relate to.

0:13:16.83 → 0:13:48.48

This whole topic of mismatched libido and that dynamic of you do have one person who's feeling rejected and one person who's feeling guilty and broken. How can we talk about that and navigate it in a way that doesn't just feed those sensitivities and wounds on both sides? We start off the book by sharing the story of how we struggled with this in our own relationship in the first couple of years. And it was really challenging for us. I wanted us to talk about sex.

0:13:48.54 → 0:14:26.14

I wanted us to go to therapy and really work on our relationship. And Xander was not at the point where he was ready to. And it was a couple of the most painful months of our relationship of just sitting in that, what do I do? And so we wanted to start off being super vulnerable and sharing that story just to normalise. In relationships, it is so common for couples to be on different timelines and different pages, not only about do we want to be having sex or not how much sex we want to be having, but also are we ready to talk about this?

0:14:26.24 → 0:15:04.35

And so I wanted to just validate the experience of the person who's picking up the book and reading it. You're being very brave and you're going first, and it might be very challenging to feel that resistance from your partner or to feel them not wanting to engage with you. So we share that story and then we give specific tips for helping get your partner engaged in that conversation. And again, I know we've said it before, but trying to build that positive foundation of communication is going to be the best way to get started. Because if you go in hot and heavy and this is what I did in the beginning when we were struggling, why aren't we having sex?

0:15:04.42 → 0:15:25.79

Why don't you want to have sex with me more often? Yeah. And I just felt horrible. I felt horrible about our relationship, I felt horrible about myself, about myself as a man came into it, the sort of gender dynamics and yeah, it was not a fun way to go through that. Fortunately, we muddled through it.

0:15:25.83 → 0:15:52.80

We got some help eventually and I think we've tried to lay it all out in the book. Like, these are the ways that are better not to do it. These are the right ways to do it. Yeah. I also loved in that opening chapter, I mean, I really appreciated your vulnerability because I think it had that exact impact of it's very disarming to people reading it who otherwise feel alone and self conscious in that experience.

0:15:53.41 → 0:16:31.41

I also liked how you contrasted it with the initial chemistry and that kind of fall from grace, where we go, oh, no, what happened? Have we lost something kind of irretrievably? And when we don't really know what happened, then we feel kind of powerless. And again, particularly if there's one person who's wanting it to be like it was and kind of lamenting the loss of that kind of the transition from the honeymoon period into something different, I think that that can be really challenging. I know that in my work, a lot of it is around those anxious, avoidant dynamics.

0:16:31.46 → 0:17:19.19

And what I see time and time again is a lot of sexual intensity and chemistry to begin with. And I think that sometimes that intensity allows us to bypass having conversations because we don't really have to talk about it. It's just like the chemistry carries the whole encounter and then once that chemical haze subsides a bit, we realise that we've never really talked about sex. And other stuff can come up on the more avoidance side of the street, I think it's like, oh, I actually don't know how to be sexual with someone that I love and care about. This feels extremely vulnerable all of a sudden, and so there can be this kind of pulling away sexually and then the anxious person starts to freak out and goes, oh my God, like they're losing interest in me.

0:17:19.39 → 0:17:42.92

What have I done wrong? And so starts to push and escalate and poke and try and get that engagement back, which only causes more pulling away. Is that something that you see as well? And what would you sort of say to people who experience that dynamic, which I know is a lot of people? Yeah, the pursuer distancer, it's a classic dynamic that comes up so much.

0:17:43.02 → 0:18:11.19

If someone pulls away, then we just want to get drawn to them more. So, I mean, there are a bunch of things that you brought up in that one is a normalisation, that initial chemistry. Yes. It feels so good and it feels like this is the sign from the universe that I found my person. The chemistry is so good, but we walk through normalising that that stage chemically can really only last six to twelve months, max.

0:18:11.35 → 0:18:28.83

And then we settle into a different kind of intimacy in the relationship. But I think so many of us feel really afraid when we notice that spark start to fade. We get so scared of, what does this mean? Is this not actually my person? The signs in the universe is wrong.

0:18:28.90 → 0:19:03.56

And that can really activate that pursuer distance or dynamic, where one person might respond to that fear by I want to draw closer to you to make sure that we're going to stay together, and the other person might get avoidant and scared of, oh God, maybe this isn't the right fit. I need to kind of back away a little bit. Yeah. And I think there's so much meaning making on both sides, right. On the pursuer side, it's like I've done something and there tends to be a lot of unworthiness stuff there and a lot of personalization and internalising everything that's going wrong is like, I've done something wrong.

0:19:03.61 → 0:19:20.00

I've done something to cause you to lose attraction to me. And then on the other side it's like, I don't know why I'm not attracted to you, but the more you're coming at me like this, the more I have this urge to push you away and making that mean that there must be something wrong.

0:19:22.21 → 0:20:06.57

There's one chapter in the book where we share communication tips for going into the conversation. And those tips work really well for any kind of conversation, not just talking about sex, but one of them is called cheque your stories with each other. So we all make meaning of everything that our partner says and does, regardless of if it's in the pursuer distance or dynamic or not. But one thing that we've found especially helpful in our relationship is to actually speak those stories out loud and to ask our partner, is this accurate or not? So it's not like an accusation, like, oh, you're doing this because of blah blah blah, but it's an acknowledgement, hey, I'm realising I'm telling a story in my head that actually using that language.

0:20:06.65 → 0:20:23.37

I'm telling a story or I'm making up a story. Yeah. And then you can cheque that story with them. So that way it's not dumping it on them, it's not accusing them of anything. It's acknowledging that you're doing this yourself, but then you're checking it.

0:20:23.54 → 0:20:46.12

So it allows you to air out the fear. Because when we hold those fears inside and we don't share them, they often just feel stronger and stronger, and then that can make the way that we are approaching our partner even more intense. So it allows you to air out the fear, but in a way, like Xander said, it's taking ownership of it. I'm making up this story. This is how I'm putting the things together in my head.

0:20:46.25 → 0:21:02.11

Here's the story. Is that true? So then you're giving your partner the opportunity to say, oh, no, that's not true. That's not at all how I viewed the situation, or what I thought, or what I said, or anything like that. So it gives them the opportunity to correct.

0:21:02.26 → 0:21:47.10

Yeah, I love that. And my partner and I do that pretty much every conversation, every kind of relationship conversation is like, story. I'm telling myself, is this, or there's a part of me that's wanting to say this, or there's a part of me that's getting really angry, or that wants to tell you this. And I think that, as you say, it's like the ownership and kind of the witnessing of ourselves in it and taking that responsibility rather than just spewing it out on our partner and treating it as fact, which there's a lot of temptation to do that, I think, again, particularly around sex, which just feels so tender and vulnerable to just go into a really protective mode without even realising it. Just saying, Why don't you want this?

0:21:47.15 → 0:22:15.84

Or what's wrong with you? Any of that kind of language is just put someone in their own protective state and on the defensive, very reliably, and it's just not a productive starting point. And also using words like, there's a part of me, or, this is the story that I'm making up, it also makes you turn inward and figure out what is it that I'm feeling? What is it that I'm telling myself? It's so easy for us to focus on our partners.

0:22:15.90 → 0:22:37.37

You did this. You said that you feel this. You made me feel that. But that, of course, like you were just saying, only puts your partner on the defensive. None of us like being told what we think or feel, but it also completely cuts you out of the equation if you're just focusing so much on your partner's words and feelings and actions and all of that.

0:22:37.41 → 0:23:04.55

So if you turn that focus inward and say, okay, what is it that's actually here for me? What is it that's actually coming up for me? Because it's those feelings and emotions that really need tended to. If I were to tell Xander you feel this way, and he said, okay, sure, I feel that way, that's not actually going to be that satisfying for me because there's some underlying feeling that's being activated in me. That's why I'm attacking him.

0:23:04.62 → 0:23:38.36

So if I can access what that feeling is and say, this is what needs tending to, this is what I need, that's going to make the conversation go in such a healthier and more positive direction. Yeah, I think when we can down our shield and our sword and be like, what's the underneath part for me? What's the scared part in me? And can I vulnerably share that with you? It's not going to be comfortable, but you've got a much better chance of actually getting to the heart of whatever is happening and building a bridge between you rather than just like, firing arrows back and forth.

0:23:38.55 → 0:24:34.56

Something that I think, again, I certainly have personal experience with and I know a lot of other people will relate to is this distinction between, like, yeah, I want to have sex with you, but I actually want you to want that. And that thing that we want to be able to control our partner's feelings towards it rather than just getting the outcome of sex. And there can be a lot of charge around that and a lot of emotional density in that kind of dynamic of like it's not just that I want differently. I get a question a lot, which is like, how can I reframe it for myself so that I don't feel like my partner's doing me a favour by agreeing to have sex? Or like, that sex feels like a chore for them and it kind of detracts from it from my point of view, because I don't just want sex, the activity, I want a feeling of connectedness and I want to feel wanted.

0:24:34.69 → 0:25:12.88

Yeah, we call this I want you to want me. The dynamic that comes up a lot around this, we call this the inhibition effect that the longer you are in a relationship, the more inhibited we tend to get with each other around sex, particularly around initiation. So a lot of people, you've been in a relationship with your partner for years, even decades, and you find yourself getting more and more awkward and nervous and anxious about initiating sex. And so a lot of us in long term relationships, the way that we initiate intimacy is very boring, not particularly exciting. It's often like, it's been a while.

0:25:13.25 → 0:25:22.69

We do it. Do you want to do it? It's not very exciting. And it definitely doesn't give us that feeling of being desired. If Xander just tells me, do you want to do it?

0:25:22.76 → 0:25:54.60

I don't feel desired by him. Yeah. I mean, the only way that I respond super positively if she just goes, Want to do it? Is if I happen to be wildly horny. In that moment, you're actually not doing yourself any favours by a kind of low energy or roundabout initiation, because that actually sets the bar so high for your partner and you're setting them up to fail the test that you're kind of wanting to give, which is I want you to say yes and be super excited.

0:25:54.66 → 0:26:12.13

Right. So to get into the practicalities of this, the first step that you need to start with is identifying what makes you feel desired and wanted. So if I just tell Xander I want you to want me, great. What is that? Yeah, exactly.

0:26:12.28 → 0:26:37.61

And it could be very different things. So, for me, maybe the way that I feel wanted is by him giving me compliments about you. Like, you look so good, that outfit looks so nice on you, but somebody else might feel very wanted if their partner comes up behind them and just wraps them up in a hug. Somebody totally different might like, I like when my partner just grabs me out of nowhere and gives me a big kiss. So there are a lot of different ways that we can feel wanted.

0:26:37.68 → 0:26:56.87

And if your partner doesn't know the ways that work for you, then they're going to feel that nervousness and that anxiety and not really wanting to approach you with that energy. Yeah. And that's kind of where the second and the third conversations in the book come in. So the second conversation is connection. What do we need to feel connected?

0:26:56.97 → 0:27:19.52

And the third one is desire. What do we need to get turned on? And so with both of these, it's really about trying to uncover what are the things that make me feel most connected to you and what are the things that I do to you that make you feel most connected to me? And then, similarly, same thing with the desire. Like, what things really supercharge our own desire?

0:27:19.58 → 0:27:40.73

What things does our partner like? And how do we kind of give each other both what we need? The reality is, when we don't know what those things are, we tend to just assume, well, she must work the same way I work. So the things I love it when she cuddles me. So therefore, if I want to get more connected to her, I should just cuddle her.

0:27:40.77 → 0:28:16.49

And the reality is, what I've come to learn is vanessa physical affection is not the first thing that makes her feel the most connected to me or the most turned on. And in fact, Vanessa actually loves compliments. There's some very specific compliments that I have learned that she responds really, really well to. If I tell her she's killing it at anything, literally anything, she totally lights up. But if we had never talked about this, I would have never known that, because that, to me, I'm like, okay, thanks.

0:28:16.64 → 0:28:51.56

That's nice compliment, I guess I'm definitely not turned on as a result of that. And so it. Took me learning that and then actually having a lot of repetitions of doing it before I really, truly believed that it was working. Because to me it just seems so like it seemed too easy. But the reality is there's probably a lot of really easy ways that you could be feeling more connected with your partner, you could be turning each other on more that you are just not aware of, or you haven't had those things reinforced enough so that you really truly believe that you need to do them.

0:28:52.25 → 0:29:58.97

Yeah, and I think that that kind of leads into a really again, an important thing to normalise is like getting a bit pragmatic about curating your sex life and your life more broadly in a way that is supportive to your desire for sex and your connectedness with your partner. Again, it goes back to this very unrealistic expectation that if it's right, it should just be effortless or they should know everything that I need without me needing to tell them. My partner should be able to figure me out, know me better than I know myself totally. And that it's like some sort of indictment on us or our relationship if we have to take steps to make it work for ourselves. So I think whether it's curating contextually what supports us to desire sex or desire our partner or getting really clear on what gets in the way of that and kind of getting ahead of it rather than just expecting the stars to align and for us in all of our busyness for our partner in all of their busyness and bringing it all together.

0:29:59.04 → 0:30:36.21

And it just so happens to work, I think, yeah, it might not feel sexy, but not having sex isn't sexy either. Well, here's the funny thing too, is a lot of people will tell us, oh, I just missed the early days of our relationship. It felt so easy, so effortless then. But if you really take a trip down memory lane and think about those early stages of a relationship, there is so much effort that goes into that stage. You're scheduling dates with each other, you're usually pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, trying to do new things on the date.

0:30:36.33 → 0:31:05.23

You're putting your best foot forward, trying to present the best version of yourself to your partner. Even practical things like when Xander and I were dating, I could spend hours getting ready for the date, like getting myself so excited. So it's not that we have these magical days where there was zero effort involved, it's that we had a very different attitude about the effort. We got excited about it back then versus now. We judge ourselves for having to put in even the tiniest little scrap of effort.

0:31:05.31 → 0:31:49.16

Yeah, totally. And I think that tendency to just look at the early days with very rose coloured glasses, and it's not to detract from that at all, because, as we've said, there is something really lovely about that initial stage of a relationship. But I guess it's just like honouring that for what it is, while finding a way to see the more mature version of the relationship as an opportunity to go deeper, rather than like, oh, we've just lost that spark. And we just have to make our peace with that and kind of live out our days in this mediocre, lacklustre version of what we once were. So maybe next we can go.

0:31:49.18 → 0:32:28.68

I know we've still got two sex conversations, sex talks left, but what are the fourth and fifth conversation that we haven't yet covered? Or if there's more that you want to say on connection and desire? Yeah, we can go into number four, that's pleasure, fun one. What do we each need to feel good, to have a satisfying and pleasurable experience? And that one is another great one where so many of us feel this pressure to be amazing in bed, to be the best our partner has ever had, but a lot of us have never talked to each other about, well, what does good sex even mean to you?

0:32:28.81 → 0:33:20.81

So there's some really great conversations within that chapter all about starting to talk about it more openly and even exploring for yourself. What is it that brings you pleasure? Pleasure is a really interesting one in that a lot of people who come to us asking about low libido or like, low desire, what we find is that very often one of the main reasons that you don't have a very high sex drive, you don't think about sex very often, you don't want it. Very often is because the sex that you're having is not particularly pleasurable. Why would you be craving something that is not very enjoyable, or even worse, something that feels like a chore, something you have to have to take off, something that feels like it's more about your partner's pleasure than your own?

0:33:20.88 → 0:34:05.03

So the exciting part about this conversation is the opportunity it presents to really transform things in your sex life and also for yourself in terms of your own desire. Yeah, you touched on something there that I'd love to kind of go into, which is that tendency. I don't think it's exclusively gendered, but it's probably there's a lot of that, the tendency to focus on your partner's sexual experience and kind of ignore your own. And I think that the corollary of that is a real difficulty in receiving discomfort, in receiving it's. Like, I'm just so accustomed to being focused on ensuring you're having a good time that I actually don't feel comfortable with anything other than that.

0:34:05.07 → 0:34:24.15

Even if my partner was willing and wanting to focus on my pleasure, I don't really know what to do with that. It feels very exposing and vulnerable. Is that something that you guys see a lot? And what kind of advice would you give to people who struggle with receiving sexually. We see this all the time and it's also something that I've struggled with personally.

0:34:24.20 → 0:35:12.43

I share my story in the book about that. I struggled with orgasming with a partner for many, many years and I faked every single orgasm because I was so much more focused on my partner's experience on is my partner having a good time? I want to make sure it seems like things are clicking between the two of us that I don't seem too hard in the bedroom. I'm easy breezy and I think this is something that, like you said, it's not just limited to women, but as women, we are really socialised to be caretakers, caregivers, to put other people's needs before our own, so it's easier for us to slip into that role. And also compounding things is the way that we see sex depicted in the media.

0:35:12.50 → 0:35:51.99

Sex between a man and a woman is very focused on male pleasure. So it leaves so many of us women feeling broken because we feel like, god, I'm not getting a tonne of pleasure, I'm not having orgasms from this. Something must be wrong with me, so let me just fake it so my partner doesn't think anything's wrong with him. So yeah, it's definitely a really big issue that comes up for so many women. And that's one of the reasons why we're so excited about this conversation in particular, because we talk about the orgasm gap that's happening in male female relationships and we lay it out just in a very straightforward, matter of fact kind of way.

0:35:52.03 → 0:36:15.63

So there's no blaming of anybody in here. It's not like, oh yeah, the guys really need to fix this and they're doing a terrible job and you should feel ashamed of yourself or anything like that. It's just, hey, here's the reality of how female bodies and pleasure really work. Here are some of the challenges that we women come up against when it comes to being present and letting ourselves receive in the bedroom. And we talk about that.

0:36:15.67 → 0:36:36.22

A lot of male partners genuinely want their female partner to enjoy the experience. So it's just laid out in a really nice way that couples can read together and it takes the shame away from it while also giving you the information you need to start having sex. It's about both of your pleasure. Yeah. And I think it's so important as well for a lot of women.

0:36:36.67 → 0:37:01.11

There's probably some mindset work to do there around, like taking up the space and not feeling guilty or burdensome or that they're not going to enjoy it. So I just like the classic, I'm taking too long. And that's just such a surefire way to go into your head and out of your body, which tends to exacerbate it, right? Yeah. And that's a great story to cheque with your partner.

0:37:01.21 → 0:37:49.52

You could say to your partner, I have this story that I am too difficult in the bedroom or that if I were to allow you to focus on me, that you would get bored or resentful of me. Ask your partner that and see the response that you get because it's going to be very different from what you're fearing in your head. Yeah, because if I'm thinking about it right now, if I'm just asking myself what makes truly great sex, what first comes to mind for me is it's not about doing an act or doing the right sequence of moves. It's like I want to have an experience where I'm seeing my partner really, really enjoying things and feeling as good as possible. And we're both feeling really good.

0:37:49.57 → 0:38:11.53

We're both having a great time. I derive so much of my own enjoyment of sex out of the enjoyment that I see my partner having. It's not like, oh, I'm just in it for an orgasm at all. And so I think that that's so valuable to be able to cheque with each other. Like, what is it that we're actually looking for out of sex?

0:38:11.87 → 0:39:04.45

I think for most people, it's just that real, honest, mutual enjoyment. And I think another big piece in that is getting to know your own body. Because a lot of the time it's like, again, this expectation of that should all just be obvious or that my partner should know. And I think it is really hard to talk about sex, to ask for things if you don't really know what you like, what feels good, what doesn't. And so I think that in cultivating that sexual confidence, getting to know yourself sexually can really help you to feel like you've kind of a bit more prepared for that rather than a total beginner on your own body, expecting your partner to kind of have it all figured out for you.

0:39:04.54 → 0:39:33.98

Absolutely. And this is another way that the deck really gets stacked against us. Women, when we talk about masturbation in particular, men are really given much more permission around that there's a kind of like, oh, boys will be boys type of thing. But female masturbation is very looked down upon and so many women grow up feeling deeply ashamed. So we talk to women all the time who have never masturbated, have never even looked at what their genitals look like.

0:39:34.08 → 0:40:09.61

And so we are robbed of that opportunity to explore our own bodies, to discover what we like and what makes us feel good. The good news is that it's never too late to start doing this exploration. And sometimes getting yourself fired up about that crappy socialisation that we received can be a great motivator. Like, yeah, I've been robbed of this opportunity for so many years of my life and I don't want to waste another second. I don't want to let another moment go by where I feel like I'm not allowed to explore and to enjoy my own body.

0:40:09.81 → 0:40:39.98

And then on the flip side of all of that the deck has also been stacked against men in terms of the stories we get about sex, of feeling like we're supposed to be really good at it, we're supposed to be the leaders when it comes to sex. We're supposed to know somehow better than our partner does. If you're in a male female relationship, I think the stereotype or the story is like, it's all about giving her an orgasm rather than somehow both of you doing it together.

0:40:43.71 → 0:41:13.71

Guys talk to each other about like, oh, did you make her come? That kind of language. So it feels like, oh, well, this is what I'm supposed to be able to do. And I think a lot of men end up thinking, okay, well, I think I figured out what this one partner needed, and therefore that must be what all women need. And then you go into your next relationship doing that same thing, and if it's not working, it can feel like, oh my God, what's wrong with me?

0:41:13.75 → 0:41:41.00

And so it's just yeah, the story is never like, hey, every partner is different. When you start having sex, it's an amazing opportunity to get to know each other. It's like you get to start from scratch every single time. But instead we feel like, oh, we're supposed to take all this knowledge and these tools that we have from our past relationships and be really good. And the reality is, there's no such thing as being objectively good in bed.

0:41:41.05 → 0:42:18.67

Everybody is different, and we all need different things. Yeah, I think a person who's good in bed or a person who's sexually confident is a person who's willing to be vulnerable and have the conversations and do that messy work of fumbling through it and kind of allowing ourselves to be in that without being stuck in the rigidity of the sexual perfectionism that would have us believe that we're just meant to already know. So what's the fifth conversation? The fifth conversation is, what should we try next? Exploration is the name that we put on it.

0:42:18.76 → 0:42:50.33

So we've all heard the advice to try new things in the bedroom, and it actually is good advice. Research has found that when we try new things inside and outside of the bedroom with our partner, it just lights our brains up. It creates that sense of the spark of things feeling fresh and exciting, getting to see your partner in a new light, kind of like it did right at the beginning of your relationship, when you're pretty much only doing new things together. But when it comes to trying new things in the bedroom, a lot of us get very self conscious. It's like, I don't know what to try.

0:42:50.42 → 0:43:17.59

I don't even know what the options are to this conversation. We give you the options. One of the exercises in the conversation, it's like a huge list of possible things that you could try with your partner, and some of them are very small things, but even those small little changes or Tweaks can have a big difference. So we give you the options and we walk you through how to actually try new things in the bedroom without activating that sexual profession. Nice.

0:43:17.63 → 0:43:36.59

And I think that, again, comes back to this thing of like, oh my God, I don't want to look like an idiot. And it's so bizarre, isn't it? That our partner who sees us all day, every day, particularly if you're in a long term relationship. I love I can't remember exactly what you called it, but that like inhibition, the inhibition of sex. Yeah.

0:43:36.63 → 0:44:51.56

That the longer we're in it, the smaller we get in our sexual expression and really actively fostering the opposite arc so that we can be like, no. The more safety we create, the more we get to expand and grow and explore in our sexuality and really, like, creating the container for that to be the status quo in our relationship. And I think it is one of those things that feels really scary at first and then every time we have the conversation, it gets a little bit less scary and we get a little bit more comfortable with it. So it's like you just kind of have to take a deep breath and have that conversation the first time and you may have to fumble your way through it a few times, but just trusting that it's probably not going to be as scary as it feels like it's going to be. And I think arming yourself with all of this knowledge that can make it feel a bit less personal and a bit less hopeless going into it with those tools and that awareness that allows you to be optimistic and pragmatic and practical and, like, okay, maybe this isn't irreparably broken and there are things that we can do about it.

0:44:51.61 → 0:45:20.38

And I think taking solace in the fact that this is something that the vast majority of people struggle with to varying degrees at varying points in their relationship. There are very few couples who are just living that fairytale version of sex where everything works and never tapers and never fizzles. So rest assured that you're not alone in that. And it will take a bit of courage to have the conversations, but can really reap the rewards. Yeah.

0:45:20.40 → 0:46:07.54

And that was why it was so important to us to go first and be very vulnerable. In the book, we shared so many stories of things that went awry in the bedroom for us, of times that we struggled and felt like we were on different pages just to help people know you're so not alone. It's very normal, it's very common to struggle with sex, to struggle with that connection, with keeping that intimacy alive. But the good news is that with the conversations in the book, with these very practical tools that we share, you can absolutely recreate that feeling of closeness and get it even deeper and more intimate than you ever thought it could be. And I mean, even though Vanessa and I have had all these conversations, and we continue to have these conversations, our sex life is by no means perfect.

0:46:08.47 → 0:46:59.64

We still mess some of these things up, we still make mistakes and we realise that we've made a mistake and we loop back around and try to repair that. But I think the difference is when you are having these types of conversations and sex becomes a safe topic of conversation, yeah, you're going to screw up, things are going to go awry, your bodies are not machines. Like, nothing goes perfectly. But the difference is that now, when something goes weird or wrong or whatever, it's something that we can look back at and laugh about. It's something that we feel we feel more connected after sort of a sex mishap or something like that, versus when you don't have these conversations and it feels like, oh my God, that was so embarrassing.

0:46:59.67 → 0:47:29.45

It's this big, heavy thing that we can't acknowledge. So that's really the key with these conversations, is like, just turning sex into a fun topic instead of a scary topic. Yeah, totally. And I think that's kind of like, what we all want, ultimately, is for sex to feel light and playful and exciting and not this big, heavy, scary, dense, shame riddled thing. And I mean, yeah, my partner and I have been doing one of your courses, your Better Hot and More course.

0:47:29.52 → 0:48:12.03

So I can absolutely vouch for all of these tools and again, to kind of vulnerably share and normalise that it's okay to have to actively work on these things. And it doesn't matter who you are or what, you know, intellectually when it comes down to the actual being in relationship, we've all got work to do. And that's not something to be ashamed of. So is there anything to wrap up that you'd like to share? I just want the listeners to know, like I just said, that whatever challenges or struggles you're having in your sex life, you are definitely not alone.

0:48:12.13 → 0:48:44.41

And it's really this lack of conversation that has set all of us up for failures. That the decks stacked the decks against all of us, but that it is so possible to create the intimacy that you've always been wanting. And we hope that having these conversations will feel really fun and connecting for you. Where can everyone find you, obviously, on Instagram, your book and your courses. If they want to go deeper on Instagram, they can find us at Vanessa and Xander.

0:48:44.46 → 0:48:58.12

We show up in stories every day. We love hanging out there. Shoot us a DM. Let us know that you found out about us through this podcast. And then all of our guides and courses are@vmtherapy.com that's our website.

0:48:58.57 → 0:49:23.61

We love getting into the nitty gritty aspects of sex that nobody really talks about. So we have that better, hotter, more class that you mentioned. Then we have guides like our foreplay guides and next Level intercourse that really guide you through exactly what to do and when and challenges and all that kind of stuff. And then, of course, you can get the book@sextalksbook.com. We have a link there to all the different retailers.

0:49:23.69 → 0:49:50.77

And then if you want a free workbook that goes along with the book, just come back to that page, fill out step two after you've ordered, and we'll send you a free workbook so that you can go even deeper. Amazing. And I will link all of that in the show notes. Guys, thank you so much. This has been hugely valuable and I'm sure that everyone listening is going to have gotten a lot out of it and feel hopefully a lot more optimistic about the future of their sex life and what's possible.

0:49:50.86 → 0:49:55.18

So thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having us. Thank you.

0:49:58.19 → 0:50:20.80

Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.

Why Healthy Relationships Can Feel Boring

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

In today's episode, I'm answering the question of why healthy relationships can feel boring - especially if you're someone who's accustomed to drama and chaos in your love life.

WHAT WE COVER:

• why unhealthy relationships are so addictive

• the principle of intermittent reinforcement 

• how to navigate discomfort around stable relationships

• how to get your needs for novelty & excitement met in a healthy way without sabotaging your relationship

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.41 → 0:00:41.76

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge, and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I am going to be answering the question of why healthy relationships can sometimes feel boring, particularly if you've not had many healthy relationships.

0:00:41.79 → 0:01:20.04

And so you're coming into maybe your first ever healthy, stable, secure relationship after a string of really dysfunctional, turbulent, unhealthy relationships. This is something that a lot of people experience. There can be this almost unsettling discomfort of being in a relationship where there's no drama and chaos. And we can either feel that as a form of low level anxiety or maybe a loss of attraction or kind of disinterest in our partner because they're so stable and reliable and available to us and we're used to chasing someone who isn't. So there's lots to unpack there, and I'm going to be talking about that today.

0:01:20.65 → 0:02:07.34

Why unhealthy relationships can be so addictive. Even though it's ostensibly the opposite of what we say we want, there's something within us that chases that drama and that inconsistency, and that unpredictability. And what you can do if you do find yourself kind of uncomfortable with a healthy, stable relationship, rather than just pulling away or sabotaging it because it feels unfamiliar to you, I'm going to be offering some tips for you to hopefully get through those growing pains so that you can continue with and maybe not let go of the healthy relationship that you've worked so hard to find. That's what I'm going to be talking about today before I dive into that. Just sharing the featured review for this episode, which is I'm so thankful my friend sent me this podcast.

0:02:07.40 → 0:02:19.35

It's so nice to be more aware of why you feel and react to certain people and situations. Thank you so much for sharing all of this information. I'm forever grateful. Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I really appreciate it.

0:02:19.42 → 0:03:12.57

If that was your review, you can send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com, and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around why healthy relationships might feel boring. And I think that the best starting point for explaining this is to flip it around and go, why are unhealthy relationships sometimes so addictive? This is something that a lot of people will relate to. And certainly for a period of time, I found myself very much in that hamster wheel of chasing someone who was very inconsistent, very unreliable, very unavailable, and yet there was something extremely addictive about continuing to try and seek and chase.

0:03:13.39 → 0:04:08.36

And I think that a really important concept to understand in this is the concept of intermittent reinforcement. I've probably spoken about this once or twice on the show before, but for anyone who's not familiar with the term intermittent reinforcement, this comes from behavioural science, behavioural psychology, and it's basically a premise behind gambling machines, all sorts. Of addictive patterns, which is if you do not know when you are going to get rewarded, you will keep trying and trying and trying to do the thing that might elicit the reward because you never know when you're going to get it. Whereas if you know that every fifth time you do the thing, that's when you'll get your reward and that's very stable and predictable or even every one time you do it, then eventually you kind of get bored of trying. Whereas when you don't know and there's this level of unpredictability, you keep trying and trying.

0:04:08.41 → 0:04:42.83

That's why people spend all of their money on slot machines is because the next spin could be the one that I win. It's completely unpredictable. So I'll just go one more, one more, one more. It absolutely capitalises on our dopamine system which is all about pursuit and the pursuit of more of this thing that could be rewarding. So as applied to relationships, and particularly inconsistent relationships, we can see why chasing after someone who gives us intermittent reward and intermittent reinforcement becomes so addictive.

0:04:42.96 → 0:05:36.83

And most of the time when we're in an unhealthy relationship, it is not unhealthy and bad. 100% of the time there will be times and moments where this person shows up and you are connected and you do feel good and you laugh together or you are intimate or whatever, something that feels rewarding about that dynamic. But then all of a sudden it'll be gone and they'll be angry or you'll be fighting or whatever. But there's this sense of I don't know when the reward is going to come and sometimes when I behave in this way it works and other times it doesn't. And so I'll just keep trying and trying and trying and trying and because that is so dopamine fueled and it's so addictive that intermittent reinforcement, we can get really trained to seek that and expect that and associate that with relationships.

0:05:36.88 → 0:06:29.59

And that is a real hamster wheel, it's a real roller coaster that keeps us at this elevated level of stress and striving in our relationships. If we then take that away and we enter into a relationship with someone who is stable and predictable and reliable and we don't have to work really hard and we don't have to guess and we don't have to play all of those games. Our system can kind of be in a bit of disarray because we are used to operating up here. And all of a sudden, all of that energy that we're used to expending in our relationships doesn't really have anywhere to go. And there's a part of us that's uncomfortable without all of that chaos and drama because we kind of trained our body and our nervous system to expect it and to be primed for it and to actually get something out of it.

0:06:29.63 → 0:06:40.25

Because when we do get the reward, even when it's very intermittently, it feels so good. In fact, it feels even better for the fact that it's so unpredictable.

0:06:43.09 → 0:07:48.30

Again, to use the slot machine analogy, if you do win, even if it's $5 and you're down $200, it is so exciting and exhilarating and lights you up to have won $5 and you lose sight of the fact that you have lost $200, right? It's the same principle. If the person who you're in this really unhealthy relationship dynamic with is dismissive of you 95% of the time, but then brings you flowers, one day those flowers are going to feel like the most incredible thing in the world because they're so out of the ordinary, and you never really know when you're going to get something like that. So when that is the backdrop, going into a relationship with someone who's really stable is probably going to feel disconcerting, at least to certain parts of you that are used to working really, really hard to get kind of basic needs met to get basic recognition, basic connection. So I think having conscious awareness of this is a really, really important first step, as is always the case, right?

0:07:48.40 → 0:08:22.46

No matter what our pattern is, if we are not consciously aware of it, we are just going to be blindly acting from a wounded place, from a kind of subconscious protective place. And then we're going to wonder why we keep repeating patterns and we're not where we say we want to be. That's because we're not acting from a conscious place. So the place we consciously want to be, like that part of us just isn't in the driver's seat of our experience. So when we can get curious and go, I notice that maybe I'm not even attracted to healthy people in the first place.

0:08:22.91 → 0:08:56.12

And I think that's the case for a lot of people. You might have heard me say before, I always correct people's question when they ask me, like, why do I attract unhealthy people? And I think we really have to ask ourselves, why am I attracted to unhealthy people? And that is a much more honest and self responsible question and one that we actually have power over. Why am I attracted to what part of me seeks out people who fit a certain mould, who are inconsistent or unreliable or unavailable to me in some way?

0:08:56.65 → 0:09:33.80

What do I get out of participating in those dynamics? Because if we don't know the answer to that, that subconscious part of us that does get something out of it is going to keep running the show. So getting really curious going, what do I get out of this? What part of me prefers the chaos and the drama and feeling like I need to work really, really hard to get my connection needs met and feeling a sense of victory or worthiness when that unavailable person shows up for me. And spoiler alert, oftentimes this has origins in our family system or in earlier relationships.

0:09:33.83 → 0:10:29.60

It's very rare that it is born of the situation that you're kind of reenacting it in, but bringing conscious awareness to that and going, okay, what part of me needs my attention there? Rather than just going, oh, this healthy person, I'm not attracted to them, therefore they must not be a good fit and I'll break up with them and then I'll go into a pat and repeat with that other person. Right? So I think we do really need to become aware of that and decide which part of me do I want driving the bus here in my relationships, my wounded parts, or my wise adult self who knows what I truly want and knows what I deserve and what's best for me. So if you do find yourself in this situation where you're in a healthy relationship and it feels boring or it feels disconcerting or unsettling in some way, I think there are a few things to remind yourself of.

0:10:29.70 → 0:11:16.94

One is that stability and predictability and reliability is not always terribly exciting. And I think that we don't have to resign ourselves to the fact that our relationship is going to feel boring forever and ever and we just have to accept that. But I do think we have to manage our expectations around the fact that comfort and stability and cosiness and safety are not always the most exhilarating and exciting of experiences. And recognising the benefits to that to that stability and that safety and really allowing ourselves to be nourished by it again, particularly if that has not been your experience in the past. It might feel uncomfortable at first, but it is probably the medicine that you don't realise you desperately need to just be able to rest in that safety and security.

0:11:17.01 → 0:12:11.28

That's probably going to be a really healing experience for you. With that being said, I think we can also acknowledge if we are someone who values excitement or adventure or any of those other kinds of qualities in a relationship, those are things that we can deliberately cultivate. We don't just have to feel like we've given up because a relationship is healthy and cosy and comfortable and that necessarily has to come at the cost of excitement. But I think that distinguishing excitement and adventure and novelty from drama and intensity and chaos is an important distinction to make. So if you do value those things, figuring out for yourself what a healthy expression of that kind of energy looks like, rather than just defaulting back into the chaos and the drama that you know so well, but that is also really costly to your system and is not a nice pattern to keep spinning around in.

0:12:11.46 → 0:12:59.27

So what could be examples of things that would inject and infuse some excitement and maybe even passion into my relationships, but not with this undertone of turbulence or anything that feels like it's injecting insecurity into my system. Because that's an easy place to gravitate back towards when it is our familiar. But it's likely to be an unhealthy pattern, repeat rather than what we truly need in order to heal those wounded parts of us. So I hope that that has been helpful in answering the question of why healthy relationships can feel a little bit uncomfortable or boring, particularly if that's new to you to have a healthy relationship. But as I said, stick it out.

0:12:59.34 → 0:13:33.43

Definitely don't run at the first sign of discomfort. All relationships are going to have growing pains, and ending a relationship because it feels too safe and secure is probably not a great idea. So stick it out. See how you go. And if you do really miss that sense of excitement and rush and exhilaration, try and find healthier and more adaptive ways to consciously cultivate those dynamics within your healthy relationship, rather than going and seeking chaos and drama elsewhere to get that sugar hit.

0:13:33.52 → 0:13:48.92

So I hope that that's been helpful. If you enjoyed this episode, as always, I'd love for you to subscribe, leave a review, leave a rating. It all helps so much in continuing to spread the word about the podcast. Otherwise, I look forward to seeing you for our episode next week. Thanks, guys.

0:13:50.17 → 0:14:12.30

Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg.com or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thank again for being here, and I hope to see you again soon.

How to Leave a Relationship (When You Know You Need To)

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In this episode, we're talking about how to leave a relationship from the perspective of knowing that you need to. Break-ups are hard - no matter the circumstances - and most of the advice tends to be directed toward people who've been broken up with, rather than those doing the breaking up.

WHAT WE COVER:

• why waiting for the "right time" is an illusion

• how to support yourself as you prepare for a break-up

• grappling with guilt around hurting someone

• how to cultivate healthy boundaries throughout the break-up

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.41 → 0:00:24.96

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here.

0:00:28.97 → 0:00:52.20

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's episode is how to leave a relationship when you know you need to. So this was a question that I got from someone in my community. And as much as it's a big conversation, it's a messy conversation, and it's a conversation that's going to have a huge number of variables that are obviously very personal.

0:00:52.33 → 0:01:33.81

I think it's also a really important conversation, and it's one that I know when I was in this situation a few years ago, I really could have used some guidance on this because I know I felt very alone and very confused and very overwhelmed by knowing that I needed to do this thing, but not knowing how I was actually going to do it. And that can be really paralysing. And I think we can get really stuck there and really just the whole thing gets very drawn out and can be longer and more painful than it needs to be. Because maybe we don't trust ourselves. Maybe we don't trust in our own resilience, in our capacity to navigate difficult things.

0:01:33.98 → 0:02:25.59

Or we just feel so overwhelmed by the task ahead and the road ahead that we shrink and we freeze and we don't actually do the thing we know we need to do. So I'm hoping that in today's conversation, while there will be a lot of caveats and a lot of reminders that this is not universal advice and it's not going to be a one size fits all thing, and it's certainly not a prescriptive blueprint for the steps you need to take in every situation. I'm hoping that what we'll discuss will give you some guidance and some reassurance and some support if this is a situation that you're in or someone in your life is in, and you're in need of a little bit of help along the way, so that's what we're going to be talking about. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. Just a reminder that I'm now accepting applications for my Homecoming Mastermind programme.

0:02:25.79 → 0:02:58.13

This is a six month, small group coaching programme. With me, it's the most intimate and high level way to work with me. It involves weekly 90 minutes calls. With me, we cover the whole gamut of everything you could imagine and it really is a beautiful space. It's a way to not only connect with me and work with me directly, but to make beautiful friendships and really experience that community that I think so many of us crave and long for, but maybe don't know where to find.

0:02:58.33 → 0:03:43.56

It is really powerful for that, because you're guaranteed to be in this space of like minded people on a similar path. So I really encourage you, if that's something that appeals, to cheque out the details on my website and submit an application if you feel that it might be for you. The next cohort begins in July, but I am accepting applications now and we do have an extended payment plan and early bird offer for those who apply before the end of the month. The second quick announcement is just to share the featured review, which is I thought that I understood attachment theory from reading a few books and listening to a few podcasts, but Stephanie takes this way, way deeper. The insights and guidance here turns the theory into a heartfelt path for growth and healing.

0:03:43.67 → 0:04:07.89

In just a few episodes, I'm already seeing a bunch of blind spots I hadn't acknowledged in myself and just as importantly, the path to heal them. Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I really, really appreciate it. I think that what you describe is really owing to the fact that the vast majority of the things I'm speaking about are not things that I've picked up in a book. They are lived experiences.

0:04:07.94 → 0:04:52.76

And I think that, as in all cases, there is a level of depth and resonance that we get from hearing something from someone who's experienced it and feeling that sense of deep knowing of what the thing feels like, rather than just what it looks like on the outside. So I'm so glad that you've had that experience and that it's helping you on your way to doing the work and growing into a more secure version of yourself. So thank you for the kind words and if you want to send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com, my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes. Okay, right, let's get into this. Let's talk how to leave a relationship when you know you need to.

0:04:52.89 → 0:05:33.72

Okay, so I think it's important to acknowledge at the outset that oftentimes we do have this period when a relationship is coming to an end. It's rare that we have a light bulb moment of going, oh, I know, I need to leave, and then we blurt it out to our partner and that's the end of it. We pack our bags and off we go. Very rarely is it that quick and clean and neat and certain. I think it would be fair to say that in many cases, the majority of cases, there is a period preceding the breakup where one or both people are feeling like they know it's coming.

0:05:34.25 → 0:06:22.20

And maybe that period is characterised by a gradual kind of disentangling, disconnecting disengaging from the connection and the intimacy in a way that feels almost like a fade out or a slow burn. And I think that while that can be carried out in better ways and worse ways, I don't know that it's necessarily a problem to be solved. I think it's just something to acknowledge that oftentimes going through that process is a protective mechanism. That means that by the time we get to the breakup, we've already come to terms with it to some degree emotionally. We've started to do the emotional processing and the grieving before we've actually pulled the trigger on ending the relationship.

0:06:22.57 → 0:07:27.61

With that being said, I think that for people who are in this situation of knowing they need to leave, but maybe feeling like they don't know how to leave or they feel so overwhelmed by the how, even if you've started to do the emotional disentangling and the emotional disengaging, there can be so many layers of overwhelm and stress and anxiety and worry and doubt and guilt and all of these other things that make this a really sticky place to be. So if you are in that situation, I really just want to acknowledge that and say, I've been there and I know how hard it is for context. I was in a relationship for three and a half years that I think I pretty much knew I needed to end it and leave from the day I got into the relationship. It was really never healthy, and a part of me really knew that. But I was so attached to trying and trying to fix it and trying to change it and trying to change him that it took me that long to actually come to terms with it and ultimately make a plan and pull the trigger and leave.

0:07:27.76 → 0:08:00.02

So I've been there and I get that it's hard and it's messy. So maybe the first piece of advice is just be really kind to yourself and give yourself a lot of grace because this is not an easy situation to be in. I do also want to say at the outset, and this is an important caveat to our conversation, I am not speaking about abusive situations here. And if you are in that situation, I really encourage you to seek out support, seek out help. I'm really speaking to people who are in a broadly safe relationship, but one that they know they need to leave.

0:08:00.15 → 0:08:26.41

Okay, so let's dive into these tips for the how of leaving a relationship when you know you need to. The first piece of advice that I want to offer you is there'll probably never be a great time to do this. And maybe that's not very encouraging advice, but I think it's honest advice. Life is messy, life is complicated, life is busy. Again, I know for me that there were so many reasons to just delay on doing this thing, right.

0:08:26.45 → 0:09:19.07

It was, oh, we've got that holiday booked, or oh, there's this other social event coming up, or Ridiculous things, right? In hindsight, when it was me knowing I was going to end the relationships or what does it matter if we have a social event next month? That it's amazing what our brain will do and cling to as a reason not to do an uncomfortable thing. I think making our peace with the fact that any time is not going to be a great time or it's not necessarily going to be a better time than now. And again, that doesn't mean that you have to do it today, but not continuing to delay or reaching for kind of silly, trivial reasons as to why now isn't a good time, but later will be, because when it gets round to being later, there'll be another reason why then isn't a good time either.

0:09:19.22 → 0:09:40.43

So I think that starting to make the decision that you're going to do this imminently. Again, this is for people who've already made the decision that they want to do it. So I just want to keep reminding people of that, but decide, okay, this is what I'm doing. Not like, oh yeah, I know I need to do that at some point. It's like, no, this is what I'm doing.

0:09:40.60 → 0:09:58.12

And then we move to the next piece of advice, which is make a plan. Okay? When your system is in a state of overwhelm and feeling a lot of stress. So very quick nervous system 101. And if you've listened to other podcast episodes that done my courses on this, you'll know what I'm talking about.

0:09:58.25 → 0:10:31.34

When we're in our sympathetic nervous system and we're in that energy of fight or flight and we're anxious and we're stressed and there's a lot of mobilisation energy, it's like, okay, I need to do something. If we get to a point where that gets too much, then we can go into this overwhelmed place. So either that can take us into total shutdown into our dorsal vagal complex, or we might go into a freeze response, which is a mix of both. So it's like, I have all of this stuff to do, but I can't do anything because I'm so overwhelmed. And so we end up really stuck.

0:10:31.45 → 0:10:59.47

And I know for me, when I was in this situation, I would just bounce between those all the time. I was either really actively stressed about it or just in total overwhelm and immobilised and I didn't know where to begin. So I just did nothing for months and months and years and years. Right? So now in hindsight and I worked with my therapist at the time about this, it was like, your nervous system needs a plan.

0:10:59.62 → 0:11:16.48

Okay? So it's like, okay, where am I going to go? That was an important plan for me because my partner and I lived together. It's like there was no way my body and my nervous system was ever going to feel safe in saying, I'm leaving if I didn't know where I was going to go. So I made a plan on where I was going to go.

0:11:16.61 → 0:12:02.59

And that, again, took time and took some preparation. And depending on the circumstances you're in, depending on whether you have family or friends that you could go and stay with. Depending on your financial position, you might need to give yourself a bit of lead time to get to the point where you have a solid actionable plan or if you have your own place, obviously this would be easier or if your partner would be the one to move out, this would be easier. But make a plan that speaks to whatever situation you're in that allows your nervous system to feel a bit more supported and comforted. Because if it's just this experience of stepping out into the void of saying like, I think we need to break up and I have no idea what my life looks like on the other side of that.

0:12:02.71 → 0:12:50.45

For a lot of people, that is going to be too overwhelming and too much and it's going to throw you into that kind of frozen, immobilised response where you aren't able to act and you aren't really able to make decisions or support yourself. So for a lot of people having some sort of plan in place, even if it's a transitional plan, even if it's just what will I do for the first month or something like that? How will I support myself? That is going to be really helpful in giving you greater clarity and confidence that you will be okay, that you're not stepping off the ledge and into the unknown and into the void. That leads nicely into my next piece of advice, which is seek out the support of people who you trust, who love you and care about you.

0:12:50.52 → 0:13:41.82

So again, to use myself as an example, I am someone who is not very good at letting people in on the problem until I've solved it. So for me it was like, okay, I'll tell my friends and family that I'm thinking of leaving this relationship, but only once I've figured out all the answers and made sure that everything's fine. And that is a big part of my work, is allowing myself to be supported by people. And I suspect that if you're listening, I know that many of my listeners are very much like me in many ways and can relate to a lot of the things that I have struggled with and have experienced. So if you are someone who tends to put on a brave face and you're used to supporting others, but you're not used to really letting people see you and your vulnerability, you're not used to asking for and receiving support or help, maybe you don't want to be a burden.

0:13:41.88 → 0:14:15.43

Maybe you don't want the attention. Maybe you are worried to let them in on something like leaving your relationship. I know for me part of it was I don't want to tell my family and friends that this is where I'm at and what I'm thinking of doing because what if I change my mind? And then that's really uncomfortable for me that they know that about my situation. And then all of these things, right, that we just can get ourselves really stuck in and block ourselves from seeking and receiving the support that we really do know we need.

0:14:15.52 → 0:15:06.92

And for me, it was only in finally taking that step of opening up and being vulnerable and sharing with people where I was at and what I was thinking and what I was needing that I was able to get that support. And ultimately sharing, that was a big part of being able to make a proper plan because my ability to plan out my next move on my own was really inhibited. So in letting people in, in letting people support me, that also really helped me with making a plan that I felt safe and comfortable with. So the next piece of advice is a hard one, but prepare yourself for the fact that your partner may be really upset and that's okay. I think a lot of the time it will depend so much on the tone of the relationship and a million other factors.

0:15:06.98 → 0:15:41.54

But part of our resistance to pulling the trigger is the guilt and the fear about the other person not being okay and feeling like we are the cause of their sadness or their sense of grief and loss. And we don't know how to hold that guilt. We don't know how to hold that sense of responsibility for someone else's big emotions. And so we don't do it. We prioritise their emotions and their desires and their well being above what we know we need to do for ourselves.

0:15:41.68 → 0:16:28.39

And while that's again very understandable and something I've grappled with myself and I know a lot of other people do, the reality is that breakups suck and they're sad and it sucks to be broken up with. And that's a really, really bad reason to stay with someone both for you and for them. If it were you, you wouldn't want someone to stay with you just so you weren't upset about it. So I think we have to, of course, conduct ourselves with respect and care and kindness in dealing with our partner as we move through that process and always trying to behave with integrity. But we can't take responsibility for making sure that they are okay and that they're not upset and that they're not hurt and all of that, right?

0:16:28.43 → 0:16:57.66

We can't be their emotional support person through the breakup. So preparing yourself for the fact that they may well be really upset, they may well plead with you and beg you and whatever else, but that's not on you. You can explain to them where you're at. You can be loving and kind and you can hold the boundary. That leads me to my last piece of advice, which is boundaries, right?

0:16:57.68 → 0:17:25.75

This is a broader piece. You will really need strong boundaries in that process throughout and post breakup. And again, this is hard if you've not got great boundaries as a starting point, if that's still a growth edge for you. But please know, I mean, I get questions from people all the time, like what do I do? My ex keeps asking me to talk or My ex isn't accepting the breakup or any number of other things.

0:17:25.87 → 0:18:17.00

And the answer is always boundaries, right? You're not beholden to someone just because they want something from you or they're upset with you or angry at you or demanding this of you. I know it's really uncomfortable, particularly if it's someone that we care about, but that can't be the deciding factor in what you do with your life. And so having really clear strong boundaries, whether that's saying to someone, I would really appreciate if you'd stop messaging me, or I don't want us to talk for the next X period of time while we're figuring this out. Or to the extent that you do need to talk about logistical things, really keeping it to that, but putting a clear line in place around going into the trenches of dredging everything up emotionally, whatever it is.

0:18:17.05 → 0:18:57.78

But you need to get clear around what boundaries need to be in place in order for this to be sustainable for you, in order for you to feel clear and confident in the decision that you've made and really support yourself through that. Because that is your number one job through the breakup and beyond, is to support yourself first. Your job is not to be the emotional support person to your partner or your ex partner at some future point in time. And again, that might be a real paradigm shift for you if you are used to being the caretaker of someone else and their emotions and their feelings and making sure everyone else is okay. But this period is not about them, it's about you.

0:18:57.83 → 0:19:28.75

And they need to part of that healing process and that breathing process and that disentangling is that you need to resource yourselves separately and you need to seek support from other people and they need to seek support from other people rather than continuing to play that role for each other because that's just confusing and tends to extend all of the grief and the pain. So I hope that that's been helpful. A final word. This is challenging. As I've said multiple times in this episode, it's a hard situation to be in.

0:19:28.79 → 0:20:00.14

But I think the overarching piece of advice is just trust yourself. Trust in your decision if that's the decision you've made, trust that there's a part of you that knows what you need and what you need to do and trust that you'll be okay. Trust in your own resilience. Trust that you are so strong and capable and that you have a beautiful life ahead of you. And that if this is the point you've gotten to and this is the decision you made, that you will be okay and you'll be better than okay.

0:20:00.59 → 0:20:33.38

And that the road ahead is really bright and limitless in terms of the possibilities. So as much as it can feel like you're looking down a dark tunnel and everything is uncertain and unclear, and there's a lot of fear and doubt, as much as possible, trust that you are strong and capable and you will get through this. So I hope that that's been helpful. If you're in that situation, I'm sending you so much love. If someone in your life is in this situation and you think this episode could be helpful to them, please do share it.

0:20:33.43 → 0:20:37.08

But otherwise, I look forward to seeing you later in the week. Thanks, guys.

0:20:39.37 → 0:21:01.50

Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here, and I hope to see you again soon.

"Can a relationship between two anxiously attached people work?"

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

If you have an anxious attachment style, you’ve likely experienced the struggles of dating people with more avoidant attachment styles. You might find yourself constantly battling against differing needs and expectations around closeness and emotional intimacy. In contrast, anxiously attached people often crave a lot of time together, making the relationship a significant focus of their lives.

So, why don’t anxiously attached people just date each other? Wouldn’t it be easier to be with someone who has the same needs for connection, intimacy, and togetherness? It seems logical, but in reality, we rarely see anxious-anxious pairings. In this post, we’ll explore why this is the case, the dynamics that emerge when two anxiously attached people do come together, and why avoidant-avoidant relationships are also uncommon.

Why Opposites Attract in Relationships

For many people with anxious attachment, dating someone with avoidant tendencies feels familiar. While it’s not always easy, there’s a magnetic pull towards avoidant partners. This attraction often comes from our tendency to be drawn to people who possess traits that differ from our own.

An anxiously attached person who struggles with low self-worth and independence might find an avoidant partner’s independence, assertiveness, and confidence particularly appealing. On the flip side, an avoidant partner, who tends to suppress their emotional world, may be drawn to the emotional expressiveness and affection of someone with anxious attachment. This "opposites attract" dynamic plays a big role in why anxious and avoidant individuals often find themselves in relationships with each other.

The Rare Case of Anxious-Anxious Pairings

While it seems logical for two anxiously attached people to date, it rarely happens in practice. Even if it does, the dynamic often shifts over time. Here’s why:

1. Attraction to Avoidant Traits: As mentioned, anxiously attached individuals often feel a stronger attraction to people who possess qualities they themselves feel they lack, such as independence or emotional detachment. Therefore, they are less likely to be drawn to someone with the same anxious tendencies.

2. Emotional Saturation: In relationships where both partners are anxiously attached, the dynamic tends to recalibrate after some time. When both people want constant closeness, one partner may start feeling overwhelmed. The emotional intensity of the relationship can reach a point where one person begins to pull back, taking on a more avoidant role. It’s not that they suddenly become avoidant in a long-term sense, but within the context of this particular relationship, they may need to create space to balance the overwhelming closeness.

3. The Recalibration Effect: Relationships are dynamic systems, and partners often adjust to each other’s behaviors. In an anxious-anxious pairing, one person will usually lean towards avoidance to create a balance. When both people are "full throttle" with their emotional needs and demands for closeness, the relationship can feel unsustainable. As a result, one person pulls back, and the dynamic starts to resemble the anxious-avoidant pattern, but on a lesser scale.

Avoidant-Avoidant Relationships: Why They’re Uncommon

Just as anxious-anxious pairings are rare, avoidant-avoidant relationships are also uncommon. While it might seem like two avoidantly attached people would be an ideal match because they both value independence and emotional distance, these relationships often struggle to gain traction or deepen into emotional intimacy.

1. Lack of Emotional Glue: Avoidantly attached people typically find it difficult to connect deeply with their emotions and the emotions of others. In a relationship between two avoidants, this can lead to a lack of the emotional “glue” that bonds partners together. With both individuals keeping a distance, there’s little to anchor the relationship in terms of vulnerability or emotional closeness.

2. Difficulty with Commitment: Avoidant individuals often fear the vulnerability required for deep connection, which makes it hard to build and maintain a close, committed relationship. When both partners are avoidant, they might struggle to invest enough emotionally to keep the relationship alive, leading to stagnation or detachment over time.

3. The Anxious-Avoidant Dynamic Emerges: Similar to anxious-anxious pairings, avoidant-avoidant relationships may shift over time. As the relationship progresses, one partner might become more anxious in response to the ongoing emotional distance. For example, one partner might begin to feel abandoned or lonely, triggering a need for more connection. As a result, they may start acting in ways that resemble anxious attachment, while the other partner remains or becomes even more avoidant. This creates a new, albeit milder, version of the anxious-avoidant dynamic.

Is the Anxious-Avoidant Relationship Doomed?

While anxious-avoidant relationships are often seen as challenging, they aren’t inherently doomed. With the right awareness, skills, and a commitment to growth, these relationships can be healing. However, both partners need to be willing to understand their attachment styles and work towards healthy communication and emotional connection.

Anxious-anxious and avoidant-avoidant pairings, while uncommon, often shift into more familiar dynamics over time, with one partner leaning towards the opposite attachment style. This recalibration helps balance the relationship, though it can also lead to challenges if both partners don’t have the tools to navigate these shifts.

While it might seem easier for anxiously attached people to date each other or for avoidantly attached people to pair up, the reality is that we’re often drawn to partners with opposing traits. The attraction between anxious and avoidant individuals stems from our deeper needs and desires. Relationships, whether between anxious, avoidant, or mixed attachment styles, require awareness, communication, and commitment to working through the inevitable challenges that arise.

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.41 → 0:00:40.76

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Um, hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's episode is a Q and A episode and I'm answering the question of can a relationship between two anxiously attached people work?

0:00:41.29 → 0:01:51.43

So this is a question that I get quite a lot and I'm going to answer that question and also the alternative version of that, which is kind of relationship between two avoided people work, or why don't avoidant people tend to date each other and anxious people tend to date each other. So I think this is something that many people wonder, perhaps when they are or have been in an anxious avoidant dynamic and they experience the struggle of that opposition, of feeling like they need to compromise so heavily on their needs and preferences because they are in partnership with someone who has opposing needs and preferences. And so the logical solution seems to be, why don't I just find someone with the same needs and preferences as me when it comes to all of those attachment patterns, and then everything will be resolved. We'll live happily ever after, two anxiouses, spending all of our time together, being obsessed with each other, both feet on the accelerator and the avoidance can go over there and be in their relationship where they have lots of space and peace among the lands. As you can probably tell from the way I'm talking about that, it's a little messier and more complicated.

0:01:51.56 → 0:02:33.06

And as is often the case, what makes logical sense often doesn't take into account the emotional layers that drive a lot of our behaviours when it comes to relationships. So I'm going to be speaking about that not only can these versions of relationship work, can these pairings work, but also why it is that they don't tend to happen that often, why it is that anxious and avoidant people tend to gravitate towards one another rather than sticking to their own kind. So that's what I'm going to be talking about today. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. The first is a celebration.

0:02:33.12 → 0:03:04.42

I forgot to mention this on the show last week or the week before when it happened, but we recently crossed over a million downloads for the show in less than a year since starting the podcast. I think it's about a week or so until the podcast turns one. So to have crossed over a million downloads in less than a year is really incredible. And I'm just so grateful to all of you. Whether you're a new listener or you've been here since the start, I am so proud of this show and what it's become and continues to evolve into.

0:03:04.55 → 0:03:35.81

And none of that would be possible without your support. So to anyone who has listened or left a review or a rating, or shared it with someone in your life, or shared it on social media, I'm so immensely grateful and thankful for you and for your ongoing support. So from the bottom of my heart, sending you so much love and gratitude. The second quick announcement is just to share. If you listened to the episode earlier in the week, you may have heard me speak about my Homecoming Mastermind programme, which is now open for applications.

0:03:35.99 → 0:04:23.36

The next round of the programme starts in July, so it's still a little bit away, but I'm offering an early bird rate for those who sign up before the end of the month. And I've already had five or six amazing applications in the last couple of days, so it's already shaving up to be a beautiful collection of women. This is a six month programme with me. We meet every week on Zoom and we have a community channel between calls. So if you are looking to work with me intimately as well as forging beautiful connections with others who are on the same path, who are doing this work, who are showing up in the mess and being beautifully brave and courageous in facing all of the parts of us that are sometimes uncomfortable to face.

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I would love for you to apply the link to that is in the show notes. I realise that that probably is only relevant to a tiny fraction of you listening, as it is my highest level programme and it is a big commitment, so I won't speak too much more about it. But just if that feels like you and you're feeling the pull, you can find all of that via my website and I would love to receive your application. Finally, just to share today's featured review, which is I feel like I could indeed, I often do listen to these episodes on repeat. I feel like Steph is spot on with all of her explanations and I found myself nodding along, saying yes, yes to myself throughout the episodes.

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I also appreciate that Steph doesn't have black and white opinions on matters and allows space for us listeners to fill in the blanks. Thank you so much for your beautiful review. I really appreciate the kind words. If that was yours, please send an email to podcast@stephanierig.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my Master classes. Okay, let's dive into this conversation around can a relationship between two anxiously attached people, or two avoidant people, for that matter, work?

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So I think it's important to say at the outset that in my view, any relationship in the abstract, in a hypothetical sense, can of course, work if we're willing to put in the work to make it so. So I would never be one to say, oh, no, that pairing will never work. I think that's just a bit blunt and unhelpful and untrue, right? There's so much individual variation and richness and messiness in between the lines of putting people into buckets and saying, oh, if you tend towards anxious attachment, you could never possibly be in a successful relationship with someone else of that same blueprint that just denies the immense complexity of all of us in our humanness. So I want to make that very clear at the outset.

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What I'm going to talk about today is not to deny the possibility of this working in any individual case, right? But what I do want to speak to is why is it that anxiously attached people don't tend to be attracted to one another? They don't tend to end up in relationship with each other. And likewise, neither do avoidant people for the most part tend to be in relationship with each other. So I think taking almost a spiritual or metaphysical lens on this, relationships and systems tend to find balance, right?

0:06:56.15 → 0:07:40.08

We tend to find this yin and yang. There tends to be this equilibrium point where a relationship, it's that classic thing of opposites attract. And I think there is some truth in that. That two people who are very very similar in terms of all of their behaviours, their attachment wounds, their attachment drives, their origin stories tend not to be drawn to each other because our attachment behaviours develop in response to something, right? And what they develop in response to is what we almost grew around.

0:07:41.01 → 0:08:13.22

So because we're used to growing around that and we've been shaped by what we experienced, we tend to it's like a puzzle piece. We're looking for someone who fits that piece that is missing in our puzzle that we learn to grow around. That's probably an imperfect metaphor or visual, but I'm hoping that's starting to make sense. So to take it out of the abstract, if I am anxiously attached, if I am, I'll actually use myself as an example here. What did I learn?

0:08:13.40 → 0:08:28.58

I learned to be low maintenance, okay? I learned to be good. I learned not to cause a fuss. I learned to take care of other people really well. I learned to be very empathetic and attuned.

0:08:28.69 → 0:09:03.56

I learned to be a great peacekeeper or a peacemaker. I learned to be a mediator in conflict, right? These are all of the skills that I learned in my family system. And so with those being my skills, that being my puzzle piece, the puzzle piece of me, I am likely to gravitate towards someone who I can use those skills and strategies with. Someone who might have higher needs than me, someone who might need stabilising or in my perception, right?

0:09:03.61 → 0:09:43.58

Someone who I can take care of, someone who is higher maintenance or unavailable or whatever else. And I have to work hard to get their attention. I have to strive, I have to try and control the conditions of the environment in order to keep the ship afloat, all of these things, right? That is what I know, that is what I have been trained to do and that is what is familiar to me. So when we go out into the world as adults and we have these attachment wounds and the behaviours that grew from them, you can almost think of it as a seed.

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And then all of the branches on the tree become our behaviours, our strategies that we know so well, that have become part of who and how we move around the world. We're looking for someone that fits in with that, that clicks in with that. And if we've got two anxiously attached people, then we've got two people who want to be the caretaker, two people who want to be the people pleaser, two people who are wanting to suppress their needs to take care of someone else's, two people who are hyper vigilant and on high alert and monitoring everything, right? Without much to monitor because the other person's doing the same and is suppressing their own stuff. So there just tends not to be this subconscious drive of like, oh, that's where I can make myself useful, that's where I can slot into that system and know my place in it.

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So hopefully that's starting to give you a sense of why we tend not to gravitate towards someone with the same attachment style and pattern as us, because it doesn't tend to remind us of our initial blueprint of what love and connection looks and feels like. So with all of that being said, of course there will be circumstances where two anxiously attached people, or too avoidant leaning people, do end up in relationship with each other. But what tends to happen here and it comes back to this idea of we find our way to a balance point, right? It's unlikely that two people will stay at the same end of the spectrum when in relationship with each other because so much of this stuff is like call and response, right? It's so much of a dialogue, it's such a co created dynamic.

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And so what tends to happen is that, say two anxiously attached people are in a relationship, one person will likely be more anxiously attached, right? One person will be more paranoid, one person will be more clingy to use that word. One person will be more invested, one person will be more stressed out by any sort of distance or uncertainty, one person will require more reassurance. And what that tends to elicit in the other person, who might, in other circumstances lean more anxious. They will typically, again, I'm speaking in very general terms here, because I'm not going to tell you this is what will exactly happen in your relationship.

0:12:11.69 → 0:12:48.09

What will typically happen is they will start to exhibit more avoidant behaviours, they'll start to push some of that away. When that anxious energy gets really extreme, they will start to pull back and they will start to withdraw. They'll start to become overwhelmed by the intensity of the other person's anxiety and so on and so forth. So it finds its way to what ends up looking something like an anxious avoidant dynamic, right? And again reminding ourselves that attachment styles aren't fixed, they really are responsive to relational dynamics and relational patterns.

0:12:48.14 → 0:13:37.54

So it's entirely possible, and indeed not unlikely that too anxious people or too avoidant people are in relationship that you will start to exhibit more of an anxious avoidant dynamic, particularly in times of distress or relational tension or whatever else you'll find your way to aversion an expression of that dynamic and that pattern, even though you might have previously, in other relationships, both been more inclined towards one end of the spectrum or the other. And the same goes. People often ask me could a secure person become anxious if they were in relationship with someone who was extremely avoidant? Or could a secure person become avoidant if they were in relationship with someone who was extremely anxious? And the answer is yes, absolutely.

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Some behaviours extreme avoidance can create anxiety. Extreme inconsistency, extreme dishonesty or intermittent reinforcement can create anxiety in someone who is otherwise not really prone to anxious attachment. I think the only qualifier to that, and I'm going a little off topic, but just to clarify, is the difference with a secure person is they might be less inclined to get in those relationships in the first place, or to let them get to the point of that extreme where they're really suffering as a result. People who are really secure tend to be pretty good at advocating for themselves and setting boundaries and walking away from things that are unhealthy. But that doesn't change the fact that notionally, yes, you could be primarily secure and then notice yourself slipping into more insecure patterns one way or the other in response to someone's behaviour.

0:14:36.97 → 0:15:24.48

I hope that that has answered the question to recap. Basically yes, a relationship between two anxiously attached people could work under the right conditions and the right people, but it tends not to happen very much of the time that they are attracted to each other in the first place. And if they are and do end up in a relationship, they will oftentimes find their way to more of an anxious avoidant, yin yang, opposites attract dynamic, which tends to keep the relationship in balance a little more, rather than both people being at one end of the spectrum or the other over the long term. If you've enjoyed this episode and found that helpful, please do leave a five star rating or a review if you're listening on Apple podcasts. As I said, it really does help so much.

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And thank you again for helping me reach over a million downloads. I'm so grateful for you and I look forward to seeing you next week. Thanks guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment.

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If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.

The Role of Criticism in Anxious-Avoidant Dynamics

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

Today's episode is all about the role of criticism in anxious-avoidant dynamics. Both anxious and avoidant people have been known to deploy criticism as a strategy to manage fears and self-protect in relationships - but this will often look different (and be motivated by different drives) on each side. 

One thing's for sure: no matter how it shows up, criticism is really harmful to relationships - so if this is something you struggle with, you've come to the right place. 

WHAT WE COVER:

• how anxiously attached people use criticism as a protest behaviour 

• criticism as a way to convey our hurt

• how avoidant people use criticism to sow seeds of doubt and create distance

• how to identify the needs underlying our criticism so we can communicate in a healthier way

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

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You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's episode is all about criticism in anxious avoidant dynamics, so how criticism tends to come up and what different partners might use criticism for in an anxious avoidant dynamic.

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So this has been something that's been swirling around in my head, as is the case with many of the topics that I speak about on the podcast. And it's come up for me because I think that criticism, if you read any of the literature around attachment, you'll find that criticism is something that both anxious and avoidant leaning people will deploy as a strategy at various points in time to try and get a need met. And I think that as a broader point, if you're familiar with my work and my approach, you'll know that even these ostensibly unhealthy or problem behaviours, if we were to call them that, they're all ultimately trying to meet a need, they're trying to protect us against something, they're trying to achieve an end. And so looking at criticism through this lens of what am I trying to achieve when I criticise my partner? Whether that's inwardly, whether it's just our inner voice noticing the deficiencies of our partner and feeling very judgmental, or whether it's outward criticism and it's something that we are using to try and elicit a response or change or engagement in a partner getting really curious

0:02:03.08 → 0:02:03.41

around.

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Okay, what's driving that? What is this really about for me? So that we can create a little space, create greater awareness and ultimately create the possibility of using a healthier strategy that's more conducive to a secure relationship and is much more likely to get whatever the underlying need is met than just being critical of our partner. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. Before we dive into that, a couple of quick announcements.

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The first being I'm really, really excited to share that applications are now open for my Homecoming Mastermind. So I haven't spoken very much about this programme, but it is the most intimate way to work with me. It's a small group, mastermind. It runs for six months. I've been running the current Cohort since January and it has exceeded my expectations in every way.

0:03:03.50 → 0:03:39.32

It is a beautiful, beautiful group. We meet weekly and we have coaching calls. We talk about most everything you could imagine from relationships, relationship with self fears, insecurities, desires. We really cover the full spectrum. And it has been so very humbling to watch not only the breakthroughs and the transformations, but the way that the women in the group relate to one another and support one another and cheer each other on hold each other, in our tears and in our tender moments.

0:03:39.43 → 0:04:11.85

It has been incredibly healing, not only for the people that I've been guiding through the group, but for me as well. It's something that I look forward to every week. I will be starting another round of Homecoming in July and I am accepting applications for that now. It is by application only, just because it is such a small group and I want to make sure that we're a good fit on both sides. But if you are someone who is not brand new to this work, it's not really suited for someone who is just dipping a toe in.

0:04:11.97 → 0:05:15.70

If you're someone who's been doing this kind of work for a while and you probably have a lot of the self awareness and the intellectual stuff down pat, that maybe you're looking for a way to get to that. Next level of inner freedom and peace and worth and joy and liberation that can really only come with embodying and integrating all of the knowledge and all of the learnings. I would love to have you apply for Homecoming. All of the details of that are in the show notes or you can go directly to my website and if you have any questions on that one, once you've read through the registration page, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram or you can reach out to my team at support@stephanierigue.com. Okay, the second quick announcement is just to share the featured review, as always, and this one is stephanie's podcast and Higher Love course have helped me immensely.

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I started listening a couple of months before leaving my toxic, anxious avoidant relationship and used the tools from her work to get me through that hard time setting goals for the future and navigating putting myself out there again, I cannot recommend her highly enough. Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I really appreciate it and I'm so glad that you've found that empowerment through the podcast and Higher Love. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierig.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my Master classes. Okay, all of that out of the way.

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Let's talk about criticism in Anxious Avoidant relationships. So, as I said in the intro, when it comes to something like criticism, it's really easy to fall into a pattern of self defence. And as I've often said, and this is a line I got from my therapist giving credit where it's due, if you attack someone, they'll defend themselves. And similarly, if we feel attacked, we will defend ourselves, right? That is fairly predictable and reliable, straightforward.

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And yet oftentimes we feel very justified in defending ourselves in the face of a perceived attack and we feel very frustrated when people defend themselves in the face of our attacks. Right? It is one of those double standards, but I think that we have to dig a little deeper when we notice criticism coming up in our relationships. And I should say at the outset, criticism is so damaging to relationships, it really very quickly erodes the connection. If the overall tone of your relationship is infused with negativity and criticism and nitpicking and blame and judgement, contempt even, there's no real space for genuine love, connection, care, appreciation, because that negativity tends to take up a lot of space and it tends to give rise to more negativity.

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So it's a really very quick downward spiral from that place and it can be hard to get out of. I think a lot of the time, when we're in a bit of a rut and maybe we're both feeling critical of each other, or one person's feeling very critical and the other is withdrawing or turning away from that, it can feel really risky to stop criticising. And this probably leads me into the discussion of how anxious attachment, people with an anxious attachment style might use criticism as a strategy and what need are they trying to meet? And I say they, when really it is we, because I've definitely been guilty of this myself, as always, I am not calling any of this out from a place of judgement, but rather of self awareness. So on the anxious attachment side, what role is criticism playing?

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I think what often happens is when we feel like we can't reach someone as an anxiously attached person, and particularly in partnership with an avoidant leaning person, you will often feel like you cannot reach them. Even if you can reach them in moments, you can't reach them all the time. And so the withdrawal of their availability to you feels threatening in some way. And this can be true in a casual setting or in a very long term relationship, but as soon as we feel like we can't reach them, and that leads us to feel some sense of uncertainty or lack of control, then we usually have this escalating, almost ladder of protest behaviours. So we might start with, this will be different for everyone, right?

0:09:04.17 → 0:10:02.08

It'll just depend on your specific brand of protest behaviours and what you have learned basically in the past has worked for you and what hasn't. We all tend to do this pretty subconsciously, but we have our very well sharpened tools in terms of getting our needs met. So it might be sulking, it might be stomping around, it might be huffing, it might be trying to elicit some sort of what's wrong so that we can then let someone know that they've upset us in some way. When that doesn't work, we might escalate and the escalation again might look different for different people. But as we sort of climb this ladder, I think criticism comes up as one of the strategies that maybe before criticism we try pleading or blaming or some sort of asking for something in a way that doesn't work, or we tiptoe around it.

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We try to indirectly ask for what we need, but it doesn't quite land. And so then we escalate from there. And by the time we get to criticism, what we're typically doing is I'm in pain, and I want you to be in pain with me so that you know how I feel. Or I'm in pain, and I really need for you to understand how bad you are and agree with me that you are bad so that I feel validated in my pain. And so I might hurl these complaints or criticisms at you, telling you that there's something wrong with you.

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Any normal person would know this, or you always do that, or you never do this, and RA in this quite attacking way. But the undercurrent for the anxious person is not, I am attacking you because I think you are terrible. It's I'm attacking you because I'm terrified that I'm losing you and for some reason, attack emerges as a way to get engagement from you. So if I can connect with you via this escalation in my communication, via criticising you and making you see how you've hurt me, then you'll change and then I'll feel safe again. And this can be really real and really big.

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We can have this feeling of I'm terrified that if you don't see how much you're hurting me, that you won't change. And I don't think we can survive if you don't change. So I need to get you to change. And when I ask nicely, in my mind, this is all very much story, right? If I ask nicely, you don't do what I want and so I have to ask not so nicely or tell not so nicely, try and control in order that we can work our way back to harmony as I see it, and I can feel safe again, right?

0:12:04.71 → 0:12:38.01

So there's a lot in that. And as I said, it will look different for different people. There'll be different flavours of this, but the undercurrent for the anxious person is I'm trying to criticise you to either get engagement when I feel like you're slipping away, so I might be in an argument and again, I've been guilty of this. Not in my current relationship so much, but definitely in a previous one. If my partner in conflict would leave the room, as he often did, he'd sort of just tap out and storm off and I would just go after him like an animal, right?

0:12:38.05 → 0:13:35.45

I was so incensed and enraged with the fact that he could leave me in that vulnerable moment where I was trying to express something. It felt so abandoning and uncaring that I would follow him. I would follow him around the house and just hurl the awful criticisms at him so that I could get him to see how bad he was and how much he was hurting me. And spoiler alert, that wasn't very effective and usually led him to withdraw further or if he reached some sort of breaking point to start hurling criticisms back at me. But that was really I can look at it now with clear vision and say I was just in this state of total panic that if he was unable to engage with what I was telling him he was doing wrong, and if he continued to invalidate that, then it would go on forever, and my pain would go on forever.

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And that terrified me. So I used criticism as a way to try and get that message across, to try and really convey the magnitude and the gravity of the pain that I was in. But again, not a very effective strategy because as soon as we throw those hand grenades, people duck for cover, right? It's just that defensiveness really inhibits any ability to receive the underlying substance of the message or the yearning or the desire or the fear underneath it. The vulnerability just gets cased in attack and venom and all of this stuff that really inhibits the connection that we so desire.

0:14:14.61 → 0:14:48.33

So that's what it tends to look like and be driven by. On the anxious side, on the avoidant side, criticism is a little different, but it's definitely there. And I think that in my observation, of course, avoidant detachment is not my personal experience. So I am speaking from an observer point of view of people I've been in relationship with and worked with. I think that the criticism tends to be either a reaction against feeling controlled.

0:14:48.67 → 0:16:00.25

So if you're feeling like someone's trying to control you, you might notice a real criticism of them and feeling very judgmental of them, really disliking them, almost feeling kind of repulsed by them and feeling critical of everything they do and say and represent. It's like you just feel this really visceral kind of disgust response towards them and can feel very critical about oftentimes quite banal things or quite arbitrary things. So that can be kind of a direct reaction to feeling controlled by them or feeling smothered, feeling suffocated, or it can be a little less direct and can just be sort of part of a broader subconscious distancing strategy. And basically that is a strategy that's going to go about collecting all the evidence as to why the relationship isn't right, why it's not a good relationship, why it's not a good idea. And so you might notice yourself becoming very NIT picky or critical or blaming of just all of these little things, right?

0:16:00.37 → 0:16:50.70

As I said, it's less likely to be a big outburst of criticism that's in a heated moment and it might show up more as an internal voice of doubt. So feeling, as I said, quite critical towards your partner, just all of the things that they do, the things that they like, personality traits, you might start to find those things really unattractive and feel quite judgmental of all of the things that your partner does. You might find yourself very frustrated if they're not doing things right or in the right way or the way that you think would be best. It's sort of like this sense of the ways in which we're different. My brain takes as proof that we are not a good fit because I feel very protective of my way.

0:16:50.83 → 0:17:33.18

And so to the extent that you are different to me, I take that as evidence that you are less than and use that to support my protector story that this relationship is not right and kind of push you away using that criticism. So as we can see, they come up in different ways. Right. The anxious criticism and it's kind of emblematic of the broader dynamic there. The anxious criticism tends to be frantic and panicked and ultimately designed to get connection in this really survival driven way of I am this last resort thing of I need to get you to hear me.

0:17:33.23 → 0:18:23.33

So I'm escalating and I'm going to be critical of you. Whereas the avoidant flavour of criticism tends to be a little bit more under the surface and it tends to be around doubt and uncertainty and creating that distance or disconnection trying to find reasons and evidence that would support our safety strategy. If I need to go back to my aloneness now and I'm justified in doing that and that will be the best thing for me because this person is deficient or not right for me or bad or imperfect in all of these ways and here's all of my evidence to support that. Right, okay, so what do we do with all of that? I think, as always, it comes back to this thing of there's no quick solution.

0:18:23.38 → 0:19:01.70

It's not a switch we can flip off. These protective strategies are with us for a reason and they've served a purpose and we can see the ways in which they are blocking us from getting what we truly desire and maybe blocking us from experiencing safe, loving, healthy, thriving relationships. I think a really good first step. And if you were to kind of take away an action item from today's conversation, if this is something that you notice in yourself is the next time you feel the urge to be critical of your partner, go, okay, what am I trying to achieve with this? Am I trying to control my partner?

0:19:01.76 → 0:19:25.09

Am I feeling out of control and am I trying to get back to control? Am I feeling like I can't reach my partner, like they're slipping away from me? Am I feeling really hurt? And I want my partner to either feel that hurt as well or for them to know how hurt I am. And the only way I feel like I can do that, that I'll be taken seriously, is by getting really escalated.

0:19:25.91 → 0:20:10.73

Am I trying to spot doubts or imperfections in my partner so as to justify my withdrawal as a way to protect my fear? Of vulnerability and intimacy, all of these things. There's a lot in this. And having this lens of curiosity slowing down, rather than taking the surface thing, the surface urge or thought or feeling as true and meaning something about our relationship or our partner, can we instead get curious and create a bit of space and go, okay, what am I afraid would happen if I didn't do this thing? What am I afraid would happen if I wasn't critical or if I didn't say that or do that?

0:20:10.85 → 0:21:00.91

I think that question often leads us to really powerful insights about the purpose that that behaviour is serving in our relationship. And then once we have a little more clarity around, okay, this is what that's actually about for me, then we can start to create choice and we can start to consider what an alternative might look like. Right? So, to give an example on the anxious side, if I'm using criticism as a way to convey how upset I am and how scared I am, can I instead tell you that I'm scared? Can I say to you, I don't want to criticise you, but at the same time I need you to know how important this is to me.

0:21:01.06 → 0:21:18.48

And it's really frightening for me when I feel like I can't reach you or that you're not hearing me because this thing feels so big inside me and I don't know what to do with that. And I really need to know that you hear me. Can you tell me that you hear me? Or something? Right?

0:21:18.58 → 0:21:32.20

But can we say the vulnerable thing rather than the aggressive thing? Because again, attack, defend. That can be your other key takeaway from today's episode. If I attack, they'll defend. And the same goes both ways, right?

0:21:32.33 → 0:21:48.54

So, knowing that, what could I do instead? What would a non attacking version of this feeling look and sound like? And just try it and allow yourself to be in the messiness of it. Right. I personally love the example I just gave.

0:21:48.59 → 0:22:21.74

I love that kind of strategy because all it's doing is basically narrating what's going on inside you rather than acting on the thing. So rather than saying, you never do this, we can say, I notice myself wanting to attack you and I really don't want to do that. But here's what I'm feeling and not saying I'm feeling like you never do this and I'm feeling like you're a terrible partner. No, I'm feeling scared, I'm feeling lonely, I'm feeling really worried that you don't hear me or understand me. Right.

0:22:22.43 → 0:23:10.67

And taking responsibility for the stories, sharing vulnerably, what the feelings are, and then waiting through that mess together and finding a way to meet in the middle and find a solution. Again, the more we dig our heels in and commit to needing to find a good guy and a bad guy and right and wrong, we stay in that really oppositional, antagonistic energy, and nothing good comes from that. We don't get the connection that we all so deeply want when we're in that place. I really hope that this conversation has been interesting to you and that it's been helpful. If you've enjoyed this episode, it'd be so grateful if you could leave a five star rating if you're on Spotify or a written review if you're listening on Apple podcasts.

0:23:10.77 → 0:23:17.02

But otherwise, I look forward to seeing you later this week for our Q and A episode. Thanks so much, guys. Take care.

0:23:19.63 → 0:23:42.24

Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg.com or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here, and I hope to see you again soon.

"How to deal with an all-consuming fear that my partner will cheat on me?"

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

In today's Q&A episode, I'm answering the question of how to navigate an all-consuming fear & paranoia around a partner cheating - particularly in circumstances where that fear is seemingly unwarranted.

WHAT WE COVER:

• the importance of nervous system regulation when we experience intense fear & paranoia

• when to talk to a partner about our fears

• the link between fear of cheating and low self-worth

• a liberating truth about control in relationships

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.41 → 0:00:38.24

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's Q and A episode is all about navigating paranoia about a partner cheating.

0:00:38.38 → 0:01:30.26

So the specific question that I'm answering is one that I got on Instagram and it was how do I navigate paranoia and all consuming fear of cheating, even when there's no warranted situation at hand? So if you are someone who really struggles with the fear of infidelity and all of the associated behaviours that can spring from that paranoia overthinking control. Playing detective, maybe snooping, struggling to trust your partner, really struggling with any sort of distance between you, because you tend to fill in the blanks and assume that the moment they're out of sight, they're going to be doing something in breach of the agreements of your relationship. All of these things can flow from that paranoia about a partner cheating. And so if that's something that you experience at the moment or you have in the past, you know that that's something you struggle with.

0:01:30.39 → 0:02:21.17

Today's episode should be really helpful for you in understanding that piece of you a little more. I think that for me to say that I can solve that for you in a 15 minutes episode would be misleading because there's usually a lot of stuff wrapped up in it. But I suppose the way I frame it is probably as you do the broader work of healing and becoming more secure in yourself, of building your self worth then your fear around things like infidelity and the paranoia and the need to control will probably organically soften because as we'll talk about that stuff usually springs from extremely low self worth and low self esteem and the associated fears that can come with that. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements.

0:02:21.33 → 0:02:41.51

Today is the last day to join this round of healing anxious attachment. At the time of recording, we have just over 300 people who've signed up in the last couple of weeks. So it's really, really amazing. I'm so excited for all of those people who've already dived in. So when you sign up, you get instant access to the first module and then each module after that will be released weekly from your start date.

0:02:41.60 → 0:03:20.24

So it's an eight module course, an eight week course, although you do get lifetime access to all of the materials. You also get to come to two live Q and A calls with me. That might sound a little weird given I just told you there's 300 people who've signed up, but in the past we've not had more than 30ish people on a call. The reality is most people don't turn up live. So if it's anything like previous cohorts, which were of a similar size, you do still get access to me and have the opportunity to ask me a question and have me directly speak to your situation and give you some individual coaching within that group forum.

0:03:20.35 → 0:03:52.39

So, as I said, today is the last day to join. There is an extended payment plan so you can get started for as little as $97 on a six month payment plan. The link to that is in the show notes, and I probably won't be running the course until the latter half of the year. I haven't set a date for that yet, but if it's something that you've been considering, I do really encourage you to cheque it out and sign up because there is no time like the present to get started on this work. The second quick announcement is just to share the featured review, which is I really love this one.

0:03:52.54 → 0:04:08.74

Stephanie's teaching on attachment and relationships has settled deep in my heart. She brings a beautiful mix of knowledge, wisdom, experience, compassion and forthrightness that speaks the truth in a loving but firm manner. I highly recommend all of her podcasts. Thank you for that beautiful review. As I said, I really loved that one when I read it.

0:04:08.84 → 0:04:44.09

If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephaniereg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around paranoia, jealousy, all consuming fear about a partner cheating. Now, you might recall that in the original question that someone asked, they said, it's an unwarranted fear. There's nothing currently happening that would justify this fear of mine. And I think that that's an important qualifier at the outset.

0:04:44.11 → 0:05:27.09

And I'm always minded to offer this caveat, because oftentimes I hear from people who really struggle with jealousy and they blame themselves for that. They say, what's wrong with me? I'm so paranoid, I'm so crazy, I'm so jealous. And then they tell me a little more about the situation, and my response is, well, of course you feel that way, because there are things going on there that would make anyone feel crazy and paranoid and jealous. So I think that that's an important footnote to this discussion at the outset is that when we're talking about paranoia, trust issues, jealousy, we want to make sure that we're not almost like gaslighting ourselves or making ourselves out.

0:05:27.13 → 0:06:01.59

To be the crazy one, the unhinged one, the unstable one, when there are things that are sort of patently not okay or would not be okay. For the vast majority of people in monogamous relationships or non monogamous relationships where there are clear boundaries that are being crossed. So that might be true in the current sense, but also if there has been previous infidelity within the relationship. Again, give yourself some grace because that's not something that's easy to just get over and draw a line under. The past is in the past, and I'm not going to have those feelings come up again.

0:06:01.68 → 0:06:39.18

That's a very normal and understandable way to respond to betrayal infidelity some sort of breach of trust. And even if that wasn't in the current relationship, if that has been in your past, then your body remembers that and your protective mechanisms, your protective parts, their whole job is to look out for similarities of things that happened in your past that were painful or frightening and try to protect you against that. So if there's anything that looks even vaguely similar to something that happened in the past, you're going to get the alarm bells ringing. That's how your system works. Okay?

0:06:39.55 → 0:07:25.33

So let's just be somewhat kind to ourselves around what we're bringing to relationships in terms of what might have happened in our past that would justify us feeling a certain way. With all of that being said, I think we can acknowledge and agree that there are circumstances where our reaction, our response doesn't match what's really happening. And that can feel extremely frustrating and scary and destabilising. And we can feel like we're almost possessed by this demonic part that is behaving in a way. It's almost like we can watch ourselves in slow motion and go, I'm being a bit crazy here, but I feel powerless to stop it because I'm so scared, I'm so panicked about this.

0:07:25.50 → 0:08:02.93

And so I think a really good starting point if you listened to the episode earlier in the week with Sarah Baldwin on Understanding your Nervous system, I think the more literacy you have around your nervous system, the better equipped you will be to navigate things like all consuming fear, paranoia. And what you'll probably notice is a very sympathetic response to that, meaning a lot of activation, energy mobilisation, I have to do something, right? This sense of probably being really flooded with energy, heat, tingling, I've got to do something. I've got to find information. I've got to call them.

0:08:02.97 → 0:08:50.53

I've got to cheque on them, I've got to stalk them, whatever I've got to do. But it's like your body is propelling you into action to try and deal with this perceived threat. The more that you can locate yourself and your current experience in the states of your nervous system, the better equipped you will be to regulate and then go, okay, what's really happening here? Can I put on my clear glasses and see this situation for what it is, rather than looking at everything that's going on through this lens of extreme fear and dysregulation? So in summary, whenever you notice this and this might be something that happens acutely, so in certain situations, you have sudden bouts of paranoia, or maybe it's something that's kind of chronic.

0:08:50.61 → 0:09:46.85

But either way, when you notice that coming up prioritising regulation in your body. So maybe that's going for a run, maybe that's calling a friend, whatever you need to do to bring your body back into a level of regulation that's going to be a really responsible, I would say, first step in managing these emotions. I think that there is definitely scope to talk to a partner about this right now, depending on the state of your relationship, depending on how your communication is, depending on your partner's capacity. But I don't think it's something that you have to internalise and feel shame about and feel really alone in that experience. So if it's totally unwarranted and your partner has never done anything to your knowledge to breach trust, then you can say to them, I know that this is going to sound crazy, and I really want you to understand.

0:09:46.97 → 0:10:33.39

That this is not an accusation and it's not something that I'm saying you've done wrong. But I'm having these thoughts and feelings, and it's causing me a lot of stress. Having that awareness for yourself, what stories am I telling myself and where is that coming from and what do I need in order to feel safe in this? Letting your partner into the experience a bit can be quite relieving, but we just want to make sure that we're not doing it in a way that is dumping it on them and then making it their responsibility to reassure us and convince us that everything is okay. Because if we become reliant on them to create that safety for us, we're going to need just regular doses of reassurance from them in order to feel safe.

0:10:33.44 → 0:11:12.60

And if you're really anxiously attached, which I assume the person who is asking this question is that will never be enough. No amount of reassurance from them will be enough because it's just not actually meeting the need, right. If anything, it's perpetuating the pattern of I'm only safe if you convince me that I'm safe, rather than being able to create that for myself. So as I alluded to at the start, I think the bigger picture work on this. If we think about regulating our nervous system and having a conversation with our partner around what we're feeling and what we might need from them, or things that might help relationally.

0:11:12.63 → 0:11:48.81

If those are the two shorter term practical points to help you with this, the bigger picture solution is going to be building up your self worth. Because fear about a partner cheating or jealousy about a partner's exes anything like this is just a symptom of really low self worth, right? We're convinced that the second we turn our back, our partner is going to go find someone better than us that they like more, that they're more attracted to, that they want more. And that is terrifying, right? But it is just a symptom of I think that I am unworthy.

0:11:48.89 → 0:12:14.05

I think that I am not good enough. I think that I have very little to offer. I'm not attractive enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not funny enough, I'm not compelling enough as a partner and therefore I'm holding on to you by a thread. It feels like there's nothing substantive keeping you here and in relationship with me. I am convinced that you're going to leave me the first chance you get.

0:12:14.17 → 0:12:43.16

And so I'm extremely paranoid about you cheating on me. That is a low self worth story. That is a story that only takes root when we feel like we have nothing to offer, like we have no value to our partner. And while again there might be aspects of that that we can deal with relationally, the vast majority of that is your work. And that's not meant to lay blame on you.

0:12:43.18 → 0:13:14.60

It's meant to empower you to go wow, okay, this is an inside job, I've got some work to do. Where did I learn that I have to prove my worth and that I have to be perfect in order to be lovable and that I have to control someone and keep them so close because the second I let go, they're going to leave me. If I release my grip on them, they're going to run and find someone that they actually love. Where did I learn that? Where's that coming from in me?

0:13:14.73 → 0:13:43.55

What part of me needs comfort and reassurance and soothing that I can offer in order to change that story? And again, this is longer term work, right? This is the work of reprogramming our core wounds. But I think that I alluded to this last week in a different context on what to do when you're feeling stuck in your relationship. But the more that you can turn focus back onto yourself because paranoia about a partner cheating is so other focused, right?

0:13:43.59 → 0:14:12.08

That's a beautiful expression of the anxious attachment tendency to be obsessed with what our partner is doing and needing to control that in order to feel okay within ourselves. So the more that we can interrupt that expression of the pattern and instead go okay, what do I need? How can I stand on my own 2ft and be less hyper focused on what my partner is doing, right? And actually turn attention inward? And what do I need and what do I want to do?

0:14:12.12 → 0:14:47.52

And how can I make my life really full and rich and rewarding without that being tethered to the ups and downs of my relationship or whatever my partner might be doing or not doing? The last thing that I want to offer here. And this is a little bit more philosophical and for some people this will be very triggering, for others it will be very liberating. So just bear that in mind and if it doesn't work for you, leave it. The radical truth is that you cannot control your partner and if your partner wants to cheat on you, they will cheat on you.

0:14:47.59 → 0:15:34.00

Irrespective of whether you are on them like a hawk, they'll find a way. So put differently, no amount of control or manipulation or detective work or monitoring is going to be able to keep someone where they don't want to be. So in acknowledgment of that can we release the grip and trust? Right? Because we've either got a relationship that has no trust that is governed by control and monitoring and detective work and grip and clinging and fear and paranoia and all of these really heavy exhausting dynamics and even in that dynamic your partner could still cheat on you.

0:15:34.10 → 0:16:01.92

Your partner could leave you tomorrow, right? We can never control that. That's part of the intense vulnerability of relationships is that we cannot stop ourselves from getting hurt no matter how hard we try. So we could try, we could be on that hamster wheel of control and seeking to control and preempt and try and avoid the worst happening even though we ultimately can't. Or we could let go.

0:16:02.45 → 0:16:53.24

We could trust, we could create space, we could be with the discomfort of distance and uncertainty and not knowing and not being able to guarantee that your partner won't cheat on you because none of us can. And instead focus on building our self worth and building our resilience, building our capacity to experience discomfort and building the self trust of knowing that even if the worst happens, I will be okay. Because I have reallocated that energy that I was obsessing over what someone else is doing and instead directed that towards cultivating a stronger relationship with myself so that I learn to be my own anchor. I learn to be okay. And that is not to say that we're kind of tacitly or indirectly endorsing cheating or infidelity or mistrust or anything like that, right?

0:16:53.34 → 0:17:45.20

It's more to acknowledge that the control tactics don't actually work. If anything, they can probably sabotage a relationship by pushing someone away because none of us like to feel controlled, none of us like to feel like someone doesn't trust us. That really erodes emotional safety and intimacy. So put that way and of course easier said than done but that is part of the intense vulnerability of being in relationship and this work is wow, I don't own this person and I can't control what they're doing and I don't know what goes on in their head. So can I radically accept that and surrender into it rather than banging my head up against a wall and causing myself so much stress and tension and fear and anxiety in the process?

0:17:45.73 → 0:18:11.21

Okay, so I hope that that has given you something to think about. As I said, it's not one that I can give you a three step plan and then voila, it will be solved within a couple of days. It is really a symptom of the broader experience of anxious attachment of low self worth. It springs from that. It really does take root in that soil.

0:18:11.39 → 0:18:27.02

And that's okay, right? It's not something to shame ourselves about. It makes perfect sense. And you are so far from being alone in this experience. I've experienced this for sure, but I've also experienced the version where I've made peace with not being able to control someone.

0:18:27.07 → 0:19:11.24

And I can assure you that there's a lot of relief in that, even though it can feel vulnerable at times. So I hope that that's been helpful for the person who asked the question and anyone else listening, who struggles with paranoia, struggling to trust betrayal infidelity all of those fears, which are, as I said, very understandable and very common. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a five star rating or a written review. If you're listening on Apple podcasts, it really does help so much. And a final reminder that if you are someone who struggles with anxious attachment and you're ready to make a change, today is the last day to sign up for my Healing Anxious Attachment programme.

0:19:11.37 → 0:19:19.44

The link is in the show notes and I would love to see you there. Thank you so much for joining me, everybody, and I will see you again next week. Take care.

0:19:21.57 → 0:19:43.62

Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.

Understanding Your Nervous System with Sarah Baldwin

LISTEN: APPLE | SPOTIFY

In today's episode, I'm speaking with Sarah Baldwin - a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner and Trauma Coach who is trained in Polyvagal interventions and is on the training team at the Polyvagal Institute.

Sarah specialises in somatic trauma healing, attachment work, parts and inner child work and nervous system regulation.

WHAT WE COVER:

• why nervous system regulation is the missing piece in so much healing work

• understanding the different states of your nervous system

• the connection between attachment and nervous system regulation

• how to distinguish between anxiety and intuition

FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:

• Sign up for my signature 8-week course Healing Anxious Attachment

• Download the free guide: Attachment 101

• Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment

• Visit my website

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You might also like…

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Episode Transcript

0:00:00.57 → 0:00:29.88

You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here.

0:00:30.01 → 0:00:57.01

Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today is a very exciting and special episode as I am joined by Sarah Baldwin. If you don't know Sarah's work, sarah is a somatic experiencing practitioner and trauma coach. She's trained in polyvagal interventions and is on the training team at the Polyvagal Institute. She specialises in somatic, trauma healing, attachment work parts and inner child work and nervous system regulation.

0:00:57.51 → 0:01:31.91

So I'm sure that you can imagine from that introduction in that bio, you can understand why I'm so excited to have Sarah join us here today. We're going to be talking all about the role of the nervous system in influencing, shaping, regulating our emotional experience and how becoming more fluent in our nervous system can really support us to become more empowered in not only our relationships, but our life more broadly. So, Sarah, welcome. Thank you for joining me on the show. Thank you so much for having me.

0:01:31.95 → 0:01:52.12

It is so good to be here with you today and so good to be here with everyone listening. So we've got a lot of ground to cover. Let's dive straight in. I speak about nervous system regulation a little bit on the podcast. It's something that I cover in my online course around anxious attachment.

0:01:52.23 → 0:02:24.43

And to be very honest with you, when I first created that course and included a module on nervous system regulation, I was worried that people's eyes would glaze over, I'd lose people because it might not sound that sexy to people understanding our nervous system. I was always really pleasantly surprised that people came back and said, you know, wow, this, this changes everything. This is really the missing piece. And it is a paradigm shift. And that's certainly been my personal experience as well.

0:02:24.58 → 0:03:04.29

And so I'd love to hear from your perspective why this stuff matters, why people should care about their nervous system. Well, our nervous system, our autonomic nervous system specifically, it is responsible for creating our entire experience of how we perceive the world, ourselves, others. And our entire experience is a result of what's happening inside of this nervous system. And so first and foremost, that's really huge. If there's a system inside of us that has that kind of power over our lives, shouldn't we know about it?

0:03:04.38 → 0:04:13.80

And I say this a lot, but I think it's so fascinating that we learn about outer space and solar systems and black holes and so on and so forth and so many other things, but we are not taught about the system that resides inside of us. Not understanding this system essentially means that we are kind of like put in the backseat and it goes on cruise control and that means we're making choices behaviours and so on, and having choices behaviours, so on and so forth, that are not perhaps things that are of our choice but are of a survival response. What I like to say is that at any given moment there are six states within our autonomic nervous system that we can be residing in. And I think of that like imagine if you had six pairs of glasses that all had different coloured lenses, a rose coloured lens, a dark brown lens, a bright red lens that happened to have frenetic energy moving around in it, a beautiful clear lens. And at any given moment you have one of those lenses on how you are seeing everything, experiencing everything, is depicted by that lens.

0:04:13.91 → 0:04:45.96

And when I say everything, I really mean everything. Meaning our thoughts, our behaviour. So the actions we take, our feelings, things like feeling hopeful, curious, loved, loving, anxious, frustrated, worried, concerned, frozen, trapped, apathetic, depressed. All is dependent on this nervous system, the sensations we feel in our body. So sensations are things like feeling tension or feeling relaxed, feeling numb or feeling here.

0:04:46.09 → 0:05:21.48

All of those things are entirely decided upon by this nervous system. And not just that, but the way in which we connect with other human beings via attachment is directly related to what's happening in our nervous system. So it's really imperative that we understand this system within us because it is the answer to really unlocking the lives that we desire. It is the foundation of all healing. I can explain in a bit what I mean by that, but it's really foundational in our experience as a human being.

0:05:22.49 → 0:05:40.02

Thank you for that. I think it's also, in my experience, the answer to this question of like why am I like this? Or why does this keep happening? In that sense of none of this makes sense. It's like you kind of can step outside of that and go actually, a lot of this makes sense, maybe all of it makes sense.

0:05:40.20 → 0:06:18.69

And I think that that in and of itself can be a really powerful experience. Just to have someone tell you no, there's an explanation for this and there's a system behind it. And understanding that rather than feeling powerless and feeling that, we have all of these conflicting parts with different motives and taking us in different directions which might be very different to the direction that we ultimately want to go. Not understanding why we aren't where we want to be again, whether that's in work or our romantic relationships or anywhere else, our emotional state. Yeah.

0:06:18.73 → 0:07:23.10

So first I just want to say I have a complex trauma history myself and spent most of my life dysregulated and not knowing what was happening or why it was happening or how to change it, or why sometimes I felt okay and sometimes I didn't feel okay and sometimes I felt really not okay. And I didn't understand any of it. And not only that, but the traditional mental health model is set up in a way to make people feel as if something is wrong with them, using words like dysfunctional or maladaptation or treatment resistant anxiety or depression and so on and so forth. And I'm not at all saying that diagnoses can't be helpful, but when we look through a lens of there be or even something like insecure attachment styles, all of these are through lenses of there's something wrong with you and you're deficient and neuroscience and polyvagal theory, it shows us unequivocally that the opposite is true. There is absolutely nothing wrong with us if we are experiencing dysregulation of our nervous system.

0:07:23.15 → 0:07:40.86

In fact, everything is working exactly right. Our system is never confused. It is so incredibly, exquisitely powerful. And as someone who experienced the opposite for so long, it was so good to know that. And that's why I say all the time and have a programme called You Makes Sense.

0:07:40.96 → 0:08:03.61

And I'm writing a book with the title You Make Sense because it is so good to know that we make sense. And if we make sense, that means there's something we can do about it. So, just to explain this, which might be a really new term for a lot of you, your autonomic nervous system, like, what is that? What does that even mean? So within us, each of us, is this brilliant self protective system.

0:08:03.76 → 0:08:29.97

We all have one. In fact, every mammal has one. And any moment we are experiencing one of six places inside of this self protective system. So there are many members of this autonomic system that we have, like members of the team. And I liken it to a special ops team, not for any military affiliation, but because a special ops team in general is the best of the best.

0:08:30.04 → 0:08:47.67

It's very hard to be on a special ops team. And a special ops team has many members, all with very different roles. They don't all have the same role, which is important because there's going to be different things that we need done on the team. Our autonomic nervous system is the same. It is the best of the best.

0:08:47.74 → 0:09:11.61

It is the strongest system within you. Parts of it are 500 million years old and every member has a different job. But they have one mission, just like a special ops team, one primary purpose. And that primary purpose is to keep you safe and alive at all costs. It loves you so much, it will do whatever it takes to make sure that you are alive and okay.

0:09:11.81 → 0:09:36.72

And it does that in the form of Dysregulation. And I'll explain what that is in a second. So the first line of defence, or the first special ops team member, is you can think of as our threat detector. So imagine it standing out in front of you and its whole job is to look out into the world and look inside of you to see is that safe, dangerous or life threatening? Safe, dangerous or life threatening.

0:09:36.78 → 0:10:04.37

And here's the thing. For anyone listening who has felt like you are broken, like you are beyond help, like something is wrong with you, I hope in this episode that you are able to see that. Science says that couldn't be further from the truth, my friend. Because this threat detector, every millisecond of your entire life, every millisecond which is really fast, everyone, it has been looking out into the world from the moment you came into this world saying is that safe, dangerous or life threatening? Is that safe, dangerous or life threatening?

0:10:04.39 → 0:10:16.83

Is that safe, dangerous or life threatening? Is that safe, dangerously threatening? It's doing it right now wherever you are in the world listening to this episode. And that first of all talk about not weak, right? That is really strong.

0:10:17.03 → 0:10:42.26

It also looks internally, which is called interception neuroception. That coin is termed by Stephen Porges is its ability to look outside of us. So you might be saying, well, how does it decide what is safe, dangerous or life threatening? Well, it looks to a database of past information that is inside of each of us. Think of it like if you have your own personal database and inside your own database is every lived experience you've ever had.

0:10:42.36 → 0:11:23.69

You don't have to remember it, it's in the database. And that means the really yummy, wonderful, amazing things are in there. Like the birth of your child, or a wonderful vacation, or laughing with friends, or a wonderful moment family. The not so good experiences like being bullied in school, or a medical procedure that did not go well, or not being heard, seen or known, or the life threatening experiences like neglect, or abuse, or emotional abuse, or racism or sexism or colonialization or whatever kind of traumas you might have experienced, all of them are in there. Not only that, we also have our ancestors experiences, our parents experiences in there.

0:11:23.76 → 0:11:45.50

Unresolved trauma. That's the concept of epigenetics in there as well. So when my threat detector is looking out into the world, like right now I'm looking outside of my office in Los Angeles, California, there's a beautiful tree. And immediately when I looked at the tree, I felt something in my body that said it's nice. I noticed like a smile come on my face and I noticed it felt good.

0:11:45.63 --> 0:12:09.96

The reason being is because in my database there's lots of information of I grew up in the middle of the woods and my home wasn't safe, but the woods were really safe. So anytime I see a tree, my threat detector says that's safe. Now, if let's say I had caregivers whom I was never good enough with and they always, every time I brought a report card home, it was never enough. It was never enough. It was never enough.

0:12:10.01 → 0:12:23.79

For example, let's say you have a boss who says, hey, who's a lovely boss? So nice. They're not like your parents who were so hypercritical and unkind to you. They say, hey, we have to do your quarterly review. Well, guess what happens?

0:12:23.86 → 0:12:39.64

The threat detector says, whoa, we have data about that not being safe. We're going to feel like we're not good enough. We're small. We're also like reminding us of our younger parts, and that's not safe. And so here's what your threat detector does in a millisecond.

0:12:39.67 → 0:13:02.87

It says, what did we need to do back then to maintain safety? And we know you maintain safety because you're here now. And it says, we're going to do the same thing now. That was the right thing. So the threat detector calls in one of six Special Ops team members to do the trick to protect you or to let you be in safety at any given moment.

0:13:02.91 → 0:13:19.32

So let's say let's go to the example of the boss. So your system says, whoa, that's dangerous, but I think we can do something about it. It's dangerous, but not life threatening. Meaning I think we might be able to fight this thing or flee this thing. So in a millisecond, it calls in something called your sympathetic nervous system.

0:13:19.42 → 0:13:38.70

That's a team member of your Special Ops team. So imagine that you had your hands closed in front of you. It's almost like it's like a door closing you off from the external world. And that's what it's like when our sympathetic nervous system or any state of self protection is protecting us. It's blocking us from the bad thing.

0:13:38.88 → 0:13:57.51

And it also the crux of that is it keeps out the things that we desire. So if we're finding ourselves stuck in our lives, that's a clue. I might have a Special Ops team member standing in front of me. So sympathetic is all about the doing. And I'm just going to name some things so folks can hear what that's like, because a lot of you might really know this state.

0:13:57.63 → 0:14:08.18

So let's say a boss is saying, hey, we have to have that talk. And all of a sudden, neuroception threat detector says, hey, that's not safe. Sympathetic, come in. Sympathetic comes in in a millisecond. All of a sudden I feel anxious.

0:14:08.24 → 0:14:13.63

I feel concerned. My heart rate increases. I have racing thoughts like, wait, did I do something wrong? I don't know. Did I not?

0:14:13.67 → 0:14:30.91

I left work 15 minutes early last week and I don't know if I told mine I left work 15 minutes early last week and wait, I don't know did I get the assignments done that I said I was going to do? And all of a sudden I'm sweating and I feel tension in my body and there's tension in my jaw. All of a sudden, my jaw is tight, my neck is tight, my shoulders are up to my face, my ears. Rather, I have tunnel vision. I can't focus on anything else.

0:14:30.95 → 0:14:43.40

I have butterflies in my stomach. I feel like I can't digest food or I'm going to throw up. And there's so much energy in my body, you can probably hear that in my voices. I'm putting this on for you. That's called your sympathetic nervous system and all about the doing.

0:14:43.53 → 0:15:03.56

And we want that system. It's really evolutionarily. A wonderful system to have. For example, just to give you an evolutionary response, or example, let's say a lion was chasing me. My system, my threat detector would say, hey, I think we can do something about this run and get away.

0:15:03.74 → 0:15:33.24

So when we're here, here's what I want listeners to know. What is so extraordinary is this sympathetic system talks to every organ in your body and essentially says not just organ, but chemical release, hormonal release, and says we need everybody to get on the memo of self protection right now because we love this person so much, we need to make sure they're safe. So what happens is your immune system, your system says, do we need our immune system right now if we're running from a theoretical lion? Absolutely not. That shuts down.

0:15:33.29 → 0:15:41.15

Do we need our GI tract functioning properly and digesting food? No way. Shut that down. We don't need that functioning fully. We'll shut it down just to function minimally.

0:15:41.25 → 0:15:53.82

Hey, cortisol and adrenaline. We need you to hike up so that we can sprint away as fast as we possibly can. Thinking brain, prefrontal cortex. Do we need to think and rationalise learn a new language if we're running from a lion? No way.

0:15:53.92 → 0:16:11.18

Liver. Do we need to detoxify properly? No. So all of that extra energy goes to increasing our heart rate, increasing our overall energy in our body so that we can sprint or flee the thing as fast as possible. So this is a brilliant self protective response.

0:16:11.21 → 0:16:34.03

It is one that a lot of people find themselves in. Now, that's not the only self protective response. We have two others. The other is let's imagine the theoretical lion that I just described is no longer, I don't know, 300 yards away, it's 5ft away or a yard away. It's very close.

0:16:34.18 → 0:16:53.77

And so what the threat detector says is it says, woof, this has gotten more dangerous than I thought it was going to be. And team Sympathetic, who's all been about mobilising, running and running, running, you weren't able to properly or able to do. You did your best, but you couldn't get us away from the threat. Not your fault. You did your best that you could.

0:16:53.94 → 0:17:22.71

What I'm going to do is I'm going to call in our most extreme form of self protection called our dorsal vagal complex. Now, this is a different state. Remember I said there's six states, this is the second state or another one of the six states. Imagine it standing in front of you guarding you now, this state's job, and I think this is so beautiful. It comes online when our system is saying, my love, I don't think that I can fight this thing for you.

0:17:22.88 → 0:17:40.33

I can't get rid of it and I can't make it stop. But what I can do is help you to leave your body so that you don't have to feel the perpetual pain of what we can't make go away. When I learned that, I thought, wow, if this is not a loving system, I don't know. It is. It has never let us down.

0:17:40.42 → 0:18:04.07

When other people may have let us down. Your nervous system never ever has, my friend. And so every the beautiful thing is every mammal actually has the ability to access this dorsal system. And for example, the impala that's going to be eaten by the lion. Its system lovingly says, my dear, I can't make this stop, but I can help you leave your body so you don't have to feel the pain of this.

0:18:04.19 → 0:18:25.44

And I just think like wow, we are amazing beings. Like wow, that is so cool. And I'm saying that everyone is someone who spent a couple of decades in this state of dorsal, not in my body. And there's a variety of experience here, so this might sound familiar. Some of this here's what it can look like, feeling apathetic, I don't care.

0:18:25.49 → 0:18:46.88

The things I used to, like, nothing seems enticing or good. Then I start to feel a little out of it and fuzzy. I have low energy. I'm feeling like I can't really think. I'm starting to notice that tasks like folding the laundry, answering emails, doing errands, like, oh, it feels impossible, I just can't do it.

0:18:46.90 → 0:18:58.58

I notice that I'm feeling almost like I'm going into outer space. Like I'm floating away. I feel numb. I can't really feel my body or I'm floating above my body. I feel hopeless.

0:18:58.72 → 0:19:06.55

I feel shame. Something's wrong with me. I can't I'm not capable. I'm not able. I feel depressed.

0:19:06.68 → 0:19:33.70

I feel dissociated levels, that there's levels of dissociation which can leaving your body, which can start by feeling like maybe even like oh, I took a sleeping pill, but I didn't. And I feel out of it and weird and kind of drugged, but I didn't take a drug. So what's going on? I'm just not here in my body. I can't feel my body or my face or all the way to I don't know who I am or I don't think the world is real or I don't remember how I got here today.

0:19:33.75 → 0:19:54.46

That's a very deep level of dissociation. And that is think of it like a bear going into hibernation. Everything is shutting down and everything inside of us shuts down too. All of those internal organs begin to shut down as well as our heart rate and so on and so forth. All to help us leave our body and so that we don't have to feel the perpetual pain of what's happening.

0:19:54.51 → 0:20:30.12

So if we experience neglect as a child, if we experienced work environments that were really toxic, that we felt like we couldn't leave, if we had home environments that were abusive, if we had parents who were fighting all the time, or alcoholics, or they were emotionally unwell themselves, or we were physically harmed, or we experienced so many other things that are life threatening. What occurs as we go to this state? And then there's one more state of dysregulation that we experience, and it's called freeze. Now, freeze is equal parts that sympathetic. The sympathetic is like think of it like a cheetah sprinting off.

0:20:30.17 → 0:20:48.69

It's so much energy, lots and lots of energy. And dorsal is the opposite, bare and hibernation. So we have two equal and opposite forces and they come together equally. One saying I have to, one saying I can't. And so when these forces come together, it creates something called tonic immobility.

0:20:48.79 → 0:21:02.65

So think about it, something that I have folks do. And if you're listening, try this out. Push with both hands equally. Like, put your hands together and push as hard as you can and keep doing that for a few seconds. I'm doing it right now with my hands in front of me.

0:21:02.74 → 0:21:14.37

I'm pushing them together as hard as I can. And what I'm noticing is it takes a lot of effort to do this. I'm feeling a little warm. My heart rate is increasing and I'm going to stop it. But I wanted you all to practise that.

0:21:14.41 → 0:21:25.30

Because when we're in freeze, people think, why didn't I do something? I just stood there. Why didn't I say something? Why didn't I fight back? Why didn't I?

0:21:25.32 → 0:21:34.09

Why didn't I? Why didn't I? Which creates a lot of shame. And what I want you to know is when you're in freeze, your system is doing so much. It takes a lot of energy to be here.

0:21:34.21 → 0:21:53.50

To follow the animal analogy, it's like a deer in headlights. So what it's like is all this energy inside, but I'm frozen, so I'm trapped in it. A couple of simple examples of what that can look like. Let's say you want to step towards something in your life. You want to start a business, and you're like, I really need to start it.

0:21:53.52 → 0:22:03.95

And I feel behind and I really need to get going. And you sit at your computer and you're like, I have 75 million things that I want to start and do. I start with hiring this person or this person or doing this or doing this. I mean, there's so many things to do. What did that person do when they started their business?

0:22:03.99 → 0:22:10.66

I don't know. And then all of a sudden, I feel blank and overwhelmed and I'm like, I just need to go to bed. This is too much. I can't do this. I can't do this.

0:22:10.76 → 0:22:15.06

It's too much. No, but I need to do this. No, but I can't do this. No, but I need to do this. No, but I can't do it.

0:22:15.08 → 0:22:43.26

And then you're like find yourself organising your junk draw for the 12th time because you just can't seem to step towards the thing. But all you do is think about stepping towards the thing that you can't seem to step towards. That is a classic experience of being in this state of freeze. Simple example you get a text from someone that's kind of hard to read and you think I really need to respond back, but you're like yeah, I'll do that later, I really need to do it now, I'll do it later. And you think about doing it for 8 hours, but you don't actually do it and you're exhausted by that experience.

0:22:43.36 → 0:23:05.06

That is a self protective state of free. Those are the three states of Dysregulation in our nervous system. And again, when we're in those states, the only reason you are there is because your nervous system doesn't think you're safe. That's the only reason. Now you may be wondering well, I'm safe now why is it doing that?

0:23:05.16 → 0:23:48.76

And the reason it's doing that, if you do find yourself in safety, meaning like it's safe to start that business, it's safe to use my voice, it's safe to be seen, it's safe to be vulnerable, it's safe to take up space, it's safe to have desires or whatever. That's because your database has information about how that wasn't safe in the past. So every time you go to step towards something similar in your present life, the threat detector says that's not safe. And so part of understanding this nervous system, or why nervous system regulation is so important, is because if we have a database filled with experiences in the past where people weren't safe, being seen wasn't safe, belonging wasn't safe. Being in my body wasn't safe, being present wasn't safe and so on and so forth.

0:23:48.89 → 0:24:30.48

Anytime something similar happens in my current life, my nervous system via my threat detector is going to say that's not safe and an immediate occurrences. I experienced what's called Dysregulation or one of those three states of self protection. I just did a lot of talking, I could explain the state of regulation, but I hope that's beginning to make sense for folks of why we experience this. Thanks Sarah, I really appreciate all of that. And as you were talking, the thing that really struck me is that understanding that is such a portal to compassion both towards ourselves, but also to other people and particularly people who we might be in relationship with.

0:24:30.66 → 0:25:40.26

As you were describing the experience of that dorsal state, I couldn't help but think of that classic anxious avoidant dance and how for a lot of anxious people who spend a lot of time in that sympathetic I've got to do something, do something, do something very activated mobilised state. And those protective mechanisms of moving towards and if they are with a more avoidant leaning partner who tends towards more of a dorsal response of this I'm out of options. Just like how can I vacate? Because I feel kind of defenceless against this and how those responses can just be really at odds and from each person's perspective. The other person's response is such a cue for danger for the person in sympathetic who's desperate for engagement and connection via even if it's via conflict, the person whose system is taking them out, that feels really dangerous and so can just trigger an escalation.

0:25:40.40 → 0:26:26.02

But for the person who's endorsel, who feels like there's a lion coming towards them, it's just impossible. And so I think that it's so useful for people to understand not only their own system but to start to be more attuned to the cues in other people's systems and going, okay, what might be going on for them? How might they be experiencing me as well as what's going on in my system and what do I need? Yeah, it is so important to understand that. That's why I say I do a lot of somatic attachment work and the foundation of all of it that I quickly realised in my work around the nervous system is oh well, you can't do attachment work unless you're doing nervous system work.

0:26:26.20 → 0:27:05.07

The way that we attach is entirely based in our nervous system which is why for any listener who's read like for example, the book Attached, maybe it's the most famous one although I like John Bowlby's book, I mean, both are great but that's a little more dense. But anyway, you read a book and you're like oh, that you got an AHA moment. Ah, that makes sense. But it doesn't actually create any change in your life because that all in books are wonderful but they're cognitive meaning it's giving me understanding of things. But it's really important to understand about your nervous system and how you show up in your relationships is your nervous system is subcortical and that means it lives in your body, not in your thinking brain.

0:27:05.20 → 0:27:48.25

Your nervous system does not understand a verbal language because it doesn't reside where your verbal thinking, your prefrontal cortex, which is in your brain, resides. And this is why we can learn a lot of things but then it doesn't actually affect change in our lives. So the more that we can become get in the driver's seat of our nervous system, the more it changes everything. And what you mentioned about having compassion for or at the very least understanding for what's happening in other people's systems is so imperative because just to quickly name for listeners, here how intricate this system is that I just described. Remember, we all have a database, so what happens when we come into relational dynamics?

0:27:48.30 → 0:27:56.98

A lot of people have had this experience where you meet someone and you're like I feel like. I've known them forever. I'm so drawn to them. I am so attracted to them. I don't know why.

0:27:57.03 → 0:28:15.87

I feel like, how could I possibly live life without them, even though you've only known them for three weeks. And here is why. There's an actual reason for that. Remember, we all have a database, right? And the threat detector's job, it's really its job is to not only suss out danger for you, but it's to say, what does this remind me of?

0:28:15.94 → 0:28:24.60

That's what it's doing all the time. What does this tree remind me of? What does Sarah's voice remind me of? What does the sun right now remind me of? What does this man remind me of?

0:28:24.62 → 0:28:37.92

This woman, this person? And so on and so forth. Anyway, so it looks to the database. So when it comes to love and relationships, guess what it looks to first? It looks to the database and says, what intel do we have on that?

0:28:38.02 → 0:29:02.09

And it looks to your earliest childhood experiences and says, that's the information we have on what love is. Okay? Love is the experience of let's say I'm anxiously attached. My experience of love is I'm just making a possibility up. I have a caregiver who is preoccupied with working all the time or they are not fully available to see me.

0:29:02.24 --> 0:29:11.91

That's what love is. So that's all our system knows. That's what love is. So guess what happens? I meet this person and they are what we would call the word workaholic.

0:29:11.96 → 0:29:48.02

They are really preoccupied with their work. And so my system says, oh, I feel like I've known you forever. I'm so drawn to you because neuroception is saying, you remind me of my childhood and that is what love is. Now, the other person's, Neuroceptive response says, I've got a database too, and in it I have let's say I had a caregiver who was not regulated themselves and whose young parts were looking for me to help them. Maybe the relational dynamic was my mother was looking for me to emotionally soothe her instead of looking to her partner.

0:29:48.16 → 0:29:55.47

And so that's what I have on this database. And she was really anxious a lot. And then I meet you. Whoa. That's what I know.

0:29:55.62 → 0:30:23.98

That is what I'm drawn to. So now we have one person who's avoidant, one person who is anxiously attached coming together, which is the most common combination. Why are they coming together, though, based on what's in that database? That's the whole thing. So we come together and guess what transpires when an occurrence happens, like, let's say an argument occurs, my threat detector says, what intel do I have on arguments?

0:30:24.01 → 0:30:43.13

I'll give another example. The avoidant person says, whoa, I have information about how people harm you. People hurt you. They either emotionally hurt you or they physically hurt you. And so what I learned to do as a child was become an island because there was no one to help me or the people that were there to help me were dangerous.

0:30:43.25 → 0:31:00.93

And so when a fight occurs, my system I'm not doing that. My system takes over like autopilot, and it says, my love, I have to pull you to the island. People aren't safe. And this is reminding me of that. And in a millisecond, we're pulled to that island where we retreat, we shut off.

0:31:01.00 → 0:31:25.85

We feel like we just have to get away now. The anxiously attached person says, whoa, I have intel on being abandoned as a child. And so my system says, I need to do whatever I can to make you stay. And all of a sudden, my sympathetic system comes in and says, what did I need to do back then? Oh, disregard your own needs, disregard your own feelings, say things, just be good, and maybe we can get them to come back.

0:31:25.92 → 0:31:56.19

So we say things like, oh, it doesn't matter, I don't even care. Let's just come back into connection, because I just need us to be connected in order for me to be okay. And in that experience, I call it the island and the speedboat. So the more I go to my island, the more I get in my speedboat and drive to your island, which makes me want to dig a hole in my island and go underneath the island to get away from you, and I want to get even closer to you. And we're in this dynamic which is all rooted in Dysregulation and what's happening in those receptacles.

0:31:56.32 → 0:32:15.13

And not only that, but when this occurs, we essentially are transported back to younger parts of ourselves. So we're no longer in that adult self. It's whatever was in that receptacle. Our threat detector says, this reminds me I was eight. So it's as if we time travel back to being eight.

0:32:15.28 → 0:32:33.95

And this is why, if you've ever been in a situation where you feel like, small, scared, out of control in a relationship, and then later when you feel better, you think, I can't believe I did that. I can't believe I said that. What was going on? Well, it wasn't you. It was your nervous system and a younger part of you.

0:32:34.07 → 0:33:00.35

And so the foundation of our relational experiences, really the foundation of everything, is this nervous system, because that's what's driving how we show up in our relational dynamics. And the more to your point is we can see, oh, them going to their island actually has nothing to do with me. It has to do with what happened to them in the past. And going to that island in the past was the right choice. It was the best choice that they could possibly find.

0:33:00.44 → 0:33:31.28

But that doesn't mean they don't care about me, love me, and so on and so forth. Or this person that's coming towards me doesn't want to control me. They want to feel in control because it can be experienced as that person wants to control me? No, it's because they feel so out of control inside that's why that's occurring, that those behavioural responses. So the more we can see that, the more that it decreases or at least doesn't increase the activation we feel about like wow, you don't care about me or you are trying to suffocate me or whatever.

0:33:31.41 → 0:34:20.58

We can see where it's actually rooted in and not only that, but can say hey, we need to pause and regulate our nervous systems before trying to have this conversation because otherwise we won't even be able to hear each other when we're dysregulated. Our thinking brain isn't working, which is why it feels like you're going round and round in a conversation without hearing each other because you're not hearing each other when you're dysregulating. Yeah, I love that. And I think the image of the speedboat and the island will really resonate with people for me. I've done a lot of work on it, but certainly Lean anxious, and the urgency when you're needing to reach someone that feels like they're slipping away and the sense of emotional abandonment in those moments can feel.

0:34:21.43 → 0:35:16.84

I think the story that a lot of anxious people will relate to is how could you abandon me in this moment when I need you most, when I am escalated and emotional and I'm reaching for you? But it is that thing of the tendency to make the other person's behaviour about you when it really has very little to do with you. And I think that the more we can see that try and step into an observer kind of role, not only does that help us to make better decisions and to regulate and create the space to do that, but I think that for me, at least, even the act of pausing to go, oh, okay, look, I'm getting really activated. That in and of itself is settling to my system because it feels like you're less consumed by the experience and you're able to witness yourself in it a little more. I'd be curious to get your take on in that example.

0:35:17.45 → 0:35:57.23

What would you say to people who feel like they spin around in that cycle? Pretty reliably, which I think without the knowledge and the tools is likely where you will go if those are the patterns in your relationship. You mentioned pausing and that's certainly the advice that I give people is nothing good is going to come of that when one or both of you is dysregulated and likely if one of you is, the other will follow soon thereafter. So pausing I think is a really big one. I think again, for anxious people they may tell themselves the story of that's just giving the avoidant person what they want and what about me?

0:35:57.27 → 0:36:30.85

And so my advice is space with boundaries. So let's take a break for 30 minutes and then agree to come back. And I think that that is kind to both people's system. What would you sort of counsel people on how to manage those dynamics and how best to regulate their system so that they can have conversations, challenging conversations, in a safe way? Yeah, well, first I just want to validate for both parties, it feels like life or death because for a child, that when we're born, we don't have the ability to self regulate.

0:36:30.95 → 0:36:56.89

What that essentially means is it is not physically possible for a child to regulate themselves or calm themselves down when they are dysregulated. The crying it out method actually just brings a kid into dorsal. It doesn't actually regulate them. When a child is in that state of distress with no one there to help regulate them. What a child needs is someone who is in what's called their state of ventral.

0:36:56.94 → 0:37:36.91

So that's our state of regulation. Who picks the child up and doesn't get scared about the child's dysregulation, doesn't say, oh my gosh, you're just so scary, but instead holds them, maybe does something somatically like sways and pass them on the back. And what's called mirror neurons, the adult's nervous system, calms the child's nervous system down. Now, what we know in research around attachment shows is we needed that 30% of the time in order for us to have what's called a secure attachment, which means relationships are to distil it down, filled with relative ease. For us, we feel safe in them, we feel safe with distance and also closeness.

0:37:37.07 → 0:38:04.20

Now, for many of us, we did not get that. And so as a result, what transpires is therein lies the anxious attachment or avoidant or disorganised. So what occurs is when we have a rupture or an argument occur, it's as if we've time travelled to being that infant again. And so you used really interesting words like how could you do this to me? Or those weren't your exact words, but essentially, how could you pull away or do this to me when I need you most?

0:38:04.33 → 0:38:28.67

And what I want listeners, if you say you find yourself saying that that is a young part of you who is saying that to your caregiver, not to your partner. I know it seems like you're saying it to your partner, but where is that rooted in? It is rooted in your childhood. It actually has nothing to do with your caregiver. Not that we don't not and I'm not letting someone off the hook for just disappearing, but why is this here in the first place?

0:38:28.79 → 0:39:08.80

Because a young part of you is present in your body. And here's the thing, I think it's just maybe hard to hear, but really important for listeners to hear that there is no amount of an adult in our lives picking that young part of us up that will ever be enough. So if you're looking for your partner to change and be this really perfect partner, it still wouldn't be enough. My friend and the reason being is because only we can become what I call the primary parent to our young parts. But most people are looking for their partner to pick the young part up, rescue me, save me from this experience.

0:39:09.25 → 0:39:44.93

And it can be helpful for a little bit like a band aid, but it'll just come back again and again. And now I'm in a codependent dynamic. And what we can do, and what I want you to know that this can change, is the more you regulate your nervous system and you become what I call a competent protector. So the adult self, you've got the adult self of you present. What we can begin to do is when we notice this younger part showing up, I can do things to help them to regulate, just like I would with a scared kid, the same exact thing, so that I'm turning towards them and picking them up.

0:39:45.02 → 0:40:09.81

And then my partner can be what I call the secondary parent. So it's not that we don't want our partners help, but not that we're looking for them to rescue us anymore, because they can't ever do it. It's not possible. And that creates a codependent dynamic. So what I would say is, in these dynamics, the work of someone who's anxiously attached is my job is to build my capacity for what's called self regulation.

0:40:10.47 → 0:40:36.98

Co regulation is connecting to other people. To regulate self regulation is learning that I can also regulate with me. And so what I want you to do is what's really important is we don't just practise this when we're in a fight, because that's like if I was a firefighter, but never practised the drills and just went into there's a fire and I had to figure out how to fight fire, I wouldn't be able to do that. They practise, right? So we need to practise when we're not experiencing arguments or fights.

0:40:37.04 → 0:41:06.33

And the practising of someone who's anxiously attached is I want to start seeing, can I do things that can bring my nervous system into regulation? So throughout the day, it might be something like maybe some humming or tapping or swaying or shaking or I'm going to go on a walk by myself. And I've got lots I'm sure you do, to Stephanie. Lots of therapeutic tools that I give folks that are somatic in nature. But there's different things we can do to show our nervous system, hey, I'm safe, and we do that ourselves.

0:41:06.46 → 0:41:35.11

So we want to build our capacity to do that, so that when we're in a relationship, we can tolerate space. And we know that regardless of what's happening in the relationship, I've got you little parts, I'm not going anywhere. So someone who is avoidant, your job is to practise coming off the island, that's not going to feel good at first. So that's called practising co regulation. And we want to do that outside of arguments, like, can I step towards closeness, can I step towards intimacy?

0:41:35.16 → 0:41:47.76

When someone says, how was your day? Instead of just saying it was fine, how was yours? Expand on that. How was your day? When someone says, hey, I want to share vulnerably or intimately with you, instead of saying, how can we do that later?

0:41:47.81 → 0:42:14.90

Can I lean into that a little bit? Or asking for help and so on and so forth, can I lean off the island going on a walk with a friend? And so on and so forth, all of that shows my system connection is safe. So that is what I would say the most important. That's what I focus on because otherwise I'm trying to put a fire out or put a bandaid on without ever practising or building my capacity, which means I'll never be able to change the dynamic.

0:42:14.96 → 0:42:41.50

So that is the most important. And then during the actual argument or experience of a rupture, what I recommend is, number one, remembering this is their nervous system, not them. This is their nervous system right now. And a younger part of them is present, just like a younger part of me is present. And that when you can talk about that, when you're both regulated like, hey, what do you notice happens for you?

0:42:41.60 → 0:43:02.24

And here's what happens for me. And even having a code word, like it doesn't have to be even a big code word. It just could be a phrase like, I think we're both no longer in regulation, or I'm in my speedboat, are you on your island? Or whatever, you can use terms like that, that clue you into. We're both dysregulated.

0:43:02.35 → 0:43:36.83

And so what's necessary is and what I recommend is the avoidant person who needs to go to the island. Otherwise, if they try to force themselves to stay, they're just going to become more shut down. And so them saying and having a word that they say or a phrase they say, I love you and I need to go to the island right now so that I can get myself back. So what I'm doing is I'm extending to you a connection. I love you and I need to go to my island and let's Cheque in in 20 minutes or whatever and see if we can talk about it now.

0:43:36.92 → 0:44:12.41

And the sympathetic or anxiously attached person, your job, which is very important, is to see what can I do to tolerate the space and needed for you to begin to be able to tolerate that space. And how can I comfort these young parts of me which can include connecting with other people as well during that time. And then I just like to say, if the 20 minutes, if the avoidant person is still not back online and regulated, then we want to say, okay, can we try again in 20 minutes? We don't want to say we have to now. So sympathetic person is probably going to say no, but you said 20 minutes.

0:44:12.53 → 0:44:35.89

And the problem with that is if our nervous systems don't have choice, we need choice, it creates Dysregulation. So if we feel like we're trapped in a cage or we're cornered, we will just become Dysregulated. So that we need to have that consistent checking in, but not that like you have to now because that will just increase Dysregulation too. Thank you for that. I love what you say.

0:44:35.93 → 0:45:10.27

And that point I think is really important, that for an anxious person, you're not regulating for them, you're regulating for you. And I think that particularly when the experience or the story might be, what do I need? I need connection with them. That's a quite disempowering place to live, right? To not be able to give ourselves any of that, to be able to self source a sense of safety, to be solely reliant on, I have to tether to this person, otherwise I'm not going to be okay.

0:45:10.47 → 0:45:46.02

And so I think that as you describe being able to be with the discomfort of space and increasing our capacity to hold that, that's not just giving them what they want. That is really important work for you and building your capacity. Yeah, it is the work for someone. It is the most important thing. And that's the beautiful thing I think about all healing work is something one of my mentors, Peter Levine, says, the creator of somatic experiencing.

0:45:46.13 → 0:46:06.20

He says it's never too late to have the childhood we deserve. There's other folks who say similar sayings, but what that really means is the more I do trauma work and somatic work, the more it's very clear to me time is not linear. We are travelling time all the time, anytime you're activated. And it doesn't have to do with there's not present danger in your life. That's a clue.

0:46:06.23 → 0:46:34.74

You've travelled time. In our relationships, we're travelling to the past all the time. So if we can travel back there, meaning I feel like I'm eight years old again or two years old again, then we can also bring our adult selves back to those young parts and finally give them what our caregivers couldn't give them. And when that occurs, my friend, when that happens, we imprint a new childhood experience. And as a result of that, we get what I call an internal secure attachment.

0:46:34.93 → 0:47:04.72

Now my young parts no longer feel unsafe and they no longer are choosing partners or staying in relationships that don't really serve them because they're safe with me. So now I'm making choices in my relationship based on my truth, instead of making choices or with partners based on survival. And it makes everything a whole heck of a lot easier and it all comes within. So yeah, that work is not for the other person, that is for you. Yeah, I love that.

0:47:04.74 → 0:47:31.31

And I think that emphasis on choice is so important. It's like when we're in fear, we feel like we don't have choice. It's like it's life or death, and I'm going to be trapped, and I'm going to be stuck. No matter where you sit on the spectrum, that tends to be the undertone of that experience and resourcing our systems and reminding ourselves we're not there anymore. We're here and now, and we have choice.

0:47:31.81 → 0:48:07.45

We have agency. It always feels like it's me or them. It's my way or their way, right or wrong, villain, victim. It's like, what are the million other possibilities that sit in between those extremes? And I think the more time we can spend in regulation, the more steps we can take towards that, the more those possibilities become available to us, and we can start taking steps towards those because I think that messy middle ground is really where healthy relationships live, rather than at battling between extremes.

0:48:08.11 → 0:48:20.43

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Beautifully said. So I would love to ask you just one more question before we wrap up, if you have time. Something that I get asked a lot is around self trust.

0:48:20.50 → 0:49:06.17

And for people who have really struggled in relationships in the past, perhaps they have really been hurt. That threat detector is very sensitive, and so people might go, okay, when I become really activated, I'm so convinced that there's something wrong, how do I know if that's my system legitimately warning me of a real threat or whether I'm being paranoid, I'm reacting to nothing. How do I know the difference? And what would be your advice for people in navigating that experience and how to respond to that? Well, when we are in that, our system is always going to think that whatever we are experiencing is true and based on what's happening presently.

0:49:06.25 → 0:49:29.44

And here's why. Because when, as I mentioned before, the threat detector, how that works. Like, let's say you haven't heard back from your partner, they're 30 minutes late to getting home, and you had a caregiver who had an affair at work, or even an ex partner who had an affair at work. And you know that your spouse is really fond of a coworker in a very, maybe appropriate way. But we're fond of people.

0:49:29.57 → 0:49:53.25

And all of a sudden, guess what your system does? It looks to the receptacle, and it says, that means they're having an affair and I can't trust them. And this is really bad. And in a millisecond, you're no longer going to be in the present moment thinking of your partner, but you're going to be with that ex partner that cheated on you, or you're going to be in that childhood with that caregiver who had multiple affairs and was never around. And so I'm not in the present moment anymore.

0:49:53.30 → 0:50:11.31

I am back in that experience. And if I asked you in those past experiences, hey, is this truly happening right now? You would say, yeah, it is happening because it was happening. And so that's what occurs when we're dysregulated. So we don't want to ask ourselves, what is my truth right now when we are in that heightened state of Dysregulation?

0:50:11.47 → 0:50:34.13

Instead, what I want you to do is say to yourself, my whole job right now is to get regulated. And I need to do we would need a lot more time to talk about how to regulate. But regulation is I like to say it's a game of show, not tell. We cannot talk our way into it. We have to show our nervous system that we are safe and we are in the present moment because it doesn't understand a verbal language.

0:50:34.18 → 0:50:59.42

Which is why if you've been anxious and you told yourself, just calm down or you're fine, doesn't help. But there are things we can do to regulate. And then when you're feeling more like you, which means you're regulated, you feel present here, capable, able, which might be later that day or the next day, I want you to ask yourself a simple thing and just say, did my reaction match the circumstance of what was happening? Did my reaction match the circumstance? Lovingly ask yourself that.

0:50:59.52 → 0:51:21.90

Not with like, talking yourself out of reality, but just curious. And if I said to myself, you know what, that level of panic didn't seem to match the 30 minutes, or my level of rage didn't seem to match the 30 minutes. Now doesn't let them off the hook. Feeling annoyed or frustrated would match the circumstance. But that level, did that match?

0:51:22.35 → 0:51:38.76

No. So then I want to ask myself, okay, what does this remind me of? If I think about this, have I ever felt this way before? Because that's clueing you into what this is predominantly actually about. If you say, oh, it feels like when I was a little kid, that's who's showing up.

0:51:38.78 → 0:52:04.40

That's what this is predominantly about. That's important because that's the part that needs your help. And then I want to ask yourself, okay, so based on this adult me, that's present now, what do I feel about what happened? Because that's going to tell you how much of the response is actually based in the present. And if you say, that's not okay, yeah, that really isn't okay to me, and I need to know what's going on more or I need to know where they are.

0:52:04.42 → 0:52:34.73

You can't just disappear when you said you're going to be home 30 minutes earlier. And then I can communicate. That need for myself is really helpful so that I can tease out, what's about the past? What's about the present? And then lastly, what we want to do with our adult selves is I invite folks like in that example infidelity to want you to write down, I call it an evidence journal, all the actual data you have of your partner being a safe person, that they're not like that partner in the past or that caregiver.

0:52:34.81 → 0:53:04.67

And I want you to go back to it and as you read it, I want you to feel it in your body, all the evidence you have of how they are different, which helps show your system in that database. They're different, they're different, they're different. So those are the exercises that I like to give folks, just basic ones that can help support when having that kind of experience. Thanks, Sarah. I'm sure that will be really helpful for people because I think in those moments, to have a level of an action plan can be really supportive.

0:53:04.85 → 0:53:37.68

Yeah, you're totally right. So important to have. Okay, well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining me. This has been incredibly helpful, informative, insightful. I have no doubt that for everyone listening, it's going to really offer some powerful reframes on understanding yourself, understanding others, and hopefully really empowering you to take steps towards greater self knowing and being able to build our capacity to be with our range of experiences.

0:53:37.74 → 0:53:55.94

And, as we've said, really step into the driver's seat of that, rather than feeling like we're at the mercy of an unruly horse that's bolted. So, Sarah, thank you so much. Where can people find you if they want to go deeper with you and your work and your programmes? Thank you. First of all, thank you so much for having me.

0:53:55.96 → 0:54:17.79

It's been such an honour to be here. And for anyone listening, I'm so glad we could spend this time together. You can find me@sarahbaldwincoaching.com, you can also find me on Instagram. I do lots of free teaching and events on there at Sarabcoaching. Those are the two places and you can find all of my courses and programmes in either place.

0:54:17.99 → 0:54:28.66

Amazing. And we will link all of that in the show notes for anyone who's interested. Sarah, thank you so much for joining me. Everyone who's listening, thank you so much for joining us. I'll see you again next time.

0:54:31.35 → 0:54:53.98

Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.