How to Care Less About Others' Opinions (For the Recovering People Pleaser)
Are you feeling stuck in the perennial battle between seeking external validation and staying true to your authentic self? In today's Q&A episode, I'm sharing some thoughts on how to detach from unhealthy people-pleasing behaviours that ask us to trade our authenticity for belonging and approval.
Are you feeling stuck in the perennial battle between seeking external validation and staying true to your authentic self? In today's Q&A episode, I'm sharing some thoughts on how to detach from unhealthy people-pleasing behaviours that ask us to trade our authenticity for belonging and approval.
This episode challenges you to take a deeper look into your people pleasing tendencies, learn to channel them more intentionally, and cultivate self-worth and self-respect. The goal? To build an internal foundation that allows us to handle criticism and rejection without losing our sense of self.
Listen in as we explore the importance of cultivating conscious awareness around our patterns, discuss how to become more comfortable with who you are, and share practical tips to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships.
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Join the waitlist for Healing Anxious Attachment
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.09 → 0:00:42.93
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. You hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I am answering the question of how do I stop caring about other people's opinions so much as someone who is a recovering people pleaser.
0:00:43.06 → 0:01:51.85
So I'm sure that this is a question that a lot of people, myself included, will relate to, because I think, to varying degrees, all of us struggle with that tussle between not wanting to be overly reliant on external. Validation or shaping ourselves around what we think will get us the approval and acceptance of others while also not losing ourselves in the process. And I think it is yet another area where there's a bit of mess and a bit of nuance. So I'm hoping that in today's episode I can share some thoughts on that and share some tips on how to build up a stronger sense of self so that we are more resilient to the feedback of others, while not swinging too far in the other direction of totally insulating ourselves and having a false bravado around, not caring what other people think at all. Because I think that to the extent people purport to be completely immune to other people's feedback and opinions and criticism, I think that's maybe not totally honest because I think most of us do care about what other people think to varying degrees.
0:01:51.93 → 0:02:13.75
So that's what I'm going to be chatting through today. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. The first being that healing, anxious attachment, which many of you would know is my signature course, is opening up again for enrollment later this month. It's an eight week course. Over 1000 people have gone through the programme and it will be back.
0:02:13.82 → 0:02:50.04
This will be the fifth time I'll be running it. I know that a lot of you are already on the waitlist, but if you are interested in joining, do sign up to the Waitlist via the link in the Show Notes because that will guarantee you early bird pricing and first access when doors open towards the end of the month. So jump into the link in the Show Notes or head straight to my website if you're interested in learning more about the programme and joining that waitlist. The second quick announcement is just to share the featured review today, which is a best friend advice in my ears. This podcast has been a comforting resource to turn to whenever I'm feeling anxious, confused or doubt.
0:02:50.07 → 0:03:12.58
For the last ten months, I've been moving through the toughest long term breakup I've ever experienced. Stephanie and her coming words and advice have been invaluable to me on this heart, healing journey. Thanks for allowing me to better understand my attachment style and assisting me in my personal growth. Thank you so much for that beautiful and heartfelt review. It's really lovely to hear and I'm so glad that you found some solace in the podcast.
0:03:12.72 → 0:03:49.87
If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around how do I stop caring about other people's opinions as a recovering people pleaser. So maybe we take a step back to start and look at what people pleasing is like so many of our behaviours, whether we like them or not, people pleasing is a protective strategy. It's one that we've learned somewhere along the way because a part of us is afraid of what would happen if people didn't like us. And that's pretty primal.
0:03:49.92 → 0:04:27.06
I think that we're very social animals, social creatures and we are wired for connection and belonging. Those are pretty base needs of us as humans. And so it makes sense that it would feel important to our sense of safety that we are part of the in crowd, right? That we have a sense of social cohesion and acceptance and belonging. And I think that people pleasing can emerge from that fundamental need as a way to try and manage those dynamics and create a sense of safety for us via the acceptance of the group.
0:04:27.43 → 0:05:11.30
Now, as always, my personal view is not one that is black and white. So I don't think we have to say people pleasing is bad. I think rather, we can look at the ways in which it helps us and the ways in which it gets in the way of our authentic expression and authentic connection with people to the extent that we are performing. Or representing a false view of ourselves or suppressing parts of us that we fear would hinder that pursuit of getting accepted by the group. So I think that having that perspective of not people pleasing is bad and it's something that I need to stop because I'm such a terrible people pleaser.
0:05:11.41 → 0:06:12.45
I think that in some circumstances being sensitive to and attuned to what is going to contribute to social harmony or cohesion or is going to allow us to build a relationship or is going out of our way to be helpful to someone. Those are not inherently bad traits or behaviours, we just need to channel them deliberately as with all of these things. So the more we can bring conscious awareness to and intentionality to the ways in which we utilise these behaviours, I think the better off will be. So then this question of how do I stop caring about other people's opinions as a recovering people pleaser? I think at the heart of this is how can I become more comfortable and self assured in who I am and the choices that I make such that I am less prone to meltdown if I get feedback from someone or criticism from someone or rejection.
0:06:13.27 → 0:06:48.91
That really shakes me to my core because I think that if we've taken people pleasing to the extreme such that we don't really have a very defined sense of self, we don't know within us who am I, what do I care about? What do I think? What are my opinions? What are my values? If we've spent a lifetime shape shifting and deferring to the opinions and values and needs and preferences of everyone around us in this tireless effort to be accepted and approved of, then we don't really have much of a foundation within ourselves.
0:06:49.57 → 0:07:31.19
And I think that can lead to a level of loneliness and self abandonment that can be really challenging. Because when we've totally outsourced that sense of self and validation and we don't have that internal relationship, then of course if someone does reject us or disapprove of us, it's going to feel incredibly high stakes, right? Because we've put 100% of our self worth in the hands of something outside of us. So I think that cultivating self worth and self respect as always. It's almost like all roads lead back to that, right?
0:07:31.23 → 0:08:13.58
You would have heard me speak about that many times before on the podcast. If we can have enough of a foundation within ourselves, that we know what our values are, we know what our boundaries are, we stand up for ourselves, we advocate for ourselves. We are kind and thoughtful and considerate and sensitive and all of those traits that are positive while also not losing ourselves in the process. Then if someone doesn't like it, it might be uncomfortable, right? It's not to say that if we just develop self worth, then all of a sudden we're this super duper confident person who is not at all impacted by the thoughts or opinions of others.
0:08:14.19 → 0:09:14.41
But we have a bit. More distance from it, and we have a stronger base from which we can say, oh, okay, that feels uncomfortable, but it's not completely destroying my sense of self. I'm not going to spiral into a really dark, shame ridden place because I'm not taking some other person's opinion as definitive of who I am. And I think that that is what happens when we don't have enough of an internal anchor is that if someone says that we are, whatever, not attractive enough or smart enough or they don't like us, usually when that has a really deep impact, it's because it's confirming our worst fears about ourselves, right? When we take someone else's opinion and we use it as evidence in support of the stories and the wounds that are very deep within us, that's when it feels very high stakes and very earth shattering.
0:09:14.49 → 0:10:12.38
So I think the more we can build up that self relationship and the more that we can tend to those wounded parts within us that have those fears of nobody likes me, I'm a failure, I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm an imposter, I'm not whatever. The more we can tend to those wounds within ourselves, the less likely we are to be really deeply affected by the thoughts or opinions of other people to the extent that they get at those core wounds. So it's not about how can I have this, as I said, like a false bravado or this veneer of I don't care what anyone thinks, because I don't really buy that. I think that most people who purport to be totally immune to being affected by other people's opinions are not being totally honest. And I think that's okay.
0:10:12.43 → 0:11:04.90
I think we can hopefully get to a place where, as always, we find our way to the middle, where I have enough of a sense of self that I'm comfortable with who I am and I'm comfortable with my choices and my behaviours. But I'm not so defensive that I need to shut out all criticism or feedback, right? Because that's not healthy either, if we're so rigid that we can't take any of it because that feels too challenging or too uncomfortable. It's just the other extreme. So we really want to find our way to this place of a strong enough foundation that we're comfortable with who we are, while also being able to selectively take on feedback and criticism and influence from other people who we trust and whose opinion we value.
0:11:05.27 → 0:11:54.67
But that level of discernment and openness comes with internal security. And so it all really does lead back to this need to cultivate self worth and self respect. And as I said, I've spoken about that a lot on the podcast, because I really do think that it's not only incredibly powerful in your relationship with yourself, but it's really practical. Unlike something like self love, which can feel a little abstract and out of reach for most people, things like self respect and self worth are much more concrete in that we can translate them into action and those actions compound over time and we can really see a lot of progress very quickly. So I hope that that has helped you in giving a bit of a sense of what that might look like.
0:11:54.87 → 0:12:35.03
Not so much stopping caring about other people's opinions, but not being so easily swayed or so susceptible to melt down at rejection or challenging feedback in a way that really rocks you to your core and fundamentally alters your sense of self worth. So I do hope that that has been helpful, as always. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be super grateful if you could leave a rating or a review, share it on social media. All of those things are hugely helpful for me in continuing to grow the podcast and reach more people. But otherwise, I look forward to seeing you again next week.
0:12:35.12 → 0:12:36.08
Thanks, guys.
0:12:38.13 → 0:13:00.26
Thanks for joining me for this episode of on attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
The Art of Secure Relating with Stan Tatkin
In today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by the one & only Stan Tatkin, PsyD, MFT. Stan is a clinician, researcher, teacher, and developer of PACT (a Psychobiological Approach to Couple Therapy), as well as being a prolific author of several best-selling books such as Wired for Love and most recently, In Each Other's Care. Stan joins me to chat with me about how we can experience conflict within relationships in a safe way and really build secure foundations in our relationships.
In today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by the one & only Stan Tatkin, PsyD, MFT. Stan is a clinician, researcher, teacher, and developer of PACT (a Psychobiological Approach to Couple Therapy), as well as being a prolific author of several best-selling books such as Wired for Love and most recently, In Each Other's Care.
In this episode, Stan joins me to chat with me about how we can experience conflict within relationships in a safe way and really build secure foundations in our relationships.
We'll cover:
How launching into self-protecting patterns can harm our relationships
The concept of secure functioning in a relationship
How regret can be a powerful teacher
The concept of the couple bubble
Finding acceptance for our partner's imperfections
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.09 → 0:00:33.76
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Stan Tatkin.
0:00:33.90 → 0:01:00.46
If you don't know Stan, he is an author, a rather prolific author and couples therapist. He's also the founder or co creator of the Pact Institute. And today we're going to be talking all about conflict in relationships and how we can experience conflict in a safe way and really build secure foundations in our relationships so that we can grow together through conflict. Stan, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.
0:01:00.59 → 0:01:16.90
Thank you, Stephanie. It's really nice meeting you. Yeah, likewise. So your book that has just been released is called In Each Other's Care a Guide to the Most Common Relationship Conflicts and how to Work Through Them. I must say, I love the title of in each other's care.
0:01:16.95 → 0:01:54.98
There's something very beautiful and tender about that. Thank you. Actually, that is a phrase that was there from the very beginning when I developed Pact. It was based on a psychobiological notion that human beings, human primates, are built to co regulate or mutually regulate in close proximity, particularly face to face, eye to eye. And so couple therapy had been focused on, I think, self regulation more.
0:01:55.67 → 0:02:39.58
And the way it works, starting with infants and caregivers, is this is the motion, nobody can see this, but I'm crossing my hands over. Instead of being in your own care, in the primary attachment relationship, you're actually in each other's care. And that's actually more efficient and a better way to think and operate than being in one's own care only, which is a one person psychological system. Yeah. It's ironic, though, isn't it, that a lot of the time we've launched so quickly into self protective patterns and maybe we forget about the part of our responsibility to be in each other's care.
0:02:39.63 → 0:03:14.33
And that co regulation, that reciprocity of care. Because I think we can become very self centred or self absorbed when we launch into that self protective pattern, when we are feeling threatened in our relationship. So it feels like there's this tussle at play, and that in intimate relationships, sometimes that person who's closest to us can raise the alarm more than anyone else in our systems. Well, the reason for that is because we recognise each other, especially if it's a family member. Right?
0:03:14.40 → 0:04:23.78
We recognise each other and we have a memory and a history of threat cues, of facial expressions and vocal tone and movements and postures and gestures, but also words and phrases that trigger a threat memory. So that's family. But when you fall in love and you find somebody that you want to be with. There's a general belief in pair bonding with humans that we only pair bond with people with whom we recognise and find familiar enough, which means that we're going to be proxies for everything and everybody that we've experienced going all the way back to childhood. So that's why it's so difficult because we're memory animals and we also have a survival instinct and you would think that we would know the difference between friend and foe and be able to hold on to an idea that this is our child, this is our partner, this is the person I love.
0:04:24.31 → 0:04:42.31
But we're easily threatened and when we are, our brain changes and we revert to self protection and that's unfortunately, fortunately the human condition, it knows no gender, no sex, no culture.
0:04:44.73 → 0:05:24.57
It is all of us. And that's one of the struggles that we have to recognise and learn how to override our primitive nature. Yeah. And it's been a huge part of my own personal journey. And the work that I do with other people is cultivating a level of mastery, or at the very least, conscious awareness over those triggers and going, okay, if I'm launching into physiologically, in a very felt sense, kind of way, rather than just following the feeling and acting on it, can I get curious about what it is about this situation or this moment, this dynamic that feels unsafe to me?
0:05:24.66 → 0:06:04.23
Can I dig a little deeper and approach myself with a level of curiosity rather than just launching into an attack on my partner or defensiveness or any of the other things that we can so easily fall into? Well, even your mentioning of the word curiosity sets you apart from most. Most people are not curious. Most people are not curious in relationship, they're not curious about themselves, their history, they're not curious about how their mind works and they're not curious of how their partner's mind works. That is unfortunately a very small part of the world population.
0:06:04.33 → 0:06:45.95
Most of us are just going about our day, doing what we think is right based on our upbringing, based on our family culture, based on what we know and what we've experienced in our lives and that's about it. The only people that do question I think are people that are enriched in their environment. But even those people, I believe there has to be some suffering in one's life to motivate one to be interested oneself another. It's great that you think about curiosity. I wish most more people did.
0:06:46.10 → 0:07:28.28
Yeah, I think that you're right. I think there's a level of suffering or struggle and we get to a point where we can't just claim victimhood anymore without looking. Certainly if we want to make meaningful change we have to take responsibility and go, okay, what's actually going on here? Because if I'm just living out the same pattern, the same variations on a theme in consecutive relationships or even within the same relationship, there's something there to look at. And I think that with any of these things, it's an invitation into curiosity and to go, okay, can I approach myself with that lens of what is going on here?
0:07:28.41 → 0:08:01.16
Regret. Lots of studies on regret being essential for learning. And Peter Fonnie, wonderful psychoanalyst and thinker in Britain, and somebody who studies infants as well, did a study on people who don't regret. And these are basically people who are doing gambling and whether they learn from their mistakes. And he found, and others found that people who don't regret don't change, they don't learn.
0:08:01.77 → 0:08:33.29
And so loss and regret, remorse, grieving is an essential part of growing up and becoming a better, wiser, smarter person. Yeah. And I think there's such an important distinction between regret, which can guide us to course correct, and shame, which tends to sink us into numbing or low self worth and can keep us stuck. But I agree. I think regret can be a very powerful teacher if we're willing to learn the lessons here.
0:08:33.38 → 0:09:23.70
Regret, I'm thinking less about shame because that's not a change agent either, but more aligned with guilt, more aligned with loss, a higher level of development than simply being ashamed. Yeah. So maybe we could take a step back and talk a little more about this concept of secure functioning that you set out in the book. Relatedly I remember from Wired for Love, one of your earlier books, this concept of the couple bubble. I would love for you to give us a bit of an overview of those concepts and maybe set the scene on what we can hope for and what we should be working to build in our relationships and the importance of that secure unit at the heart of a relationship.
0:09:24.15 → 0:10:08.69
So a lot of my thinking comes from research and science, but I've always been a clinician at heart, even though I love teaching clinician at heart. And the challenge has always been how to make the science understandable to a lay audience, but also how to communicate. That my work with my clients, right? And so that's been a constant. At the bottom of this has to do with what we understand about our species and what we understand about infant attachment and attachment throughout the lifespan and then also how the brain develops, particularly the social, emotional brain throughout.
0:10:08.71 → 0:10:50.85
The lifespan and the differences between us all in terms of our abilities, our diversity, in terms of being able to operate under different conditions, especially stress. So the couple bubble comes from the idea that we are a species that forms dyads and herds. And so we're particularly diadic. I know they're outliers people that are not, but we tend to form diads. And those diads replicate the earliest DIAD or the earliest experiences of dependency with our caregivers.
0:10:50.95 → 0:11:31.56
And so it operates by certain rules, whether we like it or not. It's just there's a biology behind primacy that if you and I are in a romantic relationship and we've already feel like we've committed. There's a tendency to expect and to have a certain amount of entitlement to being primary, not secondary or tertiary or being demoted. We're central and other people tend to orbit around us unless we agree otherwise. Right?
0:11:31.69 → 0:12:04.02
So a couple bubble basically is a unit of two operating as a two person psychological system of interdependence. In other words, you and I as adults have the same thing to gain, same things to gain, same things to lose. And we're supposed to be in a free society, a union of shared power and authority. Therefore we protect each other from the environment. This is true throughout the mammalian world.
0:12:04.55 → 0:12:36.83
Peer bonding isn't just for procreation or taking care of the young, but it's also a survival mechanism. We're better in numbers. And so in a dietic situation you and I have to we don't have to, but if we want the relationship to last, we have to operate by certain ideas that if we don't protect each other in public and private, we will view each other as unfriendly, we'll view each other as adversaries.
0:12:38.85 → 0:13:24.92
So we protect each other from each other and everyone else by working together and being sensitive to each other. So the couple bubble basically is our protection from the world that is as it's always been frivolous, unpredictable, indifferent, opportunistic and scary as it's always been. Yeah. So I wonder if the couple bubble is this idea of the relationship comes first and there's this primacy to the relationship unit and we both have this duty to protect that and to protect one another and to prioritise that. I wonder if there are any other examples of maybe principles that come out of the concept of a couple bubble in a more practical or tangible way.
0:13:24.94 → 0:13:53.81
If people are interested in what that might look like in a relationship, how do you establish and protect a couple bubble? So people should understand that secure functioning isn't the same as secure attachment. Secure functioning is based on social contract theory. It's a series of social contracts between you and I. So we don't have a duty of any kind unless we decide that is the case.
0:13:54.01 → 0:14:30.28
So you and I come together to create something called a relationship which actually doesn't really exist in life. It is an abstraction, it's something we co create. And otherwise you can't take a picture of a relationship, you just take a picture of people. So the relationship that you and I have has to have a certain consciousness to it can't be just based on love and attraction, right? It has to be or should be based on purpose.
0:14:30.47 → 0:15:01.07
Why do we exist? What are we going to do? And what are we never going to do? Just like any union that forms because of common interests, common needs, either we need to survive or we need to win or we want to make money or why are we doing this? And so the same with the couple that if we don't, you and I co create, like moulding a block of clay.
0:15:01.57 → 0:16:04.04
We're shaping something that is uniquely ours throughout our time together and that it's based on fairness and justice and mutual sensitivity that we have to work together as allies or we cannot work. If you imagine being in a potato sack race, I don't know if they have potato sack races in Australia, but if you have that image, you know that if you and I were to do that, we would have to work together or we will look ridiculous. If I move ahead of you, we'll both fall. If we pull in different directions, we don't go anywhere. That's the same thing that's this you and I have to find where we are the same and where we agree, so we can move together and create the things we want and to solve the problems that we face without trying to solve each other, which is war.
0:16:04.22 → 0:16:42.10
I love that last line, solving the problems without solving each other. I put out a video last week and it said one of the most loving things you can do is accept your partner. It's really something that we maybe don't realise how consistently we reject or disapprove of or try to change our partner to meet our own ends. And I was met with this barrage of comments from people saying, well, if I accept them the way they are, then I won't get my needs met. And there was this very self protective thing and so I would love you to speak more to that.
0:16:42.20 → 0:16:58.05
How can both of those things exist? How can I accept and love you and how can we negotiate? So there's space for both of us to thrive here. To accept each other as is is to be in reality. Is to be in reality.
0:16:58.63 → 0:17:10.92
I accept you as you are, perfectly imperfect, as am I. Annoying, a pain in the ass. As am I. Disappointing, contradictory. As am I.
0:17:11.69 → 0:17:29.10
A burden. As am I. So what what's next? How are we going to work together as those things? Because there has to be something greater than our comparing and contrasting mind, which is always at work for good reason.
0:17:29.95 → 0:17:59.80
If we're trying to pick fruit and write fruit, comparing and contrasting, very good. This car, that car, very good. But other times it is how we get disappointed, feel let down, feel like, I'd rather be with this person than that person. We have features in our mind that are really important for survival but not great for happiness. Like always being aware of what we don't have.
0:18:01.77 → 0:18:23.28
So the mature person understands this and accepts that good enough is perfect. There is no perfect. Good enough is perfect. And you are working together, so I accept you as you are. I don't need you to change, you don't need me to change but that's different than how you and I will do business.
0:18:24.29 → 0:18:38.78
There's a difference between who we are and how we do business. That's been true throughout civilization, throughout time. That is it. You don't need to change. How we work together is constantly being formed.
0:18:38.84 → 0:19:19.19
So we actually work collaboratively and cooperatively and peaceably. Otherwise we'll damage each other just by being human. And I imagine that the more we can genuinely accept one another we're much more likely to have a level of openness to compromise and to rolling up our sleeves and to doing that work. Because when we're in this mindset of non acceptance once again we're pitting each other as enemies and when we're perceiving threat. Because as my therapist will always say to me if you attack someone they're going to defend themselves.
0:19:19.28 → 0:19:59.37
That is very reliable. So ironically the more that we can accept one another the more likely we're going to have a level of buy in and willingness and openness to do the compromising. So I think that while we might hold back from accepting because we worry that to accept someone means making all of these sacrifices and losing out, in reality it's the accepting one another that actually provides the entry point into connection and doing the work and compromising in a way that just doesn't feel as inherently oppositional and threatening. Well, think what it's like in childhood. It's the same thing.
0:19:59.52 → 0:20:17.60
Imagine that your parents don't accept you as you are. They wish you would be more like your sibling or can't you be like this person down the block? Get that enough. And this is when we want to run away from home that who we are is not embraced. Right?
0:20:17.73 → 0:20:45.10
And it's never enough. That's an injury that carries over. And if we experience that remember the adult primary attachment relationship is almost one to one what the infant mother attachment relationship is. It follows the same rules. It crashes and burns in the same way, it succeeds in the same way.
0:20:46.35 → 0:21:04.98
So the very same thing I can't grow, I can't become unless I'm with someone who looks at me with eyes that thinks I'm good, right? I'm good.
0:21:07.11 → 0:21:38.14
Otherwise I won't have any resources to develop. I won't have any resources to be better. I can't really perform well because this relational orbit is what provides the resources to do life. Yeah. And I think just practically speaking any change or influence over a partner that comes from a place of disapproval and shaming them and criticising it's not authentic, it's not real.
0:21:39.07 → 0:22:18.89
You might be getting what you want in a very superficial way but it's really not what you need. And so I think that providing that fertile soil for growth from a place of genuine love, care and acceptance and respect for the other is so much more sustainable in the long term. So back to secure functioning. I accept you as you are. But we have agreements that protect us and focus us to what we want to be, how we want to be, and how we're going to protect us from each other.
0:22:19.04 → 0:22:55.70
Therefore, I can accept you. I accept you fully, but I can also stop you from doing something we agreed that we wouldn't do if it's a principle. Like, we you know, my wife and I have this we can go to bed angry, but we have to at least touch toes. Now, there's a science behind that, by the way. It's very folksy, the science behind that has to do with us as human primates suffering an existential cris, really a survival issue.
0:22:56.07 → 0:23:24.44
If we are angry with each other and we don't repair it, or we don't somehow say to each other, signal, I'm angry with you, Stephanie, but we're okay. You could say, I hate you, Stan, but we're okay. The we're okay part is the minimal but absolutely sufficient thing that we have to experience. Otherwise, we suffered greatly and we get sick. It's not a matter of politeness.
0:23:24.50 → 0:23:51.42
We actually truly get sick because we're in an existential cris akin to when we were infants. And so people don't understand that. And so touching toes, whether touching toes or touching at all, it tends to be an unequivocal signal of friendliness. And then we can sleep. And usually we don't even have to revisit anything because that's enough to just drop the hostility.
0:23:51.61 → 0:24:31.11
Yeah. And I think for so many of us who haven't, for whatever reason, whether it's childhood or previous relationships, a lot of people haven't learned that I can be angry with you and still love you. And that really makes conflict feel so high stakes and so deeply threatening, which, again, exacerbates all of the self protective mechanisms both at a neurobiological level and at an intellectual level. But when I don't think that we can have conflict and still be okay, then of course it feels very dangerous, and we're going to act accordingly. A lot of this is development.
0:24:31.21 → 0:25:25.01
A lot of this is, if I could, I would. This idea of when I am upset with you, to be able to keep things in mind that I love you, I'm mad at you, want to punch you, but I adore you. Holding those two things in mind is a developmental achievement for many and is very hard to hold. To be able to remain a two person psychological system under stress is really hard, because if my heart rate goes up a certain level or yours and our blood pressure goes up a certain level, it's very hard to maintain an ability to think, first of all. But also, we are more likely to protect our own interests.
0:25:25.21 → 0:25:49.85
The more aroused we get. Unless we're skilled and unless we have a greater sense of purpose, unless we understand and have practise right. How to keep us from going off a cliff every time, right. One of us has to do something that is extremely friendly to the other person to snap them out of it. Otherwise we both keep going off.
0:25:50.00 → 0:26:27.83
This is the human condition, is what I was talking about. Everybody will do this unless they understand how this works. Well, I think that'd be a really nice segue into sharing some practical tools for threat reduction or ways that we can bring the temperature down when we feel that those cues are starting to arise, whether it's in anticipation of a hard conversation or there's some sort of stress in the relationship. What are some things that people can do that are really effective? Because I find this is so useful because it is tangible and it's easy a lot of the time.
0:26:27.90 → 0:26:40.57
Once you know how to do it, it's simple. It's just hard to do simple. Yeah, that's probably better. Simple, but not easy. When you go live with people who are people are really difficult, especially when we go live.
0:26:40.69 → 0:27:04.48
Right. That's a real experience that moves at lightning speeds and is being processed subcortically by recognition systems. We mostly are using pattern recognition most of our time during the day. That makes everything easier. But it also leads to bias, it leads to prejudice, it leads to shooting first and asking questions later and recognising something.
0:27:04.53 → 0:27:36.99
And if I feel threatened, I'm going to act, right? I don't think so. It's both a nice thing and it's a problem. This book, I just realised recently why I start to over focus on certain things. Everything I've learned, I obsess over until I know it inside and out and I can feel confident in the reliability of the idea.
0:27:37.14 → 0:27:58.64
Right? And so with this book, I realised, looking back, that my obsession was on structure and the manner in which we interact when one or both of us is under stress. Those are two areas that will tank any relationship. They're sooner or later having no structure. We didn't co create anything.
0:27:58.82 → 0:28:09.22
We don't have a shared vision of where we're going and why. We don't have a shared purpose other than love. Right? We have each other's backs. We're survival team.
0:28:09.32 → 0:28:19.27
We're radical protectors of each other. We're time travellers. We're going to do great things in the world together, right? Whatever it is. Whatever it is.
0:28:19.39 → 0:28:38.19
But no idea of ourselves that looks down the road. And no structure, as if we don't need it. It's astonishing to me that people will continue to just say, oh, we'll do it. You would never do that. I would never do that.
0:28:38.31 → 0:28:46.44
It's nonsense. It's naive. Human beings can do terrible, terrible things without being terrible people.
0:28:50.17 → 0:29:19.29
This is us as human beings. We're wonderful and we can be really awful. And so without having guidelines, without you and I creating a civilization, a society of our ethics, what is our ethical relationship going to be? What are our personal morals and how are we going to rein each other in? How are we going to govern each other is so vital that I can't say enough about it.
0:29:19.41 → 0:29:40.45
Most of the problems in relationship is that there is nothing. They're flying a plane that's half built, a house that's hardly constructed, and it looks weird. It's clearly slap dash. So number one is getting together and starting to think, where do we want to go from here? Why are we doing it?
0:29:40.49 → 0:29:56.20
What's in it for us? And what could possibly go wrong based on what has gone wrong? And to start to actually be hands on with this career. That is relationship, right? That's one.
0:29:56.25 → 0:30:16.42
And the other is, again, the manner in which you and I will interact. When one or both of us is under stress, there's a brain change. Therefore, we have to, again, think ahead. We can't wait to go live every time and rinse and repeat. We have to think ahead.
0:30:17.03 → 0:30:30.25
What will I do next time? I just blew it with Stephanie. Now my tendency, as everyone's tendency, is to blame Stephanie. What should Stephanie do next time? Stephanie.
0:30:30.30 → 0:30:46.47
Is there's a problem with Stephanie? Right, that's what we all do. But that will not work. The only thing that works is I have to think that I'm responsible for Stephanie's reactions. I'm her handler.
0:30:46.63 → 0:31:22.04
I am the one who's supposed to be masterful at Stephanie. I'm supposed to know how to handle Stephanie at any time, in any state she gets into, without using a stick or a whip. That's because that's where my focus goes. And that's one thing that people can start to orient towards. Think about your approach, what you're doing, what your face could be doing, what your voice could be doing, the word choices that you're using.
0:31:23.05 → 0:31:48.45
If your partner is upset you did something, accept it. You did something right? You don't get angry at your horse because you approach it in the wrong way and it gets skittish. You don't beat the horse for reacting because you scared it. If you keep approaching your horse that way, who's the idiot?
0:31:48.63 → 0:32:06.00
Okay, so not that you're a horse, Stephanie, but we're animals. We're animals. You are the animal I picked. My job is to be competent, but we don't think about that. I want you to be competent with me.
0:32:06.02 → 0:32:31.85
I don't think I should have to do anything. And that is, again, part of the human condition. Human beings are by nature selfish, self centred, moody, fickle, opportunistic, xenophobic and very warlike. Very warlike. If we don't realise that and put things in place, we get what we pay for, which is nothing or a lot of grief.
0:32:31.93 → 0:32:49.05
So this is just, again, being in reality. So I have to learn you. I have to take responsibility for you, your reactions. I don't blame you for your perception. I don't argue that my face didn't do that.
0:32:49.14 → 0:33:02.83
First of all, I don't know what my face did. And secondly, who cares if you felt it and you were hurt I better take care of that or I'm going to pay for it. Right? We're connected. We're intertwined.
0:33:02.88 → 0:33:11.62
Our fates are hooked in. Right. There's no way I can separate that from you. Like the potato sack race. There's no way I can do that.
0:33:11.80 → 0:33:38.77
Anything else is a misunderstanding of the situation. Therefore, it's a different orientation, it's a different way of thinking than we normally do. It's not I me and you you. It's us and we we move together in lockstep or we don't move, period. Yeah, it's it's a really radical reframing for a lot of people and the way we do relationships, right.
0:33:38.84 → 0:34:03.01
To say, like, I am actually responsible for tending to you and being attuned to you and responsive to you, it's just counter to the way that a lot of people have learned how to be in relationship. We're entitled, selfish idiots included. We get together and we think we're family. We forget we're not family. You and I are strangers.
0:34:03.06 → 0:34:26.74
We will always be strangers. The formalities of being strangers have to be there. And we're constantly wanting to get to know each other throughout life. That goes against our nature. Our nature is to assume we're family, to automate each other, to never look at our faces again, to remember your face.
0:34:26.78 → 0:35:08.56
I haven't looked at it for a month. I have no idea what it looks like now I have in my head, right? But I don't look. Our tendencies in nature to conserve energy and to not pay attention should be well known by therefore, there is an active working against that, to pay attention, to focus, to be present with our partner. Otherwise, not only are we not enjoying them, but we're not really enjoying life, which is walking, using automation and memory, which we do anyway.
0:35:09.65 → 0:35:34.10
That's it. One thing that comes up for me in listening to the way that you describe that responsibility, to be responsible for our partner as we would an animal handler. I've heard another teacher refer to that film The Horse Whisperer. Bringing Horse Whisperer energy to our partner I think is very apt. I've got to be a Stephanie Whisperer is what I have to be.
0:35:34.15 → 0:36:02.82
Yeah, correct. And again, so often we're doing the exact opposite of that, right? If someone starts to show signs of being threatened or feeling unsafe, we escalate in response, which is the opposite of what we would do with a traumatised, afraid animal. And yet that's how we respond to each other. And some people would be aggressive with a scared child or a scared partner or a scared animal.
0:36:02.93 → 0:36:32.12
Some people will do that because helplessness is the thing that makes us most aggressive. The thing that I wonder, and I can imagine people asking themselves is how do we make sure we don't go too far in that? Because I know that a lot of people in my audience lean more towards anxious attachment. And there can be a pattern. Of maybe taking too much responsibility to the point of tiptoeing or over indexing on that, trying to manage someone else's emotional state.
0:36:32.17 → 0:36:49.23
How do we make sure that that finds a balance point that is interdependent and mutual, rather than one person being the sole caretaker of the other? So I know what you mean when you say anxious attachment. You're referring to Ainsworth or Mary. Ainsworth anxious. Ambivalent.
0:36:49.89 → 0:37:11.11
But your audience should keep in mind that both sides of the insecure spectrum are, by definition, anxious, right? Voidant is anxious. Anxious about being trapped, being having their autonomy, their stuff being taken from them. They're really very anxious, actually. The most anxious.
0:37:12.25 → 0:37:29.80
If we want to look at the physiology of avoidance, they're most anxious. They're just unaware of it. The adult relationship is pay to play it's based on should be based on terms and conditions. Deal or no deal. Therefore, I'm going to do this.
0:37:29.93 → 0:37:45.40
You're going to do it too, if you don't do what I'm doing, because we're in this together. This is a team, pal, right? I don't carry your water unless you're carrying mine, too. We're going to have a sit down. This is not codependency.
0:37:45.59 → 0:38:10.78
I am not doing this in hopes you'll do something for me. I expect it and you should expect it from me. Because we're two, or the only two pillars of this union. Our survival depends on us pulling our own weight and doing what we must to make this relationship worth every penny, every blood, sweat and tear. Otherwise, I'm out.
0:38:11.71 → 0:38:27.91
Now, that's why I say deal or no deal. Here's the problem with that. Sounds so simple, doesn't it? Here's the real problem with that, is the attachment biology. The attachment biology we confuse with love.
0:38:28.08 → 0:38:41.39
It isn't love, it's a biological mandate of I can't quit. You don't even understand it. But we feel it primitively, intensely. It's like we're going to die if I lose you. I can't lose you.
0:38:41.43 → 0:39:03.66
I couldn't say it's the kids or the car, the money, the house, whatever, but it's really also, at the bottom of this, a biology that nature has built in a glue that holds us together for various reasons, none of them having to do with relationship, by the way. Nature doesn't care about relationship. We do. Right? We have to understand that.
0:39:04.03 → 0:39:13.92
So the attachment biology is groovy. It is what makes us stick together. It's what's kept us from murdering each other completely.
0:39:18.93 → 0:39:43.47
But it also can confuse us with love and keep us in a relationship where it is unfair, where it is not in two directions, where it is codependent, which both people are responsible for, by the way. So you and I make sure we're in a foxhole together. This is serious business. There is no pass. You don't get a pass for your drug and alcohol use.
0:39:43.56 → 0:39:56.50
I don't get a pass for my trauma history. I've got to show up or there's no reason for us to do this. I know that sounds cold hearted. No, it's a survival unit, folks. Yeah.
0:39:56.52 → 0:40:25.34
And I think that it really invites people into the vulnerability of being direct about this stuff because we can hide in, as you say, so many of us don't have a map or an agreement or kind of a Bill of rights, for want of a better term, on like what are the parameters of our relationship? What do we stand for? What do we care about? What are our joint values? People would just think about it instead of just assume it all works out, which it doesn't.
0:40:25.40 → 0:40:51.51
Yeah. So often we aren't on the same page and we assume we are and that causes us a great deal of strife and we feel very hurt and we make it mean something about the other person, how they feel about us when really we just weren't brave enough or wise enough to actually have the conversation. Think dance troupe. Think rock and roll band. Think cop car partners.
0:40:51.56 → 0:41:16.15
Think or a military unit you're in the foxhole with. All of these are interdependent relationships based on a common interest and need to survive, to win, to be famous, whatever it is. But that's why we're together. We're not together because we love each other. We're together because we have a shared mission.
0:41:16.49 → 0:41:40.98
Only couples don't do it. And it is one of the reasons why couple relationships on the whole won't last very long. Or they will, but they won't be happy because people won't think of this as a true union of equals and very, very different people. Yeah. And I suppose that's really what makes it a partnership.
0:41:41.04 → 0:41:58.14
Right? I think the word partnership has that quality to it. It's like we're in this together. We're a team. And yet for so many of us, particularly in times of stress or any of the other things that life throws at us, we turn into enemies or competitors when things get hard rather than banding together and being stronger for it.
0:41:58.16 → 0:42:19.58
Yes. And that has to be solid. You and I have to raise the bar and believe in something greater than ourselves. And some people it's God, other people, it's principles, character, values. What you and I believe is truly good together and what we believe is truly right.
0:42:20.03 → 0:42:43.64
Now the question is will we do what's good and what's right when it's the hardest thing to do? And that's where I'm trying to point people, including myself. Right? Yeah. I think that that is in those times of stress, inevitable times of stress when our everything in our being, our body will be telling us to go the selfish route.
0:42:43.83 → 0:43:24.93
It's then more than ever that we need to resist that impulse and turn the other way and turn towards our partner rather than becoming very tunnel visioned and self focused. I do believe that once people start doing this, it's its own reward. It is a practise and I do believe that there is no other system that will last a lifetime. There is no other system that can and be happy because other systems, anything else will end up being too unfair and too unjust, too insensitive. And then there's a build up of resentment and threat memory.
0:43:25.11 → 0:44:02.54
And that is something people do not want because it's the gift that keeps on giving. Right. You and I have done so badly in our interactions, and we've acted in such a way that has been unkind without any repair. And now we see each other as adversaries, even when we walk into the room with each other, because we've built up so much of that memory that there is no more trust. And that's where people will go naturally because of how they did business, how they put this thing together.
0:44:03.55 → 0:44:11.36
Yeah. It's just such a body of evidence in support of all of those fear stories. Right? Yeah. It's just humans being human.
0:44:11.89 → 0:44:37.80
Yeah. It's actually quite rational by that point. It's like, well, I'm making an assessment based on everything I have known throughout our relationship. People should understand that our ability to remember where we're hurt because of survival is very keen. So if I hurt you, I won't remember because I didn't hurt me, I hurt you, you'll remember.
0:44:38.17 → 0:44:52.44
And if I didn't fix that in a timely manner, it'll go into long term memory. And I did that. This is a fact. I created that memory. I can't blame you for remembering this.
0:44:52.49 → 0:45:17.82
I created it because I didn't fix it quickly. If I fixed it quickly, you would never remember. Yeah. Stan, just before we wrap up, what would you say to people who have some sort of resistance to feeling like they need to learn this stuff? Because I think some people feel like love should carry a relationship, like we shouldn't need to learn how to be together, that this all sounds very formal and pragmatic and takes away from the romance of it.
0:45:17.84 → 0:45:39.68
What would you say to those people? I would say I fully understand and party on. I've been at this long enough. This has been my research. Started studying babies and started studying adults very carefully, very systematically, using digital video and frame analysis.
0:45:39.74 → 0:45:57.77
So we've studied faces, studied body, studied how people act and react, things that people don't ever even know because real time is too fast. So I've studied this. I can say good luck to you, hopefully it will work out. But this isn't rocket science. Study your history.
0:45:57.89 → 0:46:15.88
Look around. Watch what's happening today. People have not changed. And so if you think that you can deal with another person through time without a structure, without building something together, without pointing in the same direction, let's see.
0:46:19.21 → 0:46:44.22
There are naturals. I've seen lots of natural couples and they're really good. Until they're not, because life throws curveballs. The vicissitudes of life are such that we can't predict what's coming but we can pretty much guess that what's coming isn't a lot of it's great and a lot of it's really bad. The question is, how good are we when it's really bad?
0:46:44.99 → 0:47:08.60
If we're naturals, we're going to fall apart, because we need more than just being natural, we need training, we need to prepare for that. Yeah. Need the contingencies of all of those pre agreed values and commitments to one another. It's a practise and it's hard to do. This is hard.
0:47:09.85 → 0:47:37.64
I'm stubborn and selfish and difficult as anybody, but this changed my life and I wouldn't be the person I am today, or becoming the person if I didn't do this. And it is hard with lots of failure. Yeah. But as you say, worth it. And I think you're right that it gets easier with time, because we start to reap the rewards of it and we start to trust in it more and so that we create some momentum around that.
0:47:37.66 → 0:48:06.80
And it does get marginally easier with each time round. One last thing. This is where the attachment system is a hindrance. If I'm insecure, and I've been insecure, I'm preloaded to not trust you. I'm preloaded to know, based on experience, what will happen if I depend on you, and that'll cause me to protect myself in ways that will appear threatening to you, which is the problem.
0:48:06.90 → 0:48:32.00
So there is that to consider. Can one have the experience to know that fairness and justice in a union and co creation in working together exists? Some people don't believe it does. I mean, they do intellectually, but when they get in it, how are you going to screw me? How am I going to lose on this?
0:48:34.07 → 0:48:48.27
And so that's another challenge for people. Yeah, certainly. I think that's such a beautiful articulation of the essence of any expression of insecure attachment. I don't trust in my ability to depend on you. Bad things are going to happen.
0:48:48.36 → 0:49:15.53
That's because of memory. Yeah. But you and I can change the memory by understanding it and not doing what is natural, which is to double down and enforce it, but to actually do what is unexpected. And then that system, that inflammation, that fear, begins to settle down and the memory is replaced by other memories of yeah, this is possible. Yeah.
0:49:15.73 → 0:49:30.03
Such is the nature of this work, which is so very powerful and I am so grateful for all of your contributions and in each other's. Care is now available. Correct. It's in the world. Great.
0:49:30.15 → 0:49:50.80
Anyone listening? And I did the audio too, this time. Oh, brilliant. Yeah. So anyone who's listening, I have to say, I realise we went a little off pissed, but the structure of the book, I think, is really excellent because it sets out specific conflicts, giving really tangible examples of places where people get stuck.
0:49:50.83 → 0:50:15.59
So it's not purely theoretical, it's actually diving into the weeds of the kinds of conversations you might have had the types of fights that you might have experienced on repeat or maybe you still experience on Repeat really walks you through what's going on there and what might be a path out of it. So definitely go and grab the book. I'm sure you'll learn a lot. And, Stan, thank you so much for joining me. It's been hugely valuable.
0:50:15.69 → 0:50:19.30
It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Stephanie. Take care.
0:50:21.51 → 0:50:43.62
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
3 Tips for Building Self-Trust
In the absence of self trust, we see a lot of other dominoes fall in terms of self worth and self respect. This is something almost everyone I work with struggles with to some degree and it’s a challenging piece of the puzzle when it comes to our personal growth in relationships. In today’s episode, I’m sharing 3 tips for building self trust to help you to go out into the world and make aligned choices.
In the absence of self trust, we see a lot of other dominoes fall in terms of self worth and self respect. This is something almost everyone I work with struggles with to some degree and it’s a challenging piece of the puzzle when it comes to our personal growth in relationships. In today’s episode, I’m sharing 3 tips for building self trust to help you to go out into the world and make aligned choices.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Knowing yourself and your values
Trusting your own boundaries
Finding others to sense check
Knowing it’s not an instant fix
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.17 → 0:00:35.14
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Um, hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm going to be sharing three tips for building self trust.
0:00:35.27 → 0:01:16.87
Self trust is one of those things that virtually everyone that I work with struggles with. To some degree, it is a really, really challenging piece of the puzzle when it comes to our personal growth and our growth in relationships. And I think it's one of those things where, in the absence of self trust, we can see a lot of other dominoes fall in terms of self worth, self respect. I think they're very much an interconnected web. And it can be hard to make decisions that are in alignment for ourselves when we don't have that self trust in place, because it tends to then lead to a lot of doubt and anxiety and all of those things that make it hard to really have our own back in relationship.
0:01:17.02 → 0:02:15.04
So I'm hoping that through today's episode, I'll be able to share with you some relatively straightforward and actionable tips around how you can start building that relationship of self trust with yourself so that you can then go out into the world and build relationships and make choices from a more aligned place. Before we dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. You've got a few days left to make use of the 50% off sale, which I've been offering on my Master classes and my Higher Love course for the past month that will end on 30 June. So if you'd like to save 50% on my three Master classes, which are on Anxious Avoidant Relationships, Boundaries and Sex and Attachment, or my Higher Love Course, which is a breakup course, you can use the code June 50 at the checkout on my website for any of those products. The second quick announcement is just to share the featured review for today, which is Stephanie never fails to amaze me with her podcast.
0:02:15.10 → 0:02:38.43
It's like she's in my head and knows exactly what I need each week. I've learned so much from Onattachment, not just with the podcast, but also with the Healing Anxious Attachment course. She's given me a new level of understanding and depth to relationships with other people and my relationship with myself. Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I'm so glad to hear that's been your experience and it's amazing that you've also done Healing Anxious Attachment and had a great experience there too.
0:02:38.50 → 0:03:15.01
As a side note for anyone listening, healing Anxious Attachment is my signature programme that I run a few times a year, and I will be opening up enrollment again in July. So if you're interested in that, you can join the waitlist via my website so that you can be notified when doors open. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around building self trust. As I said, I'm going to offer you three tips here and I do that for the sake of ease of following the podcast and structural simplicity.
0:03:15.06 → 0:04:03.40
But I do just want to emphasise that something as big as building self trust is not formulaic and it's not something where we can tick off, oh, I've done this, this and this, and therefore I am now healed and I trust myself and everything's fine. It's very much a process and it's one that we'll continue to hone and finesse and work on throughout our lives, right? We don't arrive at a destination of self trust in the same way that we don't arrive at a destination of any other goal in terms of our relationship with ourselves. And I think it's important to really remind ourselves of that so that we're not too rigid and perfectionistic in the way that we approach doing this work, right? It's a moment to moment growing and evolving rather than a journey with a clear destination that we need to achieve or reach.
0:04:03.53 → 0:04:47.09
So the first tip that I want to share with you is get clear on your values and your boundaries because you can't trust yourself if you don't know what those things are. It's really hard to advocate for yourself and to take care of yourself well in life and in relationships if you do not know what matters to you, if you do not know what you are okay with, right? I think so often a lack of self trust comes from not really having that internal compass on what we're okay with. And so we go with the flow a lot. We defer to other people, we follow their lead on what they think or believe or want or need and we shapeshift, right?
0:04:47.21 → 0:05:23.69
And I think that the consequence of that is that we really don't have an internal anchor and it's really hard to trust ourselves if we don't have that internal leadership, right? As with anything, we tend to trust people who are clear and confident and have that strong sense of security about them, right? And when we don't have that within ourselves, it's very hard to have that relationship of trust. And I think there's a broader point to be made there, which is in the other tips that I'll share today as well. The same principles that apply to people outside of yourself who you would trust or not trust apply to yourself and your own relationship of self trust.
0:05:23.78 → 0:06:00.09
So if you are embodying traits or acting in ways that would not inspire much trust if it were another person, then don't be surprised if you struggle to trust yourself when you are behaving in ways that are flaky or inconsistent or lacking in clear values or whatever it may be. So this first one being get clear on your values and your boundaries, right? You cannot trust yourself if you are just floating rudderless around in the ocean because there's really nothing to hold on to there. So how you go about doing this? I think sometimes that in and of itself can be a challenging exercise for people who are not used to it.
0:06:00.13 → 0:06:49.35
Because for a lot of us we will have learned and had that as a strategy, consciously or otherwise is just to be easy, right, to go with the flow, to defer to other people. So the idea of actually going out and figuring out what our values are or setting boundaries or even just identifying what the boundary is can feel overwhelming. We don't know where to start. And so I think that if that is you and you don't really know where to start, it can be helpful to reverse engineer based on situations where we felt really uncomfortable or anxious or any of those other emotions that might signal something about this situation is not okay for me. But I haven't maybe advocated for myself or spoken up because of all of those other strategies around trying to get certain needs for connection or belonging.
0:06:49.40 → 0:07:31.51
Met. So if you know consistently okay when I overextend myself and say yes to everyone and try to be the helper and go out of my way to take care of everyone else, and then I feel really burnt out. About it that's going to lead me to not only be resentful towards them, but probably be resentful towards myself on some level and not really trust myself to say yes when I mean yes, but no when I mean no. So start reflecting on that and reverse engineering from experiences and situations. It's like you're going through and mining or auditing your own relational experiences and take those emotions or those almost those hangovers as feedback, right?
0:07:31.63 → 0:08:09.17
Go okay, that didn't work for me or that leaves me feeling really depleted or taken advantage of or any of those other kinds of emotions and get really clear on what those boundaries might be and what you really value. So you might value reciprocity, you might value reliability, you might value openness but get clear on what those are and then be willing to stand behind them. Okay? The second tip that I want to give you for building self trust, which is sort of related to this, that goes a little bit further, is follow through on your commitments to yourself. Now again, as I just said, you would not trust someone who consistently said one thing and then did another, right?
0:08:09.21 → 0:08:31.08
I think we can all agree on that and yet so many of us make commitments to ourselves and then don't follow through, right? We do something else. We say, we're going to go for a morning walk every day, but then by day three, we've stopped doing it. Or we say, we're going to not message our ex because we know that it's not good for us. And what do we do?
0:08:31.10 → 0:09:08.15
We go and do it. Right, so when your word stops meaning anything to you, then of course you're not going to trust yourself because, again, you've not got the experience there that would justify trust. You've not got a pattern of behaviour that would engender any trust in the same way that it wouldn't with anyone else. So, again, let's stop seeing our lack of self trust as really confusing and a total mystery, when actually it might make a lot of sense if that is the backdrop. I was having a conversation with one of the women in my mastermind last week and she spoke to something which I think will be relatable for so many people.
0:09:08.27 → 0:10:01.62
I won't give the specifics of the situation, but it was with someone that she had been seeing and she had said to them, actions speak louder than words, and I'm going to need you to be more consistent and reliable. But what I pointed out to her was that she had said that to them multiple times, right? So they'd continued to kind of go away and come back and go away and come back. And while she was advocating for herself by saying, actions speak louder than words, she was also making herself available to have that conversation again and again and again. And so what I put to her was, yes, sure, actions speak louder than words, but what are your actions saying, right, when you continue to hear this person out and hear their excuses and allow yourself to go around in the loop again and again and again, are your actions in alignment with your words?
0:10:01.72 → 0:10:54.95
Which are to say, this doesn't work for me because your actions might actually be signalling something other than that. So the point being there we need to follow through for ourselves and if we are behaving in ways that are inconsistent or unreliable, then we will not trust ourselves. And so one of the simplest, not necessarily easy, but certainly simple things that you can do to start building that self trust is follow through on your commitments to yourself. And I think relatably that really allows you to experience your own efficacy in a way that can be very powerful and can create a lot of momentum. We start to feel like, hey, I'm competent and capable and I am a reliable person, whereas when we repeatedly say one thing and do another, it's very destructive to our self worth and we stop respecting ourselves, basically, we feel like, oh, I'm just hopeless, right?
0:10:54.99 → 0:11:26.10
I always do this, there must be something wrong with me. And we can get stuck in a lot of that guilt and shame which tends to be an emotion that spirals downwards rather than lifting us up. So if you do want to build your self trust, follow through on your commitments to yourself. And if you don't think that you can, then don't make those commitments right again in much the same way as you would approach that relationally with anyone else, whether it's a partner or a friend or family. Don't make commitments that you're not going to follow through on and really try to follow through on the commitments that you have made to yourself.
0:11:26.23 → 0:12:56.31
Okay, the third and final tip that I want to share with you on building self trust is find a trusted person or it might be a couple of people who you can sense cheque your intuitive read of a situation with. Now, there's some discernment required here and I want to acknowledge at the outset that that might sound counterintuitive when we're talking about building self trust and then having as one of the tips to have an external person that you are testing against. But to give you a bit of context for this one, I was reflecting on my own personal journey, and a few years ago I really didn't trust myself very much at all. And the relationship I was in at the time had me really doubting whether I was crazy, frankly, and whether I was asking for too much and whether I was justified in being upset with my partner or being frustrated or being angry because he wasn't able to validate that at all or take responsibility. So what I found very helpful in that situation was sharing those things with my therapist who I started working with around that time and having her validation and kind of mirroring back and echoing that the situation that I was in was objectively pretty frustrating and that I wasn't crazy to feel that way and that certain things weren't appropriate or acceptable.
0:12:56.49 → 0:14:01.20
And I think for me at the time, because I was in such a bubble, right, I was so in the thick of the relationship and I'd had the same arguments and conversations with my partner a million times. And you do start to doubt your read of a situation in the face of someone's really adamant, defensiveness and justification. And so I think that in circumstances like that, it can be really helpful to sense cheque and get a read of the situation from someone that you trust whose point of view is likely to be someone that you consider to be wise and thoughtful. So I think that a therapist or similar is a really good person to practise this with, rather than a friend who might jump to your defence and pile on on someone in a way that might not be as helpful as it feels at the time. But I think that finding that balance between validation and outsourcing is the trick here.
0:14:01.22 → 0:14:43.89
And that's the discernment that I'd invite you to practise because we don't want to go into that space of I don't trust myself. So I'm just going to ask everyone's opinion all the time on what does this mean and what do you think about this, because I have no idea and I don't trust myself. That is where it can entrench the lack of self trust rather than alleviate it. But I do think that sharing how you're feeling and sharing what you're struggling with, with someone who can see that and validate you can be really, really helpful in then building your confidence to make that call for yourself going forward and not need to lean on other people's read of a situation so much. So perhaps that third one is really in circumstances where you might be doubting your perception of reality.
0:14:44.05 → 0:15:41.29
Maybe in a relationship, maybe there's I hesitate to use the word gaslighting because I think that it's very much thrown around on social media and leads people to be quite on high alert in their relationships in a way that's probably not helpful to throw around terms like that. But you know what I mean, where you're really struggling to find a clear view of the situation and feeling like you're maybe going crazy or you're so stricken with doubt that you actually do need the support of an outside read. So I think that that can be helpful to do that with the help of a therapist or similar. Okay, so that was three tips for building self trust. As I said at the outset, this isn't something that we can change overnight because for a lot of us, the lack of self trust is a symptom of broader struggles in relationship and as I said, is often intermingled with low self worth, a lack of self respect and some of those other things.
0:15:41.36 → 0:16:19.91
So it is part of the process. It is something that will build over time as you start to get really clear on who you are and what you want and you start having your own back. But it is possible and it is a really, really important and rewarding thing to do to build up that self trust because as I said, it's really hard to navigate relationships from an anchored and secure place when you don't have that baseline of self trust. I hope that this has been helpful. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review or a rating, depending on where you're listening, but otherwise I look forward to seeing you again soon.
0:16:19.98 → 0:16:43.50
Thanks guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
Am I being unreasonable? (Part 2)
“Am I being reasonable” is something that I often hear and it’s important to remember that asking this is so contextually important. So in today’s episode, I’m continuing my series with the goal of helping you build the muscle of discernment and capacity for self trust in asking yourself the question.
“Am I being reasonable” is something that I often hear and it’s important to remember that asking this is so contextually important. So in today’s episode, I’m continuing my series with the goal of helping you build the muscle of discernment and capacity for self trust in asking yourself the question.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Is it unreasonable to talk about the future - marriage, moving in, trips away?
Is it unreasonable to want my partner to come back within 24 hours after a fight?
Is it unreasonable when I ask my partner to think more about me in the relationship?
Is it unreasonable after 3 years, wanting my partner to anticipate my needs without me having to request them?
Is it unreasonable for me to want to spend 90% of my free time with my partner?
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.09 → 0:00:39.31
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I am talking through questions of whether you are being unreasonable when you want or expect certain things from your partner.
0:00:39.44 → 0:01:05.39
This is the second part in this series. I did another one a couple of weeks ago and these are crowdsourced. So for context, if you haven't listened to episode 82, I think it was, I am always getting people asking me how do I know if I'm being unreasonable in the things that I want and expect from my partner? And what I always say is it's very hard for me to answer that in the abstract, right? For me to just give you some generalised universal law of reasonableness.
0:01:05.47 → 0:01:21.54
It's so contextually dependent. And so I asked people on Instagram to give me examples. When do you wonder whether you're being unreasonable? And specific examples in their relationship? And I was so inundated with responses that I decided to do at least two potentially more.
0:01:21.59 → 0:01:44.28
If you enjoy these, so do let me know if you find this helpful. Examples where I'm talking through. Okay? In this circumstance, I think this aspect is reasonable. This aspect is maybe not so reasonable to sort of give that a little bit more colour and allow you to then become more discerning for yourself and apply that to whatever circumstances you might be facing in your own life in a relationship.
0:01:44.41 → 0:02:14.48
So building that muscle of discernment which is so valuable. So that's what today is going to be all about. Before we dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. The first being that I am still running a 50% off sale on my online education, so my Master classes and my Higher Love course so you can save 50% with the code June 50 on my website. The second quick announcement is that my Homecoming Mastermind, which is a six month intimate small group programme with me, is still open for application and enrollment.
0:02:14.54 → 0:02:41.79
We're starting mid July. So if you are interested in working with me directly in a small group setting over a six month period, I would love to receive your application. Third quick announcement is just to share the featured review for today, which is I've been studying and learning from attachment research and therapists for several years now, and you are by far the most concise and easy to understand presenter truly have a gift. And I'm sure I can speak for many in offering sincere thanks for the insight, knowledge and growth you provide. Thank you so much for that.
0:02:41.86 → 0:03:04.23
I really very much appreciate your kind words and if that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierig.com. My team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes. Okay, let's dive into this conversation around how do I know if I'm being unreasonable? The first example is, am I being unreasonable when I want to talk about our future together? Marriage, moving in and trips away.
0:03:04.38 → 0:03:40.85
For me, this is absolutely reasonable with the small caveat of assuming you haven't been on two dates with this person and you're wanting to talk marriage. I think if you've been together for any substantial period of time and you're in a steady, committed relationship, and you're at an age where it makes sense that you'd be having those conversations, I think it is absolutely reasonable. That you would want to talk about your future together and ensure that you are on the same page around what you respectively want for your lives. I think that structural compatibility is something that we don't maybe talk about enough. And I think it's a really important prerequisite to really investing in a relationship.
0:03:41.00 → 0:03:55.00
By structural compatibility, I mean, do we broadly want the same things? Do you want to get married at some point? Do you want kids or not? Where in the world do you want to live? What does life look like for you in the future?
0:03:55.45 → 0:04:23.90
Can we make sure that we are not on the wrong side of the street? If we have kind of diametrically opposing binary views around certain structural pieces, then that might be a deal breaker. And it's important to know that relatively early on before you're investing too much time in something that might be a dead end. So I think that it is reasonable to want to have those conversations. With that being said, I think it's also true that some people find those conversations more daunting and overwhelming than others.
0:04:23.95 → 0:05:15.99
And that doesn't necessarily mean they're not serious about you, or they don't love you, or they don't see a future with you. But those conversations can just feel really big and overwhelming to some people in a way that they maybe don't for others. So I think having a level of compassion for that while also honouring your desire to have a conversation so that might look like saying to your partner, I know that this is something that's hard for you to talk about or that feels overwhelming, but it's really important to me that we're able to discuss these things. If now isn't a good time where you feel like it's too soon, can we agree to revisit this conversation in three months or six months or whatever it might be? So find a middle ground that honours both of you that isn't pressuring one or the other isn't meaning that one of you has to totally forego how you're feeling or what your needs are.
0:05:16.08 → 0:06:06.94
So find a middle ground that honours both of you, and that doesn't make either person wrong for the way that they're feeling. I think that that is a really good way to approach this and move forward in a way that feels good for both of you. And I think that if your partner is just adamantly categorically refusing to engage at all on those conversations, then that might be telling that they're not ready in a broader sense that you might want different things. You might just have different capacities to have those conversations and that might be something to reflect on for you, whether that's going to work for you in the longer term. If your partner is just really digging their heels in and not interested in talking about the future at all, if it is important to you to have those conversations, then that might be something to think about and consider.
0:06:07.07 → 0:06:36.98
Okay, the next one that I'm going to speak to is, am I being unreasonable when I ask my boyfriend to come back within 24 hours after a fight when he doesn't usually and he usually takes days? This for me is absolutely reasonable to want someone to come back within 24 hours after a fight. Okay? Someone disappearing for days at a time after a fight without repair is really challenging. That is not the stuff of secure relationships, right?
0:06:37.08 → 0:07:09.95
It's okay to need some space to decompress after a fight before coming back to repair. But days is pushing that and it's not really in my mind, respectful to the other person and the fact that they're likely sitting there in a total anxious meltdown feeling really stressed and powerless. So for me, even 24 hours, for me, to be honest, would be pushing it. And of course, there are contextual factors here that might play into it if you live together. That might be different too, if you live apart and only see each other once or twice a week.
0:07:10.04 → 0:07:46.86
But even still, I would be putting 24 hours as the absolute upper limit on that, particularly if there's no contact in that time. I mean, it's one thing if they let you know that they're still processing and need some space and cheque in with you, but if they're just disappearing and kind of dropping off the face of the earth and aren't contactable, then I think that 24 hours is absolutely an upper limit. And as I say, if it were me, it would be a much smaller number than that. So I think that prioritising and having boundaries and agreements around repair after conflict is really a good idea. That's for anyone listening and allows you to have conflict, that feels safe.
0:07:46.92 → 0:08:20.92
Because if the status quo in your relationship is that your partner disappears for days at a time after you have a fight, then guess what? You're going to feel extreme anxiety about having a fight, about raising concerns about any of that because you're bracing for the fallout and all of the stress and pain that that's going to cause you. So I think there's a really negative ripple effect of that kind of behaviour. And it's absolutely reasonable for you to want a quicker turnaround time, let's say, between rupture and repair, than days at a time. I don't think that that is very conducive to a healthy, emotionally safe relationship.
0:08:21.05 → 0:08:54.84
So I think that the path forward for you would be to have that conversation when you're not fighting. I think that trying to impose that as a boundary or make that request when you're in the midst of it and offering that requirement to them when they're about to storm out, that's not going to be effective. So try and explain to them when you're connected and things are good that that doesn't work for you and that's really challenging. And that would they be open to agreeing a shorter period of time between rupture and repair. Okay, the next one is, am I being unreasonable when I ask my partner to think more about me and the relationship?
0:08:55.29 → 0:09:52.58
So this is one where I think it's reasonable to want to feel cared for, it's reasonable to want to feel prioritised, it's reasonable to want to feel like our partner is thinking of us, right? But to ask our partner to think more about us and the relationship is not a very well formulated request or expectation because it's so generalised and it is so open to misinterpretation or misunderstanding. So if I say to my partner, hey, I just really wish you would think more about me in the relationship, how am I going to know if that's happening? How am I going to know if they're actioning that they could be thinking about me from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to sleep at night, but if that's not translate it into action that I can observe and receive, I'm not going to know it, right? And so they could be thinking that they are doing what I've said and I could be sitting there feeling increasingly hurt and resentful because that's not showing up in the way that I would have hoped or expected.
0:09:52.64 → 0:10:20.45
So I think that this is where it is on us initially, first and foremost, to formulate needs and requests that are easy to meet, help ourselves out, help our partner out and fill in the blanks, right? Give it a bit more colour. So saying, I really feel so cared for and loved when you message me out of the blue when you're at work and say you're thinking of me. Right? That might be what you're meaning when you say, I want them to think more about me.
0:10:20.52 → 0:10:49.57
Or it might be that you plan what we're going to have for dinner without me having to ask you about it, or you make plans for us to go on a date or whatever, right. You do a certain set of chores without me having to ask you to. There are so many different ways this can look. And so I think that being really clear with our partner formulating the request with a level of specificity much more likely to actually get what we're needing. Okay.
0:10:49.66 → 0:11:11.12
That leads really nicely into the next one, which is, am I being unreasonable? When after three years, I expect that my partner will be able to attune to and anticipate my needs without me having to prompt or request them. So, again, I think this is kind of two pronged. On the one hand, I think it is reasonable to expect after three years that our partner will know us. Right.
0:11:11.25 → 0:11:45.90
That our partner will have a level of expertise in knowing how we are and the things we like and the things that are meaningful to us and how we like to be treated and the things that make us feel loved. I think that after three years you can expect some level of literacy in one another. It may be a good way of putting it. At the same time, I think going from that to I expect you to anticipate all of my needs without me having to prompt you or make a request of them is an imbalanced assignment of responsibility. Right.
0:11:45.95 → 0:11:59.39
It's just a total abrogation on your side. You should just know is essentially the sentiment behind that. I shouldn't have to ask you, I shouldn't have to tell you how I'm feeling or what I'm needing. You should just know. Right.
0:11:59.51 → 0:12:45.10
And that sounds lovely, but I don't think it is reasonable or realistic and it's probably just going to lead you to be resentful and to feel like your partner doesn't care because, oh, they must know what my needs are, but they just don't care enough to actually take steps to meet them. I think that can be the interpretation that you are going to apply to their behaviour if you're telling yourself the story that by this point they should already know everything. And so to the extent that they're not going out of their way to meet all of those needs, then they're doing that deliberately from a place of selfishness or not being loving. Right. There's a lot of capacity for you to be telling yourself painful stories that leave you feeling hurt and unloved, when really I think we do have to remind our partner or prompt our partner request things from them.
0:12:45.15 → 0:13:27.61
And the other piece is our needs change. Right? In one season of life we might need one thing or want one thing, and in another it might be totally different. So I think rather than being stubborn or righteous about this, we should just be direct and open in our communication. I think that that is by far the easiest and most reliable way to get what we need from our partner and to feel loved and to feel connected rather than just descending into a spiral of storytelling and meaning making and overthinking that leaves us feeling angry or resentful or hurt, possibly unnecessarily, or in a circumstance which is unfounded.
0:13:27.69 → 0:13:55.24
So I think that while we can expect that our partner will know us and we will know them after three years, we still have to be responsible for communicating what we're wanting or needing from them. Okay? The final one that I'm going to speak to for today is, am I being unreasonable when I want to spend 90% of my free time with my partner? So again, the distinction I will make here is you're allowed to want to spend 90% of your time with your partner. Okay?
0:13:56.25 → 0:14:11.33
A desire is what it is, right? That's your preference. You like to spend all of that time with your partner. Whether that's entirely healthy is a different conversation. I think I assume from that question that you lean more towards anxious attachment.
0:14:11.38 → 0:15:03.85
And if you listen to the show a lot, you'll know that I do encourage people with those preferences to try and diversify their energy a little more and create some balance so that they're not too overly focused on the relationship to the exclusion of all else. But putting that to one side, there is a difference between wanting to spend 90% of your free time with your partner and expecting or requiring that your partner equally wants to do that. Okay? The latter is where it becomes unreasonable because we can't be controlling of what our partner prefers or desires. And so to the extent that your partner wants to spend their free time partly with you, but also partly with their friends and also partly with their colleagues or partly on their own, you then judging them for that or shaming them for that, or accusing them of not caring about you for that.
0:15:03.97 → 0:15:51.78
That's where we run into trouble and that's where we can become controlling and unreasonable in the ways in which we're imposing our own way of viewing the world onto our partner and making them wrong for being different to us. So I think that that's really the distinction that I'd draw there and reminding ourselves, like, yeah, I'm allowed to want what I want, but I can't make them want the same thing. And that's the part that we need to lean into and that's really the uncomfortable thing for a lot of us who can tend towards more controlling behaviours in relationship. And as always, I don't say that from a judgmental point of view because I can certainly veer towards that at times, but that's part of our growth is going, oh, okay, I'm being a bit controlling here. I'm wanting them to see the world exactly as I do because that would make me feel more comfortable, right?
0:15:51.88 → 0:16:10.35
That's just not how healthy, balanced relationships work. So we need to find space for both of those things. We need to find a way to honour our desire to spend time together while also not imposing our extremes on someone else. I hope that this has been helpful. As I said, I've got so many more examples of these that you guys sent in.
0:16:10.39 → 0:16:55.48
So if this is a format that you do find useful and you'd like me to continue with every so often, do let me know, and I will be sure to record some more examples of these so that you can start building that muscle of discernment and your own capacity for self trust in asking yourself the question so that you can cheque in and go, wait. Am I being unreasonable? Hopefully, through repetition and through almost listening to these worked examples, you'll have a greater capacity to make that assessment and judgement call for yourself in whatever circumstances you find yourself in. If you've enjoyed this episode, as always, super grateful. If you could leave a rating or a review, it does help so much in not only letting me know what you love about the show, but also in getting the word out and helping more people with the podcast.
0:16:55.62 → 0:17:13.01
Thanks so much for joining me, guys. I look forward to seeing you again soon. Take care. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg @stephanierigg.com
0:17:13.13 → 0:17:22.26
And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
5 Reminders If You're Going Through a Break-Up
Unless you’ve married your high school sweetheart and lived happily ever after, you have likely experienced a breakup in your life. In today’s episode, I’m sharing 5 reminders and ways to support yourself while you're going through a break-up.
Unless you’ve married your high school sweetheart and lived happily ever after, you have likely experienced a breakup in your life. In today’s episode, I’m sharing 5 reminders and ways to support yourself while you're going through a break-up.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
The break-up is going to be hard
Finding other support people
Processing the break-up in anxious and avoidant ways
Not making meaning or assumptions
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.09 → 0:00:32.77
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm going to be offering you five reminders.
0:00:32.85 → 0:01:37.25
If you are going through a breakup or you've recently been through a breakup, or maybe not so recently, but you still feel like you're in that post breakup era in that it's still occupying a lot of mental and emotional energy and you're still really struggling with the emotional processing and maybe finding a level of acceptance around the breakup. So obviously this is an area that all of us will likely experience challenge in at some point in our lives. I think breakups are one of those things that unless you marry your high school sweetheart and live happily ever after, you're probably going to experience a breakup and have to do a level of grieving around that. And while there's no opting out of the challenges that a breakup can present, I do believe that there are better and worse ways to move through a breakup, or at least ways that you can go through that process. That are more supported and mindsets that ultimately allow you to grow through that experience rather than spiral downwards to a dark place, which I think can happen.
0:01:37.34 → 0:02:06.52
So I'm going to be offering you five reminders, tips, ways that you can support yourself if you are going through a breakup. Before we dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. The first being another reminder that for the month of June, you can save 50% of my Master classes and my Higher Love Course. My Higher Love Course in particular is very much in keeping with the theme of today's episode around breakups. It is a really comprehensive course for anyone who is going through a breakup.
0:02:06.60 → 0:02:30.39
It helps you to process all of those emotions, the grieving, the meaning, making, finding closure, but then also really supports you to pivot, to look towards the future and go, okay, what do I want? What do I value in relationships? What are the lessons I need to learn here? How can I take responsibility for my part in whatever dynamics existed in my previous relationship? How can I get really clear?
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How can I build up my self worth so that I'm looking to the future? And when it comes time to date again, how can I make sure that I'm doing that from a really integrated and empowered place rather than a place that is driven by scarcity or insecurity or unworthiness, as I think can happen if we've had a bit of a knock to our self worth? So my Higher Love course, along with my three other Master classes, are all available for 50% off on my website for the month of June. You've got another week or so to take advantage of that with the code June 50. The second quick announcement is just to share the featured review for today, which is so comforting.
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I've fallen in love with this podcast. It's so comforting and reassuring to not feel alone in what I'm experiencing and to have the tools to handle the emotions at hand. For an anxious person, this is balm for the soul, feeling seen and having the comfort of a framework for the situation at hand. Listening to this podcast is a form of soothing when I've been triggered. Thank you so much.
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Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I'm so glad that that's been your experience and it is my absolute honour and pleasure to be able to support you through your process. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my Master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around reminders. If you're going through a breakup.
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Now, this is not an exhaustive list. I probably could have done many more than this, but I think these five will give you a solid grounding to approach your breakup in a way that's going to be as supported and adaptive as possible. So the first one is remind yourself that breakups are almost always going to be hard. Again, sometimes you might end on very amicable mutual terms and feel generally good about the breakup, but even then there's going to be some adjustment, there's going to be some grieving. And I think that unfortunately, that is the minority of cases around a breakup.
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Most of the time there is maybe a lack of mutuality around the breakup. One person ends the relationship and the other person didn't want the relationship to end. All of those circumstances that mean that the breakup is going to be hard, it's going to hurt, and it's going to feel like you're in a whirlpool of emotions, and that's okay. That's actually normal and to be expected. I think where we really get ourselves into strife is where we aren't bracing for that.
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And so when those emotions arise and they can feel big and intense and overwhelming, we start to panic because we're so uncomfortable with our own emotions. We panic and we go, this can't be right. This must mean something, right? I'm not meant to miss them this much. If I'm feeling this guttered and spinning out of control and totally rudderless, that must mean that the breakup is the wrong decision, that it can't be right.
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And so if you're the person who was broken up with, you might find yourself frantically trying to contact your ex and plead with them and convince them and beg for another chance or tell them about all the ways in which it could be different. But I think that to do that really misses the point, which is that irrespective of how a relationship was, even if the relationship was really not working, even if it was unhealthy, even if it was dysfunctional and conflict, ridden the breakup is going to be hard because we have become accustomed and familiarised ourselves with that relationship that is part of our normal. And so for that to be taken away even if as I said, it wasn't healthy, it wasn't really working for us, all of a sudden we can feel very alone and very almost naked and without an anchor. That is the nature of attachment is that we learn to orient ourselves through our attachment figures and our romantic partners become that. And so all of that to say really be mindful of the stories you're telling yourself and the meaning that you are attributing to those big emotions in the wake of a relationship ending because the grief is totally normal, the sadness is normal, the missing them is normal.
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And I think the more that we can go into the experience with sort of realistic expectations, then the less likely we are to scramble to fix those emotions when they arise, and we're more likely to just be able to stay with it and remind ourselves, this is normal, this is to be expected. And I will get to the other side of this emotion. Think of it like a tunnel with a light at the end of it. Okay? So the second reminder if you're going through a breakup is in 99% of cases clearly I've just plucked that number out of dinner but you get what I mean.
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In the vast majority of cases it is not a good idea for you and your ex to be each other's emotional support person through the breakup. So I think a lot of us again really struggle with this and I have certainly struggled with this and not done a very good job of it in the past. When we see our ex in pain or vice versa, there can be such a strong urge to go in and try and comfort them and to support them emotionally through whatever emotions they are experiencing in the wake of the relationship ending. To worry about them, to feel guilty even if they're in a really bad place or they're not coping very well and to feel responsible for that or feel like it is on you to make sure that they're okay. And as much as that is totally understandable because of course this person until the breakup was your person and you were meant to be each other's rock and anchor and support person.
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The fact of the relationship ending means that your role with respect to each other is shifting and has shifted. And it's not to say that we have to be really careless and cold and uncaring, but we really do need to have some boundaries in place in the vast majority of cases. Because to be each other's emotional crutch through the breakup is likely going to make it very hard and very confusing for your system to recalibrate and understand your new relationship to this person. Because even though rationally, you can know, okay, yeah, we've broken up, we're no longer romantic partners. Having that tether of emotional support and big emotions and holding each other through that is going to really muddy the waters and it's probably going to make it much harder for you and draw out that process of unravelling and sort of rewriting the story.
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And even if you are on good terms, and even if you do intend to be friends down the track, it's probably a good idea to take some time and space from each other and find emotional support in other people in your lives rather than continuing to be that rock for one another. Because as I said, I think that can really muddy the waters and draw out the whole process and eventually you are going to have to let go to some degree. So I think the sooner you can set those healthy boundaries with each other, the better off you'll both be. And as I said, that doesn't mean you have to never speak to them again. It doesn't mean you can never have any sort of relationship.
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But I think having some lines that allow you to figure out what your relationship looks like in a way that is substantively different, qualitatively different to that of being each other's partner is usually a good idea. Okay, the next reminder is that everyone processes breakups in a different way. Now this is an area where I see a lot of people, particularly people who lean towards more anxious attachment patterns, really cause themselves a lot of suffering because they are usually spinning out and having a really tough time with a breakup. And they see their ex who might be more avoidant in their attachment patterns. And outwardly they seem to be quite fine, right?
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They might seem to be just getting on with life. Maybe they're being even more social than they were before. Maybe they've jumped straight on a dating app or whatever, right? But what you're seeing from the outside looks like a person who isn't in a lot of turmoil. And for the anxiously attached person, the story that gets told is they don't even care. They're not even sad. They must never have loved me. I never meant anything to them. They don't even care about me. How are they so fine when I am such a mess?
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I feel like an idiot, all of these things, right? Those stories are really painful and obviously can exacerbate what is already a challenging emotional time. So the reminder here is, please do not interpret someone else's behaviour through the lens of what it would mean if you were doing those things, because you're coming from two very different places a lot of the time and you're filling in the blanks and jumping to a lot of conclusions, making a lot of assumptions that are not helpful and that are based on very incomplete information. So please know that people process breakups in a very different way and particularly from that attachment perspective. In my Higher Love course, which I mentioned at the start, I have a bonus master class that's included on attachment styles and breakups and really breaking down what you can expect from each attachment style as they move through a breakup.
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What are the usual outward behaviours, inward emotional responses? That gives a little context for that, right? And lets us understand that no two processes are going to be the same and particularly when we are coming from different attachment patterns and strategies, we're likely to have a different journey through that breakup period. So just remind yourself that your process post breakup is not in competition with your exes. It is not something that you should be comparing how quickly you are moving on and making meaning out of that as if them moving on quicker than you means that they win.
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Right? There's no winner or loser and it's really just stay in your own lane is the advice. Right? So I think that the more you can remind yourself of that and resist the urge to veer into comparison and competition and meaning making and assumptions around your ex's breakup journey versus yours, I think that will stand you in really good stead. Okay, that leads me nicely into the fourth tip, which is what your ex is thinking, feeling and doing is no longer within your jurisdiction.
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Okay? Now, this is very, very hard to come to terms with, particularly for those of us who mean more anxious and who tend to lean on information gathering as a way of feeling in control when we are feeling anxious or afraid or stressed or insecure. Right? So you will likely have had a lot of patterns around doing this of what are they thinking? What are they feeling, what are they doing, what does it mean?
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And how can I kind of weave my way through all of that to try and create safety for myself and to try and create a sense of security, to try and perhaps manipulate. And I don't mean that in a way that implies malicious intent, but really manipulate, as in to try and curate the dynamic or the relationship or control the situation in some way to meet my needs or to further my end. When you've broken up with someone, when someone's broken up with you, you no longer are entitled to know what they are thinking or feeling or doing. Right? And I think that that can be really challenging, right?
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Because you'll impulsively everything within you will be saying I've got to find out what they're thinking and feeling and how do I know what this means? And et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. What does it mean when they do this, or what do you think this the number of questions I get in that vein really speaks to the fact that we spend a lot of mental and emotional energy post breakup trying to hypothesise and decipher what our ex is thinking, feeling and doing. And the reality is, there's no way of knowing short of your ex telling you what they're thinking, feeling and doing, which they're probably not going to offer up. And there's really not a lot to be gained from you spinning around in circles trying to figure that out unilaterally.
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Because then what? So that I can then game it in a way to try and get them back or change their mind. It's just not healthy and it's not empowering, and it's not really what you need, even if it feels like that's what you need. So remind yourself. I think there's a level of radical acceptance that needs to happen here.
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It's like almost picturing that you're holding really hard onto a rope. Like, I'm picturing like, a tug of war, and it's just taking so much energy to keep pulling and pulling and pulling and gripping. And it's almost like you have to visualise just letting go of the rope because it's not yours anymore and it's costing you a lot, and it's really taking up a lot of space within you that could be redirected to your own emotional state. What are you thinking, feeling and doing rather than focusing exclusively on them when that's no longer yours to focus on? So release the grip, let go of the rope, and try and stand on your own 2ft and redirect some of that energy and attention back towards yourself.
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Now, that leads me really nicely into my fifth and final reminder, which is a breakup is a really beautiful opportunity to reset, to take stock, to get clear, to learn lessons. Okay? I know it doesn't feel like that. I know that oftentimes we would do anything to undo it, to go back in time, to change things, if only I'd done this and what if I'd done that and I shouldn't have asked for this because then maybe they wouldn't. Blah, blah, blah.
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We can just send ourselves down this rabbit hole of what ifs? But that really keeps us stuck in the past. And a breakup is like turning over a new page. And I think that if we are courageous enough to step outside of all of that rumination and obsessing and actually go, okay, here's where I am. This is what's happening.
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What are the lessons for me here in this moment, in that relationship? Because every relationship and every breakup has lessons for us, okay? And I think that learning those lessons is our responsibility. Certainly if we want to have healthier relationships going forward and if we want to leave behind patterns that haven't been serving us, that feel exhausting and overwhelming and that we feel stuck in. Because the reality is, if you just spin around in your breakup and do the ruminating thing for a while, for a few months, until you kind of get over it, and then you eventually go back on dating apps, and go back there again without having done any really intentional processing of what happened and what was driving that on your side, then there's a really good chance that you're going to end up in another relationship that exhibits many of those same traits, whatever those were for you.
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But if you haven't, quote unquote, done the work to cultivate conscious awareness around what are my patterns? As I've said before, if you're the common denominator in a pattern that keeps showing up in your life, then that's a really good invitation into getting curious. Why do I keep choosing this? Even if it doesn't feel like I'm choosing it? A part of me is choosing it.
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A part of me feels this gravitational pull towards that type of person or that type of relationship. And so when you've gone through a breakup, it's like the universe has cleared the decks for you, has given you this clean slate. And so that's your cue to learn the lessons, to cultivate that conscious awareness and to really get clear who am I, who do I want to be, what are my values, what do I care about, what do I want my life to look like? You have this window of opportunity to really stand on your own 2ft and figure that out without the influence or the distraction of a relationship, right? Because for all of the wonderful things that a relationship can give us, it also does require that we compromise.
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And that's totally okay, that's part of being in relationship. But you're given an opportunity here to figure out what life looks like for you without the influence of someone else's wants, needs, preferences, desires. And so I think that is a really good opportunity for you to rebuild that relationship with yourself so that you can go to the next relationship with a clearer sense of who you are and what you want for your life. And that's particularly true if you are more anxious and you tend to see your sense of self get subsumed into the relationship and you do notice that you lose your own identity as a standalone person. I think that's even more true that this breakup that you might be experiencing is a really great opportunity.
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So don't waste it because if you do just continue down the old path of obsession and rumination, then there's a good chance that you'll be back here in six months or a year or two years. But our patterns have a very funny knack for reenacting themselves until we learn the lesson. So I hope that has been helpful. Those were five reminders. If you're going through a breakup or you've been through a breakup and you're finding it hard to move on in a way that feels clear and confident and supported.
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So I really hope that that has given you something to think about, that it's been helpful. If you've enjoyed this episode. As always, super grateful. If you can leave a five star rating or a review, you can leave a comment on Spotify, share it with the people in your life, share it on socials of those things really do help so much in continuing to get the word out. So thank you so much for joining me.
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I'm sending you lots of love. If you've been through a breakup and you're having a tough time, as I said, I know it's hard, but you will get through it. You will be okay and you might even be better than you were before. Thanks so much for joining me, guys. I look forward to seeing you again soon.
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Take care. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things hatchment love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much.
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Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
How to Navigate Addiction to Drama with Dr Scott Lyons
If you’ve ever caught yourself wondering why you keep attracting the same type of person, this episode is for you. Today I’m joined by Dr Scott Lyons to talk about deregulation of energy, attention and emotional expression and navigating addiction to drama. Dr Scott also shares a story about how he knew he was no longer attracted to unavailable people and why he walked out in the middle of a date.
If you’ve ever caught yourself wondering why you keep attracting the same type of person, this episode is for you. Today I’m joined by Dr Scott Lyons, a holistic psychologist, educator and author, to talk about addiction to drama, and why we may subconsciously seek out chaos and intensity in our lives and relationships (even when we think we're trying to avoid it).
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Understanding addiction to drama
Common characteristics of someone addicted to drama
Big emotions don’t equal vulnerability
What your “spark” really is
Finding people who know how to love
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Use the code JUNE50 for 50% off 3 masterclasses or the Higher Love Course - www.stephanierigg.com
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
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You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge, and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment.
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In today's episode, I'm in conversation with Dr. Scott Lyons. Scott is a holistic psychologist, educator, and author of the newly released book Addicted to Drama healing dependency on Crisis and Chaos in Yourself and others. Scott's also the creator of the Embody Lab, which is the largest online learning platform for body based trauma therapies. And as someone who's taken several certifications through the Embody Lab, I am a huge ambassador of Scott and what he has created. And I'm so excited to share with you the conversation that I had with Scott today.
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All around addiction to drama and how becoming dependent on chaos often subconsciously can really dictate our lives and relationships and how we can break those cycles to create more inner and outer peace in our lives. So I'm really looking forward to sharing this conversation with you, and I hope you enjoy. Scott, hi. Thanks so much for joining me. My pleasure.
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Thank you for having me. So today we're talking all about drama and Addicted to Drama, which is the name of your new book. It is. I love a good drama. Love talking about it.
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Yeah, well, you'd hope so. By this point, I'm sure you've done plenty of talking about it. I'm glad that we're having this conversation because I think it will be relevant and will resonate with so many people. One of the most frequently asked questions that I receive from clients and from people in my instagram community is like, why do I attract unavailable people? Why do I attract X?
0:01:58.98 → 0:02:32.92
And I'm always quick to gently turn that back and ask, why are you attracted to what part of me is attracted to whatever person dynamic situation that I keep coming up against in my life? Because that's probably a more honest question and certainly a more empowering question than casting ourselves as a very passive character in the story of our lives and throwing our hands up in overwhelm and wondering why these things keep happening to us. So true. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I've certainly heard the same thing.
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It's like, why do bad things always happen to me? Why do bad relationships continue to happen to me? Why do I keep attracting unavailable people or immature people? And I think the easiest way to sort of turn it back on yourself, the question is, if it's happened once, interesting information. If it continues to happen, what is the common denominator?
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It's you, boo. It's you. God love you. We all love you. And it's you. And you are part of this situation. You are not a victim to it.
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You are a participant. And the more you can identify how you are participant, the more you are empowering yourself to change it. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's right, because as much as it might feel like a hard thing to hear, and that's what I always say to people, it's so much more permissive and empowering to look at our part, because that's ultimately what's within our control. I think positioning ourselves as the one on the receiving end of all of the bad stuff with no active role in it, is not actually a very helpful story.
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Yeah. I remember by the third person I dated who was addicted to meth, I was like, this is an unusual series of events that I'm like, what are the chances? This is weird. When I really was like, okay, clearly it's not the meth addiction I'm attracted to, but the fact that they are in some type of avoidance, that they are filling the void with something else and not really able to be there for themselves, let alone be there for me. Yeah. And so it's a heart. You're so hurt, and I was so hurt. Excuse me. I won't say you. I was so hurt.
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I was so frustrated. I was so disappointed, and I couldn't possibly hold that within myself and take responsibility for that. So it's so easy to be like another one of you or this is your fault. It's not like, how was I a participant in my own suffering again? How was I contributing to my own lack of peace?
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And how might that pattern be playing itself out in other parts of my life? Which is the question for those of us who are investigating, are we addicted to drama? Yeah. So maybe we can take a step back and you can give a bit of a lay of the land of what are you talking about? When you say addicted to drama, what might that look like?
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What are the signs? How does it show up? Yeah, so we know that we don't necessarily know, but drama is essentially an unnecessary turmoil, an unnecessary chaos and crisis. And it looks like dysregulation, if you're familiar with that word, meaning there's an inefficiency of energy and attention and emotional expression. And thus, because it's so disproportionate, like, if I'm picking up a pen with the effort of picking up an elephant that's disproportionate, it's dysregulated, and it feels very performative.
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And so that's why we often think, oh, those who are addicted to drama, like, their intensity, their exaggeration is a performance for attention. It's not. It's underneath a very dysregulated ability to modulate how much energy, emotion and attention is needed to be in response to the world. And an addiction is anything that we become dependent on that both fills a void within us and masks a core pain. It helps us be avoidant to that pain.
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It helps us both create a numbness. And an addiction, if it's interesting enough, helps us rise above the threshold of that numbness to feel alive as well as distracted. So when we talk about an addiction of drama, it doesn't necessarily make sense because we're saying, wait, why would people be dependent on essentially more suffering? Like, why would anyone want more chaos and crisis in their life? And certainly why would their brain reward them for such a thing as part of any addiction?
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And the reason is, well, stress is empowering, literally. Like the first aspect of the first stage of a stress response, you get activated. It's a release of all these hormones. You feel powerful, you feel strong in that first stage and there's an endorphic release, you get a pain relief. So all of these things when you feel helpless, when you feel like a victim in life, when you feel like there's no power agency, then you're going to move towards things that give you that.
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And if stress, which is readily available, if you seek or create it or manifest, it gives you exactly that. It gives you this boost, this charge in your life. It's like drinking ten cups of coffee at any time of the day or night you want, and it's getting free. If it gives you that, you're going to become attached to it. So this is what we mean by addiction and drama.
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And it plays itself out as the pattern of all the ways we might become just avoidant, of our own stillness, of our own peace, of our own contact or relationship with ourselves. So, I don't know, you're walking down a street, nothing going on, and all of a sudden you're thinking of a story about your ex. Why are you doing that? Why are you doing that? And you might even know, like, this isn't going to make me feel better.
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But then you get on social media and you look them up and you're adding logs to that fire of drama, of unnecessary turmoil. You're sitting in a bathtub or relaxing somewhere on like, a lawn, and all of a sudden you are playing a scenario out about what's going to happen next week at work and it's the weekend. Why are you contributing to your own suffering? Why are you rushing down the street when you have nowhere necessarily you have to be? Why are you playing a song that's really sad when you're already feeling tender?
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Yeah. So there's this question we're asking, and I think in our everyday spectrum of experience, why are we contributing to our own pain? Why are we contributing to the intensification of our own emotions? And what purpose does it serve for you? Yeah, thank you for that.
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And I was going to ask exactly that because I think with all of these patterns, we have to go, okay, what am I getting out of this? Clearly there's a part of me that's meeting a need, serving some sort of adaptive purpose, or at least it has an intention to do that. Absolutely. All survival responses do. Yeah.
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They're all strategies to navigate something. And it's unfortunate that if you've ever been around someone addicted to drama, it's exhausting, it's tiring, it's energy depleting and it's annoying, it's boundary list, it's annoying. And so there's not a lot of space for empathy. And so in the lack of empathy, we typically just brush them off as needing attention or they're just some drama queen as opposed to going, oh, this is their survival adaptive strategies to something else that looks hard and painful. They are contributing more pain to themselves to mask other pain.
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What a terrible addiction to be in an awful cycle. Yeah. And is there I mean, I'd I'd love to know a little bit more about what you've found to be the origin of that. Whether there's a common origin story or whether what gives rise to this addiction to drama? When do we become dependent on that as a strategy?
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Yeah, well, there is certainly common symptoms like those who have an addiction drama often feel isolated, alone. They feel like the world is against them as opposed to for them. They'll typically say things like why is it always me? Or why is it there always something? There's a real negative bias.
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They're unable to really attend to the positives in life. They over generalise. So I had a frustrating moment in my day, I had the worst day. So you'll see exaggerated language, intensified language, lots of exclamation marks where they perhaps do not belong. You'll see them feel like there's a constant sense of urgency, like there's not enough space and time.
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They feel rushed, they feel burdened. There's a sense of disease or anxiety that is pervasive. It creates their baseline tone. So these are things that are pretty common amongst everyone who has this propensity or addiction to drama. And in terms of the origin, there are several sort of major contributors.
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We could look at transgenerational trauma and trauma as a factor of where that initial pain comes from. That's being when we have pain, it gets locked off in our body, gets sealed off. We call that oedema, essentially like it's a way of protecting ourselves from further injury. And that edemic response cuts that part of ourself from ourself. And whether it's emotional pain or physical pain, the same thing is happening.
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So we either disassociate or we cut off parts of ourself that have been hurt and that trauma stays in the body. And so as we get more cut off from ourself, we exist in a void. We are scattered or we are disconnected from the place where that pain is residing. And that becomes what's called a void. And I talked earlier about how addictions form is a way of filling the void, literally pouring into the empty vessel of where I should be residing.
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And if you grew up in a household of chaos, that becomes the normal. You have to speak at a certain decibel to be heard. That becomes the void, the decibel to which you speak. If to be heard and seen and felt, you have to be big and exaggerated or you have to always be ill or sick or something always has to be wrong. Where that becomes the currency for love, then that's what you internalise.
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If you have a parent who's addicted to drama, you have two choices. You either join the fight and rev yourself up with them, or you collapse and become very repressed and very closed off as a means of protection. And that repression ends up leading to cathartic explosions anyways. Kind of leads us down the same path. Yeah, I mean, I think that as you describe that, it's clear that this is big, right?
0:15:10.74 → 0:15:39.36
This is kind of culturally pervasive. This doesn't feel like a niche problem. As I'm reflecting, while we kind of entered this conversation, talking about relationships like workplace, this feels big as well. So many of us, I think, form an identity around how busy we are and how stressed we are at work, but almost as a badge of honour. And that becomes like, oh, I've been so busy.
0:15:39.39 → 0:16:08.13
And that's just like how we greet each other. How have you been? Busy but good. And we can ask like, why are you over scheduling yourself? Why is the tasks at work more complex than they need to be? Why are you overcomplicating things? Why are you engaging during work and after work? Gossip. It is throwing logs on a fire of drama.
0:16:09.19 → 0:16:47.15
You're participating in it. You're either enabling it, you're participating in it or you are it's in our. And relationships become the perfect depository, the perfect place where these challenges around drama show up. Because those with an addiction to drama from attachment work, we know that this style, this stance, so to speak, or this behavioural patterns are not just the behaviour. They're also demonstrating some challenge with intimacy.
0:16:47.89 → 0:17:30.79
So if you feel isolated all the time, which those with an addiction to drama do, you're already not in relationship to yourself, let alone able to then be in relationship to other people. If you're avoiding yourself through suppression, repression or some disassociation because there's underlying pain, then you are not home to be in relationship. And vulnerability, intimacy leads to vulnerability. And vulnerability means that I'm going to come closer into contact with my own self, not just someone else, but my own self. And the emotions and the pains and the joys that all reside here.
0:17:30.91 → 0:18:26.33
And if there's like an allergic reaction to that, and that allergic reaction is a reflex that I call the revving reflex, which is as soon as I get too close to myself or too close to stillness, I'm going to rev myself up. I'm going to find and seek and create all those stress possibilities. I'm going to over schedule myself, I'm going to go gossip, I'm going to go doom scroll, whatever it takes to avoid contact with myself, which literally feels dangerous, because if I'm attending to myself, if I'm too vulnerable, I will not be available to address the next possible threat in my life and I will die. That is the underlying script. I will die because I will not be available.
0:18:26.45 → 0:18:56.59
I will not be vigilant enough to deal with the next threat. Because those of us who've had trauma, early developmental generational, whatever it is, are always on the lookout for the next threat to protect ourselves because we weren't able to the first time. Yeah. You mentioned attachment and how that can play into it. I'd be curious to know whether and to what extent you notice trends in attachment styles and addiction to drama.
0:18:56.64 → 0:19:35.96
Is there overlap there? Is there any kind of themes that emerge? Yeah, I mean, the main theme around attachment is we know attachment wounds start where there isn't the ability to co regulate. So meaning if there is not a present caregiver, and that can be community too, it doesn't have to be a single entity. But if there's not a present caregiver, who is able to be available in themselves to hold space for an infant, because we don't come into this world with the ability to regulate our own emotions and attention and energy.
0:19:36.49 → 0:19:56.79
That's modelled and it's modelled through a shared experience. So it's not like a baby's watching the caregiver and going, oh, I like how they process that emotion. Nothing like that. It's literally it's like is a parent expressive? Can they be with their emotions that's felt in the room?
0:19:56.91 → 0:20:32.87
Can I hold my infant while the infant is crying or upset and be present for them? That's co regulation. Oh, I'm learning through someone else's ability to be grounded and present and expressive, that I too can do that and that leads to self regulation. If I never get the opportunity to co regulate, I never get the opportunity to learn self regulation. And that looks like an inability to regulate my energy, my emotional expression and my attention.
0:20:33.53 → 0:21:02.18
And those are the exact ingredients that I talked about as part of an addiction to drama. The symptoms of an addiction to drama. Yeah. So I suppose then it is kind of a common origin story, but maybe it just manifests differently for different people. Most of the people that I work with lean towards more anxious attachment patterning and I think there's certainly elements of this addiction or gravitating towards drama in a lot of those behaviours.
0:21:02.29 → 0:21:37.97
But it's interesting to observe that and to also observe that. As you describe, at the heart of addiction to drama is avoiding our own stuff, avoiding that emptiness or the bigness of that void inside of us. And I think that, again, it's something that I point out to people that emotionality or loud and big emotions is not the same as vulnerability. And I think that oftentimes there can be a misunderstanding around that. People thinking, yeah, I'm good at vulnerability because of how emotional I am.
0:21:38.14 → 0:22:17.50
But I think when our emotions are coming out in whether it's a performative way or a way that is a distraction or is some sort of avoidance from the tenderness that sits underneath it, I think we again have to get a little curious about what's really going on for us there. Yeah. When the emotion is disproportionate to the experience and that's a little tricky. That is tricky to navigate what disproportionate means. But if the emotion is what I call it, a secondary emotion, which is a place where all emotions, sad, happy, whatever get deposited in to become rage.
0:22:17.69 → 0:22:59.11
Like, if I don't have a big emotional landscape and I feel a little disappointed, and it becomes rage, and I feel a little joyful, and it becomes gleeful, those are my only two emotions. And it feels very polar and extreme. It's like every subtle, nuanced emotion, and there are hundreds of them, get deposited in these major emotional containers or depositories. They're called secondary emotions. And if those emotions that I'm experiencing are primarily based on revving myself up from the past or the future, as opposed to what's actually happening in the present moment, it also seems performative.
0:22:59.53 → 0:23:36.35
So just because you have big emotions does not mean you are in contact with your emotional truth. You might be just relating and replaying stories from the past or projections of the future to get yourself to that emotional high to which you feel something with. So again, it takes you above that level of threshold and the level of numbness that's there, and you feel alive. Great. And you feel like the burst of catharsis, which ends up just actually leaving you into withdrawal symptoms from it like any addiction, right?
0:23:36.39 → 0:24:14.48
It's the plunge. Yeah. That disregulated emotional expression is not actually metabolising and processing it because often in those big experiences, you're feeding off the emotion to rev yourself up more, as opposed to using the emotion to direct and guide you towards your needs and processing and metabolising it once you've arrived at your needs, it's very different. And so for people who experience this, I'm sure by this point in our conversation, a lot of people are nodding and sheepishly raising their hand.
0:24:18.21 → 0:25:00.17
So I guess the question then becomes and again, I hear this a lot from people, it's like I'm not attracted to healthy, quote unquote, stable, healthy people. When I date someone who seems really reliable and available and kind and caring, I don't feel the same spark as I do with that person over there who doesn't text me for two weeks, but then shows up and I get the rush and the hit and the spark. So what do I do? Well, first, let's name the spark for what it is. It's called a trauma single. Okay? It is Red flag. Couture, my loves. It is not attraction. It is the mistake of what intensity is misplaced for intimacy.
0:25:00.53 → 0:25:31.13
You are chasing your red flags in that moment when you are following the magnetism of your Trauma Tingles. Okay, I love trauma tingles. I love it feels so visceral. It's so visceral and it's true. And there is a big difference of when you have healed and you can find the nuances and the flavours of love that do not feel escalated and intense and extreme and roller coastery.
0:25:31.31 → 0:25:48.65
And when the attraction feels grounded in your body, I promise you it will not feel as exciting. Sorry. Loves that's your trauma tingles. If you need excitement, go on a fucking roller coaster.
0:25:51.01 → 0:26:15.35
Maybe don't go chasing waterfalls of bad relationships to get it. But it's confusing because we often think, oh, excitement of love. Yeah, that's your stress response. It takes a couple of months to work your way into the groove of a relationship. And that's often when people are like, oh, now it's boring.
0:26:15.53 → 0:26:31.10
No, now you are in the truth of relationship. If you can make it there, the first couple of months are more stress induced. They're exciting. Stress doesn't mean bad, it can also mean exciting. But it is an activated experience.
0:26:32.19 → 0:26:59.09
It is a charged experience. And especially if we're following our Trauma Tingles, it is like there's a part of us that says, yay, we're back in the familiar. Yay, this feels like home. Home is great. And so it can be challenging because we're listening to these signals, so to speak, in our body.
0:26:59.16 → 0:27:29.02
These signals that say, like, OOH, there's just such deep attraction. And we have to learn to discern the difference between a Trauma Tingle and a present grounded, anchored, bi directional sense of flow that does include some nervousness and some vulnerability and some topsy turvy feelings as well. But also you don't lose yourself.
0:27:31.57 → 0:27:51.76
Yeah. And I think discernment is what emerges from that. It's like the thing that we so want to be able to cultivate, because I think a lot of people hear that and they go, oh, chemistry bad. Spark bad. Does that mean as soon as I feel excited about someone, I need to red flag myself the hell out of there.
0:27:51.81 → 0:28:10.61
And we can get a bit extreme and not trusting of our own judgement because we know we've got a pattern. And so we're so suspicious of our own feelings that we're like, oh, no, red flags. Go, is it a red flag if I really like someone? It's like, okay, maybe just back crisis hopping. Stop crisis hopping.
0:28:10.66 → 0:28:34.65
That's your addiction to drama. It takes some nuance, it takes some experimenting, and you won't know. And you don't have to go to the polar opposite of like going to a nunnery because you have traced your Trauma Tingles before. Yeah. It just takes a good coach or therapist to help guide you into the clarity and discernment of it.
0:28:34.82 → 0:28:56.91
Yeah. It's that hanging out in that messy place of finding our way is really hard for people who want to believe that there's a black and white three step formula way to know. No, I was in a relationship this summer. I repeated the same pattern I've done a million times. They literally said they're not available.
0:28:57.00 → 0:29:28.80
And I was like, that's okay. I'm here for you. We literally had that exchange, and I'm so grateful for it, because in this 40th time of repeating this pattern as an adult this year it's may. It's may, and I have repeated it, but it opened up a whole new access point to healing for me to have repeated it. I'm so grateful I repeated it.
0:29:28.93 → 0:29:47.67
And I've gone on dates with people since, and I was like, oh, trauma tingles aren't here. Yeah. This pattern that they're doing doesn't seem sexy anymore. Oh, they're not available. That's weird.
0:29:47.79 → 0:30:04.33
I don't feel turned on. Well, am I too old to feel turned on now? No. I have worked it out where I'm like, oh, it just doesn't it's not attractive anymore. And that feels like such freedom.
0:30:04.67 → 0:30:25.49
Yeah. Where I'm like, I've just got up and walked out of a date. I'm like, yeah, you're great, and I just need someone who's more emotionally available. And you actually haven't asked me a single question about me, so I'm giving you some information about me now by leaving. Bye.
0:30:27.27 → 0:30:59.02
You must have felt so on top of the world walking out of there. I followed up with them and I was like, hey, I just want to make sure you understood where I'm coming from and not to leave you hanging, but that was my boundary. It doesn't work for me. And I'm sure you will either read a good book called Addicted to Drama or find whoever signed copy and here's my assigned copy. Yeah, I think that's the way it can go, right?
0:30:59.07 → 0:31:07.89
When we take responsibility, rather than going. I think the old way would be, why didn't they ask me any questions about me? Why would that what does it mean? What is that? Oh, yeah.
0:31:07.96 → 0:31:44.08
I would say that I'm not interesting enough or like, yeah, all the internal scripts, those internal skips are like glue to the pattern. They help just seal it in, and as you remove the pattern and the trauma tingles no longer feel enticing, those scripts also just begin to drip away. It's like they didn't ask me any questions. They don't know how or they weren't interested. And that's also okay, they don't have to be interested in me, but at least I'm clear that that's not what I want.
0:31:44.45 → 0:32:23.25
Yeah. I think that when we notice ourselves going into that detective mode and trying to analyse someone and make their behaviour make sense or find some sort of way to reverse engineer the outcome that we want or we are is it that they are avoidant or they have this type of trauma? And maybe also I should try this strategy to get through to them and this is how I'll make them feel safe so that they open up. It's just like, can I take all of that as feedback about what's going on for me rather than meaning anything about them? Can I deal with that first and foremost?
0:32:23.38 → 0:32:44.21
Yeah. And if any of those scripts are happening, that's not relationship. That is not the foundation for a healthy, secure relationship right there. So if you find yourself in it, you got a little work to do, and that's cool. Welcome to the club of getting our shit together whenever we're getting our shit together.
0:32:44.36 → 0:32:57.40
And if you're making it all about them, guess what? You got some work to do as well. And that's okay. We are an emergent experience. As humans, we are never complete.
0:32:58.01 → 0:33:33.97
So get comfortable with where you are in your emergent healing journey and just rock it. Yeah. So what would you say then, when we notice that tendency in ourselves? Is there a way that we can rather than going into that urge of retreating and going into those extremes of, oh, I just have to isolate myself and do all of my healing in a very serious way until I'm healed enough to go and do this? What are some kind of tangible in between steps as we walk the path so that we can still exist in the world while acknowledging that we have some work to do?
0:33:34.12 → 0:33:49.40
Yeah. Well, here's another bullshit comment like that, which is that I have to love myself before I can be loved. I've said that before. Bullshit. When you were a baby, you did not fucking love yourself.
0:33:50.65 → 0:34:35.37
You didn't even know you existed really, yet you didn't have all the systems in place. So find people that know how to love friends, therapists, people who are co regulating professionals and hang out with them and just be like, what's this like? What's this like to be in an environment and ecosystem in a room where someone is present and available? Oh, that's scary. For me, whatever it is that's the experiment is, it does not have to it can be with a significant other, but it gets complex and messy sometimes when we try and do that.
0:34:35.46 → 0:35:11.99
So you don't have to go retreat, go to a nunnery, you don't have to shut yourself off to the world, you don't have to stop dating, but do find the resources that are available of people who know how to be available and present with you. That is not the same thing as people who are enabling your addiction to drama. If you're talking about you're shit talking so and so and they did this and they did that, and then that friend goes, oh my gosh, and what happened next? That is not someone who's actually being present with you. That is someone who's jumping into your bonfire of drama.
0:35:12.04 → 0:35:28.98
Someone you have pulled into your crisis through your vortex of drama. Different. Very different. So. Find people who are sturdy, grounded anchor. Put a newspaper ad out there for that.
0:35:31.21 → 0:35:56.87
Looking for a sturdy co regulator in my city. Looking for a sturdy co regulator. Here's my IG information. Like a really good embodied somatic coach has hopefully done that work for themselves so that they can be available for you and you use that as a petri dish to rewire and that's so important. And then you keep dating at the same time.
0:35:56.96 → 0:36:59.03
But does it feel like when you're with that person that you've hired from the newspaper or a therapist or a coach or whatever, when you have built the place where it feels safe to feel safe I'm going to say that again. When you have built the place where it feels safe to be safe in those conditions, then you are ready to find that and use that as a beacon to be in relationship with other people who can offer you that and where you can offer them that. Yeah, that's beautifully said and I think that you're so right using. If we see relationship, intimate relationship, particularly when we've got all of those old patterns that we know are not working for us, we see that as kind of top rung of the ladder up there with maybe like family systems. It's like, can I take some in between steps that aren't going to be so heavy on my system, that aren't going to go straight to those buttons and push them frantically?
0:36:59.13 → 0:38:02.20
Because it's so familiar, there's so much muscle memory around it, it's like I could just go straight there before I even realise it. Can I take those in between steps with safe people and build up the capacity in a way that feels a bit more contained, rather than throwing myself into the lion's den and just trying to figure it out on the fly and then being exasperated and deflated when I wind up right back where I started? Yeah, it's funny you say the Lions Den, that's my last name and my family had on the garage door to Lions Den was a long lineage of drama addicts gathering in that home. So it holds special and I love that you said the hierarchy even to get to the place where you can trial these skills that you're learning with a family system. And I'm laughing at that because it's like, to me, that's the ultimate place of the ultimate adventure course.
0:38:02.65 → 0:38:45.13
That's the arena. That is the arena with the gladiators right there. If you can get through a family holiday period without the drama, my therapist says, like, your family created the buttons, they know how to push them and they're operating on an older version of you, not the healed version of you, because they haven't healed to ascend to the same level. So they are working with their familiars, which is challenging. So you're going in with all your new tools and you're like, fuck, I've done all this work.
0:38:45.19 → 0:39:16.23
I'm amazing. I even have a successful relationship now and I'm going to go practise that in my family Christmas party. And then you get there and there's things that are thrown and doors that are slammed and food fights and suitcases that are packed five days earlier than they should have been and whatever the chaos exists in that and you're like, wait, but I did all this work. I paid all this money. Why did it work?
0:39:16.40 → 0:39:38.32
Yeah, so I just want to normalise in those cases. It is about them, it's not you. Yeah. So I guess then that leads to one other limb of all of this. Which is, if you are maybe not the drama addict yourself or you have done work around it, how can you be in proximity to or?
0:39:38.34 → 0:40:15.89
In relationship with other people who maybe haven't done that work in a way that feels boundaried and where you are taking care of yourself in that space without going to extremes of cutting people off or again, going to that thing of like I can't be in relationship with you at all, which in some circumstances might be the last resort. That might be the right thing. But I think there's a lot of in between space. So how can we safely be around people who maybe are still in that mode? Yeah, well, first you got to take care of you, which is their drama is contagious.
0:40:16.55 → 0:41:04.32
I'm not just saying that metaphorically. I'm saying that from as a neurophysiologist, their stress response stimulates your stress response and part of their mechanism for feeling safe, quote unquote, safe in relationship is pulling you into their drama vortex, pulling you into the crisis, into the hurricane, the tornado that they create. And that is ungrounding, that is dysregulating to you. So you need to spend a lot of time building up the capacity to be anchored in yourself, aware of your own emotions when they start to pull you or a mesh, you're able to use different tools to say, I'm not participating in this. That means things like, I'm not enabling them.
0:41:04.85 → 0:41:17.08
I'm not going to say things like, oh, and then what did they say? How could they? How dare you? It's like, that sounds really difficult. Sounds like you had an aspect of your day that was really hard.
0:41:17.45 → 0:41:30.04
Notice I took the over generalised language and made it specific. Yeah. In that moment, I had the worst day ever. Tell me about your worst day ever. What were some of the components of your worst day?
0:41:30.73 → 0:41:59.26
Can you also tell me about some of the things that worked for you today or that were decent? So I hear you had some decent aspects of your day and some hard parts. Sounds like a really mixed bag in that way. I mean, look, I'm a therapist, that's how but those are boundaried language tools. Somewhat like, I know my aunt's coming over and she loves to gossip and she loves to just go in the realm of drama.
0:41:59.32 → 0:42:22.49
She loves to talk about her shows and what's on the news and it's catastrophe left, right and centre. It's the catastrophe games and I'm not interested in participating. That is boring to me. And for me, just a side note for me to say it's boring. That's been a lot of work to get there.
0:42:22.64 → 0:42:31.45
I was going to say, that's a sign, right? It's like, oh, thank God. It's boring to me. Hallelujah. Hallelujah.
0:42:31.87 → 0:42:59.22
When I say drama play out, I just sort of giggle at this point. I'm like, Yay, I see you, I see you, it's all good. I will say, hey, I have 15 minutes for you, or if you want to talk about what's happening in your life, we're going to go on a walk. So I'm not stuck in a space with you. With limited space, I might say, oh, I'm happy to listen, but we got to play foosball while we talk or something.
0:43:01.13 → 0:43:54.68
Or, I'm happy to listen to the challenges of your day. I also, for my own preservation, need to hear some things that are not challenges, or I also need us to talk about some things that are positive in the world. If you're just going to talk and catastrophize the news, things like that, of setting boundaries, it sounds like one of the aspects of that that might feel challenging for people is that particularly in a family system, when belonging to the system has meant participating in the drama. We will have to come face to face with the fears around not belonging and going like, oh, okay, there might be consequences of this and I might just have to prioritise my well being above, I suppose, recognising what it costs me to belong in a system that is addicted to drama and chaos. Look, you will lose people.
0:43:55.53 → 0:44:19.21
That is the existential real thing of life. You will lose people. As you heal, people will not be able to use you to drama bond in the same way, so you become unavailable for them. Sorry, not sorry. That's for your own health and loss is real.
0:44:19.33 → 0:44:34.42
I acknowledge that they also meant something to you, if that's the case, and they may come back after they do their own healing too, or they may not, and that friends come and go.
0:44:37.03 → 0:44:59.48
It is a real aspect of life. Like, how many of your high school friends do you still talk to? Yeah. Like, how many of your elementary school friends do you still talk to? Yeah, I just want to kind of normalise, because the other piece I didn't say is you can walk away if you have tried all of these other strategies and they're really laid out in the book for you as well.
0:44:59.61 → 0:45:22.52
If you know someone addicted to drama and how to take care of yourself, if you have tried all these other strategies and it's a no win situation, you're locked in to their crisis. No matter what you do, walk away. It's okay. You are entitled and allowed to take care of yourself first. Just like on an aeroplane.
0:45:22.63 → 0:45:36.76
Put the oxygen over your mouth first. Yeah. That might mean walking away. Yeah. Look, I'm saying that having known people who have walked away from me in the long run, I'm glad they did.
0:45:38.35 → 0:46:11.34
First of all, they were enabling me. I'm glad they did. I'm glad they took care of themselves, because it was also a wake up call to me. At a certain point, after enough people are like, why aren't they texting me and asking me to go out with them every Friday night? I did recognise there was something I was doing that maybe was not giving them the peace that they deserve in their life.
0:46:11.52 → 0:46:25.44
Yeah. It goes back to that common denominator point that we started with, right? Yeah. Being an invitation to look in the mirror and get a bit curious and honest. That mirror is hard.
0:46:25.62 → 0:46:36.62
It is, absolutely. It's so much easier to blame everyone else. So much easier. Oh, my gosh, I wish I had the naivete to still do that.
0:46:40.29 → 0:47:26.55
Although I think, as we said, there is something really ultimately empowering and liberating about getting into the driver's seat and I suppose recognising that we are responsible and capable of taking care of ourselves and owning our part and deciding who we're going to be in relationship to others and how we're going to be realising that that is actually within our control in large part is very, very empowering when we have gone through life feeling like all of that is not within our control. Absolutely. Well said, scott, thank you so much. This has been such a great chat and I'm sure it's going to be hugely valuable to everyone listening. So thank you so much for being here.
0:47:26.59 → 0:47:37.44
We will link all of your work and your book and everything in the show notes. Where can people find you if they want to come into your world and work with you?
0:47:40.61 → 0:47:50.44
You can go to Drscotlions. So dr. Scott Lyons.com. It has some quizzes that are fun, like short little quizzes. Are you addicted to drama?
0:47:50.47 → 0:48:24.03
Do you know someone addicted to drama? It has information about my book, has links to all my trainings on the Embody Lab, the Somatic therapy platform, which I should interrupt and say, I've taken several programmes through the Embody Lab and I highly, highly recommend it. So if anyone is kind of working in this space and wants to learn more about this, I couldn't recommend those programmes more highly. Thank you. Yeah, that platform is my baby and pride is not something I had experienced for most of my life.
0:48:24.10 → 0:48:35.66
It was not something I allowed myself to feel because I wasn't feeling much besides extremes. But I really feel proud of what the Embody Lab has done in the world. Yeah. Really grateful. Yes.
0:48:35.68 → 0:48:43.15
You should. It's making its impact. Yeah, it's really one of a kind. Thank you. So.
0:48:43.19 → 0:48:54.36
Yeah. The Embody lab, drscotlines.com. I'm on Instagram, I have a very fun, spicy podcast called The Gently Used Human that launched today.
0:49:00.35 → 0:49:24.72
Other than that, I'm writing books and I'm just rocking my own addiction to drama. Well, thanks so much, Scott. We'll put all of that in the show notes for anyone who wants to cheque out Scott's work, which I can highly recommend, but otherwise, thanks so much for being here. My pleasure. Thank you.
0:49:26.53 → 0:49:49.08
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__Rigg or stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here, and I hope to see you again soon.
Am I Being Unreasonable? (Part 1)
A question I get all the time is “Am I being unreasonable in my relationship” in what I ask for, what I expect, what I need from my partner. So, in today’s episode I’m sharing specific examples from my community if the example is reasonable or not, to help you to be able to make that decision for yourself in your relationship.
One of the things I’m most often asked is “How do I know if I’m being unreasonable in my relationship?”. This can be a really tough enquiry to determine for yourself, particularly when you’re getting a lot of pushback and self-trust may be lacking.
In today’s episode, I’m offering my take on your specific examples as to whether certain expectations, requests or situations are reasonable (or not), to help you to be able to build your discernment muscle and ultimately feel equipped to make that decision for yourself in your relationships.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Should someone text me everyday after 1 or 2 dates
Asking my partner to stop speaking to his ex because I compare myself with her
Asking my significant other to not like scandalous or seductive pictures online
Asking my partner to check in with me when they get home safely after drinking
Wanting regular sleepovers when he sleeps better alone
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Use the code JUNE50 for 50% off 3 masterclasses or the Higher Love Course - www.stephanierigg.com
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
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Episode Transcript
0:00:00.09 → 0:00:33.45
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's episode is titled am I Being Unreasonable?
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And it is inspired by a question that I get asked all the time, which is just that how do I know if I'm being unreasonable in my relationship, in what I ask for, what I expect, what I need from my partner? This is a question that I get asked all the time and unfortunately, it's really challenging for me to answer that in the abstract. And that's what I always say to people. I'm not able to give you some sort of rule of thumb that is going to be generalised enough to apply in every situation in a helpful way, because it's just so dependent on context. So I had the idea to ask people on Instagram what are some examples of situations in your relationship where you ask yourself that question, how do I know if I'm being unreasonable?
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And I got inundated with responses and so I recorded all of those responses and have selected some to chat through in today's episode as specific examples to share my take on whether and when and to what extent that thing might be reasonable or not to expect of a partner. So I'm hoping that in taking it out of the abstract and in giving you almost, like worked examples, that that will not only give you a bit of a steer on how you could approach those specific situations, but in filling in the blanks a little in colouring in the picture that might help you to build up your own muscle of discernment so that you feel better placed to make that assessment for yourself going forward in your own relationships. It's sort of teaching someone to fish and enabling them to then eat for a lifetime, as the saying goes. So that is what today is going to be about. And I've got at least two parts to this episode plan because, as I said, I received a lot of responses from you guys.
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And if it's a format that you enjoy, as in me speaking to specific questions that you've sent in, do let me know by leaving a review or sending me a message on Instagram or leaving a little comment on spotify, which you're now able to do under the episodes so that I know that you like the format and I can take that on board when planning future episodes. Before we dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. The first being that you might have heard me say, for the month of June, I'm offering 50% off my Higher Love Breakup course, as well as my free Master classes with the code June 50 so you can go to my website and save 50% off any of those programmes. So if you've been interested in delving a little deeper into my work, now is a great time to do that. I've also been meaning to mention this is a very delayed announcement because it's definitely not new, but about a month ago I launched a standalone website for the podcast.
0:03:12.34 → 0:03:49.07
So you can now go to onattachment.com and scroll through all of the episodes. There's resources there and you can also ask a question. So there's a form that will allow you to submit a question. As you would probably know if you've been listening for a while, I have frequent Q and A episodes where I'm addressing a community question and now there is a way for you to do that that's a little more organised than sending me random DMs and stuff that can get lost. So it's a nice centralised place for you to submit a question if you'd like me to address your specific concern or situation that you're in in a future episode.
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So on attachment.com, it's got lots of resources and we are at the very early stages of that and have plans to build it out into a really helpful resource. So go cheque it out if you're a fan of the podcast. Finally, just to share the featured review, which is I just want to let you know how grateful I am for your podcast. For me, it was a revelation that all those types of attachment exists and knowing mine and my partner's attachment is helping me a lot in how to improve my relationship. Thank you so much.
0:04:15.54 → 0:04:53.69
Thanks so much for that beautiful review. If that was yours, please send a message to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my masterclasses as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around am I being unreasonable? Now, the first one that I want to speak to, and there were many, many, many versions of this that I received, were am I being unreasonable when I expect someone to text me every day after one or two dates? So by far and away the most frequent theme in the responses that I got was around texting texting frequency.
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Things like I want my partner to text me every morning, text me every night, I want text throughout the day when we're at work. So there's clearly a lot of expectation happening here around texting frequency. And without knowing, with certainty, my strong assumption is that this is mostly coming from anxiously attached people who, as we know, have a strong preference for very frequent communication, being in contact. And in the absence of that contact, there can be a lot of storytelling and meaning making and stress and anxiety that takes hold pretty quickly and can escalate. So there are a few things that I would say to this I think that expecting someone to text you every day after one or two dates, it's really important to distinguish between a reasonable expectation and a legitimate desire, we might say.
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So I think that to the extent that someone doesn't text you every day after one or two dates and you are spiralling into that means they don't care about me, they don't like me, they're going to ghost me, they've lost interest, I wasn't impressive enough. They clearly don't really want to see me or invest in me. Because if they did, then they would be texting me all the time. There's a lot of meaning making happening there and that is projecting your own preferences and your own norms around texting onto someone else and then interpreting their behaviour through that lens. The reality is that not everyone likes texting all the time.
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If you are, as I said, more anxious, then that's probably hard for you to wrap your head around because there is a strong preference to be in constant contact with someone, particularly in those early stages when you're very excited about it. But I think we do need to remember that not everyone has the same preferences. And frankly, what I would say to anyone who struggles with this whole thing around texting frequency is that it's not really healthy to be texting someone all the time and to be expecting that. And I think that if you were honest with yourself, you'd recognise that it is distracting for you. It probably occupies a lot of your field of vision to be in that constant back and forth texting.
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I know that when I've been in patterns of that in the past, it's like I can't focus on anything else. I'm picking up my phone constantly, I'm anticipating the next text and you get a text and then you get that little dopamine spike and then you get the plummet afterwards and you're waiting for the next spike. It's very addictive and it's very all consuming and for me, at least, as I said, I've experienced this. It's really hard to be present with anything else that's going on in my life because I'm so absorbed by my phone and by the anticipation of the next text from this person. So there's this sense of reaching and never enoughness when it comes to super frequent texting.
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So I suppose all of that to say my advice would be don't make meaning out of the fact that you're not getting daily texts from someone after one or two dates. That's a slippery slope and is probably going to lead you to personalise someone's behaviour when you don't really know anything about their behaviour. You don't know that that means something that might just be them being different to you. I think you're allowed to reach out to someone, you're allowed to want to talk to them, but you also can't impose your requirements in a really demanding way on someone else and particularly when those requirements or when those expectations are maybe not the most healthy thing either. So I think the advice would be try and take it slow, particularly at the start.
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One or two dates is not that much. And consider putting boundaries in place for your own texting use and frequency. This urgency culture where we all expect everyone to be available to everyone all the time in this very unrelenting way, is harmful and it leads us to all be anxious and depleted and exhausted. So consider putting some boundaries in place for your own texting usage. So maybe you send a message to someone at the start of the day and then say to them, I'll chat to you tomorrow, or maybe we can talk later tonight.
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So that you've put some boundaries and expectations in place in a more direct and overt way, and you're not just waiting for the possibility that you might get a text from them at any moment. And in so doing, being really tethered to your phone, being really anxious and waiting on someone else in a way that detracts from your ability to be present in the rest of your life. So that was a bit of a long winded answer, but I think there's some principles in there that will be relevant to a lot of people. And of course, the reasonableness will also hinge on one or two dates. That might be a different story if you've been dating someone for three months.
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Right? I think it's reasonable to expect daily cheque ins if you've been dating someone for a little longer. But I think after a date we do have to just pull back a little and calibrate our expectations and remind ourselves that this person is more or less a stranger and we don't really have the right or entitlement to demand that level of attention and time of theirs in the specific way that we would prefer it. Okay, the next one is am I being unreasonable when I ask him to stop speaking to his ex as I compare myself to her and it makes me feel not good enough? So there's a few layers to this.
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I think that what I hear in this question is the need to take a little more responsibility for the latter half of it, which is I need him to stop speaking to his ex because I compare myself to her and I feel not good enough. Right. It's like I need you to stop doing that because I have all of these other things going on and the insecurities that I have lead me to feel a certain way in response to your behaviour. So there's sort of two prongs to it right now. If someone is speaking to their ex several times a day in a way that just doesn't feel right, then I think that we are absolutely entitled to raise concerns or to say, look, I'm not accusing you of anything, but I'm not really comfortable with that.
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It doesn't really feel good for me and I'm noticing myself experiencing some insecurities about it and it's something that I'm struggling with opening up a conversation in a way that's self responsible but also honest. I think that's a reasonable course of action. But if someone is in casual contact with an ex in a way that is, for all intents and purposes, pretty above board, and they just have a good, friendly, amicable relationship and they keep in touch from time to time. I'm not sure that in that scenario, it's reasonable or advisable to say you need to stop speaking to her because I'm threatened by the fact that you guys still have a friendship and that you are in contact at all. I think that is maybe crossing the line from a reasonable request to being controlling from a place of insecurity.
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So I think that's kind of the line that we'd be looking to draw and querying is there something that feels off about this situation? And again, it's not really the kind of thing that I can give you any kind of objective marker about because it will be contextual, but that's the level of discernment that we want to cultivate. Is there something that just doesn't feel right about this situation? Does it feel disrespectful in some way? Does it feel inappropriate or do they just have an amicable friendship and that's uncomfortable for you because you really struggle with jealousy and comparison and insecurity?
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If the latter, then I think that's primarily your work. With that being said, I think you can still either way share vulnerably with your partner, what you're experiencing. But I don't know that it's one you can demand they change their behaviour so that you feel less insecure. Because ultimately if it's not the ex, it's going to be someone else, right? And just controlling our partner, saying oh, you can't speak to that woman at work or you can't chat to the barista or whatever else, right?
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We're trying to control someone else's behaviour so that we don't have to deal with our insecurities that are fundamentally ours to deal with. Okay, the next 01:00 a.m. I being unreasonable when I ask my significant other to not like scandalous or seductive pictures of other women online. So this is something that I hear a lot, women who struggle with their partners, following a lot of accounts on Instagram that are essentially very provocative, let's say, to put it lightly and feeling uncomfortable with that. And this is one where I would personally say I don't think that's unreasonable at all.
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I don't think that you can force someone not to do that. And I think that depending on their level of maturity, they might just get defensive and dig their heels in and really defend their right to do that. But I think that it's reasonable to feel uncomfortable with your partner consuming that content just so casually right, for their feed on Instagram or wherever else to be comprised of more or less naked women in a very provocative way. And for them to be not only curating their social media consumption towards that, but then to be engaging with it, to be liking commenting on that, that wouldn't feel comfortable for me either. I would feel personally that that was disrespectful to the relationship and I would certainly raise that if that were present in my relationship.
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So I don't think that that's unreasonable. But I do think that there's probably a bigger conversation to be had there than just can you not like those pictures? And maybe if you can find it within yourself to approach that conversation, albeit a very vulnerable conversation with a level of curiosity rather than accusation and blame because I think if you just say what's wrong with you? That's so inappropriate. Can't you see how disrespectful that is to me?
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Even though you may feel those things and again, I don't really blame you if you go at it with that energy, you might get defensiveness back. So maybe explaining it in a bit more of a vulnerable way, saying hey, I know that a lot of people do that, but here's how it impacts me, here's how I feel. Again, not saying that that was your intention, but this is what the impact is. Can we talk about that? Can I try and understand why that's appealing to you to do that?
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Because it does have this impact on me and it doesn't feel good, doesn't feel respectful to our relationship and can we talk about it? So I think approaching the conversation in a way that is seeking to understand while also setting a boundary and making a request for a behaviour change there, I think that's absolutely reasonable. Okay, the next one is am I being unreasonable when I want my partner to cheque in and let me know they arrived home safely if they were out drinking? This one for me is reasonable. I do this.
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And I think I've always done this. And yeah, I think that if you are wanting to know that your partner is safe and accounted for and you know that that can be an anxiety inducing experience when they're out drinking, I know that I can struggle with that. It's something that I don't know whether it's conditioning around, maybe more so for women that we're inclined to cheque in, that people have gotten home safe. I think that can be an element of it. But also, I know for a lot of people that there is anxiety around someone being out drinking and that's a whole nother conversation to be had at another time.
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But I think that just a simple text to let someone know that you're home safe can really set one's heart at ease. And I don't think it's a huge ask. So if that helps to build and establish trust so that you don't feel anxious about those situations, then I think that that's a reasonable ask. Again, I don't think it needs to be delivered in a way that's controlling or demanding, but just contextualising how that is for you. And again, you can own that there's an anxiety piece to it.
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I've certainly had that conversation with my partner saying, I realise that you don't necessarily care about this or you wouldn't think to do this without me asking, but I feel anxious when you're out drinking and it would mean a lot to me. If you could just keep me posted on where you're at and how you're tracking and when you expect to be home, all of those sorts of things. It really goes a long way in calming my system and I think that that is a reasonable ask for someone that you're in a relationship with. Okay, the last one for this episode is, am I being unreasonable when I want regular sleepovers, as he always leaves in the evening and says he sleeps better at home alone? So I think that this is one where we can find a compromise and that's really the essence of the messiness of secure relationships is we can meet in the middle and go, yeah, that's absolutely fine, that you sleep better at home alone.
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I'm not going to judge you for that. I'm not going to make it mean that you don't love me or care about me or any of those other stories I might tell myself. I'm going to try not to feel too rejected or hurt for the fact that you don't sleep over and you prefer to sleep in your own bed. Fine. And I'm going to ask you to sometimes do the thing that I prefer, right.
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Because I think that when it's just one person saying, I don't want to sleep over because I sleep better at home alone, therefore I'm never going to sleep over. Even though sleeping over means something to you and is what you desire. I think that's kind of being a bit selfish, to put it bluntly. So I think that to say I know that you prefer to sleep at home, but it would mean a lot to me if every so often you would sleep over, or even every other time. Right.
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We can alternate between you sleeping over and not. Or maybe if it really is important to you that you get a good night's sleep before work, then maybe on a weekend you can sleep over, have the conversation in a way that is a negotiation. Essentially, you can advocate for your needs and preferences while not making someone wrong for their needs and preferences. But the point is that you find some sort of middle ground that works for both of you and that is how it works. Right.
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I think that when there's sensitive things like this, and I think for a lot of people, something like sleepovers, particularly if it's after you've been intimate, that can feel really vulnerable. And you can really want the closeness of sleeping together, as in actually sleeping together after being intimate. And it can feel really painful for someone to just up and leave and say, oh, sorry, I sleep better at home. It can feel like a bit of a personal rejection. And so I think when we're feeling rejected, that we're probably the least inclined to voice a need because we already feel like we've been rejected.
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And so to extend our request out when we don't feel like the other person's going to be receptive to it feels really risky and fair enough. So maybe this is a conversation not to have in the moment, not to have right then and there, but maybe to have at some other time when you feel like you've got a little bit more capacity and you've got a little bit more confidence and you can just share that. It would mean a lot to you if he could stay over once a week or twice a week at times when it is the least disruptive to his routine, if he doesn't get the best night's sleep ever. I think when we can give someone context for the meaning that it would mean a lot to us, then they're much more likely to cooperate with that and to compromise, because in the absence of you sharing that, he may just not know that it means anything to you. Sometimes we really have to make sure that we're giving someone the chance to meet our needs rather than just staying quiet and then being disappointed when our needs aren't met.
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Okay, so that was the first part of this little series around am I being unreasonable? I hope that this has been helpful and has given you something to think about, has given you a bit of a sense for how you can approach these questions in a way that is not black and white. Unfortunately, black and white would be much easier, but it would be not in service of really building healthy, secure relationships because oftentimes there is a level of negotiation and nuance and context that's required to have these conversations and to make these assessments. But yeah, I hope that this has helped you to start building that muscle of discernment so that you can make those calls for yourself. And as I said, if you've enjoyed this episode in this format, do let me know so that I can bear that in mind when planning future episodes.
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Thanks so much for joining me, guys. I look forward to seeing you again soon. Take care. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here. And I hope to see you again soon.
The Gift of Anxious-Avoidant Relationships
So much of the content around attachment theory focuses on the challenges that anxious-avoidant pairings can present. And while those challenges are undoubtedly very real, there are also real gifts within an anxious-avoidant dynamic when the individuals involved are prepared to meet in the middle. Today I’m sharing what those gifts can look like, and tips on making the most of your anxious-avoidant relationship so that it can become a space for healing.
So much of the content around attachment theory focuses on the challenges that anxious-avoidant pairings can present. And while those challenges are undoubtedly very real, there are also real gifts within an anxious-avoidant dynamic when the individuals involved are prepared to meet in the middle. Today I’m sharing what those gifts can look like, and tips on making the most of your anxious-avoidant relationship so that it can become a space for healing.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
How different attachment styles respond to stress
Leading with compassion and care
The work that needs to be done with both attachment styles
Lessons and opportunities within anxious-avoidant relationships
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Use the code JUNE50 for 50% off 3 masterclasses or the Higher Love Course stephanierigg.com
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
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You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's episode is titled The Gift of Anxious Avoidant Relationships and I'm going to be talking all about what some of the maybe under recognised or unexpected upsides of an anxious avoidant relationship can be.
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So obviously, most of the discussions that we have around these particular attachment dynamics tend to be focusing on the ways in which it can be really challenging. And I will be the first to acknowledge and admit that it absolutely can present a lot of challenges to navigate those sometimes conflicting attachment dynamics. But I think there's also a reason that this pairing is so very common and there are certainly gifts present in that dynamic when the individuals involved are committed enough and have a capacity to do the work, to meet in the middle. And as a bit of a spoiler alert, I think that we could summarise The Gift of anxious avoidant Relationships as being that it invites us into the middle rather than hanging out at the extremes of our attachment patterns, which might be ostensibly conflicting. It really does invite us off the ledge and find some healthier way of being that is more akin to a secure centre point.
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So I'm going to be sharing that today what those gifts can look like and where the growth edge for a more anxious leaning person versus a more avoidant leaning person can lie in those dynamics. And I suppose also some tips on how you can make sure that you're making the most of your anxious avoidant relationship so that it can be a healing relationship rather than one that reinforces painful patterns and old ways of being that maybe entrench you in your insecurity rather than inviting you into those new healing experiences. So that's what today is all about. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. A reminder again that for the month of June you can save 50% off my Masterclasses, including my best selling how to Navigate Anxious Avoidant Relationships masterclass, which is very much on theme with today's episode, so you can save 50% with the code June 50 on my website.
0:02:49.36 → 0:03:24.23
You can also go to the new On Attachment website onattachment.com and all of that is there should be relatively straightforward to find. My Master classes and my Higher Love course which is my breakup course is also on sale, so you can cheque that out for the month of June while I am gallivanting around Italy, you can enjoy a discount on my courses. Second quick announcement is just to share the featured review. This was a comment from Spotify which is stephanie is so insightful, sometimes hard to hear the information she shares is necessary and absolutely powerful. She's helped me to create change in how I show up in relationships.
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Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I really appreciate it. And I agree. I think this stuff is hard to hear sometimes, but maybe it's the stuff that is hard to hear that is the most important to hear because it does hold up that mirror and invite us to get honest and get curious about our part in a dynamic. And that is ultimately what creates the possibility of growth and change.
0:03:46.88 → 0:04:26.88
So I'm glad that that's been your experience. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes. Okay, so let's dive into this big conversation around the gift of anxious avoidant relationships. Now, as I foreshadowed in the introduction, I will not lie to you and say that these dynamics are easy, that it's really not that hard, and you just have to do a three step plan and then all of a sudden you are free of the challenges that can arise in this anxious avoidant dynamic. That would be dishonest, and it's certainly not been my personal experience either.
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I have been through the ringer, I've experienced a not so good anxious avoidant relationship and my current relationship, which I certainly lean more anxious and my partner leans more avoidant. But we've managed to navigate those dynamics in a way that feels so much healthier but also really healing for us both. It has allowed us to both relearn and rewire and reprogram a lot of our old stories around what it means to be in relationship, what it means to love and be loved, to depend on someone. And so I'm speaking today not only as coach and teacher, but also as human who has walked this path and continues to walk this path. So anxious avoidant relationships can be challenging.
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We all know that most people listening are either in one or have been in one. And so we all know that that can be hard, right? For very obvious reasons. Some of the core needs around relationship things like connection, intimacy, time spent together, whole attitude and approach to needs, conflict. Anxious people and avoidant people can really differ in the strategies that they use to create safety for themselves.
0:05:51.50 → 0:06:20.91
And this is essentially what we're talking about when we're talking about attachment styles is how do I respond to stress in relationship? For an anxious person, their response to stress and stress is usually caused by distance or uncertainty. I go in, right? I try and close the gap, I try to get closer to you to restore connection, which makes me feel safe again. For a more avoidant person, the way to deal with stress is I need to retreat, I need to create distance for myself.
0:06:21.08 → 0:06:58.32
And the cause of stress is likely to be feeling smothered or feeling like there's been a loss of self or loss of independence, feeling criticised, feeling blamed, feeling controlled or attacked. And so we have these conflicting wounds and seemingly conflicting strategies because in times of stress, and most often in relationships, stress is contagious. So if one person is stressed, the other will become stressed. And in this time of stress, team Anxious wants to close the gap and team Avoidant wants to widen the gap. And so it really can be hard for both people to get what they need in those moments when you are feeling stress in your relationship.
0:06:58.45 → 0:07:35.79
So just wanted to set the scene and acknowledge like, yes, this can be really challenging. And all of the dynamics that flow from that, all of the behaviours and all of the permutations of that dynamic essentially boil down to the differing approaches to stress management. I always really appreciate that way of viewing these attachment dynamics because I think that it's very humanising and very compassionate. And despite the fact that the strategies look different, the core desire is I'm trying to create safety for myself. And so it's much harder to blame or judge someone for doing the same thing that we're doing.
0:07:35.86 → 0:08:07.54
They're just doing it in a different way, they're just trying to create safety the same way you are, and they just might have learned a different strategy. So while that starting point, and I think again, it'd be fair to acknowledge that most couples do not have the tools, do not have the capacity to get out of that rut. Because the vast majority of us go through life, go through relationships blind, more or less, we are on autopilot and that is simply because we are doing what we've always done, right? We're doing what we've learned. And those strategies have served a purpose in our lives.
0:08:07.59 → 0:08:42.94
They've kept us safe and so we will continue to do them until we have a level of conscious awareness around them and awareness of the impact that they're having and the ways in which they might actually be inhibiting us from experiencing the kind of relationship that we desire. But in times of stress, we get selfish, right? And we become really tunnel visioned and we default to our tried and tested strategies for creating safety. So how do we shift these patterns in a way that allows us to access the gift of anxious avoidant relationships? This is really the essence of the work, right?
0:08:43.12 → 0:09:58.74
And it's so, so powerful and so, so important and it's something that I really deeply believe in at a fundamental level, because I do believe that when done right, this dynamic can heal us, right? So what does this look like? I already alluded to the importance of compassion, and I think that the more we can see someone with compassionate eyes and get curious about them, as well as getting curious about our own stuff, all of a sudden there's these new possibilities that emerge because instead of seeing that person as a threat which is what we will all do by default when we feel stressed in relationship we see lions everywhere, we start to see them as a person in fear and we start to be able to relate to them with a compassionate heart and with that energy of care. And I think that from that place we can start considering oh okay, this person that I love and care about is feeling stressed, how can I support them, what might they need? And finding ways to access that and really take steps towards a middle ground, as I said before, it's like coming off our ledges at the extremes and taking steps towards the centre where we can find space for both of us to exist and thrive here.
0:09:58.84 → 0:10:51.35
So how do we then access this gift of anxious avoidant relationships? How do we shift into growth mode in our anxious avoidant relationship rather than pain mode or stuck mode? And I think the thing I want to focus on here and that I want to invite you to focus on is that for the anxious person in any relationship, your primary work is in your relationship with yourself. Because your baseline focus is always going to be on safety via the other person or security via the other person to a degree that is an over indexation, meaning I am overly reliant on you to make me feel safe. I have an underdeveloped capacity for self regulation and for self soothing and for being with myself.
0:10:51.47 → 0:11:32.39
And so that is your work. And you will have heard me say that before on the podcast, that the greatest gift you can give yourself as a more anxious leaning person, whether you are single or in a relationship, is to build up your comfort. Level with being by yourself or diversifying your energy so that you don't become so exclusively focused on your relationship as the source of all satisfaction and worth and comfort in your life. Because I think that is the default mode for a lot of anxious people. So the anxious person's primary work is in self regulation and self focus pivoting from focus on the other back to focus on the self.
0:11:32.51 → 0:12:39.96
Contrast this with the avoidant person's primary work which is in co regulation because their ability to be with self is pretty well developed and arguably the avoidant person tends to be overly reliant on their very well developed capacity to be either alone or to self regulate or to be comfortable with their own company. And so when you're in an anxious avoidant relationship, as the anxious person, you are going to be called to do the very work that is most important for you to do more broadly, which is become more comfortable with self regulation because your avoidant partner is likely to test that in you. Right. They are going to give you plenty of opportunity to work on that growth edge, which is being by yourself or being able to self soothe. Because if they have a greater preference, for example, independence or time apart or space, that's going to really test you.
0:12:40.06 → 0:13:45.54
And again you can either use those tests as an opportunity to reenact old patterns, to spiral, to escalate, to protest, to make meaning out of the fact that they need more time or space or whatever it might be. Or you can take that as the training ground and go okay, this is my opportunity to build up my own capacity to be with myself. Rather than, for example when your partner is wanting some space or they're doing stuff on their own that doesn't involve you, rather than just counting down the minutes until you're going to come back into connection, you get to see what is possible in that space in your own relationship with yourself, in your life. And whether that's spending more time cultivating friendships or hobbies or other points of interest in your own life rather than feeding the tendency to over index on your relationship which is, as I said, an easy place to go for most anxious people. Now for the avoidant person, you are going to get called into your growth work as well.
0:13:45.59 → 0:15:08.46
Because if your growth work is in increasing your comfort level with closeness and intimacy and connection co regulation, learning to meet someone else's needs or to increase your capacity to be needed, then your anxious partner is going to give you plenty of opportunities to work on that as well because they do have really high connection needs. They do want to be close to you, they do want affection and love in a very overt way and so they are going to call you into your growth edge, they are going to test you and they are going to invite you to step towards those experiences. That might be uncomfortable but it might just be the exact medicine that you need. And again, you can see that it can be either healing or if you let the old patterns take you into their grip then you might experience that as oh, these people are too much, it's too overwhelming, too demanding, too needy, not safe, right? But can you see here that for both people their primary work is being called forward in this relationship and if there is enough safety, if there is enough commitment and love and care and respect in the relationship, then you will both be invited into the medicine that you need in order to become more whole, right?
0:15:08.59 → 0:15:52.97
So again, for the anxious person, wholeness lies in finding more balance within yourself by building up the self part. And for the avoidant partner, wholeness lies in finding that balance by building up the togetherness part because the self part is already well developed. And so through this dynamic you both get to meet in the middle. You both get to become more whole and more balanced individually and relationally. So that is what I wanted to offer you as an insight into the gift of anxious avoidant relationships, both as a reminder of your individual work, if you are more anxious or more avoidant, a reminder of the essence of your work.
0:15:53.12 → 0:16:48.13
And of course, that can look like a lot of different things in Practise, but that is kind of the North Star and reminding yourself if you're in an anxious avoidant dynamic, that that is your work within the relationship as well. So the next time you're being frustrated or hurt or triggered, reminding yourself, what is the lesson for me here? What's the opportunity? Am I digging in my heels at an extreme place and am I reenacting or entrenching or reinforcing old patterns? Is there an opportunity for me to step off the ledge and take steps towards the centre, to cultivate more wholeness and more balance within myself, more trust and safety in my relationship in a way that will allow it to be healing and restorative rather than fracturing and reinforcing of those old painful patterns?
0:16:48.23 → 0:17:32.21
So I hope that that's given you something to think about and maybe given you some hope if you are in an anxious avoidant relationship. As I said at the start, I know that the dominant discourse around this tends to be quite negative in focus, emphasising the ways in which this dynamic is painful and hard, doomed even, depending on who you listen to. So I hope that it gives you a sense of what's possible and the opportunities that exist for you within this dynamic when it's done right. If you've enjoyed this episode, so grateful as always. If you can leave a five star rating or review, you can leave a little comment on Spotify, share it with the people in your life, share it on social media, it all helps so much and I appreciate all of you and I look forward to seeing you again next time.
0:17:32.30 → 0:17:56.04
Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
5 Reasons Why People Cheat
A couple of weeks ago, I shared my thoughts on if “once a cheater, always a cheater” is true, and today I’m continuing the conversation around the reasons why people cheat in a relationship and getting curious around what’s driving these behaviours. For some people this may be a challenging episode to listen to, so please make sure you’re in the right mindset to listen.
A couple of weeks ago, I shared my thoughts on if “once a cheater, always a cheater” is true, and today I’m continuing the conversation around the reasons why people cheat in a relationship and getting curious around what’s driving these behaviours. For some people this may be a challenging episode to listen to, so please make sure you’re in the right mindset to listen.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Wounds around worthiness
Disconnection and loneliness
Feeling like it’s the easy way out
Being seen through rose coloured glasses
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Use the code JUNE50 for 50% off 3 masterclasses or the Higher Love Course -stephanierigg.com
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.09 → 0:00:34.30
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. It's hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, we are talking all about infidelity.
0:00:34.49 → 0:01:40.88
Now, this is a big topic and it's a really sensitive topic and for some people it's a really hard topic if you have been in the position of being cheated on or otherwise grappling with some sort of betrayal in your relationship. So I just want to say at the outset that for some people this might be a really challenging episode to listen to and so obviously be discerning and make sure that you are in the right state of mind. If you are someone who does struggle to talk and hear about this and might be challenged by what we're going to talk about today. So I'm going to be sharing five reasons why people might cheat in a relationship. And there are so many disclaimers that I want to add here, because I think that it's so important to understand that when we seek to get curious about why someone might do something like cheating in their relationship, that that curiosity is in no way intended to justify, to explain, to excuse behaviours that are harmful and that do amount to a breach of trust, do amount to a betrayal.
0:01:40.96 → 0:02:44.94
So letting both of those be true, right? Holding in one hand the curiosity while also allowing yourself to feel if you have been cheated on, allowing yourself to feel all of the things that you feel, because that's perfectly understandable and very human for that to be an extremely painful experience. So in no way is any discussion of reasons why someone might do this intended to excuse or explain away that behaviour, to justify it or make it okay. But I think that it's important for us to get curious because the simple fact of the matter is that cheating is really, really common, much more so than we'd like to believe, but it is very, very prevalent. And so I think we have to get curious around what's going on here, what's driving these behaviours and how can we seek to understand that and maybe seek to build relationships with ourselves and with others that don't fall prey to this.
0:02:44.99 → 0:03:38.70
And again, I'm choosing my words very carefully because in no way am I suggesting that if you've been in relationship or you are in relationship with someone where there's been infidelity, not suggesting it is your responsibility to improve the relationship single handedly so that your partner doesn't cheat, right? This is complex. That's why I am treading lightly because there's a lot in this, and particularly if you're someone who is more anxiously attached, there's a good chance that you are experiencing a lot of self blame and a lot of responsibility taking. If this has happened to you feeling like you should have done more or could have done something differently, or that it was your fault in some way if your partner cheated on you and feeling that urge to fix it and to close the gap between you. So that was a bit of a long intro, but it speaks to the delicacy and complexity of this topic.
0:03:38.76 → 0:04:24.99
So please know that I'm going to do my best to deal with this in a sensitive way while also asking the hard questions and delving a little into what can be under the surface. And my hope is that in doing so, we can depersonalise a little. Because as we'll see in today's discussion, none of these five reasons are because their partner is not good enough, or because their partner is not attractive, or their partner is insert whatever harmful thing you might have been telling yourself that makes this your fault. Right? In the vast majority of cases, I would say people cheat because of their own stuff, whether that's unmet needs or disconnection or shame or unworthiness or any of the other things we'll get into today.
0:04:25.14 → 0:05:05.74
I think it's very rare that it's as simple as, oh, I'm just not attracted to my partner, or oh, I just want a cheap thrill and so I'm going to go and have a fling with someone. I think those cases are really the minority. I think oftentimes there's much more complicated stuff going on on an individual level under the surface that drive people to these patterns. It's really very much a sign of our shadow working. So hopefully, even if it is hard to hear, it will help you to see that if you've been cheated on, if you've been in this situation, that a lot of it is not about you and probably mostly all of it is not about you.
0:05:05.79 → 0:05:58.22
So it might, at the very least, alleviate some of that self blame and shame and the low self worth that can flow from these situations. Before I dive into the meat of today's conversation, a couple of quick announcements. If you're listening to this, by the date that this is released, I will be in Italy running my first retreat, which is very, very exciting. Then I will be travelling around Italy for the month of June and I've decided while I'm away I will continue to have podcasts coming out, but I'm going to offer 50% off on all of my Master classes and my Higher Love course, which is my Breakup course. So if you use the code June 50 on my website on any of those three Master classes, or my Higher Love course, you can save 50% on those.
0:05:58.27 → 0:06:30.53
So that is as big a discount as I ever give. So, as a great opportunity over this next month while I am travelling, to get in on some of those programmes at a great price. So you can head to stephaniereg.com or via the link in the show notes and use the code June 50 to save 50% on any of those online products. Second quick announcement is just to share the featured review for today, which is I'm so grateful I found this podcast. As a therapist, it's been really helpful in deepening my understanding about attachment in a gentle and non shaming way.
0:06:30.65 → 0:06:47.61
The podcast is very relatable and easy to digest. Not only do I personally get so much from the podcast, but I can also recommend it to clients. Thanks so much for sharing your wisdom. Thank you for that beautiful review. I'm honoured that you are not only finding it personally helpful, but are able to share it with the people that you're working with.
0:06:47.65 → 0:07:06.55
That's beautiful to see the ripple effect of this work and to see it helping so many people. So thank you for your support. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com. My team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes of your choice. Okay, let's dive into this conversation.
0:07:06.65 → 0:07:28.67
Five reasons why people might cheat in their relationship. Now, again, I know that I tend to go heavy on the disclaimers, but I think when they're important conversations like this, and heavy and sensitive conversations, it's important to frame them appropriately. This is not an exhaustive list of if you've been cheated on. It must have been one of these five reasons. It's not the only five reasons.
0:07:28.77 → 0:07:42.14
These are five reasons why people might cheat. Okay? So take all of that with all of the grains of salt, be discerning. As always, I will trust you to take what works, what is helpful from this and leave what doesn't. Okay?
0:07:42.27 → 0:08:30.67
The first reason why people cheat in their relationships is unworthiness. So this can show up in a lot of different ways. And I think that most of us have some level of unworthiness, some kind of wound around worthiness. If you listen to my previous episode with Vienna Farron, she talks about the worthiness wound as one of the key origin wounds and how we all have some level of worthiness wound. But for those who really struggle with extremely low self worth, there can be a sense of I don't feel that I am worthy of the relationship that I have, I don't feel deserving of the relationship that I have, I don't have any self respect, I hate myself or I don't like myself.
0:08:30.82 → 0:09:26.21
And so I may as well do this thing that maybe because it feels good, maybe because I get attention, maybe because I get validation, maybe because I just feel so thoroughly undeserving of the person I'm in relationship with. But that unworthiness wound can have a lot of tendrils or tentacles that come from it that can lead us to really behave in shadowy ways. So it can just lead us to kind of want to blow things up for ourselves, or maybe not to see the point in trying in relationships or to just do what feels fun and cheap and easy rather than what feels in integrity. And again, I think that can really come from a lack of self respect and a lack of self trust and self boundaries. All of these things that I think are symptoms of a fundamental sense of unworthiness.
0:09:26.79 → 0:10:13.71
So noticing that and really recognising, that an unworthiness wound. While that's not going to drive everyone to infidelity, it certainly can be a way that we can sabotage our relationships from a place of feeling like we don't deserve them, that we're not worthy of love. And whether that's trying to destroy what we have, or whether it's desperately seeking the cheap win of someone else's attention or validation, I think that unworthiness can definitely be a factor in driving people to infidelity in their relationships. Okay, the next one that I want to share is loneliness or disconnection. So this one's probably more relational than the others.
0:10:13.91 → 0:11:01.37
So in circumstances where we feel disconnected and I think that this probably is more true of more avoidant leaning people, that there can be this sense of I feel disconnected from you, I feel like you don't like me anyway, you're always angry at me, you're always upset with me. And so I feel kind of like you don't care anyway. I feel so far away from you, we're so unhappy I may as well cheat because our relationships kind of in the dust anyway. And so there can be these mental acrobatics that people do of you wouldn't care anyway. Our relationship is practically over.
0:11:01.49 → 0:11:33.27
It's all a sham anyway. We're going to break up. So I might as well just follow this thing. Whether it's again like a cheap one off or whether it's exploring a connection with someone new. I think that sense of the primary relationship being really frayed and disconnected that people can justify infidelity as not so much revenge, but a sense of someone being so indifferent towards them for such a long time.
0:11:33.31 → 0:12:21.99
And the immense loneliness that flows from that and the immense disconnection. And I think that loneliness within a relationship is very, very sad and very, very common, that people feel so much suffering because the person who is meant to be their source of safety and comfort, their rock, their stability, that source of companionship is actually the source of a lot of pain and disappointment and sadness and grief. And I think that the loneliness that flows from that can be so immense that we want to blame that person and we want to justify our own selfish behaviours by pointing to that and saying, well, what would you expect me to do? You haven't paid attention to me in years. Or, you never even care when I do this.
0:12:22.03 → 0:12:57.78
Or why would you care if I go and have an affair? With someone or cheat on you. So I think that that kind of story, that version of events is usually coming from a place of loneliness or disconnection. The next one that I want to share is sabotage. So for some people, and this can be conscious or not, for some people, they want out of the relationship or they feel so overwhelmed by the relationship, maybe they feel very triggered by it, maybe they struggle with avoidance and they can't bring themselves to actually end the relationship.
0:12:57.91 → 0:13:40.51
So they just try and torpedo it with behaviour that they think is going to be a non negotiable deal breaker for their partner. So they might sabotage the relationship by cheating, by doing something really reckless, by making a bad decision. And sometimes they can do this in a way that they feel like they're going to get caught and they almost want to get caught. Again, that might be conscious or not. But when we feel like we don't want to directly say to someone, I'm not happy, or I don't want to be with you, or any other thing that might make them very sad and upset and hurt, sometimes turning ourselves into the villain or into the bad guy feels like the easy way out.
0:13:40.63 → 0:14:28.94
Somewhat ironically, obviously, it's not a situation that we think of as pleasant or easy, but in a twisted way, sometimes making yourself into the villain feels like an easier option than just going to a partner and saying, I don't love you anymore, I'm not happy here, or I want out of this relationship. Sometimes leaning towards a big blow up that sort of takes the decision out of your hands and makes someone just so angry and furious that you've crossed a clear line and there's no turning back. Sometimes that allows us to bypass some of the messy stuff of just being vulnerable about how we're feeling in a situation. So that sabotage. And again, this can show up in a lot of different ways, a lot of different permutations and situations.
0:14:29.00 → 0:15:23.89
But I think that wanting out of the relationship and sabotaging it through infidelity as a way to really tip you over that clear line of a breach of trust that will hopefully remove a lot of the conversation and the negotiation that might otherwise happen. That is a strategy that some people can use and that can be one of the reasons that people might engage in infidelity the next reason why people might cheat. And I think that this is one that's really overlooked a lot of the time, is that they like who they get to be with the other person. So it's not so much about like, oh, this other person is so amazing and they're so attractive and they're so much better than my partner. It's this other person sees me with fresh eyes, this other person thinks I'm incredible, I'm not saddled with the baggage with this new person.
0:15:23.96 → 0:16:32.01
They don't feel frustrated with me, they aren't disappointed in me, they don't see me through the lens of a long term relationship with unmet needs and fights and conflict loops and all of those things that can lead a relationship to feel a bit heavy and exhausting sometimes. So there can be this sense of having a clean slate with another person, or even better than a clean slate, having that newness of when you first meet someone and connect with them. And you have such rose coloured classes. And so not only is it how good it feels to be attracted to someone in that way, but to have someone be attracted to you in that way, to be so excited about you, to think that you're incredible and really put you on a pedestal. If you've felt for a long time like your partner is only critical of you, or your partner doesn't see you in a very positive light or is consistently disappointed, then it can be very, very attractive to gravitate towards someone who does see you in that positive light.
0:16:32.08 → 0:17:49.13
So again, this is certainly not to suggest that it's the person who has been cheated on's, fault for driving someone to cheat on them. I don't think that that's a fair allocation of responsibility. But it can be a relational dynamic if the relationship has become really unloving or it's just not an atmosphere that has a lot of positive emotion and admiration and respect that's freely given and exchanged between partners, that the allure of someone who sees you with clean eyes and even rose coloured glasses can be very, very alluring for people related to that. One is not only do you get to present yourself anew with someone, but you might be able to experiment with new ways of expression that feel a bit vulnerable or edgy with your partner. I had an episode a little while ago with Vanessa and Xander Marin, she's a sex therapist and she was talking about a pattern that happens in virtually all long term relationships without effort to counter it, which is that our range of sexual expression tends to narrow a lot.
0:17:49.22 → 0:18:59.96
So while we might start being a little sexually adventurous with our partner and having a lot of sexual chemistry and intensity, not only does the chemistry and intensity tend to taper a little, which is normal, but what we do sexually or romantically, physically, we tend to get quite into a routine around that. And in a weird way, it feels much more vulnerable to try new things or to experiment, or to put yourself out there with your long term partner with whom you have these routines and these ways of being. It feels much more vulnerable to show those sides of you to express a fantasy or a desire or anything like that. Way more vulnerable to do that with a long term partner than it does to share with someone with whom you're having a one night stand. So I think that that other aspect of liking who you get to be with the other person or experimenting with who you get to be with the other person without the hangover of it being your partner and having to face them the next day and the next day and the next day.
0:19:00.09 → 0:19:46.21
That can be something that drives people to be really attracted to the idea of infidelity. And again, if we dig into that a little we can see that shame and embarrassment and self consciousness is really at the heart of that. So again, not about the partner but really about the individual and all of their shadowy stuff and all of their wounded parts that are using these strategies to keep themselves safe. So the last reason that I want to share is sometimes people will cheat to get their partner's attention. So it might be trying to almost as a last ditch effort to say like I'm here and I need you and why aren't you paying attention to me?
0:19:46.25 → 0:20:42.87
Why aren't you taking seriously all of these things that I'm saying when I say to you that I'm unhappy and that I'm lonely and that I need you and you're not here. It can almost be like raising the stakes or taking things up a notch by cheating. And that might be physical infidelity or it might be an emotional affair, but it can almost be a way of threatening a partner, saying like I have other options so don't take me for granted. So I would say this is probably more likely to be seen among anxiously attached people, this tendency to almost not so much mate switch, which is the evolutionary psychological term for this, but to try and make a partner jealous I suppose is essentially what it is. It's saying like don't get complacent around me.
0:20:42.99 → 0:21:27.57
And when they feel like they're not being taken seriously or being heard or being valued, then they might cheat or take steps towards that as a way to really raise the stakes and get their partner's attention to say, if you don't start taking me seriously, here's what I'm going to do. So you better start listening and paying attention. So that can definitely be a pattern. And as I said, that's more likely to happen around anxiously attached people. And the reason for that is simply that we can contrast a couple of these examples whereas the sabotage limb of this tends to be more for avoidant people, where the strategy is essentially to create distance.
0:21:27.73 → 0:22:17.08
I do this to increase the distance between us because that's what my avoidance strategies would have me do. This more anxious strategy which is cheating or being unfaithful or taking steps towards that to get someone's attention is actually not about creating distance, it's trying to narrow the gap. And again, that sounds crazy, right? It sounds like the opposite of what you would want to do but it's like I'm being unfaithful to try and save our relationship to try and get you to notice me, because I'm terrified that you don't notice me or that you don't care or that you are indifferent to what I do. And so it's ultimately a way to try and close that gap, but obviously not a very healthy or advisable strategy because it can do a lot of harm in the process.
0:22:17.95 → 0:23:07.42
So those were five reasons why people might cheat in a relationship. Just to recap, those were that they have an unworthiness wound and they feel undeserving of their relationship and so their shadow parts kind of grab the wheel and drive them to behave in really reckless ways from a place of not feeling worthy, not feeling deserving of good things. The second one was feeling lonely and disconnected and feeling like infidelity is either a stepping stone to breaking up or feeling like the relationship is dead in the water already. So what does it really matter? It's sort of this sense of despondency and having given up on the relationship and checked out, so it feels like cheating is kind of inconsequential.
0:23:07.53 → 0:24:02.32
The next one was sabotage. So when someone uses cheating as a way to blow up their relationship because they can't bring themselves to actually have the conversation directly and deal with someone's sadness or pleading or anything like that, so they really torpedo it in a way that means it's probably too far gone to salvage. The fourth one was they like who they get to be with the other person that allows them to experience a side of themselves or be seen in a certain way that they're missing in their relationship. And the last one was to make their partner jealous or to get their partner's attention, often as a last ditch way to try and save the relationship or to get their partner to notice them when they're feeling invisible or taken for granted. If you've enjoyed this episode, I hope that it has really been helpful.
0:24:02.38 → 0:25:05.33
And as I said at the start, I know it's a really tough conversation to have and brings up a lot of things for a lot of people, but it really is very common and so I'm hoping that it's at least given you a bit more perspective and curiosity. Again, not to excuse this behaviour, but to understand what might be driving it and what's going on under the hood that isn't simply, I'm not good enough, or they didn't love me, because often that is not at all the driver. And if you're listening to this, and you've been the person who has cheated, who's been unfaithful, who's breached a boundary, and you feel a lot of shame and guilt around that, I'm hoping that today's discussion, equally, has been supportive for you in understanding what some of the drivers might be, other than I'm a terrible person. Because I think we can beat ourselves up about this, when really, as I said, it's incredibly common, and most of the time it's just coming from a wounded place rather than being a cold, heartless person who is out to hurt people. Because I think that is a tiny minority of cases.
0:25:05.43 → 0:25:34.61
And the more that we can be compassionate towards ourselves, the more likely we are to be able to shift that pattern and make sure it doesn't happen in future relationships, rather than letting those shadow parts run the show. So if you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a five star rating or a review. It really does help so much. And a final reminder that you can get 50% off any of my Master classes on my course for the month of June on my website with the code June 50. All one word.
0:25:34.73 → 0:25:57.08
Thanks guys. I look forward to seeing you again soon. Take care. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephaniergig.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating.
0:25:57.14 → 0:26:01.42
It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
Understanding Your Origin Wounds with Vienna Pharaon
In today's episode, I'm joined by Vienna Pharaon. Vienna is a licensed marriage & family therapist, creator of the hugely successful @mindfulmft Instagram account, and recently published author of The Origins of You. Vienna has the gift of conveying complex and emotionally dense topics with such nuance. Today she joins me on the podcast to talk about origin wounds and how they impact patterns in relationships as adults and how we can honour our pain and experience.
In today's episode, I'm joined by Vienna Pharaon. Vienna is a licensed marriage & family therapist, creator of the hugely successful @mindfulmft Instagram account, and recently published author of The Origins of You. Vienna has the gift of conveying complex and emotionally dense topics with such nuance. Today she joins me on the podcast to talk about origin wounds and how they impact patterns in relationships as adults and how we can honour our pain and experience.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
What happens when you hide behind a façade of being "fine"
The five origin wounds (worthiness, belonging, trust, safety and prioritisation)
Why we might struggle to explore our family dynamics
What happens when we avoid being in pain properly
Finding peace with the pain
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.17 → 0:00:33.58
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge, and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment.
0:00:33.61 → 0:01:05.66
Today I'm joined by Vienna. Vienna, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. So you've just released a book, The Origins of you, which I am partway through, and I have to say, maybe like a few pages in. I was listening to the audiobook, but what I imagine would be a few pages into the introduction, and I was in tears, vouch for the fact that it's incredible. And your work, more broadly has been so insightful for me.
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I was saying to my partner in advance of recording this that in the early days of my Instagram account a few years ago, before I had any confidence to share any original thought, I think my Instagram account was more or less a proxy fan account of yours. We share so much of your work because it is so profoundly insightful and you have such a gift for conveying really complex, emotionally dense and tender topics with such nuance and in a way that is so compassionate and really invites people, I suppose, to feel safe to turn towards those things in this work. So I love for people who are maybe not familiar with your work, although I suspect many people will be. You focus a lot on family systems and origin wounds. Can you give a little context for why that's so important and why that's kind of the lens and the starting point for your work with people?
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Yeah. And thank you for that generous introduction. Yeah. Just taking that in. Thank you.
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I came into this work unsurprisingly, as most therapists do, to resolve that which was unresolved in my own life. And I chuckle because I think sometimes we know it as therapists that that's why we're entering into this field of work, and other times we don't know. And I didn't really know it. I think I had taken an aptitude test when I was in 7th grade, and it said that I would either do something in sports or I would become a marriage therapist. And I got into psychology, and I was curious about relationships, and I got into this work not actually knowing that there was unresolved pain in my life.
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We'll rewind a little bit. My parents went through a separation, nine year divorce process when I was in first grade. And when I look back on it now with perspective, it was highly conflictual, really hard to be around and witness. There was a lot of psychological abuse, manipulation, gaslighting, paranoia, emotional flooding, just high, high, high conflict. And I am an only child, so as a little tiny human in this system.
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One of the things that I took on was believing that there wasn't space for me to not be okay. Because what I saw were the two adults in my life not being okay. And whether that was true or not didn't really matter. What mattered was that was my perspective as a tiny human existing in this environment. And so I started to fly under the radar.
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I started to really present as a needless little girl. I was always okay, I was always fine, I was always unaffected. And that role that developed early on really came through with me into my adult years and relationships. And I continued to be this needless woman, was always fine, the cool girl persona, totally unaffected by things, boundaryless, et cetera, et cetera. And it's funny, when I started my graduate work, my parents divorced.
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Didn't affect me, I promise. They're good friends now. We do holidays together. They can drive in the same car. I had all these explanations and reasons for why it did not affect me.
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And what it eventually brought me to was that I had to hold that position in my life because not holding that position would require me to feel not holding that position would require me to make space for me to have not been okay. And that was a very overwhelming and confronting thing for me to be with for a long period of time. And there's a catalyst in my mid, late 20s that really brought me to the surrender, really brought me to my knees. It's like, oh, my gosh, I see that I have maintained this role forever my entire life, and there's no room for me to not be okay. There's no room for me to have an emotional experience.
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This was still just the extension of what I had internalised and absorbed as a little girl. And that's a bit of my personal story. But professionally, I continued to come up against this, like people who would present with unwanted patterns in their adult lives where they weren't able to just make a behavioural shift. And what I kept finding was that it kept being tied to unresolved wounding that happened in their past. I take the lens of looking at our family of origin.
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Obviously, there are plenty of other influences that affect us along the way. Media, society, coaches, teachers, past partners. There's plenty of influence that will contribute to this. But I look at our family of origin the first place, the first model, our first education on all of the things from communication to conflict to boundaries, to what love is, what love is not, what safety is, what safety is not, and so forth. And to look at how those frameworks are running the show today.
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Yeah, and thank you for sharing that snippet of your story. That was really what impacted me when I was listening because it really struck very deeply. And I think my kind of inner child, my wounded little one, felt so seen by that story, because even though our circumstances are different, that was very much my pattern in my family system, as well as my parents relationship. They're still together now, but definitely went through pretty regular cycles of strain and, oh, we're going to get divorced. Oh, wait, no, we're not.
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From when I was very young. And so, in addition to that piece, my sister struggled with her mental health and so there was really this experience of, like, why would I want to contribute to the tension and the drama and all of this stuff that's going on that feels so unsafe for me. My only priority in this system is to stabilise other people and to not contribute to all of that stuff that's going on. In my first therapy session a couple of years ago, I turned up and sat down and sort of proclaimed that I was low maintenance. I just had to figure out whether I needed to leave my relationship with my partner at the time, who was bringing up so much stuff like, yeah, I'm fine, it's just about him.
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I can be the priority. Yeah. And you can imagine the raised eyebrow that I got plonking myself down in the therapy chair and declaring my low maintenance, saying, yeah, I've always been the low maintenance one. I'm pretty go with the flow. I don't really have much by way of needs, but I keep coming it up against these patterns and I can kind of look back on that and laugh at it now, but, yeah, I think it is, it's like the being fine is evidence of the wound.
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And it's not to say that that's a bad thing, but it costs us, I think is a good way of looking at it. There was a line in your book, I was driving, listening to the audiobook and I had to pull over and write it in my notes. I think you're actually quoting I think it was Alexandra Solomon. You said, I'm going to butcher it like our wounds and our gifts are next door neighbours, or maybe vice versa. And I thought that was so beautiful, I actually used it as sort of a discussion point in my Mastermind programme this week.
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But looking at it's not that these things are bad or wrong, it's that we've come up with strategies to keep ourselves safe and get our needs met from a very young age. And they are formative in moulding us and who we become and how we move about the world. So I think that it's a really compassionate lens to see ourselves in that light, rather than to feel like this is a pattern that I have to break because there's something wrong with me and seeing it as some sort of defect. Yeah, that's the reframe, right, is that our systems are brilliant systems. Our systems are incredibly clever and instead of being at odds with them instead of being in the shame, in the guilt, in the embarrassment, in the frustration, irritation, annoyance of oh, here we go again, right?
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It's to replace that with the curiosity of what is this behaviour serving to be fine, which is something that you and I both can connect to, was part of the survival, was part of how we learned to navigate through the system at that time. And as you pointed out, if we continue to hold on to I am fine all the time, what that does is it decenters us, it makes it so that there's no space for us to have anything outside of being fine as something that can be prioritised. And all of the things that that affects is intimacy, connection, ability to actually communicate, ability to be in conflict in an authentic way. So we start to see how the things that allowed us to survive back in the day may be blocking many of the things that we crave and wish for. The quote about our pain and our gifts being next to our neighbours, it's a powerful message.
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Most people will say well, I wouldn't be who I am today without what happened. That is true. The valid point and this fear that if we actually tune into what happened that that somehow means that it will eradicate our gifts. That somehow we will lose our edge. That somehow this piece, this part of ourselves that became exceptional at whatever the thing is.
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So I became exceptional at following stories, at listening to the details, at never forgetting something. Because when you grow up in an environment where there is a lot of manipulation, where there's psychological abuse, where there's gaslighting for me, what that required of me was to scan my environment constantly, to look for what was true and what was not true. To remember every last thing that was said so that I couldn't be hoodwinked. And what that turned me into was a phenomenal therapist who remembers everything that people tells her, who can follow a story successfully. And the difference though, so that we do not have the intersection of trauma and gifts is that there is a shift at some point where our gifts are either motivated by the pain or by the trauma or by the wounding or they're motivated by the healing.
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And when we can step into the awareness that I can still have this gift, even though I am tending to my pain. There's such a beautiful opening that happens there, and that feels so important for me to say out loud to your listeners. Because I think a lot of times people hold on to the story of, well, but I am who I am today. I'm proud of who this person is. And yes, be proud of who you are, absolutely.
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And the gifts that you acquired through going through the hard things that you went through, those gifts will not be taken. But you do not need to hold on to the pain in the same way and be motivated and driven by that pain in order to still show up in the world today in this incredible way that you do. Yeah. Beautiful. I'm thinking it might be useful if we sort of took a step back.
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And I know that a lot of people have a level of resistance around looking at family stuff and a level of kind of innate protectiveness over how their childhood played out. And again, I can relate to that. Up until a few years ago, I would have said, nothing to see here. And I know you talk about finding this balance of not overstating it, not understating it, not maximising or minimising, I think is the phrase you use. What would you say to people who do notice that kind of impulse to protect or defend their childhood and their parents?
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Oh, yeah, right. Again, I know this one well. There's a lot of reasons why we want to steer clear of it. Sometimes we're afraid of what it is that we're going to find. It feels like it's going to be too overwhelming.
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We don't want to go there. What's going to happen when I open up Pandora's box? We appreciate the relationships that we have with our family at this point. They're in an okay place, and the idea of going back in there and looking for something and exploring something might change the dynamics that we have today that we're happy with and feel like we can manage all right. Maybe other people have somebody deceased in their family.
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And so the idea of exploring something and that person not being here to have conversation or for reconciliation, that can be a constraint. We hear people often say they did the best that they could with what they had, and there are tremendous narratives around that that will block us from going to that place. And sometimes we idealise what our childhood was. This was pretty good. We put ourselves on the I talk about the wound comparison in the book, where we sort of put ourselves on this spectrum where if somebody had it worse than we did, based on our own perspective and opinions about it, then we feel foolish or silly for, quote unquote, complaining about something when it was, overall a pretty good experience.
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All of this part of this work is about holding multiple truths. I say it pretty early on in the book that this is not an act of throwing parents or caretakers or the adults in our lives under the bus. This isn't us going on a wild goose hunt. This is about being able to name and honour what our experiences are. And all of those things, all of those games that we can play with ourselves, the distractions, that's what they are.
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They are distractions away from us, honouring our pain. It can be true that they did the best that they could with what they had. It can be true that their parents were way worse to them than they were to us. Right? I have endless stories of what it could sound like.
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All of that can be true and it doesn't take away from what your experience was. And it's so important that we are able to honour what the experience was and put a period at the end of that sentence. And one of the questions that I ask in the book is what did you want most as a child and not get, well, I wanted to be prioritised more by my dad, but he was working so much and he was doing that because he was providing for the family. Well, that's really different than saying I want it to be a priority period to just hold there. Because the moment that we go into the explanation, even when the explanation is true, invalid, it moves us away from being able to honour our pain and begin to work with our pain and acknowledge it and witness it and grieve alongside of it.
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And so absolutely I understand that turning towards this can be scary, can be overwhelming. Sometimes people are like, I don't want to go to therapy because I'm going to hate them, or the relationship is going to end, or I know that those are concerns for people. And we go at a pace that feels okay for the person, whether listening, reading, in therapy, because ultimately, at the end of the day, if we avoid being with our pain properly, our pain will find very clever ways of trying to bring us back to it. Yeah, that feels like a nice segue into this tendency that we have often subconsciously to gravitate towards people, situations, relationships that touch our wounds, that feel familiar, that recreate past patterns. Maybe not in a really obvious literal surface way, although sometimes why do we do that?
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I think so many people at a conscious level go, I don't know why I keep doing the same thing when it's not in alignment with what I want. I want a healthy relationship with an available person and yet here I am, chasing after this person who is unsure about me and I'm trying to earn their attention and affection and prove myself and whatever else the pattern might be. Why is there such a magnetic pull to familiar pain? Yeah. Oh, I know.
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Like I said, that irritation, that annoyance, that frustration with the self when we find ourselves right back at the thing that we said we wouldn't do, whether it's engaging in the conflict in the same way, to your point. Dating that emotionally unavailable person for the, umpteenth, time patterns, the unwanted patterns in our adult lives that we can't shake will point us to our origin pain. I want to ask the listener to take a moment to try to externalise pain for a moment. Like allow it to be a separate entity to exist outside of your body for a second. Maybe it looks a certain way to you, maybe it has a colour, a shape, whatever, but allow it to exist outside of your body for a second.
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And I bet if your pain could talk this is what I think my pain sounded like. It was like, hey, I know that you would like to move on with life, and I know that you have goals for yourself, or who you want to date, or how you want to navigate this conflict differently, or the fact that you want to be able to set that boundary. I promise you that I am not trying to destroy your life. I promise you that I am not trying to ruin you or keep you stuck. I know that you want to get on with things.
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I know that you want to have this new way of living, this desirable way of living, being in relationship, dating, et cetera. But if you just move on, if you just brute force your way through and try to change something, then you forget about me. And so I can't let you just abandon what the hurt or the harm has been. You can't just move on from me. That's why I keep bringing you back into the patterns, because that's the only way I can get you to pay attention to me.
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And so if you could turn towards me, so that you could acknowledge me, just witness what we went through, so that we can just be in the grief of what that was, then I promise you I will loosen my grip. Then I promise that I will not have to keep bringing you back into the same patterns over and over and over again. But I promise that when I bring you into these patterns, it's just my way of trying to get you to pay attention to something that you haven't spent enough time with. Totally. I'm curious.
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When is that an opportunity? And when is it prone to being retraumatizing or just a reenactment of old pain in a way that isn't productive or constructive? How do we know the difference? And how much of that is within our control versus circumstantial? Yeah, right.
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I think part of it is about what the intention of it is, kind of going back into something that is painful. We don't have to remember all of the details, we don't have to necessarily even go back into a particular scenario to relive it. It's about honouring the pain, honouring the experience of not feeling good enough, of not feeling safe, of not feeling like it was okay for you to be authentic and still loved to the feeling and sensation of not being important enough to the people you wanted to be important to. The actual details are far less important than what it left you with. And to honour that you maybe did not feel safe, that you were not protected to honour that you did not feel good enough unless you were perfect, unless you were performing, unless you were pleasing, unless you were XYZ, whatever it is, that is what we're tending to.
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And so, yeah, I think for folks who have trauma, complex trauma, doing this work alongside a trauma informed professional is incredibly encouraged. Because certainly this is not about just like going into reenactments to drum up some stuff and have it be super raw, but it is about getting intentional with witnessing the experiences in terms of the sensation, in terms of how it was internalised, in terms of what we were left with, because that is what is ruling our lives. Yeah. So in your book, you talk about these five origin wounds, and I don't know that we'll have time to go through each of them in turn, but they are worthiness. Belonging, safety, trust, I think you've got it all.
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Maybe we could just start by talking through the worthiness wound, because I know that's where you start in the book, and I know that tends to be pretty universal to varying degrees and in different expressions, but I know that your take, and certainly my experience is that we all have some version of a worthiness wound. What does that look like? How can that manifest? And maybe what do we do with that once we realise that that lives within us? Yeah, right.
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As I was writing the book and really working on this wound, I was struck by I really think that every single one of us rubs up against a worthiness wound at some point. And yes, as you said, some to a much more intense degree than others. But the worthiness wound is when you there's a lot of conditions around worthiness. So this idea that I am not good enough or valuable or deserving unless I am XYZ. So if I am perfect, if I am a pleaser, if I perform the way that you want me to, if I am the comic relief, if I get the straight A's, if I am a really strong athlete, that is the thing that gets me love, connection, attention, validation, praise, approval and so forth.
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So oftentimes there is a condition there. So I usually say to the perfectionists, the pleasers, the performers out there, those are usually the folks who will have some version of this worthiness wound, present my worthiness wound. And I shared a little bit about that story of kind of flying under the radar, being this needless child feeling that there wasn't room for me to have feelings and not be okay. And one of the things that continued to contribute to that is my dad was phenomenal in so many ways, but one of the things that he did was if I behaved or acted out or said something that he didn't like that. He didn't agree with when I wasn't easy going.
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What he would do as punishment was he would give me the silent treatment, sometimes for days or weeks on end. And so that really reminded me that when you're easygoing, when you don't have needs, when you're not difficult, then you get presence, love, connection, help support all of the things. But when you are difficult, then that's when it's taken from you. And I found myself in that space of that really reiterated the origin around that role that I had taken on as a kiddo. And it reminded me, yeah, don't speak out, don't express anything that's outside of the pretty little box because when you do, the thing that you want the most is withheld taken from you that there is a punishment that happens here.
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And so, yeah, just again to encapsulate it, that worthiness wound comes when we grow up in an environment where we don't feel good enough, when we don't feel deserving, when we don't feel valuable. And sometimes it's the full stop. It doesn't matter what we do. And for other folks, it might be, unless you are perfect, unless you do what we require you to do. I can probably touch very quickly on each of the wounds just to at least high level give everyone a bit of a sense.
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So the belonging wound is some people grow up in families where a family system will say something like, this is what we do in this family, this is what we believe, this is what we think. There's this emphasis as to be a part of us means this is what we do think, believe. And if you go against that, then you're on the outside. Dr. Gabar Mate talks about how when we're kids, when attachment is threatened, we will trade authenticity for it every time.
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Makes a lot of sense. And authenticity and attachment are our lifelines, they're vital. But when we're kiddos, when we are really tiny, attachment is necessary. That is literally our survival. And so we will change who we are in order to fit in.
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That's the first stop. Somewhere along the way, we might take a path of rebellion. So sometimes in those teenage years we're like, screw it, I believe this or I'm going to do the exact opposite of what a parent wants me to. But in those early, early years, we adapt to what the system requires of us so that we can quote, unquote, fit in. So often, if you felt like you were the black sheep, if you had differences that the family didn't understand or maybe shunned or rejected, those are oftentimes the experiences where a belonging wound might originate, the prioritisation wound, okay, this is when we didn't feel important enough in our family.
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And so how might that manifest? Maybe a parent who is a workaholic, maybe there's a different type of addiction in the family system where that is the priority, a mental health challenge that takes up the space, the energy. You mentioned this earlier, a sibling, for example. I think you might have said mental health around that, but an illness of some sort where the attention and the priority is somewhere else, where it just takes that energy away from you and we can sit here and say, well, it makes good sense, or oh yeah, of course that needed to be the priority. But it doesn't change that you did not feel like you were important enough in that space.
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I share a story in the prioritisation chapter about a client of mine who in the book I call Andre, and he has a single mom and he would talk about his mom with such love and adoration and respect. She would work multiple jobs, double shifts every day except for Sunday, where they would go to church together Sunday morning and then they would have brunch together afterwards. And he would sit here and he would say, I respect her. He could really rationalise how her working double shift was her way of prioritising him. He could find his way to that story.
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But ultimately still what was at the core of it was that what he wanted most was to be a priority through time spent with her. And that was so hard for him to come to that space because he wanted to protect her, because he knew she was absolutely doing the best that she could. She was giving everything that she had. And it's scenarios like this that are incredibly heartbreaking because you can see how much love and respect and care that is there, but it doesn't change that a wound still exists. And I think that's an important reminder for the listener that wounds do not have to come from abusive, negligent, mal intended places.
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Sometimes wounds are created because of the natural circumstances of life, and I think sometimes that is hard for us. It can be even harder when it's not so obvious to actually allow for and create space for there to be a wound there, when it isn't this blatant lack of respect or this blatant abuse that takes place. I was just going to ask, maybe you were going to sort of move to this is how does the prioritisation wound show up and shape us kind of behaviorally in the way that we relate to ourselves and others? Yeah, in a number of different ways. One of the ways might be that we, through patterns, will keep choosing people who do not prioritise us, where there are other things that are very important to them in their lives, where it doesn't need to be apples to apples.
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Where if you grew up with someone with addiction in the family, that you necessarily partner with someone who is struggling with addiction. But you might choose someone who prioritises something else over you and that keeps bringing you back into the wound. You might be someone yourself who is a lot of times people with a prioritisation wound become over givers. They do everything to prioritise everyone else. To try to teach people, show them this is how I want to be prioritised.
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What's the giggle for there? I relate to it. It's also been a discussion I've been having with the clients in my mastermind group. This tendency of the frantic over giving and deprioritizing ourselves prioritising others, but then this kind of bubbling resentment of what about me? And we have to look at the ways in which we participate in that dynamic and I think get really honest about not creating lots of space for ourselves.
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Because that's the other side of the coin, right? When we've got this story that the loving thing to do is to neglect ourselves in favour of tending to others, then I think to the extent that other people don't reciprocate, we have the story of you don't care about me the way I care about you or as much as I care about you. So I think that whenever we notice those stories, it's a bit of a smoke signal for something deeper that we need to look at that's, right? Yeah, always a smoke signal. Right?
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Because it just recreates. Why don't you care about me as much as I care about you? There's something familiar about that and that's in this book, the goal is what is familiar about what's happening when we have reactivity. That's a great indicator that there's an origin, you said it before. We're able to give advice that we can't take another indicator.
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We say to our friends absolutely don't go back to your ex. If your ex is messaging, don't respond and then you're there responding yourself. It's not as easy when you're in the experience of it because that's your wounding, that's playing into the decision making rationally. We know the quote unquote right thing to do. We're able to give that advice, but we can't take it.
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And so these are really good indicators that there is some irresolution around a particular wound that is showing up in that space. I think to your point about the prioritisation, it's like ultimately, of course, we want to be in relationships with people where there's reciprocity, where we do feel like we are important, that we matter, that we are valued. But you spoke to it so well, this tendency to actually wind up deprioritizing ourselves. So instead of coming to ourselves, first of what does it look like to actually prioritise me? We continue to outsource it.
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If I give to these people, what I hope will happen is that they'll give to me. If I show you and model how great I am at prioritising you, then maybe you will be able to do that for me. And again, that's not a really good way to heal a wound.
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That's a good way to just keep it going and keep it going and keep it going and to be able to go inwards and tend to that pain so that we don't have to keep finding these ways of reenactment, either through repetition or through opposition. That's really the goal here. And so in this origin healing practise of being able to identify what our wound or wounds are, number of people now at this point exactly. Have that one, have that one, have that one. It's like, yeah, we do have to find that appropriate way to be with this pain so that it doesn't have the same lock on us.
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The trust wound unsurprising, where there's an experience of betrayal, deceit, lies. It might be something that happened to you or it might be something that you observed or witnessed. So obviously a really common one is if there was infidelity or an affair that took place in the family system, if there were family secrets that you were expected to keep, or if there was a family secret that was kept from you. Sometimes these are a bit more of the outrageous ones, but they still happen. Where maybe a family member gambles away an education fund or someone who takes out credit cards in your name as a child, and then kind of in the more day to day ones, where maybe there is a promise that is made over and over again that somebody doesn't actually follow through on.
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And I'm not talking about, oh, a situation had to change. Of course we've got normal life stuff, but I'm talking about these commitments, these agreements, these promises that always fall through, that let us know that we can't trust the important people in our lives. And also one of the other ones is that we can sometimes hear, and usually this will come from an unresolved adult too, but someone might make sweeping generalisation statements. Never trust a man, never trust that there's some storyline that then gets imprinted in us and absorbed by us based on what the adults are telling us. And then the last one, of course, is the safety wound.
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And when we're talking about the absence of safety, we are often talking about the presence of abuse. This is a really tender, raw chapter. I remind people to take very good care, of course, when we're reading it, but we have to name it and unfortunately, we have to talk about abuse when we are talking about the absence of safety. And so emotional, physical, sexual, psychological abuse, negligence, recklessness. But ultimately a safety origin wound is going to arise when you didn't feel like your well being was cared for, had concern for, was respected, honoured and protected by the adults in your life.
0:38:00.92 → 0:38:30.19
Yeah, thank you for that summary. I'm interested on the trust wound. Something that comes up for me like none of those kind of big dramatic headline ones, but certainly my memory of my family system was a lot of things being swept under the rug. Let's just collectively kind of pretend that things are fine. We'll sit down at the dinner table even though we know mom and dad aren't talking, and there's stuff going on and just kind of playing that game.
0:38:30.34 → 0:39:01.38
And I notice for myself that I have such a visceral response as an adult in my relationships to we're not talking about the things that are clearly going on here. I don't know if that's an expression of a trust wound or maybe something else, but that's certainly something for me. Yeah, right. I can't trust you to be able to have the hard conversation. It's not necessarily a family secret, but it kind of hangs out in that space, the unspoken hidden thing that is right here in front of us.
0:39:01.48 → 0:39:15.61
Right, exactly. The pretending. And I can't trust the people here to not pretend, to not hide. Can we just say the thing, bring the elephant into the room and let's expose them? Right.
0:39:15.65 → 0:39:47.11
It's like that's, that craving, because we don't have to go deep into it. But what did pretending and hiding lead to? Yeah, I think for me, it was probably even as a very young child. It's like, if I know what's going on, then I can shift into my fixer role and my peacekeeper role and I can go about tending to everyone. And I would go to my mum, then I'd go to my sister and I'd counsel and I'd try and kind of bring everyone back.
0:39:47.18 → 0:40:06.22
But if we weren't talking about it, I don't have enough information to do my job in the system. Which sounds crazy when we're talking about a six year old, but I think that was the thing. No, it doesn't. Right. You see how clever I mean, there's a lot of layers to what you just said.
0:40:06.35 → 0:40:36.08
I needed you to not hide and pretend so I could go into appointed manager. Right. We can see how much is caught and stuck in there. But to your point is that you wanted the adults to lead, you wanted the adults to take charge. You didn't want to be in that role, you did it because you had to.
0:40:36.18 → 0:41:01.91
But ultimately, what I hear you saying is that I needed the adults to be able to say what needed to be said and be responsible for what they needed to be responsible for, so that you didn't need to step into that role. And can I trust the people in my life now to do that? Or do I need to be hyper vigilant, constantly looking, scanning, trying to figure out what's brushed under the rug right? Now. Did I see it?
0:41:01.92 → 0:41:26.50
Did I not see it? What's being said, what's not being said, what's being pretended, what's not being pretended, what's being hidden, what's not being hidden without trusting that it requires you to be in a hypervigilant vigilant space of constantly scanning your environment. Can I trust you to be able to have the hard conversation with me? Can I trust you to be able to bring uncomfortable things forward? Can I trust you to be honest?
0:41:26.63 → 0:41:33.75
Whatever it is, fill in the blank. Right? Yeah. But that's how it can continue to show up present day. Yeah, absolutely.
0:41:33.87 → 0:42:23.27
It's like I have to be on the front foot and get ahead of it, because I can't trust that as and when things arise, they'll be spoken about openly and navigated in a mature way. I feel like it's my responsibility to spot the problem, name the problem, take courage of working through the problem and ultimately getting us to a resolution. Because I've taken that on as my role and I don't trust that that will happen in the absence of my leadership or my stewardship. And I think that in adult relationships, that can lead us to a lot of burnout and resentment, this sense of like, everything's my responsibility. And yet again, we see this theme of because I'm making everything my responsibility, and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
0:42:23.43 → 0:42:53.82
It's like if I don't ever create space for someone to show up, or if I don't voice the need and voice the fear and explain it, I just go and do the thing, preempting that if I don't do it, no one will. We don't really create space for change. Yeah. And that's what I get into into the third part of the book. Because it's only so much to be able to identify our wounds and witness and grieve and be in the emotional component of this.
0:42:53.84 → 0:43:13.65
That's really important for us to move some of our pain. But then it's like, how do wounds get in the way when we're talking about healthy communication, navigating conflict. Well, navigating boundaries properly. Right. Because exactly.
0:43:13.74 → 0:43:56.35
To your point, if I don't shift anything about this, then I remain in this hyper vigilant space. I do not ever let someone bring something forward. I can't have a trusting relationship, whether it's with partner, friendship, whomever. It's like all of these things that actually block what I imagine that you or someone in a position like this would feel. And so to be able to see our part in blocking what it is that we're looking for and craving for, but instead of it being shame, blame, guilt, embarrassment, we're actually able to step into the compassion, the grace, the curiosity of OOH.
0:43:56.48 → 0:44:13.14
Yeah. My behaviours serve something. They're here for a reason. And when I can get curious about that, then I can make a shift. I remember I was in a I know you just had I imagine maybe his episode will come out before mine.
0:44:13.17 → 0:44:42.34
But you spoke to my husband earlier and I remember early on in our dating, there was a conflict that we got into. I have no idea what it was about, but what I do remember is that I was very committed to proving my point. I was very committed to being right and I was going in on it and he's like, okay, I got it. I understand. And I kept my favourite part about this is he told this story as well.
0:44:42.39 → 0:44:51.66
So I'm so interested to that's so funny, your versions of it. Okay, please. Let's see.
0:44:53.79 → 0:45:06.04
Yeah, you put me on notice and lol because my version clearly is going to be right. Naturally. Of course, naturally. So I keep going. He's like, I got it, I understand.
0:45:06.14 → 0:45:20.41
And I'm doubling down. I'm tripling down. I can't stop. And I have this out of body moment experience where I'm almost, like, looking in on myself, just continuing to go, and I'm like, stop. Like, enough.
0:45:20.50 → 0:45:37.31
This is not this is not attractive. Like, this is not good. And I remember once I finally stopped, there was a lot of shame and embarrassment that came in, if I'm being really honest. It was early on before we were even engaged. This behaviour is really unbecoming.
0:45:37.36 → 0:46:13.31
Like, I don't even know if this person is going to want to be with me. And certainly if I were to continue behaving this way, I don't think that he would want to be with me. But instead of just staying in the shame, I got really curious about what needing to be right served, what is that all about? And we'll link to what people already have heard and understood about my story. I already shared that I grew up in an environment where there was a lot of psychological manipulation, gaslighting and yeah, changing of stories.
0:46:13.47 → 0:47:02.32
And part of my survival, part of my safety, was that if I'm right, if I can prove my point, then I am safe. And if I am not right, then I am unsafe. And the moment that clicked in for me, there was so much softness, so much gentleness for myself, because I could see how this part of me needed to be right as a form of creating some type of protection and safety for myself. What I needed to do, however, was I needed the wise, adult, mature Vienna to actually step into her driver's seat, as opposed to the unhealed, unresolved, pained little girl who was like, this is not a safe environment. You have got to have it right.
0:47:02.37 → 0:47:24.23
You have got to prove your point. Otherwise it's not okay for you. And so to be able to step into this space of who is in front of me, it required some healing around that safety origin wound for me, but eventually that discernment of, okay, where am I now? What do I know to be true? Who am I with right now?
0:47:24.35 → 0:47:47.59
And how can I step away from the pain driving this behaviour versus my healing driving this behaviour? And easier said than done. Lots of layers and complexity to this, but I think that this is I hope that that offers something of just because I'm doing something that I feel ashamed of. Just because I'm doing something that I'm like. OOH.
0:47:47.61 → 0:48:12.33
I feel very embarrassed about this part of me when we can shift away from just existing in the shame and embarrassment and move towards the curiosity of what this is serving. Why is this here? What is this trying to protect me from? That's where the gifts are. And so, yeah, I would invite people to think about the things that they don't like about themselves, the things that they do that they're like, oh, this is not great.
0:48:12.40 → 0:48:33.83
I hate this. I wish I'd stopped doing this, and to actually become more curious about them, to see what it is that that behaviour might be attempting to protect. Yeah, totally. Beautifully said. The question that I know Dick Schwartz always asks around our parts, it's like, what is that part afraid would happen if it didn't do the thing?
0:48:34.00 → 0:49:02.22
In your case, what is it afraid would happen if I wasn't right or I didn't make sure that everyone was in agreement that I'm right? And we can get to the heart of, like, what's this really about? For me? Why does this feel so important and big and life or death? But, yeah, it's big work and it's messy work, but it's very rewarding and liberating work when we can have the courage to do it.
0:49:05.15 → 0:49:44.50
I'm glad that you said liberating. That's part of the subtitle of the book, how breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate the Way We Live in Love and very intentional about what the titles were. And that's right. I think in this work, there is an incredible liberation that takes place and that doing this work does change our relationships and our lives. My hope, my goal is that there is a much greater internal peace that actually takes place to live the life that you want, to have the relationships that you want.
0:49:44.55 → 0:50:07.52
Beautiful. Yes, of course. I think that's probably most people's goal, but this sense of internal peace, so profound, so powerful, so important. And when we begin to do this work, I think that leads us to that, to a sense of internal peace. Beautiful.
0:50:07.97 → 0:50:23.59
Vienna, thank you so much. This has been such a lovely conversation. If people want to go deeper with you and your work, where should they find you? Yeah, you can find me on Instagram. At @mindfulmft as in marriagefamilytherapy.
0:50:23.77 → 0:50:43.16
Viennaferon.com, NewYorkcouplescounseling.com. But almost all of my offerings are always in the bio of Instagram. But of course, the book, you can find that anywhere that books are sold. There's a lot of beautiful work there. And I'm always posting new offerings that we have going on.
0:50:43.95 → 0:51:00.89
Beautiful. And, yes, I echo all of that and certainly go out and buy the book and read the book or listen to the book. It is really profound and beautiful. And certainly, if you've enjoyed this conversation, you will love, love the origins of you. Thank you so much.
0:51:01.09 → 0:51:22.29
Thank you. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at Stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much.
0:51:22.41 → 0:51:25.48
Thanks again for being here, and I hope to see you again soon.
"How to enjoy being single when I really want a relationship?"
When you really want a relationship, enjoying being single can be something incredibly challenging. In today's Q&A style episode, I’m diving into how to enjoy being single when all you really want is a relationship.
When you really want a relationship, enjoying being single can be something incredibly challenging. In today's Q&A style episode, I’m diving into how to enjoy being single when all you really want is a relationship.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Owning your desire for a loving, healthy relationship
Being grateful in the present
What it means to actually enjoy your life being single
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Use the code PHOENIX for $150 off the Higher Love Course for a limited time only.
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.41 --> 0:00:40.45
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. You hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's episode is a Q and A episode and I am answering the question of how can I enjoy being single when, if I'm being honest, I really wish I was in a relationship.
0:00:40.62 --> 0:01:38.15
So I know a lot of people are in this situation of being single and deep down actually just wanting a relationship and probably coming up against a lot of advice on social media and elsewhere, telling them to enjoy being single and really savour in that experience and make the most of it. And you should be really happy that you're single. And while I think that advice is coming from a well intentioned place, sometimes it can be frustrating when that's just not how we're feeling and we can almost feel like we are deficient or we can feel some shame for our true desire, which is to be in a relationship. So I'm going to be talking through that and giving some reframes and perspective shifts and permission slips that will hopefully help you to navigate this period of your life, this season of your life, with a little more self. Compassion and in a way that allows you to have both.
0:01:38.27 --> 0:02:14.93
To own your desire to be in relationship while also enjoying your life as it is today. So that's what we're going to be talking about in today's episode. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements I wanted to share the featured review for today, which I've actually taken from Spotify. You might have heard me say recently, Spotify now lets you leave little comments under Episodes. And so to try and be fair to the people who are Spotify listeners rather than Apple, who haven't historically been able to leave reviews, I'm going to start drawing from the Spotify comments in addition to the Apple podcast.
0:02:15.01 --> 0:02:50.57
Reviews in the review of the week So today's is I discovered your podcast by chance while going through the hardest time in my life and I can't express the profound impact it's made. You taught me the wise and gave me hope for the future that I couldn't see. Thank you so much. That is such a touching and humbling review and I'm so, so grateful for you and I'm grateful that you found me and that you were able to find your way back to hope. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierig.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my Master classes.
0:02:50.70 --> 0:04:01.44
The other quick announcement that I wanted to share in keeping with the theme of today's episode, which is around being single and wanting to be in a relationship. My Higher Love Course, which is a breakup course that I created last year, is currently available for $150 off. So if you use the discount code Phoenix you can save $150 on the price of that course. It's a fully self study course where you get access to the full thing upon sign up and you can take it at your own pace. The reason that I'm mentioning that today is because in addition to helping you process a breakup, which the first half of the course is around, it also really allows you to embrace not only your life as a newfound single person, but to really own your desires and cultivate a level of clarity and confidence around your desires for future partnership in a way that feels really empowering rather than desperate or needy or any other negative label we might put on those things.
0:04:01.51 --> 0:04:34.32
So if you're someone who has been through a breakup recently and you are looking for some support or maybe it's not all that recent, but you think there's still some processing to do and some grieving to do around a previous relationship and you're looking to really anchor into greater self worth for the future. My higher love course is a really great option I've had. I think upwards of 300 students go through that course and it always gets really beautiful feedback. So that might be something to cheque out and I will link that in the show notes. Okay, so let's talk about this.
0:04:34.45 --> 0:05:08.90
How can I enjoy being single when I actually really just want to be in a relationship? So without knowing anything about the person who asked this question, I'm going to frame the discussion in terms of anxious attachment because I think that most people who have this experience probably will fall closer to that end of the spectrum in terms of their attachment patterns. I know that makes up a bulk of my listeners in any event. So I think that we have to start by just owning what we desire. And I alluded to this in the introduction.
0:05:09.01 --> 0:05:42.41
I think that we can feel almost pathetic. We can be really judgmental of ourselves for the fact that we want to be in a relationship and I think that that isn't helpful. As I always say, if you're feeling some sort of primary emotion like sadness or longing or grief or whatever else, anxiety even and rather than having compassion for that and seeking to understand it, we just put some judgement over the top and we criticise ourselves and make ourselves wrong for the way we're feeling. We are invariably making it worse. We are just adding fuel to the fire.
0:05:42.48 --> 0:06:31.24
We are adding more tension to a system that is already under stress. So it's really the opposite of what we need is to make ourselves wrong for a desire and I would say particularly for a desire that is as beautiful and pure as wanting to be in a healthy, loving relationship. I think that that is something that we should absolutely own and be proud of and be confident in. I don't think that that makes us desperate or needy or pathetic or any other thing that we might put on that I think we can just throw that kind of thinking in the bin. So my big permission slip for you at the outset of this episode and if you are someone who struggles with this, is you don't need to pretend not to want a relationship in order to enjoy being single.
0:06:31.37 --> 0:07:27.06
And indeed you are absolutely encouraged to own that desire, if that is your heart's desire to be in a relationship. Now, with that being said and holding that in one hand, can we find a way to hold in the other hand, enjoyment of life in whatever season you're in rather than making those things an either or? I can't enjoy being single because I want to be in a relationship. I think that this kind of thinking, this once I am there, then I can be happy. Once this other thing happens, this very conditional approach to our joy and contentedness and peace and satisfaction in life and it's really, really easy to get stuck in that because we can find ourselves, without even realising it, moving the goalposts on ourselves forever and ever and ever.
0:07:27.08 --> 0:08:23.72
It is this carrot dangling thing of once X-Y-Z thing happens, then I will be happy. Once I make this change about myself, then I will love myself, then I will accept myself. That is a real slippery slope and it's not actually conducive to happiness and fulfilment. Anyone will tell you, anyone who works in this space, teaches in this space, will tell you that the trick is to be grateful in the present for what you have while knowing what it is that you desire and being able to hold both of those things at the one time. So saying I really want to be in a relationship, that is my heart's desire and I'm not going to sit at home and shrink or not enjoy my life in anticipation of that thing or unless and until I have this thing.
0:08:23.90 --> 0:09:38.78
Because that is really placing way too much responsibility on a relationship to create our happiness or to be the sole source of our happiness and fulfilment and enjoyment of life. And what I would say to you is, and I talk about this in my higher love course, the calibre of relationship that you are going to attract as someone who has already created this beautiful, big, full, satisfying life, you are going to attract a really different calibre of person and relationship from that place, rather than the place of lack and emptiness. And I need some person to make me feel happy, to make me feel worthy, to make me feel pleasure and satisfaction and enjoyment. So I think that the more we can cultivate that as our baseline, as our starting point and really commit to building this very beautiful life with many pillars to it. Rather than just feeling the immense lack that can come with wanting to be in a relationship but not being in one, the more we focus on what we don't have that can really drag us down and probably lead us to indulge or engage in connections and relationships that
0:09:38.80 --> 0:09:40.14
aren't actually meeting.
0:09:40.17 --> 0:10:34.83
The bar that we would like to set for ourselves because we are coming from this place of anything is better than nothing that tends not to lead to the greatest relationship. So I think that the more we can enjoy our lives as single people, what we're really trying to do there is enjoy our own company and enjoy our work and enjoy what we spend our time doing and enjoy our friendships and really build out beautiful community. All of these things mean that we have many pillars to our lives and the relationship just becomes this beautiful addition to that landscape rather than the only thing propping up our lives and making us feel worthy and okay and giving us a sense of meaning where otherwise we would be plunged into darkness. That is an over indexing on a relationship and expecting it to solve all of your problems. So I think when people talk about can you enjoy life as a single person?
0:10:35.00 --> 0:10:57.87
It's not to say make the most of it, go out and sleep with a bunch of people because you can or you have to enjoy the process of casual dating. I don't think that that's what people mean. And if they do mean that, then if that doesn't resonate with you, again, you can chuck that in the bin. You don't have to take that on. And if it were me, that certainly wouldn't resonate with me because that's just not who I am.
0:10:58.02 --> 0:12:01.29
So I think that rather than hearing that advice around being single as meaning you have to enjoy dating lots of people or having those casual interactions, it's more can I see this season of my life as an opportunity. To really upgrade, to maybe do work on my own inner world, on my parts, on my woundedness and really all of that energy and attention that I'm accustomed to devoting to other people and focusing on them. Can I? Focus some of that back on me and use that as a way to nurture my relationship with myself and upgrade that relationship so that I'm ready to meet someone from a really grounded, secure, self respecting place in my next relationship. And can I trust that that will pay such dividends when the time comes rather than waiting and feeding stories of low self worth and of shame and of everything else and expecting that to yield a relationship that's going to solve all of my problems?
0:12:01.46 --> 0:12:56.51
I hate to be the one to tell you, but that almost invariably doesn't work. And so the more that we can use those transitional periods as opportunities to spring clean so to speak, that is a beautiful, beautiful time and it is a beautiful opportunity and as I said tends to pay huge dividends in terms of what we then make ourselves available for in another relationship. And even as I say that, I'm reminded to make the point that it's not like you are doing all of those things for someone else, you are doing them for yourself first and foremost. And that is an important reminder for anxiously attached people who tend to orient everything as being about someone else, to attract a partner or to make someone else happy or to get someone back or any other kind of agenda. It always tends to be other focused.
0:12:56.56 --> 0:14:12.89
And so as much as possible use this period of time where you don't have an other to orbit around as is your default to really tend to that relationship with yourself because that is your work for all anxiously attached people. That is your work is to build up a relationship with self that feels nourishing and self sustaining and allows a level of independence that you can then go to relationship from a place of choice rather than need and desperation and unsafety needing the relationship to make all of those fears go away. So I hope that that has given you a bit of a paradigm shift on how to relate to being single and also given you, as I said, a permission slip to want to be in a relationship because there is absolutely nothing wrong or shameful about holding that desire. But I suppose the takeaway being can you trust that this season is a beautiful opportunity to prepare for that and to really lay the foundations for the next relationship to be a really nourishing one and a really healthy one. And that the healthier you are going into that the more secure you
0:14:12.93 --> 0:14:18.91
are, the clearer you are, then that is going to be a really, really beautiful next relationship.
0:14:19.06 --> 0:14:36.80
So the work that you do in preparing yourself for that is certainly not going to be wasted. If you've enjoyed this episode, as always, super grateful. If you can leave a rating or a review, make sure you hit subscribe and follow the show. No matter where you're listening. Share it with the people in your life, share it on social media.
0:14:36.93 --> 0:14:48.86
All of that good stuff is hugely helpful in continuing to get the word out. Otherwise, I look forward to seeing you again soon. Thanks guys. Take care. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment.
0:14:48.97 --> 0:15:07.98
If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
5 Communication Mistakes You're Making (& What to do instead)
In today's episode, I’m sharing five communication and conflict mistakes that I often see people making in relationships and what you can do instead to bridge a positive connection with your partner.
In today's episode, I’m sharing five communication and conflict mistakes that I often see people making in relationships and what you can do instead to bridge a positive connection with your partner.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Why we shouldn’t avoid the hard conversations
What happens when we suppress our emotions
How to express your desires with your partner
Why we shouldn’t expect our partners to be mind readers
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.41 → 0:01:14.03
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. You welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm going to be sharing five communication and conflict mistakes that I often see people making in relationships and what you can do instead in order to cultivate greater understanding, mutual respect, and ultimately to be able to have conflict in a way that feels not only not scary, but actually positive, actually a bridge to connection and an effective way to cultivate greater understanding of one another and feel more connected rather than feeling like conflict. Is a one way ticket to really painful ruptures and disconnection and misunderstanding, which I think is certainly the case, or at least the starting point for a lot of us.
0:01:14.15 → 0:02:05.20
So I'm going to be sharing, as I said, some of the things that I think a lot of us do, and this will not exclusively be true for people who tend towards insecure attachment patterns. I think even if you are broadly secure in your attachment, you might have had less than ideal modelling around communication and conflict in your family system. But more often than not, I think that people who are either anxious or avoidant in their attachment strategies tend to be somewhat conflict averse and that can lead to a starting point of being really self protective when it comes to conflict. And so as soon as we're in that self protective mode straight off the bat, then obviously our strategies are going to be infused with that energy of self protection and it's really hard to connect from that place. So I am going to be talking about all of that and more.
0:02:05.25 → 0:02:29.84
Before I do, I just wanted to share the featured review for today, which is thanks for all you do, Stephanie. I've recommended On Attachment to all of my friends. This podcast has helped me own responsibility for my attachment style and actions while helping me bring compassion and understanding. It's been incredibly grounding to hear about the thousands of people just like me that Stephanie's helped. This podcast has made me feel less alone at a time when I felt so trapped in old thought patterns and anxieties.
0:02:29.95 → 0:02:58.22
Thank you, Stephanie, for your honesty, kindness and hopefulness. For the first time, I'm starting to feel like a healthy relationship is a possibility for me. Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I'm so glad that that's been your experience and I couldn't agree more that the experience of feeling like we are not alone and that reassurance of realising that other people are going through a very similar thing to us makes us feel so much more optimistic about there being a path forward. So I'm glad that you found that in the podcast.
0:02:58.36 → 0:03:40.75
If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around communication, mistakes that you might be making in your relationship and what to do instead. Now, this will apply somewhat to non romantic relationships, although, as always, this being a relationship focused podcast, I will frame it in that way. But just a note, if you're not currently in a relationship, there are certainly principles here that you can apply to non romantic relationships, whether that's with family, friends or colleagues or anyone else. So the first tip I want to give you here is don't avoid the hard conversations.
0:03:40.91 → 0:04:42.24
As I said in the introduction, I think that a lot of us, particularly if you are either more anxious or more avoidant, have a level of conflict aversion. And we can really avoid those hard conversations until we're at a boiling point, until the conversations sort of force themselves on us because we've put ourselves through so much stress by trying to avoid it or sidestep it or bypass it or tiptoe around it, and it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger inside us until it all comes out. So I think that if you are someone who really does struggle to have hard conversations, this is a really important thing to reprogram in yourself and it is a skill that we can learn. I think it can be a really vicious downward spiral. Because if you haven't got a lot of experience in having hard conversations in a safe and healthy way, then every time you do have these big conversations, if you're not having them in a way that sets you up.
0:04:42.26 → 0:05:09.60
For success. Then you're probably going to have these big, awful fights or attack, defend, or you say something, but you say it in a bit of a demanding way and then someone shuts down. And what does that do? That reinforces to your system hard conversations are unsafe, they threaten the relationship, they lead to people abandoning me or attacking me or whatever other story you might have. That might not just be a made up story, it might be based on your experience.
0:05:10.05 → 0:06:04.38
But I think it's really important, if that's the case, to recognise, okay, how am I contributing to the perpetuation of that experience and of that story that I have? So, noticing that as much as avoiding the hard conversations feels like it's something that we're doing from a place of keeping ourselves safe, if we think that the hard conversations are not safe, then of course we're going to want to avoid them. But it really costs us a lot because, as I've said before, usually when we try and avoid those conversations, this is more for my anxious folk, we suppress our needs, we suppress our concerns, but it's like the less we talk about them, the more we think about them. I've said this to my partner before that if we're not talking about something that we both know is going on and it feels like an elephant in the room, it's deafeningly loud to me inside. And the more that we avoid it, the louder it is for me.
0:06:04.43 → 0:06:47.22
It takes up so much space inside of me to avoid it. And so if that's true for you as well, just consider, am I really achieving anything by trying to avoid these conversations? Because if you're anything like me, it probably just comes out in a more distressed and escalated way somewhere down the track as a result of trying to suppress it. So one of the best things that you can do, and if you take nothing else away from today's episode than this, please learn to have the hard conversations and trust that the earlier you have them, the less hard they will be. And the more often that you have them, the less hard they will be, because they just don't come with the same energy of pent up, stressed, overwhelmed.
0:06:47.33 → 0:07:46.16
I've spent three weeks building up the stories around this and making a lot of meaning and interpreting everything you say and do and don't say and don't do through the lens of this story. I've been telling myself the more we can fast track that and nip it in the bud, have the conversations when something first arises, we're much better off because we're going to be able to cheque those stories, connect, get our needs met, share what's bothering us and just air the grievances or whatever else is on our heart and on our mind that it's pretty rare, that just avoiding something and letting it grow and fester is the path forward. So that's the first mistake. Try not to keep avoiding the hard conversations. As I've said many times before, whatever scary truth you think might be revealed in the conversations you're avoiding, if it already exists in your relationship, it already exists in your relationship, the conversation is just the thing that's going to reveal it, right?
0:07:46.21 → 0:08:25.88
So I think we have to be courageous and have those conversations and trust that we will be all the stronger for it. Okay, the next communication and conflict mistake that I see a lot and again have experienced myself, as with most of the things I talk about on this podcast, is fighting about fighting. So what do I mean by this? Have you ever been in an argument with someone and it starts as an argument about a situation or a set of circumstances or what you're feeling or needing or whatever it might be, but very soon you start fighting about the way you're fighting. So it's things like, are you going to say something?
0:08:25.98 → 0:08:50.86
Or I can't believe you're just sitting there, or Why are you ignoring me? Or don't speak to me like that. Or whatever it is but it becomes less about substance and more about form. So we start attacking each other on the way that we are talking rather than actually engaging with the substance of what we were meaning to talk about, what was bothering us. And it should be obvious that this is completely ineffective.
0:08:50.97 → 0:09:38.81
When you notice that happening, then just know that the horse is bolted, the conversation is a dead end and you are much better off to just take a break, take a time out, call it for what it is, say look, we're clearly not getting anywhere, let's regroup in an hour, or whatever it might be. But don't just keep following that rabbit hole of attacking and defending not even the substance of what was bothering you, but actually just fighting about the way that you are fighting. This is just so common. And if it's not something you've been aware of prior to now, I promise you, now you'll notice it and you'll realise just how common it is to nitpick at each other about the way that we are communicating. And really when we're doing that, as always, we can go, okay, what's behind my complaint or my criticism?
0:09:38.99 → 0:10:07.91
What's the unmet need? And if you're getting angry at someone for not saying something as quickly as you would like, or for getting defensive or whatever it might be, it's like what do I actually need here? And try and voice that say I know that you're just processing, but it's really hard for me when you go quiet for ten minutes or whatever it might be. Right? But share the vulnerability that is within you rather than armoring up and attacking because that will almost always make it worse.
0:10:08.04 → 0:10:45.75
So that leads me nicely into my third communication mistake, which is criticising rather than voicing desires. So a really, really helpful and easy rule of thumb is instead of criticising your partner, express what the desire is underneath your criticism or your complaint. So if you're frequently criticising your partner for whatever it might be, you never are affectionate with me, or you're always on your phone or you never let me know when you're running late or whatever. Right? Think of all of the things that we can be critical about, whether we voice them or not.
0:10:45.95 → 0:11:21.01
But with a little bit of interrogation and really not much, because oftentimes the desires sit pretty close to the surface, with a little bit of interrogation, you'll see that there is a desire underneath that. So as I said, we tend to armour up and lead with our sword. We attack someone because that feels less vulnerable than sharing. When you're on your phone, when I'm talking to you, I feel really unimportant to you and that scares me. It scares me to not feel like you care about what I have to say, even if it's just telling you boring stuff about my day.
0:11:21.05 → 0:11:48.92
It would mean so much to me to have that time protected and connected for us to sit together without our phones, is that something that you'd be open to doing? Can you see how that is so much more likely to be received in a way that invites engagement and reflection and response rather than telling someone, why do I even bother being in a relationship with you? Because you're always on your phone. I may as well just live here by myself. That's how disengaged you are, right?
0:11:49.02 → 0:12:25.06
When we go with that, it's like, yeah, I'm keeping myself safe somehow by leading with that level of aggression and attack. And it's not to excuse or explain away someone's behaviour that you might be unhappy with, but it is to take responsibility for the ways in which our response to that behaviour might be entrenching us in painful dynamics rather than forging a path out of those dynamics and towards greater connection. So think about it. What is the desire underneath my complaint or my criticism? And can I be brave enough to show my heart and voice that?
0:12:25.24 → 0:13:05.69
And even if my partner can't meet me in it or doesn't meet me in it, I am still so much better off sharing that honesty and that vulnerability from a place of integrity and open heartedness than if I join them in some sort of negativity and criticism and whatever else might be the dynamic of the relationship. You don't win by joining them in the trenches in that. So take the high road without being high and mighty about it and voice the desires that sit underneath your criticisms and see what happens. You might be surprised. Okay, the next communication and conflict mistake that I see a lot is schoolkeeping and kitchen sinking.
0:13:05.79 → 0:13:23.90
So what do these terms mean? Schoolkeeping should be obvious enough. It's when we go, well, why should I have to do this when you haven't done that? We can do this in lots of different settings. Maybe it'll be I've called you the last three times that we've met up for a date and you haven't called me since.
0:13:23.95 → 0:14:41.04
This time we're really keeping tally on inputs to the relationship, on effort, on who does what and when and all of that. And really, apart from the fact that that's exhausting to be in that mode of scrutinising and score keeping our relationship, it really is just an indicator that we feel a sense of imbalance and maybe we don't feel valued for our contribution and so we feel the need to keep jumping up and down and making a point of it. I think, relatedly, we can sort of gatekeep our love from this place. We can become very protective and feel like to the extent that there's an imbalance in contributions or in inputs, we don't want to be loving because we don't want to skew it further and feel like we're going to send that imbalance to further extremes. So if we do feel like we are the one who usually initiates contact or plans dates or does more stuff around the house, whatever it might be, we start getting really defensive of our contribution and contributing less or becoming very resentful about it because we are so acutely aware of this perceived imbalance and all
0:14:41.06 → 0:14:43.30
of the stories that come with it.
0:14:43.35 → 0:15:29.31
So we usually are doing a lot of meaning making when we're in this score keeping mindset, we're making it mean that someone doesn't care about us or that they're entitled or that they take us for granted or that they're lazy or they don't respect us, right? There's a lot of pretty significant stories that come with that that can be really harmful. So when you notice that score keeping mindset in your relationship, the first thing that you should be doing is getting really curious around what's going on with you. What are the unmet needs that are leading me to use this strategy of scorekeeping? Whether it's just me huffing and puffing and internally scorekeeping and harbouring that resentment or whether I'm waving that in front of my partner and trying to get them to see what is the underlying need.
0:15:29.48 → 0:16:08.62
And can I ask that? Can I be really clear around my communication rather than just spinning around in the resentment and the kind of victim mindset? Because I think a lot of us can go there when we feel hurt or unsupported but again, it usually doesn't help us to get what we really desire. The other part to this one that I mentioned was kitchen sinking. So this is not exactly related but it's this tendency to raise one issue and then raise 234-5678 other issues when we have a conversation with our partner.
0:16:08.68 → 0:17:14.99
So we might start a conversation about one thing and then our partner might get defensive and then we might pile on another one and another one and another one. So it's you didn't take the rubbish out last night and you didn't do this and you didn't do that and you were late home last Tuesday and you never even put in effort anymore and I can't remember the last time you cooked dinner for me and right. Again, this is kind of the flip side of the suppression of our needs is that we say nothing and then when we finally get the opportunity, it's like we finally have our moment. We have the microphone, we have centre stage and we just come at someone with this barrage of things that we've been suppressing and tell them all of the ways, seemingly unrelated, that they have been inadequate or that they've been messing up or that they've missed the mark or not meeting our needs or expectations. And I think this is particularly common among anxiously attached people.
0:17:15.08 → 0:17:52.54
Again, never any judgement when I call this out because I am guilty of it. But it's this thing of I've been suppressing my needs because I don't want to be too needy, too burdensome. I don't want to be a nag, I don't want to be critical, but I still have all of these grievances that I'm very aware of. And so when I finally get the opportunity, if we're having an argument or I do feel like that window is there for me to say these things, I can feel a sense of scarcity around it. I don't want to keep it to one issue because what if I don't get another opportunity for another month or something to share all of these other things that have been bothering me?
0:17:52.56 → 0:18:54.05
So I just have to ram them all in there now and let you know all of the things that you've been doing wrong. Now that I have this opportunity and now that I have your attention and I feel like this is my moment, needless to say that this is not a very effective strategy, particularly if you have a more avoidant partner, they're going to feel really very quickly overwhelmed and demoralised by that kind of communication style. This sense of you're just hitting me with a tidal wave, of all of the ways in which I am inadequate and all of the ways in which I am failing you as a partner because you are so unhappy with me. Now, you might see it differently, but that is, I guarantee you, how they will see it and experience it and we can kind of understand that if we can step outside of our own stuff and look at that situation a little more objectively. Just being hit with this long list of complaints about all the ways in which you aren't stacking up or you aren't fulfilling your partner's needs, can feel really attacking and in.
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Most people will trigger defensiveness. So as much as possible, try to keep your conversations to one issue rather than leading with this long list of things and capitalising on the opportunity and trying to air every single grievance and resolve every single issue and just keep the conversation going for hours and hours because you feel like that is your one window of opportunity. The fifth and final communication mistake that I wanted to share is stop expecting your partner to read your mind. Now, I know that this is not romantic. I know that we all wish that our partner was a mind reader and that we wouldn't have to tell them what we need and tell them how we would like our needs to be met and tell them how we're feeling and tell them what might be bothering us or whatever other thing might be on your mind.
0:19:45.83 → 0:20:39.17
And feeling heavy and taking up a lot of space. But the more we have that expectation, which is just not realistic, the more we then again make meaning out of the fact that our partner hasn't been able to read our mind and we get really upset and we probably start engaging in some of those protest behaviours to indirectly get their attention. Maybe we get a bit quiet and withdrawn or sulky or short tempered and try and elicit that what's wrong? Kind of response in our partner so that we then get the space to share because we don't feel comfortable expressing it. So I know that this can be really hard and I know that, as I said, in an ideal world, our partners would be mind readers and we would never have to step into the vulnerability of sharing and asking for things and being direct and being open because it is vulnerable, right?
0:20:39.21 → 0:21:22.11
It opens us up to rejection. It opens us up to the possibility that our partner cannot or doesn't want to be there or support us or meet our needs or that they just might not respond in the exact way that we would like them to. It's vulnerable, it's edgy, it's scary, but it's also just part and parcel of being in a healthy relationship is being direct and being communicative. And the more that we play these games of pretending to be low maintenance or not asking for things or shapeshifting or trying to not have needs, I mean, you tell me, how is that working out for you? Because I know that when I've tried that, it hasn't worked terribly well.
0:21:22.28 → 0:21:51.16
It just leads me to feel more anxious and stressed. And as I said earlier, the less you talk about it, the more you think about it. And it just takes up a lot of space and really occupies a lot of real estate in your mind and in your emotional body. It's a heavy burden to carry. So as much as it's not the most romantic or sexy thing in the world to have to spell it out for our partners, try and believe that they care and that they really want to be able to support you.
0:21:51.18 → 0:22:40.07
But you might just have to be a little more of an active participant in that process, rather than expecting it all to happen magically. Okay, so that was five communication and conflict mistakes. I hope that that has been interesting and helpful for you. As I said, I know a lot of people really struggle with this and it's a very commonly requested podcast topic to do stuff around conflict, so I might have to do some more on this again soon. But I hope that that's given you at least a starting point of things to think about, of ways that we can go wrong and what you can do instead to create conflict that's not only not excruciatingly painful and stressful, but actually helps you to feel more connected and really understand each other's needs and feel closer as a result.
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Because it is possible. As much as that might feel totally alien to you if it's not been your experience, I guarantee you it is possible and it's a skill that you can learn. As always, if you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a five star review, a rating. You can leave a little comment on Spotify underneath the episode, share it with the people in your life. All of those good things really help so much in getting the word out, but otherwise, I look forward to seeing you again soon.
0:23:06.74 → 0:23:27.93
Thanks guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much.
0:23:28.05 → 0:23:30.62
Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
5 Tips for a Healthy, Balanced Nervous System
In today's episode, we're talking all about nervous system regulation in the context of emotional wellbeing. As many of you know, I'm a big advocate of incorporating bottom-up, somatically focused tools and awareness as part of the bigger picture of growth and healing. And a key piece of that work is understanding how to understand and support your nervous system.
In today's episode, we're talking all about nervous system regulation in the context of emotional wellbeing.
As many of you know, I'm a big advocate of incorporating bottom-up, somatically focused tools and awareness as part of the bigger picture of growth and healing. And a key piece of that work is understanding how to understand and support your nervous system.
WHAT WE COVER:
why a healthy nervous system isn't about being calm all the time
how to expand your comfort zone and resilience in a safe, sustainable way
how to make a daily practice out of nervous system regulation
how to counteract feeling powerless and overwhelmed
building a toolkit for nervous system regulation and self-soothing
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
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You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here.
0:00:28.49 → 0:01:13.34
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm going to be sharing five principles or tips for a healthy nervous system. So if you've been listening to the show for a while, if you've done any of my courses or you've been in my world, you'll know that I wax lyrical about the importance of understanding your nervous system and building a level of fluency and literacy with regards to your nervous system and the way that it shapes your experience of life. And that might seem like a big statement, but it really is so pervasive in the way that it influences our thoughts, feelings, emotions, energy, everything.
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It is so foundational. And as I've said many times before, and I will say again and again, it is so often the missing piece that prevents people from making lasting and meaningful change in their lives. You may have listened to a recent episode that I did with Sarah Baldwin on Understanding Your Nervous System. And if you haven't listened to that episode and or you are interested in learning more of a 101 about the different states of the nervous system, I really encourage you to go back and listen to that, either before or after listening to this, as it'll give you some really useful context and background. So in this episode, I'm going to be giving you some principles and some tools.
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Ways to think about nervous system regulation and ways to weave that into your day to day life so that it becomes just part of what you think about when you reflect on how you're feeling and what you need and all of those pillars of self care making nervous system regulation. One of those is really, really supportive and will really upgrade the way that you experience your life. Again, I know that sounds like a big statement, but I wholeheartedly stand behind it. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements.
0:02:30.40 → 0:03:09.53
You will have heard me speak about my Homecoming Mastermind, which is my six month small group programme. It is the most intimate way to work with me. I've had quite a number of people inquiring recently, about one on one coaching and unfortunately I'm not accepting new one on one clients for the foreseeable future. I'm trying to manage my capacity with a lot of other projects that I've got going on. This podcast plans to write a book, lots of other exciting things, but it does just mean that I'm somewhat capacity constrained and my Mastermind is a beautiful way for me to work really closely with people in a small group setting.
0:03:09.63 → 0:03:48.03
In a way that allows for a level of intimacy akin to one to one coaching over the long term. So I really do get to know you and everything that you are experiencing and struggling with and give you that one to one support, but in a small group setting over a six month period. So if you are interested in working with me and you're ready to really invest in that longer term high level support, definitely go and cheque out all of the details and the link to apply, which is in the show notes. Okay, the second quick announcement is just to share the featured review, which is my eyes are open. The on attachment podcast is fantastic.
0:03:48.11 → 0:04:09.06
I had some understanding of attachment styles, but I wanted to find out more about myself, my partner and friends and family. I'm definitely anxiously attached and have realised that after a few moments of conflict, my partner is an avoidantly attached person and I am hoping to work on myself. I'm on the weightless field programme. I really want my relationship to work and your information, tips and guidance is really giving me lots to work with. Thank you.
0:04:09.08 → 0:04:34.50
Stephanie, thank you so much for that review. I'm so glad that you are finding the show to be a supportive resource in understanding yourself and your partner better. That's always great to hear. If that was your review, you can send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into these five principles for a healthy nervous system.
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So, the first one that I really want to get out of the way and emphasise is having a healthy nervous system is not about being calm or relaxed all the time. I think that this is a misconception that we can have that once you reach some place of having a regulated nervous system or being really grounded and having that capacity, that you're just going to be like a Zen Buddhist monk all the time. That is really not the case. I think that a huge part of understanding our nervous system is understanding how beautifully fit for purpose it is in keeping us safe from threats, from danger in the world around us. That is what it's there to do.
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So a healthy nervous system is not one that is just always at ease. A healthy nervous system is one that is flexible and adaptable and responds appropriately to the world around us. So that might mean sometimes mobilising you into a sympathetic nervous system response into fight or flight mode. That is not something that we need to solve for, it's just something that we need to channel intentionally. So the problem is not that sometimes you feel stressed and sometimes you go into a stress response that is exactly as it should be.
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It's just wanting to make sure that it matches the circumstances that we're facing. Where we really struggle and where we can get into unhealthy patterns is where we're responding as if we're being chased by a lion all day, every day and we are living with a level of chronic arousal or chronic stress or alternatively, chronic shutdown if we're in more of a dorsal vagal state. Again, if these terms are totally unfamiliar to you, definitely go and cheque out my episode with Sarah Baldwin a few weeks back. So just reiterating, it is not about being calm all the time. It is not about always being in regulation.
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It is about understanding where your nervous system is at, getting curious about that, and then having the tools to move between states in a way that is adaptive and appropriate to the circumstances in which we find ourselves in our lives. Okay, so the next principle that I want to share with you on building a healthy nervous system is that we want to step towards discomfort incrementally. So a lot of more old school approaches to healing or to personal growth would have you kind of throw yourself in the deep end to really go to extremes of discomfort as a way to kind of shock your system into whatever effect you're looking for. But most trauma informed nervous system focused lenses or approaches to growth and healing would adopt a paradigm or a framework of taking steps that are uncomfortable but safe. So taking a more incremental approach to change or growth that is not within our comfort zone.
0:07:36.20 → 0:08:04.15
So it is stretching the edges of what is comfortable and familiar to us while also doing that in a way that isn't going to trigger a really strong protective response from your system. So to break that down a little bit, if we do something that is so far outside of what is known and familiar and comfortable to us, then our system is going to launch into a protective response. Again. That's not a problem, right? That's just your body keeping you safe.
0:08:04.49 → 0:08:33.61
That's what it does all the time and that's what it's designed to do. So the problem is, sometimes when we go to extremes of discomfort that are so far outside of what is familiar to us, we can actually trigger a really strong, kind of snapback response, almost like getting a rubber band and just pulling it apart too quickly. And then it's going to pull back in a very pronounced way and very quickly. Right. It's going to snap back.
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So rather than doing that and pushing it to too much of an extreme where it's either going to snap or have an elastic response back, we want to stretch it slowly. So can I take a step that is uncomfortable but safe rather than uncomfortable and unsafe? So what does this look like in Practise? So an example might be if you're someone who really struggles with setting boundaries in relationships and you struggle with that in romantic relationships. You struggle with setting boundaries with a parent at work.
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All of these different settings feel really vulnerable for you to set boundaries and you have a lot of fear and self protection around that. Setting a boundary with a family member, so say setting a boundary with your mother might feel like the top rung of the ladder and so we're not going to go straight to that, right? That's not going to be safe for your system. It's going to be uncomfortable and unsafe in all likelihood because it's just too much too soon. So can we find a way that you could set a boundary in a much more low stakes, contained environment so that you can teach your system through show rather than tell that it is safe to do that?
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Okay, just 1% or 2% outside your comfort zone and we want to clock those easy wins so that your system will go, okay, I can do that. That was uncomfortable but I survived. I didn't die. The worst didn't happen. So we want to kind of run these controlled experiments to build up this body of evidence that we are able to do something that is uncomfortable rather than taking the risk and doing something that we really can't control.
0:10:12.13 → 0:11:04.25
So really putting yourself out there in a relational context, whether that's romantic or familial somewhere that feels intensely high stakes and where you might get a response that confirms all of your worst fears and cements that as being something dangerous and unsafe. So we want to take steps towards discomfort, incrementally. So recognising that we do want to build our capacity by getting uncomfortable. Recognising that what our nervous system wants us to do will always be biassed towards what is perceived to be safe, which is what's going to be familiar and known but that's not necessarily in alignment with what we want for our lives. So always balancing this strong bias towards the familiar with wanting to experience things that are uncomfortable but ultimately safe.
0:11:04.33 → 0:11:52.14
Okay, the next principle that I want to share with you is to treat your nervous system as a daily self care practise. Now I know that people can have a bit of an eye roll around self care and think that it's all about kind of bubble baths and lighting incense. That's not really what we're talking about here. It's more that can I cultivate a daily or even moment to moment awareness of what is going on in my nervous system and can I be attuned to and responsive to that as part of building up a really strong and nourishing relationship with myself? Okay, so the reason that we want to do this is a because it's so pervasive that it is affecting you on a moment to moment basis whether you like it or not.
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So you might as well be aware of it and be working with it rather than ignoring it or totally shut off from it. But also that it's going to be much easier to build up a baseline level of regulation to build up your capacity, to build your window of tolerance. It's going to be much easier to do that with a framework of daily care and maintenance rather than a reactive approach of firefighting or constantly feeling like we need to down regulate when we're in a stress response. So I always get asked by people, how do I regulate when I'm triggered? How do I regulate when I'm in conflict?
0:12:31.23 → 0:13:05.61
How do I regulate when I'm freaking out and panicking? And of course that is something that we want to know how to do and there are plenty of tools for that. But we don't want to always be waiting for that, right? We don't want to let ourselves get to this peak stress response all the time and then have to go in as a firefighter and try and put out the flames. Ideally, we'd be catching ourselves as we start to notice activational stress and finding ways to really give ourselves that day to day care and maintenance.
0:13:05.79 → 0:13:47.65
It's like any other aspect of health, right? We would much rather take a preventative approach and weave in these daily practises of overall well being rather than having to go to the emergency room all the time to fix things once they're broken or once they're in a really acute state of stress or ill health. So the next principle I want to share with you for cultivating a healthy nervous system is to remind yourself and emphasise that you have choice always. Okay, so what do I mean by this? Our nervous systems love choice and they really don't like feeling like they don't have choice, like we don't have choice.
0:13:47.81 → 0:14:19.07
So this is why whenever you feel trapped or cornered or powerless, you are going to experience a big fear response in your body. And again, that makes sense, right? Of course we would. If we are as animals feeling like we're cornered and panicked and we don't have any choice and we're running out of options, we're going to go into a really fearful, stressed state. The trouble is that oftentimes we have that perception when it's not true.
0:14:19.14 → 0:14:59.91
And that might be a legacy of an earlier time in our lives when we didn't have choice or when we didn't feel like we had choice. Maybe as children that's for many of us we will have memories of being a child, whether they're conscious memories or more implicit memories of being a child and having certain fears. And we didn't have many options on how to deal with those fears at the time. And that experience of having no choice, of having no options, of being powerless can linger in our bodies and in our nervous systems into adulthood. And so we can respond to situations as if we don't have choice, when really we do.
0:15:00.00 → 0:15:46.53
So in building up your nervous system capacity, it's so important always to remind yourself right here, right now, I have choices, I have options. I might not have all the choices in the world, I might not be able to always do my most preferred thing, but I have choices and I have agency and I have options available to me. And so reminding ourselves of that and certainly as part of this, not wanting to perpetuate anything around self blame of shaming, forcing ourselves of criticising ourselves, of making ourselves do things in a really punitive way. Now, as a little side note, that is not to say that we can't have self discipline. If you know me and my work, I'm all about self discipline.
0:15:46.58 → 0:16:05.83
But to me that is something that we gift ourselves rather than something we punish ourselves with. So reminding ourselves we have choice, I have choice, I have options. I don't need to force myself to do anything. I don't need to force myself to go to a party that I don't want to go to. As soon as you feel forced, you are going to feel stressed and anxious.
0:16:05.93 → 0:16:56.03
So reminding yourself that you have choices, you have options, you have agency. Of course those choices may have consequences, but you also get to choose what path you take. And just offering that reminder to your nervous system in itself will create a lot of ease and space in your system where otherwise there might have been a sense of panic or feeling trapped or feeling powerless and the stress that comes with that. Okay, the last principle for a healthy nervous system, the last tip is build out a toolkit of resources for different states of your nervous system for different contexts, different environments, different emotional experiences, different triggers. Build up the toolkit so that you have before you this full banquet of options that you can draw from at any given moment based on what you need.
0:16:56.10 → 0:17:31.24
Now, this one could be a whole episode in and of itself. It could probably be several episodes in and of itself. This is something that I teach in healing, anxious attachment and it's consistently the thing that people walk away going, wow, this really changes everything because I feel so much more empowered to soothe myself through those moments. So rather than just panicking and clutching at other people, needing something from someone in order to feel okay, we can go, oh, okay, I'm feeling really activated. I have a lot of sympathetic charge in my nervous system.
0:17:31.29 → 0:18:00.71
I have a lot of anxious activated energy. What do I need? And having five to ten options of things that you can go, okay, I know that when I'm anxious, these things help. So maybe that's going for a walk, maybe that's getting sunshine, maybe that's going to the gym and getting a good workout in, maybe it's some sort of movement dancing or shaking or beating your chest or doing any sort of thing that allows you to process some of that mobilisation energy. All of those are great options to have.
0:18:00.78 → 0:18:47.34
And the more that you can put together a list that makes sense for you and your life and your preferences and your body and the way that your system works, the more you have that at hand to draw. From whether you are at work and you feel stressed or you're on a date or you're at home and you haven't heard from someone and you're starting to panic, you can go, okay, what do I need in this moment? What's the thing that works? Because your ability to think of a solution when you're in that state might be hampered by the fact that you're in a stress response. So having kind of done the legwork prior and already figured out what works for you, then all you have to do is execute on the thing that you've already planned for and that is really, really helpful and really, really supportive.
0:18:47.40 → 0:19:09.52
So building up a toolkit for when I'm in a stress response and I'm feeling really anxious or when I'm in more of a dorsal response and I feel totally flat, unmotivated, hopeless. I feel like I can't even respond to an email. I'm so completely devoid of energy, I'm not even here in my body. What do I need when I'm in that state? Maybe I need to have a nap.
0:19:09.55 → 0:19:22.73
Maybe I need a hot water bottle. Maybe I need to lie with my dog. Maybe I need to go for a short walk. All of these different things that we can just look at and go, okay, what do I need? What might help me right now?
0:19:22.77 → 0:20:19.38
Maybe a warm cup of tea. But just having those things to hand rather than trying to come up with a solution in the moment is going to be so, so supportive for you in building that healthy nervous system. And of course, as I said in the third point, we don't want to just be doing these as reactive or kind of firefighting practises when we're already dysregulated. We also want to have a toolkit for what we do every single day to consistently be banking some money or filling up the tank in a way that feels really nourishing and restorative rather than running the tank dry and then having to do some sort of emergency response. So all of the things that help you on a day to day basis to feel grounded and supported and safe and connected and creative and loved and all of those beautiful things that contribute to our overall well being and that are so grounded in our nervous system.
0:20:20.71 → 0:20:48.67
Okay, so I hope that that's been helpful. To quickly recap those five principles were healthy nervous system is not about being calm all the time. It's about being able to move between states and feeling like we are kind of in control of that system. The second principle was to take steps that are uncomfortable but ultimately safe. So we want to incrementally stretch out our comfort zone rather than going to extremes and then having a big protective response.
0:20:48.85 → 0:21:30.58
We want to treat our nervous system regulation as a daily practise of care and maintenance, rather than running the tank dry and having to go into emergency mode. We always want to emphasise choice and remind ourselves that we have options and we have agency and we want to build up a toolkit for all of our different states, for different contexts, for different emotions, for different triggers. So that we feel equipped with a plan and we really feel empowered to, again, be kind of in the driver's seat of our experience rather than feeling like these things are happening to us and we don't have any control over it. So that was five principles for a healthy nervous system. I really hope you enjoyed this episode.
0:21:30.64 → 0:21:56.99
As always, I am eternally grateful for those of you who leave reviews, who leave ratings. As I mentioned last week, you can now leave little comments on Spotify for specific episodes. So if you're listening to this on Spotify and you want to give me some feedback for a given episode, then please do that. Underneath the episode description, it should be relatively easy to find otherwise. Thank you so much for joining me and I look forward to seeing you again later in the week.
0:21:57.06 → 0:22:18.69
Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much.
0:22:18.81 → 0:22:21.38
Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
How to Talk About Sex with Vanessa & Xander Marin
In today's episode, I'm joined by Vanessa & Xander Marin. She’s a sex therapist with 20 years of experience, he’s a regular dude, and they recently co-authored their first book Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life, which became an instant NYT bestseller.
In today's episode, I'm joined by Vanessa & Xander Marin. She’s a sex therapist with 20 years of experience, he’s a regular dude, and they recently co-authored their first book Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life, which became an instant NYT bestseller.
WHAT WE COVER:
the five conversations you need to be having about sex
navigating mismatched libido & (perceived) sexual rejection in relationships
how emotional intimacy (or lack thereof) impacts sexual intimacy
what to do when sex becomes a heavy, high-pressure topic in your relationship
how to bring back fun, play & lightness to your sex life
Follow Vanessa & Xander on Instagram @vanessaandxander, and tune in to their podcast, Pillow Talks, for totally do-able sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more.
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.41 → 0:00:37.34
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge, and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm joined by Vanessa and Xander Marin, and we are here to talk all about sex.
0:00:37.53 → 0:00:49.49
So, Vanessa and Xander, welcome. It is great to have you. Thanks for having us. Yeah, we're excited to be here. So you guys have just recently released a book, Sex Talks, which is an instant New York Times bestseller.
0:00:49.54 → 0:01:24.24
Congratulations. Thank you. Super exciting. And I think today we can go into a lot of that what you guys cover in the book and more broadly, conversations around sex and where we can get stuck sexually, why we can get stuck sexually and what we can do to sort of take matters back into our own hands and not feel like sex is this big, scary thing that sits outside of our control and that then feeds all of this shame and stigma and aloneness. Because I think it can feel pretty lonely when we're in that place.
0:01:24.34 → 0:01:45.24
Absolutely. I'd love to hear from you. Just to start off, why do you think it is that we can struggle so much to talk about sex? And I think sometimes it feels like it's harder to talk about our partner, the person that we love and care about and know most deeply. It's actually harder to talk to them about sex than maybe someone that you just met.
0:01:45.34 → 0:02:27.29
I think it's hard for us to talk about sex because we really don't have any examples. I mean, if you think about every sex scene that you see in the movies, on TV, you never see characters talking to each other about the sex that they're having or not having with each other. And when we see that exact same sort of scene repeated over and over again throughout our lifetimes, of course we're going to internalise this belief that we shouldn't have to talk about it. It's supposed to just unfold naturally and effortlessly. So when we get into our own sex lives and there are things that we want to communicate with, we struggle because we just have this feeling that we're not supposed to have to.
0:02:27.44 → 0:02:54.81
And furthermore, if you think back, do you have any good examples of having non awkward conversations about sex in your life? For most of us, our very first example or first conversation we ever had about sex was the talk with our parents. And usually that doesn't go particularly well. You can pick up on the fact that your parents feel super awkward about this topic. It feels embarrassing, it feels shameful.
0:02:54.86 → 0:03:21.59
Or maybe they don't even have the conversation with you because they're too embarrassed to even bring it up. And as kids, we pick up on stuff like that. And so our first experiences tend to be, oh, this is a topic that we tend to avoid. Sex is obviously important. It's something that we all want to do, but we don't have that experience of talking about it, so we just try to figure out how to do it without actually communicating about it.
0:03:21.76 → 0:04:10.95
Yeah, totally. I think that, as you say, if we just don't have the reference point for what that looks like, then not only are we kind of fumbling around, so to speak, but we also have the expectation that we shouldn't have to. I know you guys talk a lot about sexual perfectionism and this expectation of, like, I should just know how to do this. And to the extent that I don't, then there must be something wrong with me because all I'm seeing is these examples, whether it's in movies or porn, which I think for most people is like, the two areas that we get our sex education, which is pretty woeful. There is this sense of brokenness or wrongness to the extent that our real sex life deviates from that depiction of it.
0:04:10.99 → 0:04:43.87
And I think that both people in the dynamic can be feeling that without talking about it. And no one wants to be the one to raise the fact that there's a problem or to acknowledge that there's work to be done there. And so it can just become this really pressure laden elephant in the room topic that we're tiptoeing around. And one of the big problems there, too, is that most of us will wait to talk about sex until something is really bad in our sex life. There's something that we're really not enjoying.
0:04:43.92 → 0:05:06.22
We're feeling super disconnected. Maybe we're not having sex at all. And so we hit that boiling point, and that's the point where we decide, fine, I've had enough. We have to talk about it. And of course, that's a very scary starting point if that's the first time you're approaching your partner to talk about it, and it only leaves you with the experience of, oh, sex is a scary thing to talk about.
0:05:06.27 → 0:05:20.86
When we have to talk about it, that's a bad sign. Yeah. And then therefore, you want to try to do everything in your power to make your sex life just okay enough so that you never have to have that feeling again. Never have to have that conversation again. Right?
0:05:20.96 → 0:05:47.05
Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think that's such a good point. It's only when it reaches crisis, and I think this is true for a lot of relationship stuff, that it's like the crisis point is the point at which we finally go, okay, there's something to address here. Rather than being proactive about the way we approach it and going, okay, this is something we talk about to enhance it and optimise it, rather than to fix something that's broken.
0:05:47.55 → 0:06:29.91
Because I think as you say once you're reaching that point, you're coming to the conversation with so much charge, so much sensitivity, all of those wounds that we all carry to varying degrees around unworthiness or undesirability. There's a good chance you've been having a lot of conversations in your own head preceding the real one that you have with your partner. So I think you're kind of, like, braced for the impact and the fallout of that. And it can become a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy there in that we both just get really guarded and protective about the way we approach that conversation, which, as you say, reinforces that this is not a safe thing to talk about. That this is not a productive thing to talk about.
0:06:29.98 → 0:06:52.64
We're stuck, there's no way out of this, and downward we spiral. So what do we do with all of that? I mean, I feel like we've gotten to the what do we do very quickly. I mean, obviously you've got this book, Sex Talks, and the premise being that there are these five conversations that can transform the way that you approach to sex. Do you want to share with everyone a bit of a bird's eye view of what the book is all about?
0:06:53.57 → 0:07:14.83
We start in a completely different place. Yeah, we're going to do it totally different from what we just described. So the first conversation of the five conversations, we call it acknowledgment, aka sex, is a thing. We have it. So the idea in this conversation is we want to ease you into talking about sex with your partner.
0:07:14.96 → 0:07:49.97
We want you to get comfortable with sex as a topic of conversation and we're not doing anything else in this conversation, so we're not giving feedback, we're not making complaints, we're not initiating sex. We have nothing, no agenda on the table here. It's literally just getting comfortable talking about sex. So one very practical thing that people can do if they want to get started is take a moment to think about one of your favourite sexual memories with your partner and then share that memory with them. So you can do that face to face.
0:07:50.04 → 0:08:32.48
If you're feeling shy, you can do it over text message instead. But what you're doing here is creating a positive experience around talking about sex, creating a positive foundation for the communication that you're going to continue having and showing yourself and your partner, that we can talk about sex and it can feel calm and playful and fun. Yeah. And I think that that is so important, having those corrective experiences where if we've only ever had that version of it that feels really scary and big and overwhelming, we actually need to show our system that there is another version of that. As much as we can intellectually know that, or rationally, we like, yeah, of course, hypothetically, that could exist.
0:08:32.53 → 0:09:18.06
I think having the low stakes, relaxed, calm version of a conversation about sex that actually feels connective rather than high pressure and high stakes. I can imagine why that is really beneficial. Yeah. And I mean, if you have had a lot of experience in your relationship of many of those high stakes type of conversations, you're going to have to have a number of these kind of agenda free, acknowledgment conversations to build that habit or that baseline of, you know, kind of walking back from where you all the pressure that you used to feel of like, okay, just bringing even bringing up the word sexual memory is making you feel like, oh, God, they're going to think I have an agenda. Yeah.
0:09:18.11 → 0:09:45.78
It's just going to have to be something that you repeat over and over to start breaking down those associations. But the idea is that over time, the acknowledgment conversation can actually just kind of turn into a way of flirting with your partner, of like, oh, acknowledging something about the sex that you just had. Acknowledging sex is a topic of like, this might be something we might want to do later. I can't stop thinking about last night. That was fun.
0:09:45.91 → 0:10:12.94
Yeah. So it definitely can feel like, okay, yeah. At the beginning it's like, this is a new way of thinking about sex and talking about sex and breaking those associations. But long term, a lot of people think, oh, well, we just need to acknowledge it and then we can move on. But it's actually like, this is one of the most foundational conversations because you can keep doing it and it actually just keeps helping you feel more connected, keeps your sex drive up and all those good things.
0:10:12.99 → 0:10:35.94
Yeah, totally. Would you advise people who are in a bit of a rut to start there? Obviously, in an ideal world, we'd be proactive. We'd be doing all of this from day one and laying the foundations for a really healthy, thriving sexual relationship straight out of the gate. But recognising that a lot of people haven't started there and might be in a really disconnected state.
0:10:35.99 → 0:11:12.99
Sexually mismatched, libido, all of those things that we can get into. Is it still best to return to acknowledgment as the starting point and just try and drop all of the other emotional weight and charge that might be living in your sex life? Yes. We wrote sex talks for all kinds of couples, for couples who are in a rut and really struggling, and for couples who feel like our sex life is pretty great, but we want to explore more, go deeper. So we definitely recommend that as the starting point for every couple, there is in that chapter instructions for how to have what we call like a fresh start conversation.
0:11:13.07 → 0:11:42.33
If you have talked about sex a lot in your relationship and it has only ever led to fighting a way to sort of clear the slate with each other and say, okay, you know what? I know we have really struggled to talk about this in the past, but let's wipe the slate clean and let's try to start fresh. Yeah. And I think that even if, say, you're in the midst of a really long dry spell, it's still important to be able to have this type of acknowledgment conversation. And maybe there's a little more to be wrapped into that of.
0:11:42.37 → 0:12:23.24
Like, I'm talking about this because sex is something that's important to me, and it's something that we both want for our relationship, regardless of where we're at right now. Because I think that's a mistake that a lot of people make is they feel like, well, I can't possibly acknowledge or talk about sex unless we are in a really good place with it. Because by acknowledging it, somehow I'm also going to have to acknowledge the fact that we're in the midst of a dry spell. But when you're in the midst of a dry spell, both people are aware of that. You're not fooling anybody by not talking about it.
0:12:23.37 → 0:13:16.71
Yeah. And I think that that can be really hard right when sex has become this thing between you that you don't want to touch and you don't want to talk about, and particularly when it's in that dry spell that's maybe fueled by mismatched libido over kind of a longer term and there's been one person wanting sex and the other not pulling away. The person wanting sex is probably going to be the person raising the conversation because that's how it usually goes. And I think navigating that dynamic of the person who's wanting sex and feeling rejected versus the person who doesn't want sex for whatever reason, that they may know or not know and feeling the pressure and feeling the guilt and the shame. I realise it's a bit of a diversion from the five conversations, but I'm sure it will be something that a lot of people can relate to.
0:13:16.83 → 0:13:48.48
This whole topic of mismatched libido and that dynamic of you do have one person who's feeling rejected and one person who's feeling guilty and broken. How can we talk about that and navigate it in a way that doesn't just feed those sensitivities and wounds on both sides? We start off the book by sharing the story of how we struggled with this in our own relationship in the first couple of years. And it was really challenging for us. I wanted us to talk about sex.
0:13:48.54 → 0:14:26.14
I wanted us to go to therapy and really work on our relationship. And Xander was not at the point where he was ready to. And it was a couple of the most painful months of our relationship of just sitting in that, what do I do? And so we wanted to start off being super vulnerable and sharing that story just to normalise. In relationships, it is so common for couples to be on different timelines and different pages, not only about do we want to be having sex or not how much sex we want to be having, but also are we ready to talk about this?
0:14:26.24 → 0:15:04.35
And so I wanted to just validate the experience of the person who's picking up the book and reading it. You're being very brave and you're going first, and it might be very challenging to feel that resistance from your partner or to feel them not wanting to engage with you. So we share that story and then we give specific tips for helping get your partner engaged in that conversation. And again, I know we've said it before, but trying to build that positive foundation of communication is going to be the best way to get started. Because if you go in hot and heavy and this is what I did in the beginning when we were struggling, why aren't we having sex?
0:15:04.42 → 0:15:25.79
Why don't you want to have sex with me more often? Yeah. And I just felt horrible. I felt horrible about our relationship, I felt horrible about myself, about myself as a man came into it, the sort of gender dynamics and yeah, it was not a fun way to go through that. Fortunately, we muddled through it.
0:15:25.83 → 0:15:52.80
We got some help eventually and I think we've tried to lay it all out in the book. Like, these are the ways that are better not to do it. These are the right ways to do it. Yeah. I also loved in that opening chapter, I mean, I really appreciated your vulnerability because I think it had that exact impact of it's very disarming to people reading it who otherwise feel alone and self conscious in that experience.
0:15:53.41 → 0:16:31.41
I also liked how you contrasted it with the initial chemistry and that kind of fall from grace, where we go, oh, no, what happened? Have we lost something kind of irretrievably? And when we don't really know what happened, then we feel kind of powerless. And again, particularly if there's one person who's wanting it to be like it was and kind of lamenting the loss of that kind of the transition from the honeymoon period into something different, I think that that can be really challenging. I know that in my work, a lot of it is around those anxious, avoidant dynamics.
0:16:31.46 → 0:17:19.19
And what I see time and time again is a lot of sexual intensity and chemistry to begin with. And I think that sometimes that intensity allows us to bypass having conversations because we don't really have to talk about it. It's just like the chemistry carries the whole encounter and then once that chemical haze subsides a bit, we realise that we've never really talked about sex. And other stuff can come up on the more avoidance side of the street, I think it's like, oh, I actually don't know how to be sexual with someone that I love and care about. This feels extremely vulnerable all of a sudden, and so there can be this kind of pulling away sexually and then the anxious person starts to freak out and goes, oh my God, like they're losing interest in me.
0:17:19.39 → 0:17:42.92
What have I done wrong? And so starts to push and escalate and poke and try and get that engagement back, which only causes more pulling away. Is that something that you see as well? And what would you sort of say to people who experience that dynamic, which I know is a lot of people? Yeah, the pursuer distancer, it's a classic dynamic that comes up so much.
0:17:43.02 → 0:18:11.19
If someone pulls away, then we just want to get drawn to them more. So, I mean, there are a bunch of things that you brought up in that one is a normalisation, that initial chemistry. Yes. It feels so good and it feels like this is the sign from the universe that I found my person. The chemistry is so good, but we walk through normalising that that stage chemically can really only last six to twelve months, max.
0:18:11.35 → 0:18:28.83
And then we settle into a different kind of intimacy in the relationship. But I think so many of us feel really afraid when we notice that spark start to fade. We get so scared of, what does this mean? Is this not actually my person? The signs in the universe is wrong.
0:18:28.90 → 0:19:03.56
And that can really activate that pursuer distance or dynamic, where one person might respond to that fear by I want to draw closer to you to make sure that we're going to stay together, and the other person might get avoidant and scared of, oh God, maybe this isn't the right fit. I need to kind of back away a little bit. Yeah. And I think there's so much meaning making on both sides, right. On the pursuer side, it's like I've done something and there tends to be a lot of unworthiness stuff there and a lot of personalization and internalising everything that's going wrong is like, I've done something wrong.
0:19:03.61 → 0:19:20.00
I've done something to cause you to lose attraction to me. And then on the other side it's like, I don't know why I'm not attracted to you, but the more you're coming at me like this, the more I have this urge to push you away and making that mean that there must be something wrong.
0:19:22.21 → 0:20:06.57
There's one chapter in the book where we share communication tips for going into the conversation. And those tips work really well for any kind of conversation, not just talking about sex, but one of them is called cheque your stories with each other. So we all make meaning of everything that our partner says and does, regardless of if it's in the pursuer distance or dynamic or not. But one thing that we've found especially helpful in our relationship is to actually speak those stories out loud and to ask our partner, is this accurate or not? So it's not like an accusation, like, oh, you're doing this because of blah blah blah, but it's an acknowledgement, hey, I'm realising I'm telling a story in my head that actually using that language.
0:20:06.65 → 0:20:23.37
I'm telling a story or I'm making up a story. Yeah. And then you can cheque that story with them. So that way it's not dumping it on them, it's not accusing them of anything. It's acknowledging that you're doing this yourself, but then you're checking it.
0:20:23.54 → 0:20:46.12
So it allows you to air out the fear. Because when we hold those fears inside and we don't share them, they often just feel stronger and stronger, and then that can make the way that we are approaching our partner even more intense. So it allows you to air out the fear, but in a way, like Xander said, it's taking ownership of it. I'm making up this story. This is how I'm putting the things together in my head.
0:20:46.25 → 0:21:02.11
Here's the story. Is that true? So then you're giving your partner the opportunity to say, oh, no, that's not true. That's not at all how I viewed the situation, or what I thought, or what I said, or anything like that. So it gives them the opportunity to correct.
0:21:02.26 → 0:21:47.10
Yeah, I love that. And my partner and I do that pretty much every conversation, every kind of relationship conversation is like, story. I'm telling myself, is this, or there's a part of me that's wanting to say this, or there's a part of me that's getting really angry, or that wants to tell you this. And I think that, as you say, it's like the ownership and kind of the witnessing of ourselves in it and taking that responsibility rather than just spewing it out on our partner and treating it as fact, which there's a lot of temptation to do that, I think, again, particularly around sex, which just feels so tender and vulnerable to just go into a really protective mode without even realising it. Just saying, Why don't you want this?
0:21:47.15 → 0:22:15.84
Or what's wrong with you? Any of that kind of language is just put someone in their own protective state and on the defensive, very reliably, and it's just not a productive starting point. And also using words like, there's a part of me, or, this is the story that I'm making up, it also makes you turn inward and figure out what is it that I'm feeling? What is it that I'm telling myself? It's so easy for us to focus on our partners.
0:22:15.90 → 0:22:37.37
You did this. You said that you feel this. You made me feel that. But that, of course, like you were just saying, only puts your partner on the defensive. None of us like being told what we think or feel, but it also completely cuts you out of the equation if you're just focusing so much on your partner's words and feelings and actions and all of that.
0:22:37.41 → 0:23:04.55
So if you turn that focus inward and say, okay, what is it that's actually here for me? What is it that's actually coming up for me? Because it's those feelings and emotions that really need tended to. If I were to tell Xander you feel this way, and he said, okay, sure, I feel that way, that's not actually going to be that satisfying for me because there's some underlying feeling that's being activated in me. That's why I'm attacking him.
0:23:04.62 → 0:23:38.36
So if I can access what that feeling is and say, this is what needs tending to, this is what I need, that's going to make the conversation go in such a healthier and more positive direction. Yeah, I think when we can down our shield and our sword and be like, what's the underneath part for me? What's the scared part in me? And can I vulnerably share that with you? It's not going to be comfortable, but you've got a much better chance of actually getting to the heart of whatever is happening and building a bridge between you rather than just like, firing arrows back and forth.
0:23:38.55 → 0:24:34.56
Something that I think, again, I certainly have personal experience with and I know a lot of other people will relate to is this distinction between, like, yeah, I want to have sex with you, but I actually want you to want that. And that thing that we want to be able to control our partner's feelings towards it rather than just getting the outcome of sex. And there can be a lot of charge around that and a lot of emotional density in that kind of dynamic of like it's not just that I want differently. I get a question a lot, which is like, how can I reframe it for myself so that I don't feel like my partner's doing me a favour by agreeing to have sex? Or like, that sex feels like a chore for them and it kind of detracts from it from my point of view, because I don't just want sex, the activity, I want a feeling of connectedness and I want to feel wanted.
0:24:34.69 → 0:25:12.88
Yeah, we call this I want you to want me. The dynamic that comes up a lot around this, we call this the inhibition effect that the longer you are in a relationship, the more inhibited we tend to get with each other around sex, particularly around initiation. So a lot of people, you've been in a relationship with your partner for years, even decades, and you find yourself getting more and more awkward and nervous and anxious about initiating sex. And so a lot of us in long term relationships, the way that we initiate intimacy is very boring, not particularly exciting. It's often like, it's been a while.
0:25:13.25 → 0:25:22.69
We do it. Do you want to do it? It's not very exciting. And it definitely doesn't give us that feeling of being desired. If Xander just tells me, do you want to do it?
0:25:22.76 → 0:25:54.60
I don't feel desired by him. Yeah. I mean, the only way that I respond super positively if she just goes, Want to do it? Is if I happen to be wildly horny. In that moment, you're actually not doing yourself any favours by a kind of low energy or roundabout initiation, because that actually sets the bar so high for your partner and you're setting them up to fail the test that you're kind of wanting to give, which is I want you to say yes and be super excited.
0:25:54.66 → 0:26:12.13
Right. So to get into the practicalities of this, the first step that you need to start with is identifying what makes you feel desired and wanted. So if I just tell Xander I want you to want me, great. What is that? Yeah, exactly.
0:26:12.28 → 0:26:37.61
And it could be very different things. So, for me, maybe the way that I feel wanted is by him giving me compliments about you. Like, you look so good, that outfit looks so nice on you, but somebody else might feel very wanted if their partner comes up behind them and just wraps them up in a hug. Somebody totally different might like, I like when my partner just grabs me out of nowhere and gives me a big kiss. So there are a lot of different ways that we can feel wanted.
0:26:37.68 → 0:26:56.87
And if your partner doesn't know the ways that work for you, then they're going to feel that nervousness and that anxiety and not really wanting to approach you with that energy. Yeah. And that's kind of where the second and the third conversations in the book come in. So the second conversation is connection. What do we need to feel connected?
0:26:56.97 → 0:27:19.52
And the third one is desire. What do we need to get turned on? And so with both of these, it's really about trying to uncover what are the things that make me feel most connected to you and what are the things that I do to you that make you feel most connected to me? And then, similarly, same thing with the desire. Like, what things really supercharge our own desire?
0:27:19.58 → 0:27:40.73
What things does our partner like? And how do we kind of give each other both what we need? The reality is, when we don't know what those things are, we tend to just assume, well, she must work the same way I work. So the things I love it when she cuddles me. So therefore, if I want to get more connected to her, I should just cuddle her.
0:27:40.77 → 0:28:16.49
And the reality is, what I've come to learn is vanessa physical affection is not the first thing that makes her feel the most connected to me or the most turned on. And in fact, Vanessa actually loves compliments. There's some very specific compliments that I have learned that she responds really, really well to. If I tell her she's killing it at anything, literally anything, she totally lights up. But if we had never talked about this, I would have never known that, because that, to me, I'm like, okay, thanks.
0:28:16.64 → 0:28:51.56
That's nice compliment, I guess I'm definitely not turned on as a result of that. And so it. Took me learning that and then actually having a lot of repetitions of doing it before I really, truly believed that it was working. Because to me it just seems so like it seemed too easy. But the reality is there's probably a lot of really easy ways that you could be feeling more connected with your partner, you could be turning each other on more that you are just not aware of, or you haven't had those things reinforced enough so that you really truly believe that you need to do them.
0:28:52.25 → 0:29:58.97
Yeah, and I think that that kind of leads into a really again, an important thing to normalise is like getting a bit pragmatic about curating your sex life and your life more broadly in a way that is supportive to your desire for sex and your connectedness with your partner. Again, it goes back to this very unrealistic expectation that if it's right, it should just be effortless or they should know everything that I need without me needing to tell them. My partner should be able to figure me out, know me better than I know myself totally. And that it's like some sort of indictment on us or our relationship if we have to take steps to make it work for ourselves. So I think whether it's curating contextually what supports us to desire sex or desire our partner or getting really clear on what gets in the way of that and kind of getting ahead of it rather than just expecting the stars to align and for us in all of our busyness for our partner in all of their busyness and bringing it all together.
0:29:59.04 → 0:30:36.21
And it just so happens to work, I think, yeah, it might not feel sexy, but not having sex isn't sexy either. Well, here's the funny thing too, is a lot of people will tell us, oh, I just missed the early days of our relationship. It felt so easy, so effortless then. But if you really take a trip down memory lane and think about those early stages of a relationship, there is so much effort that goes into that stage. You're scheduling dates with each other, you're usually pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, trying to do new things on the date.
0:30:36.33 → 0:31:05.23
You're putting your best foot forward, trying to present the best version of yourself to your partner. Even practical things like when Xander and I were dating, I could spend hours getting ready for the date, like getting myself so excited. So it's not that we have these magical days where there was zero effort involved, it's that we had a very different attitude about the effort. We got excited about it back then versus now. We judge ourselves for having to put in even the tiniest little scrap of effort.
0:31:05.31 → 0:31:49.16
Yeah, totally. And I think that tendency to just look at the early days with very rose coloured glasses, and it's not to detract from that at all, because, as we've said, there is something really lovely about that initial stage of a relationship. But I guess it's just like honouring that for what it is, while finding a way to see the more mature version of the relationship as an opportunity to go deeper, rather than like, oh, we've just lost that spark. And we just have to make our peace with that and kind of live out our days in this mediocre, lacklustre version of what we once were. So maybe next we can go.
0:31:49.18 → 0:32:28.68
I know we've still got two sex conversations, sex talks left, but what are the fourth and fifth conversation that we haven't yet covered? Or if there's more that you want to say on connection and desire? Yeah, we can go into number four, that's pleasure, fun one. What do we each need to feel good, to have a satisfying and pleasurable experience? And that one is another great one where so many of us feel this pressure to be amazing in bed, to be the best our partner has ever had, but a lot of us have never talked to each other about, well, what does good sex even mean to you?
0:32:28.81 → 0:33:20.81
So there's some really great conversations within that chapter all about starting to talk about it more openly and even exploring for yourself. What is it that brings you pleasure? Pleasure is a really interesting one in that a lot of people who come to us asking about low libido or like, low desire, what we find is that very often one of the main reasons that you don't have a very high sex drive, you don't think about sex very often, you don't want it. Very often is because the sex that you're having is not particularly pleasurable. Why would you be craving something that is not very enjoyable, or even worse, something that feels like a chore, something you have to have to take off, something that feels like it's more about your partner's pleasure than your own?
0:33:20.88 → 0:34:05.03
So the exciting part about this conversation is the opportunity it presents to really transform things in your sex life and also for yourself in terms of your own desire. Yeah, you touched on something there that I'd love to kind of go into, which is that tendency. I don't think it's exclusively gendered, but it's probably there's a lot of that, the tendency to focus on your partner's sexual experience and kind of ignore your own. And I think that the corollary of that is a real difficulty in receiving discomfort, in receiving it's. Like, I'm just so accustomed to being focused on ensuring you're having a good time that I actually don't feel comfortable with anything other than that.
0:34:05.07 → 0:34:24.15
Even if my partner was willing and wanting to focus on my pleasure, I don't really know what to do with that. It feels very exposing and vulnerable. Is that something that you guys see a lot? And what kind of advice would you give to people who struggle with receiving sexually. We see this all the time and it's also something that I've struggled with personally.
0:34:24.20 → 0:35:12.43
I share my story in the book about that. I struggled with orgasming with a partner for many, many years and I faked every single orgasm because I was so much more focused on my partner's experience on is my partner having a good time? I want to make sure it seems like things are clicking between the two of us that I don't seem too hard in the bedroom. I'm easy breezy and I think this is something that, like you said, it's not just limited to women, but as women, we are really socialised to be caretakers, caregivers, to put other people's needs before our own, so it's easier for us to slip into that role. And also compounding things is the way that we see sex depicted in the media.
0:35:12.50 → 0:35:51.99
Sex between a man and a woman is very focused on male pleasure. So it leaves so many of us women feeling broken because we feel like, god, I'm not getting a tonne of pleasure, I'm not having orgasms from this. Something must be wrong with me, so let me just fake it so my partner doesn't think anything's wrong with him. So yeah, it's definitely a really big issue that comes up for so many women. And that's one of the reasons why we're so excited about this conversation in particular, because we talk about the orgasm gap that's happening in male female relationships and we lay it out just in a very straightforward, matter of fact kind of way.
0:35:52.03 → 0:36:15.63
So there's no blaming of anybody in here. It's not like, oh yeah, the guys really need to fix this and they're doing a terrible job and you should feel ashamed of yourself or anything like that. It's just, hey, here's the reality of how female bodies and pleasure really work. Here are some of the challenges that we women come up against when it comes to being present and letting ourselves receive in the bedroom. And we talk about that.
0:36:15.67 → 0:36:36.22
A lot of male partners genuinely want their female partner to enjoy the experience. So it's just laid out in a really nice way that couples can read together and it takes the shame away from it while also giving you the information you need to start having sex. It's about both of your pleasure. Yeah. And I think it's so important as well for a lot of women.
0:36:36.67 → 0:37:01.11
There's probably some mindset work to do there around, like taking up the space and not feeling guilty or burdensome or that they're not going to enjoy it. So I just like the classic, I'm taking too long. And that's just such a surefire way to go into your head and out of your body, which tends to exacerbate it, right? Yeah. And that's a great story to cheque with your partner.
0:37:01.21 → 0:37:49.52
You could say to your partner, I have this story that I am too difficult in the bedroom or that if I were to allow you to focus on me, that you would get bored or resentful of me. Ask your partner that and see the response that you get because it's going to be very different from what you're fearing in your head. Yeah, because if I'm thinking about it right now, if I'm just asking myself what makes truly great sex, what first comes to mind for me is it's not about doing an act or doing the right sequence of moves. It's like I want to have an experience where I'm seeing my partner really, really enjoying things and feeling as good as possible. And we're both feeling really good.
0:37:49.57 → 0:38:11.53
We're both having a great time. I derive so much of my own enjoyment of sex out of the enjoyment that I see my partner having. It's not like, oh, I'm just in it for an orgasm at all. And so I think that that's so valuable to be able to cheque with each other. Like, what is it that we're actually looking for out of sex?
0:38:11.87 → 0:39:04.45
I think for most people, it's just that real, honest, mutual enjoyment. And I think another big piece in that is getting to know your own body. Because a lot of the time it's like, again, this expectation of that should all just be obvious or that my partner should know. And I think it is really hard to talk about sex, to ask for things if you don't really know what you like, what feels good, what doesn't. And so I think that in cultivating that sexual confidence, getting to know yourself sexually can really help you to feel like you've kind of a bit more prepared for that rather than a total beginner on your own body, expecting your partner to kind of have it all figured out for you.
0:39:04.54 → 0:39:33.98
Absolutely. And this is another way that the deck really gets stacked against us. Women, when we talk about masturbation in particular, men are really given much more permission around that there's a kind of like, oh, boys will be boys type of thing. But female masturbation is very looked down upon and so many women grow up feeling deeply ashamed. So we talk to women all the time who have never masturbated, have never even looked at what their genitals look like.
0:39:34.08 → 0:40:09.61
And so we are robbed of that opportunity to explore our own bodies, to discover what we like and what makes us feel good. The good news is that it's never too late to start doing this exploration. And sometimes getting yourself fired up about that crappy socialisation that we received can be a great motivator. Like, yeah, I've been robbed of this opportunity for so many years of my life and I don't want to waste another second. I don't want to let another moment go by where I feel like I'm not allowed to explore and to enjoy my own body.
0:40:09.81 → 0:40:39.98
And then on the flip side of all of that the deck has also been stacked against men in terms of the stories we get about sex, of feeling like we're supposed to be really good at it, we're supposed to be the leaders when it comes to sex. We're supposed to know somehow better than our partner does. If you're in a male female relationship, I think the stereotype or the story is like, it's all about giving her an orgasm rather than somehow both of you doing it together.
0:40:43.71 → 0:41:13.71
Guys talk to each other about like, oh, did you make her come? That kind of language. So it feels like, oh, well, this is what I'm supposed to be able to do. And I think a lot of men end up thinking, okay, well, I think I figured out what this one partner needed, and therefore that must be what all women need. And then you go into your next relationship doing that same thing, and if it's not working, it can feel like, oh my God, what's wrong with me?
0:41:13.75 → 0:41:41.00
And so it's just yeah, the story is never like, hey, every partner is different. When you start having sex, it's an amazing opportunity to get to know each other. It's like you get to start from scratch every single time. But instead we feel like, oh, we're supposed to take all this knowledge and these tools that we have from our past relationships and be really good. And the reality is, there's no such thing as being objectively good in bed.
0:41:41.05 → 0:42:18.67
Everybody is different, and we all need different things. Yeah, I think a person who's good in bed or a person who's sexually confident is a person who's willing to be vulnerable and have the conversations and do that messy work of fumbling through it and kind of allowing ourselves to be in that without being stuck in the rigidity of the sexual perfectionism that would have us believe that we're just meant to already know. So what's the fifth conversation? The fifth conversation is, what should we try next? Exploration is the name that we put on it.
0:42:18.76 → 0:42:50.33
So we've all heard the advice to try new things in the bedroom, and it actually is good advice. Research has found that when we try new things inside and outside of the bedroom with our partner, it just lights our brains up. It creates that sense of the spark of things feeling fresh and exciting, getting to see your partner in a new light, kind of like it did right at the beginning of your relationship, when you're pretty much only doing new things together. But when it comes to trying new things in the bedroom, a lot of us get very self conscious. It's like, I don't know what to try.
0:42:50.42 → 0:43:17.59
I don't even know what the options are to this conversation. We give you the options. One of the exercises in the conversation, it's like a huge list of possible things that you could try with your partner, and some of them are very small things, but even those small little changes or Tweaks can have a big difference. So we give you the options and we walk you through how to actually try new things in the bedroom without activating that sexual profession. Nice.
0:43:17.63 → 0:43:36.59
And I think that, again, comes back to this thing of like, oh my God, I don't want to look like an idiot. And it's so bizarre, isn't it? That our partner who sees us all day, every day, particularly if you're in a long term relationship. I love I can't remember exactly what you called it, but that like inhibition, the inhibition of sex. Yeah.
0:43:36.63 → 0:44:51.56
That the longer we're in it, the smaller we get in our sexual expression and really actively fostering the opposite arc so that we can be like, no. The more safety we create, the more we get to expand and grow and explore in our sexuality and really, like, creating the container for that to be the status quo in our relationship. And I think it is one of those things that feels really scary at first and then every time we have the conversation, it gets a little bit less scary and we get a little bit more comfortable with it. So it's like you just kind of have to take a deep breath and have that conversation the first time and you may have to fumble your way through it a few times, but just trusting that it's probably not going to be as scary as it feels like it's going to be. And I think arming yourself with all of this knowledge that can make it feel a bit less personal and a bit less hopeless going into it with those tools and that awareness that allows you to be optimistic and pragmatic and practical and, like, okay, maybe this isn't irreparably broken and there are things that we can do about it.
0:44:51.61 → 0:45:20.38
And I think taking solace in the fact that this is something that the vast majority of people struggle with to varying degrees at varying points in their relationship. There are very few couples who are just living that fairytale version of sex where everything works and never tapers and never fizzles. So rest assured that you're not alone in that. And it will take a bit of courage to have the conversations, but can really reap the rewards. Yeah.
0:45:20.40 → 0:46:07.54
And that was why it was so important to us to go first and be very vulnerable. In the book, we shared so many stories of things that went awry in the bedroom for us, of times that we struggled and felt like we were on different pages just to help people know you're so not alone. It's very normal, it's very common to struggle with sex, to struggle with that connection, with keeping that intimacy alive. But the good news is that with the conversations in the book, with these very practical tools that we share, you can absolutely recreate that feeling of closeness and get it even deeper and more intimate than you ever thought it could be. And I mean, even though Vanessa and I have had all these conversations, and we continue to have these conversations, our sex life is by no means perfect.
0:46:08.47 → 0:46:59.64
We still mess some of these things up, we still make mistakes and we realise that we've made a mistake and we loop back around and try to repair that. But I think the difference is when you are having these types of conversations and sex becomes a safe topic of conversation, yeah, you're going to screw up, things are going to go awry, your bodies are not machines. Like, nothing goes perfectly. But the difference is that now, when something goes weird or wrong or whatever, it's something that we can look back at and laugh about. It's something that we feel we feel more connected after sort of a sex mishap or something like that, versus when you don't have these conversations and it feels like, oh my God, that was so embarrassing.
0:46:59.67 → 0:47:29.45
It's this big, heavy thing that we can't acknowledge. So that's really the key with these conversations, is like, just turning sex into a fun topic instead of a scary topic. Yeah, totally. And I think that's kind of like, what we all want, ultimately, is for sex to feel light and playful and exciting and not this big, heavy, scary, dense, shame riddled thing. And I mean, yeah, my partner and I have been doing one of your courses, your Better Hot and More course.
0:47:29.52 → 0:48:12.03
So I can absolutely vouch for all of these tools and again, to kind of vulnerably share and normalise that it's okay to have to actively work on these things. And it doesn't matter who you are or what, you know, intellectually when it comes down to the actual being in relationship, we've all got work to do. And that's not something to be ashamed of. So is there anything to wrap up that you'd like to share? I just want the listeners to know, like I just said, that whatever challenges or struggles you're having in your sex life, you are definitely not alone.
0:48:12.13 → 0:48:44.41
And it's really this lack of conversation that has set all of us up for failures. That the decks stacked the decks against all of us, but that it is so possible to create the intimacy that you've always been wanting. And we hope that having these conversations will feel really fun and connecting for you. Where can everyone find you, obviously, on Instagram, your book and your courses. If they want to go deeper on Instagram, they can find us at Vanessa and Xander.
0:48:44.46 → 0:48:58.12
We show up in stories every day. We love hanging out there. Shoot us a DM. Let us know that you found out about us through this podcast. And then all of our guides and courses are@vmtherapy.com that's our website.
0:48:58.57 → 0:49:23.61
We love getting into the nitty gritty aspects of sex that nobody really talks about. So we have that better, hotter, more class that you mentioned. Then we have guides like our foreplay guides and next Level intercourse that really guide you through exactly what to do and when and challenges and all that kind of stuff. And then, of course, you can get the book@sextalksbook.com. We have a link there to all the different retailers.
0:49:23.69 → 0:49:50.77
And then if you want a free workbook that goes along with the book, just come back to that page, fill out step two after you've ordered, and we'll send you a free workbook so that you can go even deeper. Amazing. And I will link all of that in the show notes. Guys, thank you so much. This has been hugely valuable and I'm sure that everyone listening is going to have gotten a lot out of it and feel hopefully a lot more optimistic about the future of their sex life and what's possible.
0:49:50.86 → 0:49:55.18
So thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having us. Thank you.
0:49:58.19 → 0:50:20.80
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
Why Healthy Relationships Can Feel Boring
In today's episode, I'm answering the question of why healthy relationships can feel boring - especially if you're someone who's accustomed to drama and chaos in your love life.
In today's episode, I'm answering the question of why healthy relationships can feel boring - especially if you're someone who's accustomed to drama and chaos in your love life.
WHAT WE COVER:
why unhealthy relationships are so addictive
the principle of intermittent reinforcement
how to navigate discomfort around stable relationships
how to get your needs for novelty & excitement met in a healthy way without sabotaging your relationship
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.41 → 0:00:41.76
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge, and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I am going to be answering the question of why healthy relationships can sometimes feel boring, particularly if you've not had many healthy relationships.
0:00:41.79 → 0:01:20.04
And so you're coming into maybe your first ever healthy, stable, secure relationship after a string of really dysfunctional, turbulent, unhealthy relationships. This is something that a lot of people experience. There can be this almost unsettling discomfort of being in a relationship where there's no drama and chaos. And we can either feel that as a form of low level anxiety or maybe a loss of attraction or kind of disinterest in our partner because they're so stable and reliable and available to us and we're used to chasing someone who isn't. So there's lots to unpack there, and I'm going to be talking about that today.
0:01:20.65 → 0:02:07.34
Why unhealthy relationships can be so addictive. Even though it's ostensibly the opposite of what we say we want, there's something within us that chases that drama and that inconsistency, and that unpredictability. And what you can do if you do find yourself kind of uncomfortable with a healthy, stable relationship, rather than just pulling away or sabotaging it because it feels unfamiliar to you, I'm going to be offering some tips for you to hopefully get through those growing pains so that you can continue with and maybe not let go of the healthy relationship that you've worked so hard to find. That's what I'm going to be talking about today before I dive into that. Just sharing the featured review for this episode, which is I'm so thankful my friend sent me this podcast.
0:02:07.40 → 0:02:19.35
It's so nice to be more aware of why you feel and react to certain people and situations. Thank you so much for sharing all of this information. I'm forever grateful. Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I really appreciate it.
0:02:19.42 → 0:03:12.57
If that was your review, you can send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com, and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around why healthy relationships might feel boring. And I think that the best starting point for explaining this is to flip it around and go, why are unhealthy relationships sometimes so addictive? This is something that a lot of people will relate to. And certainly for a period of time, I found myself very much in that hamster wheel of chasing someone who was very inconsistent, very unreliable, very unavailable, and yet there was something extremely addictive about continuing to try and seek and chase.
0:03:13.39 → 0:04:08.36
And I think that a really important concept to understand in this is the concept of intermittent reinforcement. I've probably spoken about this once or twice on the show before, but for anyone who's not familiar with the term intermittent reinforcement, this comes from behavioural science, behavioural psychology, and it's basically a premise behind gambling machines, all sorts. Of addictive patterns, which is if you do not know when you are going to get rewarded, you will keep trying and trying and trying to do the thing that might elicit the reward because you never know when you're going to get it. Whereas if you know that every fifth time you do the thing, that's when you'll get your reward and that's very stable and predictable or even every one time you do it, then eventually you kind of get bored of trying. Whereas when you don't know and there's this level of unpredictability, you keep trying and trying.
0:04:08.41 → 0:04:42.83
That's why people spend all of their money on slot machines is because the next spin could be the one that I win. It's completely unpredictable. So I'll just go one more, one more, one more. It absolutely capitalises on our dopamine system which is all about pursuit and the pursuit of more of this thing that could be rewarding. So as applied to relationships, and particularly inconsistent relationships, we can see why chasing after someone who gives us intermittent reward and intermittent reinforcement becomes so addictive.
0:04:42.96 → 0:05:36.83
And most of the time when we're in an unhealthy relationship, it is not unhealthy and bad. 100% of the time there will be times and moments where this person shows up and you are connected and you do feel good and you laugh together or you are intimate or whatever, something that feels rewarding about that dynamic. But then all of a sudden it'll be gone and they'll be angry or you'll be fighting or whatever. But there's this sense of I don't know when the reward is going to come and sometimes when I behave in this way it works and other times it doesn't. And so I'll just keep trying and trying and trying and trying and because that is so dopamine fueled and it's so addictive that intermittent reinforcement, we can get really trained to seek that and expect that and associate that with relationships.
0:05:36.88 → 0:06:29.59
And that is a real hamster wheel, it's a real roller coaster that keeps us at this elevated level of stress and striving in our relationships. If we then take that away and we enter into a relationship with someone who is stable and predictable and reliable and we don't have to work really hard and we don't have to guess and we don't have to play all of those games. Our system can kind of be in a bit of disarray because we are used to operating up here. And all of a sudden, all of that energy that we're used to expending in our relationships doesn't really have anywhere to go. And there's a part of us that's uncomfortable without all of that chaos and drama because we kind of trained our body and our nervous system to expect it and to be primed for it and to actually get something out of it.
0:06:29.63 → 0:06:40.25
Because when we do get the reward, even when it's very intermittently, it feels so good. In fact, it feels even better for the fact that it's so unpredictable.
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Again, to use the slot machine analogy, if you do win, even if it's $5 and you're down $200, it is so exciting and exhilarating and lights you up to have won $5 and you lose sight of the fact that you have lost $200, right? It's the same principle. If the person who you're in this really unhealthy relationship dynamic with is dismissive of you 95% of the time, but then brings you flowers, one day those flowers are going to feel like the most incredible thing in the world because they're so out of the ordinary, and you never really know when you're going to get something like that. So when that is the backdrop, going into a relationship with someone who's really stable is probably going to feel disconcerting, at least to certain parts of you that are used to working really, really hard to get kind of basic needs met to get basic recognition, basic connection. So I think having conscious awareness of this is a really, really important first step, as is always the case, right?
0:07:48.40 → 0:08:22.46
No matter what our pattern is, if we are not consciously aware of it, we are just going to be blindly acting from a wounded place, from a kind of subconscious protective place. And then we're going to wonder why we keep repeating patterns and we're not where we say we want to be. That's because we're not acting from a conscious place. So the place we consciously want to be, like that part of us just isn't in the driver's seat of our experience. So when we can get curious and go, I notice that maybe I'm not even attracted to healthy people in the first place.
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And I think that's the case for a lot of people. You might have heard me say before, I always correct people's question when they ask me, like, why do I attract unhealthy people? And I think we really have to ask ourselves, why am I attracted to unhealthy people? And that is a much more honest and self responsible question and one that we actually have power over. Why am I attracted to what part of me seeks out people who fit a certain mould, who are inconsistent or unreliable or unavailable to me in some way?
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What do I get out of participating in those dynamics? Because if we don't know the answer to that, that subconscious part of us that does get something out of it is going to keep running the show. So getting really curious going, what do I get out of this? What part of me prefers the chaos and the drama and feeling like I need to work really, really hard to get my connection needs met and feeling a sense of victory or worthiness when that unavailable person shows up for me. And spoiler alert, oftentimes this has origins in our family system or in earlier relationships.
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It's very rare that it is born of the situation that you're kind of reenacting it in, but bringing conscious awareness to that and going, okay, what part of me needs my attention there? Rather than just going, oh, this healthy person, I'm not attracted to them, therefore they must not be a good fit and I'll break up with them and then I'll go into a pat and repeat with that other person. Right? So I think we do really need to become aware of that and decide which part of me do I want driving the bus here in my relationships, my wounded parts, or my wise adult self who knows what I truly want and knows what I deserve and what's best for me. So if you do find yourself in this situation where you're in a healthy relationship and it feels boring or it feels disconcerting or unsettling in some way, I think there are a few things to remind yourself of.
0:10:29.70 → 0:11:16.94
One is that stability and predictability and reliability is not always terribly exciting. And I think that we don't have to resign ourselves to the fact that our relationship is going to feel boring forever and ever and we just have to accept that. But I do think we have to manage our expectations around the fact that comfort and stability and cosiness and safety are not always the most exhilarating and exciting of experiences. And recognising the benefits to that to that stability and that safety and really allowing ourselves to be nourished by it again, particularly if that has not been your experience in the past. It might feel uncomfortable at first, but it is probably the medicine that you don't realise you desperately need to just be able to rest in that safety and security.
0:11:17.01 → 0:12:11.28
That's probably going to be a really healing experience for you. With that being said, I think we can also acknowledge if we are someone who values excitement or adventure or any of those other kinds of qualities in a relationship, those are things that we can deliberately cultivate. We don't just have to feel like we've given up because a relationship is healthy and cosy and comfortable and that necessarily has to come at the cost of excitement. But I think that distinguishing excitement and adventure and novelty from drama and intensity and chaos is an important distinction to make. So if you do value those things, figuring out for yourself what a healthy expression of that kind of energy looks like, rather than just defaulting back into the chaos and the drama that you know so well, but that is also really costly to your system and is not a nice pattern to keep spinning around in.
0:12:11.46 → 0:12:59.27
So what could be examples of things that would inject and infuse some excitement and maybe even passion into my relationships, but not with this undertone of turbulence or anything that feels like it's injecting insecurity into my system. Because that's an easy place to gravitate back towards when it is our familiar. But it's likely to be an unhealthy pattern, repeat rather than what we truly need in order to heal those wounded parts of us. So I hope that that has been helpful in answering the question of why healthy relationships can feel a little bit uncomfortable or boring, particularly if that's new to you to have a healthy relationship. But as I said, stick it out.
0:12:59.34 → 0:13:33.43
Definitely don't run at the first sign of discomfort. All relationships are going to have growing pains, and ending a relationship because it feels too safe and secure is probably not a great idea. So stick it out. See how you go. And if you do really miss that sense of excitement and rush and exhilaration, try and find healthier and more adaptive ways to consciously cultivate those dynamics within your healthy relationship, rather than going and seeking chaos and drama elsewhere to get that sugar hit.
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So I hope that that's been helpful. If you enjoyed this episode, as always, I'd love for you to subscribe, leave a review, leave a rating. It all helps so much in continuing to spread the word about the podcast. Otherwise, I look forward to seeing you for our episode next week. Thanks, guys.
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Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg.com or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thank again for being here, and I hope to see you again soon.
Understanding Your Nervous System with Sarah Baldwin
In today's episode, I'm speaking with Sarah Baldwin - a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner and Trauma Coach who is trained in Polyvagal interventions and is on the training team at the Polyvagal Institute. Sarah specialises in somatic trauma healing, attachment work, parts and inner child work and nervous system regulation.
In today's episode, I'm speaking with Sarah Baldwin - a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner and Trauma Coach who is trained in Polyvagal interventions and is on the training team at the Polyvagal Institute.
Sarah specialises in somatic trauma healing, attachment work, parts and inner child work and nervous system regulation.
WHAT WE COVER:
why nervous system regulation is the missing piece in so much healing work
understanding the different states of your nervous system
the connection between attachment and nervous system regulation
how to distinguish between anxiety and intuition
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Sign up for my signature 8-week course Healing Anxious Attachment
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
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You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here.
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Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today is a very exciting and special episode as I am joined by Sarah Baldwin. If you don't know Sarah's work, sarah is a somatic experiencing practitioner and trauma coach. She's trained in polyvagal interventions and is on the training team at the Polyvagal Institute. She specialises in somatic, trauma healing, attachment work parts and inner child work and nervous system regulation.
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So I'm sure that you can imagine from that introduction in that bio, you can understand why I'm so excited to have Sarah join us here today. We're going to be talking all about the role of the nervous system in influencing, shaping, regulating our emotional experience and how becoming more fluent in our nervous system can really support us to become more empowered in not only our relationships, but our life more broadly. So, Sarah, welcome. Thank you for joining me on the show. Thank you so much for having me.
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It is so good to be here with you today and so good to be here with everyone listening. So we've got a lot of ground to cover. Let's dive straight in. I speak about nervous system regulation a little bit on the podcast. It's something that I cover in my online course around anxious attachment.
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And to be very honest with you, when I first created that course and included a module on nervous system regulation, I was worried that people's eyes would glaze over, I'd lose people because it might not sound that sexy to people understanding our nervous system. I was always really pleasantly surprised that people came back and said, you know, wow, this, this changes everything. This is really the missing piece. And it is a paradigm shift. And that's certainly been my personal experience as well.
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And so I'd love to hear from your perspective why this stuff matters, why people should care about their nervous system. Well, our nervous system, our autonomic nervous system specifically, it is responsible for creating our entire experience of how we perceive the world, ourselves, others. And our entire experience is a result of what's happening inside of this nervous system. And so first and foremost, that's really huge. If there's a system inside of us that has that kind of power over our lives, shouldn't we know about it?
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And I say this a lot, but I think it's so fascinating that we learn about outer space and solar systems and black holes and so on and so forth and so many other things, but we are not taught about the system that resides inside of us. Not understanding this system essentially means that we are kind of like put in the backseat and it goes on cruise control and that means we're making choices behaviours and so on, and having choices behaviours, so on and so forth, that are not perhaps things that are of our choice but are of a survival response. What I like to say is that at any given moment there are six states within our autonomic nervous system that we can be residing in. And I think of that like imagine if you had six pairs of glasses that all had different coloured lenses, a rose coloured lens, a dark brown lens, a bright red lens that happened to have frenetic energy moving around in it, a beautiful clear lens. And at any given moment you have one of those lenses on how you are seeing everything, experiencing everything, is depicted by that lens.
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And when I say everything, I really mean everything. Meaning our thoughts, our behaviour. So the actions we take, our feelings, things like feeling hopeful, curious, loved, loving, anxious, frustrated, worried, concerned, frozen, trapped, apathetic, depressed. All is dependent on this nervous system, the sensations we feel in our body. So sensations are things like feeling tension or feeling relaxed, feeling numb or feeling here.
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All of those things are entirely decided upon by this nervous system. And not just that, but the way in which we connect with other human beings via attachment is directly related to what's happening in our nervous system. So it's really imperative that we understand this system within us because it is the answer to really unlocking the lives that we desire. It is the foundation of all healing. I can explain in a bit what I mean by that, but it's really foundational in our experience as a human being.
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Thank you for that. I think it's also, in my experience, the answer to this question of like why am I like this? Or why does this keep happening? In that sense of none of this makes sense. It's like you kind of can step outside of that and go actually, a lot of this makes sense, maybe all of it makes sense.
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And I think that that in and of itself can be a really powerful experience. Just to have someone tell you no, there's an explanation for this and there's a system behind it. And understanding that rather than feeling powerless and feeling that, we have all of these conflicting parts with different motives and taking us in different directions which might be very different to the direction that we ultimately want to go. Not understanding why we aren't where we want to be again, whether that's in work or our romantic relationships or anywhere else, our emotional state. Yeah.
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So first I just want to say I have a complex trauma history myself and spent most of my life dysregulated and not knowing what was happening or why it was happening or how to change it, or why sometimes I felt okay and sometimes I didn't feel okay and sometimes I felt really not okay. And I didn't understand any of it. And not only that, but the traditional mental health model is set up in a way to make people feel as if something is wrong with them, using words like dysfunctional or maladaptation or treatment resistant anxiety or depression and so on and so forth. And I'm not at all saying that diagnoses can't be helpful, but when we look through a lens of there be or even something like insecure attachment styles, all of these are through lenses of there's something wrong with you and you're deficient and neuroscience and polyvagal theory, it shows us unequivocally that the opposite is true. There is absolutely nothing wrong with us if we are experiencing dysregulation of our nervous system.
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In fact, everything is working exactly right. Our system is never confused. It is so incredibly, exquisitely powerful. And as someone who experienced the opposite for so long, it was so good to know that. And that's why I say all the time and have a programme called You Makes Sense.
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And I'm writing a book with the title You Make Sense because it is so good to know that we make sense. And if we make sense, that means there's something we can do about it. So, just to explain this, which might be a really new term for a lot of you, your autonomic nervous system, like, what is that? What does that even mean? So within us, each of us, is this brilliant self protective system.
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We all have one. In fact, every mammal has one. And any moment we are experiencing one of six places inside of this self protective system. So there are many members of this autonomic system that we have, like members of the team. And I liken it to a special ops team, not for any military affiliation, but because a special ops team in general is the best of the best.
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It's very hard to be on a special ops team. And a special ops team has many members, all with very different roles. They don't all have the same role, which is important because there's going to be different things that we need done on the team. Our autonomic nervous system is the same. It is the best of the best.
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It is the strongest system within you. Parts of it are 500 million years old and every member has a different job. But they have one mission, just like a special ops team, one primary purpose. And that primary purpose is to keep you safe and alive at all costs. It loves you so much, it will do whatever it takes to make sure that you are alive and okay.
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And it does that in the form of Dysregulation. And I'll explain what that is in a second. So the first line of defence, or the first special ops team member, is you can think of as our threat detector. So imagine it standing out in front of you and its whole job is to look out into the world and look inside of you to see is that safe, dangerous or life threatening? Safe, dangerous or life threatening.
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And here's the thing. For anyone listening who has felt like you are broken, like you are beyond help, like something is wrong with you, I hope in this episode that you are able to see that. Science says that couldn't be further from the truth, my friend. Because this threat detector, every millisecond of your entire life, every millisecond which is really fast, everyone, it has been looking out into the world from the moment you came into this world saying is that safe, dangerous or life threatening? Is that safe, dangerous or life threatening?
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Is that safe, dangerous or life threatening? Is that safe, dangerously threatening? It's doing it right now wherever you are in the world listening to this episode. And that first of all talk about not weak, right? That is really strong.
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It also looks internally, which is called interception neuroception. That coin is termed by Stephen Porges is its ability to look outside of us. So you might be saying, well, how does it decide what is safe, dangerous or life threatening? Well, it looks to a database of past information that is inside of each of us. Think of it like if you have your own personal database and inside your own database is every lived experience you've ever had.
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You don't have to remember it, it's in the database. And that means the really yummy, wonderful, amazing things are in there. Like the birth of your child, or a wonderful vacation, or laughing with friends, or a wonderful moment family. The not so good experiences like being bullied in school, or a medical procedure that did not go well, or not being heard, seen or known, or the life threatening experiences like neglect, or abuse, or emotional abuse, or racism or sexism or colonialization or whatever kind of traumas you might have experienced, all of them are in there. Not only that, we also have our ancestors experiences, our parents experiences in there.
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Unresolved trauma. That's the concept of epigenetics in there as well. So when my threat detector is looking out into the world, like right now I'm looking outside of my office in Los Angeles, California, there's a beautiful tree. And immediately when I looked at the tree, I felt something in my body that said it's nice. I noticed like a smile come on my face and I noticed it felt good.
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The reason being is because in my database there's lots of information of I grew up in the middle of the woods and my home wasn't safe, but the woods were really safe. So anytime I see a tree, my threat detector says that's safe. Now, if let's say I had caregivers whom I was never good enough with and they always, every time I brought a report card home, it was never enough. It was never enough. It was never enough.
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For example, let's say you have a boss who says, hey, who's a lovely boss? So nice. They're not like your parents who were so hypercritical and unkind to you. They say, hey, we have to do your quarterly review. Well, guess what happens?
0:12:23.86 → 0:12:39.64
The threat detector says, whoa, we have data about that not being safe. We're going to feel like we're not good enough. We're small. We're also like reminding us of our younger parts, and that's not safe. And so here's what your threat detector does in a millisecond.
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It says, what did we need to do back then to maintain safety? And we know you maintain safety because you're here now. And it says, we're going to do the same thing now. That was the right thing. So the threat detector calls in one of six Special Ops team members to do the trick to protect you or to let you be in safety at any given moment.
0:13:02.91 → 0:13:19.32
So let's say let's go to the example of the boss. So your system says, whoa, that's dangerous, but I think we can do something about it. It's dangerous, but not life threatening. Meaning I think we might be able to fight this thing or flee this thing. So in a millisecond, it calls in something called your sympathetic nervous system.
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That's a team member of your Special Ops team. So imagine that you had your hands closed in front of you. It's almost like it's like a door closing you off from the external world. And that's what it's like when our sympathetic nervous system or any state of self protection is protecting us. It's blocking us from the bad thing.
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And it also the crux of that is it keeps out the things that we desire. So if we're finding ourselves stuck in our lives, that's a clue. I might have a Special Ops team member standing in front of me. So sympathetic is all about the doing. And I'm just going to name some things so folks can hear what that's like, because a lot of you might really know this state.
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So let's say a boss is saying, hey, we have to have that talk. And all of a sudden, neuroception threat detector says, hey, that's not safe. Sympathetic, come in. Sympathetic comes in in a millisecond. All of a sudden I feel anxious.
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I feel concerned. My heart rate increases. I have racing thoughts like, wait, did I do something wrong? I don't know. Did I not?
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I left work 15 minutes early last week and I don't know if I told mine I left work 15 minutes early last week and wait, I don't know did I get the assignments done that I said I was going to do? And all of a sudden I'm sweating and I feel tension in my body and there's tension in my jaw. All of a sudden, my jaw is tight, my neck is tight, my shoulders are up to my face, my ears. Rather, I have tunnel vision. I can't focus on anything else.
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I have butterflies in my stomach. I feel like I can't digest food or I'm going to throw up. And there's so much energy in my body, you can probably hear that in my voices. I'm putting this on for you. That's called your sympathetic nervous system and all about the doing.
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And we want that system. It's really evolutionarily. A wonderful system to have. For example, just to give you an evolutionary response, or example, let's say a lion was chasing me. My system, my threat detector would say, hey, I think we can do something about this run and get away.
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So when we're here, here's what I want listeners to know. What is so extraordinary is this sympathetic system talks to every organ in your body and essentially says not just organ, but chemical release, hormonal release, and says we need everybody to get on the memo of self protection right now because we love this person so much, we need to make sure they're safe. So what happens is your immune system, your system says, do we need our immune system right now if we're running from a theoretical lion? Absolutely not. That shuts down.
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Do we need our GI tract functioning properly and digesting food? No way. Shut that down. We don't need that functioning fully. We'll shut it down just to function minimally.
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Hey, cortisol and adrenaline. We need you to hike up so that we can sprint away as fast as we possibly can. Thinking brain, prefrontal cortex. Do we need to think and rationalise learn a new language if we're running from a lion? No way.
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Liver. Do we need to detoxify properly? No. So all of that extra energy goes to increasing our heart rate, increasing our overall energy in our body so that we can sprint or flee the thing as fast as possible. So this is a brilliant self protective response.
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It is one that a lot of people find themselves in. Now, that's not the only self protective response. We have two others. The other is let's imagine the theoretical lion that I just described is no longer, I don't know, 300 yards away, it's 5ft away or a yard away. It's very close.
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And so what the threat detector says is it says, woof, this has gotten more dangerous than I thought it was going to be. And team Sympathetic, who's all been about mobilising, running and running, running, you weren't able to properly or able to do. You did your best, but you couldn't get us away from the threat. Not your fault. You did your best that you could.
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What I'm going to do is I'm going to call in our most extreme form of self protection called our dorsal vagal complex. Now, this is a different state. Remember I said there's six states, this is the second state or another one of the six states. Imagine it standing in front of you guarding you now, this state's job, and I think this is so beautiful. It comes online when our system is saying, my love, I don't think that I can fight this thing for you.
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I can't get rid of it and I can't make it stop. But what I can do is help you to leave your body so that you don't have to feel the perpetual pain of what we can't make go away. When I learned that, I thought, wow, if this is not a loving system, I don't know. It is. It has never let us down.
0:17:40.42 → 0:18:04.07
When other people may have let us down. Your nervous system never ever has, my friend. And so every the beautiful thing is every mammal actually has the ability to access this dorsal system. And for example, the impala that's going to be eaten by the lion. Its system lovingly says, my dear, I can't make this stop, but I can help you leave your body so you don't have to feel the pain of this.
0:18:04.19 → 0:18:25.44
And I just think like wow, we are amazing beings. Like wow, that is so cool. And I'm saying that everyone is someone who spent a couple of decades in this state of dorsal, not in my body. And there's a variety of experience here, so this might sound familiar. Some of this here's what it can look like, feeling apathetic, I don't care.
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The things I used to, like, nothing seems enticing or good. Then I start to feel a little out of it and fuzzy. I have low energy. I'm feeling like I can't really think. I'm starting to notice that tasks like folding the laundry, answering emails, doing errands, like, oh, it feels impossible, I just can't do it.
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I notice that I'm feeling almost like I'm going into outer space. Like I'm floating away. I feel numb. I can't really feel my body or I'm floating above my body. I feel hopeless.
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I feel shame. Something's wrong with me. I can't I'm not capable. I'm not able. I feel depressed.
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I feel dissociated levels, that there's levels of dissociation which can leaving your body, which can start by feeling like maybe even like oh, I took a sleeping pill, but I didn't. And I feel out of it and weird and kind of drugged, but I didn't take a drug. So what's going on? I'm just not here in my body. I can't feel my body or my face or all the way to I don't know who I am or I don't think the world is real or I don't remember how I got here today.
0:19:33.75 → 0:19:54.46
That's a very deep level of dissociation. And that is think of it like a bear going into hibernation. Everything is shutting down and everything inside of us shuts down too. All of those internal organs begin to shut down as well as our heart rate and so on and so forth. All to help us leave our body and so that we don't have to feel the perpetual pain of what's happening.
0:19:54.51 → 0:20:30.12
So if we experience neglect as a child, if we experienced work environments that were really toxic, that we felt like we couldn't leave, if we had home environments that were abusive, if we had parents who were fighting all the time, or alcoholics, or they were emotionally unwell themselves, or we were physically harmed, or we experienced so many other things that are life threatening. What occurs as we go to this state? And then there's one more state of dysregulation that we experience, and it's called freeze. Now, freeze is equal parts that sympathetic. The sympathetic is like think of it like a cheetah sprinting off.
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It's so much energy, lots and lots of energy. And dorsal is the opposite, bare and hibernation. So we have two equal and opposite forces and they come together equally. One saying I have to, one saying I can't. And so when these forces come together, it creates something called tonic immobility.
0:20:48.79 → 0:21:02.65
So think about it, something that I have folks do. And if you're listening, try this out. Push with both hands equally. Like, put your hands together and push as hard as you can and keep doing that for a few seconds. I'm doing it right now with my hands in front of me.
0:21:02.74 → 0:21:14.37
I'm pushing them together as hard as I can. And what I'm noticing is it takes a lot of effort to do this. I'm feeling a little warm. My heart rate is increasing and I'm going to stop it. But I wanted you all to practise that.
0:21:14.41 → 0:21:25.30
Because when we're in freeze, people think, why didn't I do something? I just stood there. Why didn't I say something? Why didn't I fight back? Why didn't I?
0:21:25.32 → 0:21:34.09
Why didn't I? Why didn't I? Which creates a lot of shame. And what I want you to know is when you're in freeze, your system is doing so much. It takes a lot of energy to be here.
0:21:34.21 → 0:21:53.50
To follow the animal analogy, it's like a deer in headlights. So what it's like is all this energy inside, but I'm frozen, so I'm trapped in it. A couple of simple examples of what that can look like. Let's say you want to step towards something in your life. You want to start a business, and you're like, I really need to start it.
0:21:53.52 → 0:22:03.95
And I feel behind and I really need to get going. And you sit at your computer and you're like, I have 75 million things that I want to start and do. I start with hiring this person or this person or doing this or doing this. I mean, there's so many things to do. What did that person do when they started their business?
0:22:03.99 → 0:22:10.66
I don't know. And then all of a sudden, I feel blank and overwhelmed and I'm like, I just need to go to bed. This is too much. I can't do this. I can't do this.
0:22:10.76 → 0:22:15.06
It's too much. No, but I need to do this. No, but I can't do this. No, but I need to do this. No, but I can't do it.
0:22:15.08 → 0:22:43.26
And then you're like find yourself organising your junk draw for the 12th time because you just can't seem to step towards the thing. But all you do is think about stepping towards the thing that you can't seem to step towards. That is a classic experience of being in this state of freeze. Simple example you get a text from someone that's kind of hard to read and you think I really need to respond back, but you're like yeah, I'll do that later, I really need to do it now, I'll do it later. And you think about doing it for 8 hours, but you don't actually do it and you're exhausted by that experience.
0:22:43.36 → 0:23:05.06
That is a self protective state of free. Those are the three states of Dysregulation in our nervous system. And again, when we're in those states, the only reason you are there is because your nervous system doesn't think you're safe. That's the only reason. Now you may be wondering well, I'm safe now why is it doing that?
0:23:05.16 → 0:23:48.76
And the reason it's doing that, if you do find yourself in safety, meaning like it's safe to start that business, it's safe to use my voice, it's safe to be seen, it's safe to be vulnerable, it's safe to take up space, it's safe to have desires or whatever. That's because your database has information about how that wasn't safe in the past. So every time you go to step towards something similar in your present life, the threat detector says that's not safe. And so part of understanding this nervous system, or why nervous system regulation is so important, is because if we have a database filled with experiences in the past where people weren't safe, being seen wasn't safe, belonging wasn't safe. Being in my body wasn't safe, being present wasn't safe and so on and so forth.
0:23:48.89 → 0:24:30.48
Anytime something similar happens in my current life, my nervous system via my threat detector is going to say that's not safe and an immediate occurrences. I experienced what's called Dysregulation or one of those three states of self protection. I just did a lot of talking, I could explain the state of regulation, but I hope that's beginning to make sense for folks of why we experience this. Thanks Sarah, I really appreciate all of that. And as you were talking, the thing that really struck me is that understanding that is such a portal to compassion both towards ourselves, but also to other people and particularly people who we might be in relationship with.
0:24:30.66 → 0:25:40.26
As you were describing the experience of that dorsal state, I couldn't help but think of that classic anxious avoidant dance and how for a lot of anxious people who spend a lot of time in that sympathetic I've got to do something, do something, do something very activated mobilised state. And those protective mechanisms of moving towards and if they are with a more avoidant leaning partner who tends towards more of a dorsal response of this I'm out of options. Just like how can I vacate? Because I feel kind of defenceless against this and how those responses can just be really at odds and from each person's perspective. The other person's response is such a cue for danger for the person in sympathetic who's desperate for engagement and connection via even if it's via conflict, the person whose system is taking them out, that feels really dangerous and so can just trigger an escalation.
0:25:40.40 → 0:26:26.02
But for the person who's endorsel, who feels like there's a lion coming towards them, it's just impossible. And so I think that it's so useful for people to understand not only their own system but to start to be more attuned to the cues in other people's systems and going, okay, what might be going on for them? How might they be experiencing me as well as what's going on in my system and what do I need? Yeah, it is so important to understand that. That's why I say I do a lot of somatic attachment work and the foundation of all of it that I quickly realised in my work around the nervous system is oh well, you can't do attachment work unless you're doing nervous system work.
0:26:26.20 → 0:27:05.07
The way that we attach is entirely based in our nervous system which is why for any listener who's read like for example, the book Attached, maybe it's the most famous one although I like John Bowlby's book, I mean, both are great but that's a little more dense. But anyway, you read a book and you're like oh, that you got an AHA moment. Ah, that makes sense. But it doesn't actually create any change in your life because that all in books are wonderful but they're cognitive meaning it's giving me understanding of things. But it's really important to understand about your nervous system and how you show up in your relationships is your nervous system is subcortical and that means it lives in your body, not in your thinking brain.
0:27:05.20 → 0:27:48.25
Your nervous system does not understand a verbal language because it doesn't reside where your verbal thinking, your prefrontal cortex, which is in your brain, resides. And this is why we can learn a lot of things but then it doesn't actually affect change in our lives. So the more that we can become get in the driver's seat of our nervous system, the more it changes everything. And what you mentioned about having compassion for or at the very least understanding for what's happening in other people's systems is so imperative because just to quickly name for listeners, here how intricate this system is that I just described. Remember, we all have a database, so what happens when we come into relational dynamics?
0:27:48.30 → 0:27:56.98
A lot of people have had this experience where you meet someone and you're like I feel like. I've known them forever. I'm so drawn to them. I am so attracted to them. I don't know why.
0:27:57.03 → 0:28:15.87
I feel like, how could I possibly live life without them, even though you've only known them for three weeks. And here is why. There's an actual reason for that. Remember, we all have a database, right? And the threat detector's job, it's really its job is to not only suss out danger for you, but it's to say, what does this remind me of?
0:28:15.94 → 0:28:24.60
That's what it's doing all the time. What does this tree remind me of? What does Sarah's voice remind me of? What does the sun right now remind me of? What does this man remind me of?
0:28:24.62 → 0:28:37.92
This woman, this person? And so on and so forth. Anyway, so it looks to the database. So when it comes to love and relationships, guess what it looks to first? It looks to the database and says, what intel do we have on that?
0:28:38.02 → 0:29:02.09
And it looks to your earliest childhood experiences and says, that's the information we have on what love is. Okay? Love is the experience of let's say I'm anxiously attached. My experience of love is I'm just making a possibility up. I have a caregiver who is preoccupied with working all the time or they are not fully available to see me.
0:29:02.24 --> 0:29:11.91
That's what love is. So that's all our system knows. That's what love is. So guess what happens? I meet this person and they are what we would call the word workaholic.
0:29:11.96 → 0:29:48.02
They are really preoccupied with their work. And so my system says, oh, I feel like I've known you forever. I'm so drawn to you because neuroception is saying, you remind me of my childhood and that is what love is. Now, the other person's, Neuroceptive response says, I've got a database too, and in it I have let's say I had a caregiver who was not regulated themselves and whose young parts were looking for me to help them. Maybe the relational dynamic was my mother was looking for me to emotionally soothe her instead of looking to her partner.
0:29:48.16 → 0:29:55.47
And so that's what I have on this database. And she was really anxious a lot. And then I meet you. Whoa. That's what I know.
0:29:55.62 → 0:30:23.98
That is what I'm drawn to. So now we have one person who's avoidant, one person who is anxiously attached coming together, which is the most common combination. Why are they coming together, though, based on what's in that database? That's the whole thing. So we come together and guess what transpires when an occurrence happens, like, let's say an argument occurs, my threat detector says, what intel do I have on arguments?
0:30:24.01 → 0:30:43.13
I'll give another example. The avoidant person says, whoa, I have information about how people harm you. People hurt you. They either emotionally hurt you or they physically hurt you. And so what I learned to do as a child was become an island because there was no one to help me or the people that were there to help me were dangerous.
0:30:43.25 → 0:31:00.93
And so when a fight occurs, my system I'm not doing that. My system takes over like autopilot, and it says, my love, I have to pull you to the island. People aren't safe. And this is reminding me of that. And in a millisecond, we're pulled to that island where we retreat, we shut off.
0:31:01.00 → 0:31:25.85
We feel like we just have to get away now. The anxiously attached person says, whoa, I have intel on being abandoned as a child. And so my system says, I need to do whatever I can to make you stay. And all of a sudden, my sympathetic system comes in and says, what did I need to do back then? Oh, disregard your own needs, disregard your own feelings, say things, just be good, and maybe we can get them to come back.
0:31:25.92 → 0:31:56.19
So we say things like, oh, it doesn't matter, I don't even care. Let's just come back into connection, because I just need us to be connected in order for me to be okay. And in that experience, I call it the island and the speedboat. So the more I go to my island, the more I get in my speedboat and drive to your island, which makes me want to dig a hole in my island and go underneath the island to get away from you, and I want to get even closer to you. And we're in this dynamic which is all rooted in Dysregulation and what's happening in those receptacles.
0:31:56.32 → 0:32:15.13
And not only that, but when this occurs, we essentially are transported back to younger parts of ourselves. So we're no longer in that adult self. It's whatever was in that receptacle. Our threat detector says, this reminds me I was eight. So it's as if we time travel back to being eight.
0:32:15.28 → 0:32:33.95
And this is why, if you've ever been in a situation where you feel like, small, scared, out of control in a relationship, and then later when you feel better, you think, I can't believe I did that. I can't believe I said that. What was going on? Well, it wasn't you. It was your nervous system and a younger part of you.
0:32:34.07 → 0:33:00.35
And so the foundation of our relational experiences, really the foundation of everything, is this nervous system, because that's what's driving how we show up in our relational dynamics. And the more to your point is we can see, oh, them going to their island actually has nothing to do with me. It has to do with what happened to them in the past. And going to that island in the past was the right choice. It was the best choice that they could possibly find.
0:33:00.44 → 0:33:31.28
But that doesn't mean they don't care about me, love me, and so on and so forth. Or this person that's coming towards me doesn't want to control me. They want to feel in control because it can be experienced as that person wants to control me? No, it's because they feel so out of control inside that's why that's occurring, that those behavioural responses. So the more we can see that, the more that it decreases or at least doesn't increase the activation we feel about like wow, you don't care about me or you are trying to suffocate me or whatever.
0:33:31.41 → 0:34:20.58
We can see where it's actually rooted in and not only that, but can say hey, we need to pause and regulate our nervous systems before trying to have this conversation because otherwise we won't even be able to hear each other when we're dysregulated. Our thinking brain isn't working, which is why it feels like you're going round and round in a conversation without hearing each other because you're not hearing each other when you're dysregulating. Yeah, I love that. And I think the image of the speedboat and the island will really resonate with people for me. I've done a lot of work on it, but certainly Lean anxious, and the urgency when you're needing to reach someone that feels like they're slipping away and the sense of emotional abandonment in those moments can feel.
0:34:21.43 → 0:35:16.84
I think the story that a lot of anxious people will relate to is how could you abandon me in this moment when I need you most, when I am escalated and emotional and I'm reaching for you? But it is that thing of the tendency to make the other person's behaviour about you when it really has very little to do with you. And I think that the more we can see that try and step into an observer kind of role, not only does that help us to make better decisions and to regulate and create the space to do that, but I think that for me, at least, even the act of pausing to go, oh, okay, look, I'm getting really activated. That in and of itself is settling to my system because it feels like you're less consumed by the experience and you're able to witness yourself in it a little more. I'd be curious to get your take on in that example.
0:35:17.45 → 0:35:57.23
What would you say to people who feel like they spin around in that cycle? Pretty reliably, which I think without the knowledge and the tools is likely where you will go if those are the patterns in your relationship. You mentioned pausing and that's certainly the advice that I give people is nothing good is going to come of that when one or both of you is dysregulated and likely if one of you is, the other will follow soon thereafter. So pausing I think is a really big one. I think again, for anxious people they may tell themselves the story of that's just giving the avoidant person what they want and what about me?
0:35:57.27 → 0:36:30.85
And so my advice is space with boundaries. So let's take a break for 30 minutes and then agree to come back. And I think that that is kind to both people's system. What would you sort of counsel people on how to manage those dynamics and how best to regulate their system so that they can have conversations, challenging conversations, in a safe way? Yeah, well, first I just want to validate for both parties, it feels like life or death because for a child, that when we're born, we don't have the ability to self regulate.
0:36:30.95 → 0:36:56.89
What that essentially means is it is not physically possible for a child to regulate themselves or calm themselves down when they are dysregulated. The crying it out method actually just brings a kid into dorsal. It doesn't actually regulate them. When a child is in that state of distress with no one there to help regulate them. What a child needs is someone who is in what's called their state of ventral.
0:36:56.94 → 0:37:36.91
So that's our state of regulation. Who picks the child up and doesn't get scared about the child's dysregulation, doesn't say, oh my gosh, you're just so scary, but instead holds them, maybe does something somatically like sways and pass them on the back. And what's called mirror neurons, the adult's nervous system, calms the child's nervous system down. Now, what we know in research around attachment shows is we needed that 30% of the time in order for us to have what's called a secure attachment, which means relationships are to distil it down, filled with relative ease. For us, we feel safe in them, we feel safe with distance and also closeness.
0:37:37.07 → 0:38:04.20
Now, for many of us, we did not get that. And so as a result, what transpires is therein lies the anxious attachment or avoidant or disorganised. So what occurs is when we have a rupture or an argument occur, it's as if we've time travelled to being that infant again. And so you used really interesting words like how could you do this to me? Or those weren't your exact words, but essentially, how could you pull away or do this to me when I need you most?
0:38:04.33 → 0:38:28.67
And what I want listeners, if you say you find yourself saying that that is a young part of you who is saying that to your caregiver, not to your partner. I know it seems like you're saying it to your partner, but where is that rooted in? It is rooted in your childhood. It actually has nothing to do with your caregiver. Not that we don't not and I'm not letting someone off the hook for just disappearing, but why is this here in the first place?
0:38:28.79 → 0:39:08.80
Because a young part of you is present in your body. And here's the thing, I think it's just maybe hard to hear, but really important for listeners to hear that there is no amount of an adult in our lives picking that young part of us up that will ever be enough. So if you're looking for your partner to change and be this really perfect partner, it still wouldn't be enough. My friend and the reason being is because only we can become what I call the primary parent to our young parts. But most people are looking for their partner to pick the young part up, rescue me, save me from this experience.
0:39:09.25 → 0:39:44.93
And it can be helpful for a little bit like a band aid, but it'll just come back again and again. And now I'm in a codependent dynamic. And what we can do, and what I want you to know that this can change, is the more you regulate your nervous system and you become what I call a competent protector. So the adult self, you've got the adult self of you present. What we can begin to do is when we notice this younger part showing up, I can do things to help them to regulate, just like I would with a scared kid, the same exact thing, so that I'm turning towards them and picking them up.
0:39:45.02 → 0:40:09.81
And then my partner can be what I call the secondary parent. So it's not that we don't want our partners help, but not that we're looking for them to rescue us anymore, because they can't ever do it. It's not possible. And that creates a codependent dynamic. So what I would say is, in these dynamics, the work of someone who's anxiously attached is my job is to build my capacity for what's called self regulation.
0:40:10.47 → 0:40:36.98
Co regulation is connecting to other people. To regulate self regulation is learning that I can also regulate with me. And so what I want you to do is what's really important is we don't just practise this when we're in a fight, because that's like if I was a firefighter, but never practised the drills and just went into there's a fire and I had to figure out how to fight fire, I wouldn't be able to do that. They practise, right? So we need to practise when we're not experiencing arguments or fights.
0:40:37.04 → 0:41:06.33
And the practising of someone who's anxiously attached is I want to start seeing, can I do things that can bring my nervous system into regulation? So throughout the day, it might be something like maybe some humming or tapping or swaying or shaking or I'm going to go on a walk by myself. And I've got lots I'm sure you do, to Stephanie. Lots of therapeutic tools that I give folks that are somatic in nature. But there's different things we can do to show our nervous system, hey, I'm safe, and we do that ourselves.
0:41:06.46 → 0:41:35.11
So we want to build our capacity to do that, so that when we're in a relationship, we can tolerate space. And we know that regardless of what's happening in the relationship, I've got you little parts, I'm not going anywhere. So someone who is avoidant, your job is to practise coming off the island, that's not going to feel good at first. So that's called practising co regulation. And we want to do that outside of arguments, like, can I step towards closeness, can I step towards intimacy?
0:41:35.16 → 0:41:47.76
When someone says, how was your day? Instead of just saying it was fine, how was yours? Expand on that. How was your day? When someone says, hey, I want to share vulnerably or intimately with you, instead of saying, how can we do that later?
0:41:47.81 → 0:42:14.90
Can I lean into that a little bit? Or asking for help and so on and so forth, can I lean off the island going on a walk with a friend? And so on and so forth, all of that shows my system connection is safe. So that is what I would say the most important. That's what I focus on because otherwise I'm trying to put a fire out or put a bandaid on without ever practising or building my capacity, which means I'll never be able to change the dynamic.
0:42:14.96 → 0:42:41.50
So that is the most important. And then during the actual argument or experience of a rupture, what I recommend is, number one, remembering this is their nervous system, not them. This is their nervous system right now. And a younger part of them is present, just like a younger part of me is present. And that when you can talk about that, when you're both regulated like, hey, what do you notice happens for you?
0:42:41.60 → 0:43:02.24
And here's what happens for me. And even having a code word, like it doesn't have to be even a big code word. It just could be a phrase like, I think we're both no longer in regulation, or I'm in my speedboat, are you on your island? Or whatever, you can use terms like that, that clue you into. We're both dysregulated.
0:43:02.35 → 0:43:36.83
And so what's necessary is and what I recommend is the avoidant person who needs to go to the island. Otherwise, if they try to force themselves to stay, they're just going to become more shut down. And so them saying and having a word that they say or a phrase they say, I love you and I need to go to the island right now so that I can get myself back. So what I'm doing is I'm extending to you a connection. I love you and I need to go to my island and let's Cheque in in 20 minutes or whatever and see if we can talk about it now.
0:43:36.92 → 0:44:12.41
And the sympathetic or anxiously attached person, your job, which is very important, is to see what can I do to tolerate the space and needed for you to begin to be able to tolerate that space. And how can I comfort these young parts of me which can include connecting with other people as well during that time. And then I just like to say, if the 20 minutes, if the avoidant person is still not back online and regulated, then we want to say, okay, can we try again in 20 minutes? We don't want to say we have to now. So sympathetic person is probably going to say no, but you said 20 minutes.
0:44:12.53 → 0:44:35.89
And the problem with that is if our nervous systems don't have choice, we need choice, it creates Dysregulation. So if we feel like we're trapped in a cage or we're cornered, we will just become Dysregulated. So that we need to have that consistent checking in, but not that like you have to now because that will just increase Dysregulation too. Thank you for that. I love what you say.
0:44:35.93 → 0:45:10.27
And that point I think is really important, that for an anxious person, you're not regulating for them, you're regulating for you. And I think that particularly when the experience or the story might be, what do I need? I need connection with them. That's a quite disempowering place to live, right? To not be able to give ourselves any of that, to be able to self source a sense of safety, to be solely reliant on, I have to tether to this person, otherwise I'm not going to be okay.
0:45:10.47 → 0:45:46.02
And so I think that as you describe being able to be with the discomfort of space and increasing our capacity to hold that, that's not just giving them what they want. That is really important work for you and building your capacity. Yeah, it is the work for someone. It is the most important thing. And that's the beautiful thing I think about all healing work is something one of my mentors, Peter Levine, says, the creator of somatic experiencing.
0:45:46.13 → 0:46:06.20
He says it's never too late to have the childhood we deserve. There's other folks who say similar sayings, but what that really means is the more I do trauma work and somatic work, the more it's very clear to me time is not linear. We are travelling time all the time, anytime you're activated. And it doesn't have to do with there's not present danger in your life. That's a clue.
0:46:06.23 → 0:46:34.74
You've travelled time. In our relationships, we're travelling to the past all the time. So if we can travel back there, meaning I feel like I'm eight years old again or two years old again, then we can also bring our adult selves back to those young parts and finally give them what our caregivers couldn't give them. And when that occurs, my friend, when that happens, we imprint a new childhood experience. And as a result of that, we get what I call an internal secure attachment.
0:46:34.93 → 0:47:04.72
Now my young parts no longer feel unsafe and they no longer are choosing partners or staying in relationships that don't really serve them because they're safe with me. So now I'm making choices in my relationship based on my truth, instead of making choices or with partners based on survival. And it makes everything a whole heck of a lot easier and it all comes within. So yeah, that work is not for the other person, that is for you. Yeah, I love that.
0:47:04.74 → 0:47:31.31
And I think that emphasis on choice is so important. It's like when we're in fear, we feel like we don't have choice. It's like it's life or death, and I'm going to be trapped, and I'm going to be stuck. No matter where you sit on the spectrum, that tends to be the undertone of that experience and resourcing our systems and reminding ourselves we're not there anymore. We're here and now, and we have choice.
0:47:31.81 → 0:48:07.45
We have agency. It always feels like it's me or them. It's my way or their way, right or wrong, villain, victim. It's like, what are the million other possibilities that sit in between those extremes? And I think the more time we can spend in regulation, the more steps we can take towards that, the more those possibilities become available to us, and we can start taking steps towards those because I think that messy middle ground is really where healthy relationships live, rather than at battling between extremes.
0:48:08.11 → 0:48:20.43
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Beautifully said. So I would love to ask you just one more question before we wrap up, if you have time. Something that I get asked a lot is around self trust.
0:48:20.50 → 0:49:06.17
And for people who have really struggled in relationships in the past, perhaps they have really been hurt. That threat detector is very sensitive, and so people might go, okay, when I become really activated, I'm so convinced that there's something wrong, how do I know if that's my system legitimately warning me of a real threat or whether I'm being paranoid, I'm reacting to nothing. How do I know the difference? And what would be your advice for people in navigating that experience and how to respond to that? Well, when we are in that, our system is always going to think that whatever we are experiencing is true and based on what's happening presently.
0:49:06.25 → 0:49:29.44
And here's why. Because when, as I mentioned before, the threat detector, how that works. Like, let's say you haven't heard back from your partner, they're 30 minutes late to getting home, and you had a caregiver who had an affair at work, or even an ex partner who had an affair at work. And you know that your spouse is really fond of a coworker in a very, maybe appropriate way. But we're fond of people.
0:49:29.57 → 0:49:53.25
And all of a sudden, guess what your system does? It looks to the receptacle, and it says, that means they're having an affair and I can't trust them. And this is really bad. And in a millisecond, you're no longer going to be in the present moment thinking of your partner, but you're going to be with that ex partner that cheated on you, or you're going to be in that childhood with that caregiver who had multiple affairs and was never around. And so I'm not in the present moment anymore.
0:49:53.30 → 0:50:11.31
I am back in that experience. And if I asked you in those past experiences, hey, is this truly happening right now? You would say, yeah, it is happening because it was happening. And so that's what occurs when we're dysregulated. So we don't want to ask ourselves, what is my truth right now when we are in that heightened state of Dysregulation?
0:50:11.47 → 0:50:34.13
Instead, what I want you to do is say to yourself, my whole job right now is to get regulated. And I need to do we would need a lot more time to talk about how to regulate. But regulation is I like to say it's a game of show, not tell. We cannot talk our way into it. We have to show our nervous system that we are safe and we are in the present moment because it doesn't understand a verbal language.
0:50:34.18 → 0:50:59.42
Which is why if you've been anxious and you told yourself, just calm down or you're fine, doesn't help. But there are things we can do to regulate. And then when you're feeling more like you, which means you're regulated, you feel present here, capable, able, which might be later that day or the next day, I want you to ask yourself a simple thing and just say, did my reaction match the circumstance of what was happening? Did my reaction match the circumstance? Lovingly ask yourself that.
0:50:59.52 → 0:51:21.90
Not with like, talking yourself out of reality, but just curious. And if I said to myself, you know what, that level of panic didn't seem to match the 30 minutes, or my level of rage didn't seem to match the 30 minutes. Now doesn't let them off the hook. Feeling annoyed or frustrated would match the circumstance. But that level, did that match?
0:51:22.35 → 0:51:38.76
No. So then I want to ask myself, okay, what does this remind me of? If I think about this, have I ever felt this way before? Because that's clueing you into what this is predominantly actually about. If you say, oh, it feels like when I was a little kid, that's who's showing up.
0:51:38.78 → 0:52:04.40
That's what this is predominantly about. That's important because that's the part that needs your help. And then I want to ask yourself, okay, so based on this adult me, that's present now, what do I feel about what happened? Because that's going to tell you how much of the response is actually based in the present. And if you say, that's not okay, yeah, that really isn't okay to me, and I need to know what's going on more or I need to know where they are.
0:52:04.42 → 0:52:34.73
You can't just disappear when you said you're going to be home 30 minutes earlier. And then I can communicate. That need for myself is really helpful so that I can tease out, what's about the past? What's about the present? And then lastly, what we want to do with our adult selves is I invite folks like in that example infidelity to want you to write down, I call it an evidence journal, all the actual data you have of your partner being a safe person, that they're not like that partner in the past or that caregiver.
0:52:34.81 → 0:53:04.67
And I want you to go back to it and as you read it, I want you to feel it in your body, all the evidence you have of how they are different, which helps show your system in that database. They're different, they're different, they're different. So those are the exercises that I like to give folks, just basic ones that can help support when having that kind of experience. Thanks, Sarah. I'm sure that will be really helpful for people because I think in those moments, to have a level of an action plan can be really supportive.
0:53:04.85 → 0:53:37.68
Yeah, you're totally right. So important to have. Okay, well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining me. This has been incredibly helpful, informative, insightful. I have no doubt that for everyone listening, it's going to really offer some powerful reframes on understanding yourself, understanding others, and hopefully really empowering you to take steps towards greater self knowing and being able to build our capacity to be with our range of experiences.
0:53:37.74 → 0:53:55.94
And, as we've said, really step into the driver's seat of that, rather than feeling like we're at the mercy of an unruly horse that's bolted. So, Sarah, thank you so much. Where can people find you if they want to go deeper with you and your work and your programmes? Thank you. First of all, thank you so much for having me.
0:53:55.96 → 0:54:17.79
It's been such an honour to be here. And for anyone listening, I'm so glad we could spend this time together. You can find me@sarahbaldwincoaching.com, you can also find me on Instagram. I do lots of free teaching and events on there at Sarabcoaching. Those are the two places and you can find all of my courses and programmes in either place.
0:54:17.99 → 0:54:28.66
Amazing. And we will link all of that in the show notes for anyone who's interested. Sarah, thank you so much for joining me. Everyone who's listening, thank you so much for joining us. I'll see you again next time.
0:54:31.35 → 0:54:53.98
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
Navigating Perfectionism in Anxious-Avoidant Relationships
In this episode, I'm talking all about perfectionism - but probably not in the way you've heard it spoken about before. Perfectionism is often thought of as a personality quirk - a commitment to high achieving and having things a certain way. But when it comes to relationships, perfectionism can be a powerful protective strategy that keeps us from being seen and known as our authentic selves.
In this episode, I'm talking all about perfectionism - but probably not in the way you've heard it spoken about before.
Perfectionism is often thought of as a personality quirk - a commitment to high achieving and having things a certain way. But when we dig a little deeper, we can see that perfectionism is about so much more than personal preference and having things a certain way. It's about fear and control. About needing to be perceived a certain way in order to feel acceptable and worthy.
So what does this have to do with attachment and anxious-avoidant relationships?
Well, here's how it usually looks.
On the anxious side, there is a self-imposed perfectionism.
A deeply held belief of “I need to be a particular way in order to be loved. Because if I falter, and show someone my “unacceptable” parts, they're not going to want me anymore and I'll be rejected." In this way, perfectionism takes the form of a harsh inner critic, policing our expression and making sure we don't put a foot out of line lest someone confirm our worst fear by losing interest in us.
On the avoidant side, perfectionism often takes the form of impossibly high expectations on a partner.
As a relationship progresses, many avoidant people will notice themselves becoming inexplicably irritated by and critical of their partner - sometimes to the point of disdain and contempt. This is often a subconscious distancing strategy that arises when the relationship is becoming more serious and committed.
In being highly critical of their partner and holding them to a standard of perfection that is unattainable, the avoidant person is able to convince themselves that the other person's flaws mean the relationship isn't “right”, thereby protecting themselves from the extreme vulnerability of being truly seen by someone.
So what happens when we bring together one person who is terrified of putting a foot out of line because they're so convinced that they are fundamentally unworthy and unlovable, and the person who is terrified of intimacy and vulnerability and so subconsciously creates distance through focusing on someone else's shortcomings in a way that allows them to bypass doing the work themselves?
Unfortunately, these core wounds fit together like puzzle pieces.
And while it's 100% possible to shift these dynamics with the right tools and self-awareness, it's easy to see how these protective strategies can reinforce and enable each other.
If you want to go deeper on this topic, be sure to check out Wednesday's episode of On Attachment, Navigating Perfectionism in Anxious-Avoidant Relationships.
WHAT WE COVER:
how anxiously attached people hold themselves to standards of perfection as a way to gain and keep someone's interest
how avoidantly attached people use perfectionism & criticism as a distancing strategy to avoid intimacy & vulnerability
what happens when these strategies collide in an anxious-avoidant dynamic
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:04.25 → 0:01:08.19
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's episode is how perfectionism impacts our relationships and specifically looking at competing dynamics of perfectionism in anxious avoidant relationships. So I think that for a lot of us, we associate perfectionism with high achieving and striving to be the best and maybe being competitive or maybe being a bit particular about the way we like things. But I think that perfectionism runs a lot deeper than that, and it's almost always coupled with fear, shame, anxiety and aversion to vulnerability.
0:01:08.27 → 0:01:58.82
A lot of resistance to being seen by someone in our authentic expression, in our mess, in our imperfection. And so perfectionism in that way can be seen as a protective strategy to keep us safe from those things that we fear most. And in relationships, I think it can show up in a few different ways. And so that's what I'm going to be talking about today, looking at how it shows up differently for more anxious leaning people versus more avoidant leaning people. And then what happens when those opposing dynamics, both fueled by aspects of perfectionism, what happens when they come together and those opposing forces meet.
0:01:59.67 → 0:02:27.83
So that's what we're going to be talking about today. To be very transparent with you, I'd actually recorded a whole nother version of this episode and it was all ready to go. And then at the last minute I had some new ideas about what I wanted to say that was a little bit different. And so I decided to scrap the original version and rerecord this. And no, it is not lost on me, the irony of me doing that on an episode about perfectionism.
0:02:27.91 → 0:02:56.13
But what can I say? I am as much a work in progress as any of you listening. But nevertheless, I do hope that today's discussion is an insightful one and an interesting one. I think that there will be a little something in there for everyone because I think that perfectionism and all of its tentacles are pretty farreaching and can affect all of us to varying degrees. So that's what today is all about.
0:02:56.28 → 0:03:35.82
Before we dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. The first being that my healing anxious attachment course is going to be reopening for enrollment next month and I have opened a waitlist. So I have gotten a lot of messages lately from people who either have recently discovered my work and are keen to go deeper, or people who maybe wanted to join a previous round of the course but weren't in a position to, for whatever reason. So the waitlist is now open and the link to that is in the show notes. If you join the waitlist, which is obviously totally free and no obligation, that will mean that you'll be the first to know when enrollment opens and you'll also get a discount.
0:03:35.88 → 0:04:04.57
So definitely cheque that out if you're interested. The second quick announcement is just to share the featured review, which is steph has such beautiful, considered and practical advice to offer. After my own long term relationship ended last year, I've personally found the podcast so helpful in trying to come to a greater understanding about what didn't work and why. And now, how to navigate life post breakup. I'd recommend this podcast to anyone who's looking to gain a deeper understanding of themselves or the way they show up in relationships.
0:04:04.91 → 0:04:43.64
Thank you for that review. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephaniereg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes of your choice. So let's dive into this conversation around perfectionism and anxious avoidant dynamics. So I'm going to start by giving an overview of what I often see as perfectionistic tendencies in anxious leaning people, how that tends to show up for them. I'll then move to talking about more avoidant leaning people and what their brand of perfectionism tends to look like, and then we'll look at what happens when these things come together.
0:04:45.29 → 0:05:30.00
So for the anxious person, perfectionism tends to be a self imposed expectation of I need to be a particular way in order to be worthy of love. I need to be palatable, I need to be acceptable, I need to not have any flaws, I need to look, act, be a certain way, otherwise I'm going to lose you, I'm going to be rejected, this person is going to lose interest in me. It's not safe for me to be seen in my fullness because no one's going to want that, no one's interested in that, no one's going to like that. And so my window of expression becomes very small. We see in this for the anxious person.
0:05:30.10 → 0:06:22.45
A lot of those extreme people pleasing behaviours that I've talked about, a lot shape shifting, not really knowing who you are, what you stand for, what your values are. Just really wanting to be liked and accepted to the point of fairly extreme self abandonment, but also hand in hand with a lot of micromanaging of how we're perceived by others. So I need to control the way other people see me because that is paramount to me, creating and maintaining safety for myself via connection with those people. That's at least how it feels, right? If I put 1ft out of line, then the worst is going to happen.
0:06:22.49 → 0:07:21.20
I'm going to lose my partner, I'm going to lose my friends, I'm going to be outcast or rejected or shamed or seen to fail or seen as not good enough. And all of those deepest, darkest fears that I hold within me will come to fruition. And so what we see here is that at the heart of this perfectionism, this rigidity, this need to control how we show up and how we're perceived, is ultimately that same fear of abandonment that lies at the heart of so much of anxiously attached people's, wounding and associated protective strategies. When that's the counterfactual, that's the thing that we think is going to happen if we don't behave in that way. That's always a really insightful and illuminating shortcut to understanding what's driving our behaviour.
0:07:21.26 → 0:08:20.86
We go what am I afraid it would happen if I didn't do that thing, if I didn't micromanage the way I was perceived, if I allowed someone to see me other than in my most shiny expression, what am I afraid would happen? And for most anxious people the answer there is going to be they wouldn't like me, they don't want that part of me. And so we see that that self rejection, that deep self belief that only parts of us are lovable or worthy of love are acceptable, are safe to show people that self view bleeds into the way we show up in relationships. On the avoidance side, what we tend to see is perfectionistic expectations on a partner. So for more avoidantleaning people, I think a very common experience, a common sort of trope would be feeling really attracted to someone to begin with.
0:08:20.99 → 0:09:23.45
And then, as things become more committed, more serious, more steady, an avoidant leaning person will often find themselves inexplicably irritated by their partner nitpicking things, just finding them so almost feeling like disdainful of their partner, noticing everything that's wrong with them. All of the ways in which they are deficient or annoying or imperfect and finding themselves extremely activated by that and very judgmental of it. Now of course this is not universal, this is not going to be true for everyone, but it is a really common experience for more avoidant leaning people as relationships become more serious. What we often refer to as getting the ick about someone oh, I'm just inexplicably turned off by you when a month ago I was totally smitten and suddenly now I just can't stand you. Where is that coming from?
0:09:23.49 → 0:10:45.46
And I think that if that's something you notice in yourself it is a really good opportunity to pause and go okay, what's this really about for me? Rather than just taking it at face value and assuming that the relationship isn't there's something wrong with the relationship or the other person. So I think that the way that this tends to play out for an avoidant person is that their perfectionism is a perfectionism imposed upon their partner, consciously or otherwise, and is ultimately a distancing strategy, a protective strategy that is designed to protect them, to keep them safe from having to be vulnerable, be intimate, progress in a relationship where that feels really edgy and unsafe. And so we can see that me being highly critical of you and holding you to a standard of perfection that is unattainable, saves me from having to be vulnerable with you and letting you see me, which is what I fear is going to happen if we continue down this path. So I'd rather focus on your imperfections, use those as evidence of the fact that this isn't the right relationship, maybe end the relationship or otherwise sabotage it.
0:10:45.56 → 0:11:36.43
And that saves me from needing to be seen myself. So while these show up in different ways, the anxious person is using perfectionism to try and cling and control and grip. The avoidant person is using perfectionism as imposed on the other to try and create distance. Both people are terrified of being seen and that's really the common threat. I've spoken before in a recent episode around similarities between anxious and avoidant people, that a similarity is fear of vulnerability and that neither anxious nor avoidant people are great at really being vulnerable, really being seen, really allowing other people in, even if it looks different on the surface.
0:11:36.61 → 0:12:55.33
So what happens when we bring these together, when we bring together the person who is terrified of putting a foot out of line because they're so convinced that they are fundamentally unworthy and unlovable and yet they want connection more than anything. So they're walking on a tightrope to try and gain and keep someone's love. And then on the other side, you've got someone who is terrified of intimacy and vulnerability and closeness and also of looking within because that's so foreign to them a lot of the time that it's easier to project onto the other to create distance via criticism or noticing someone else's shortcomings in a way that allows them to bypass doing the work themselves. And so we've got these two people and unfortunately, as so often happens, that woundedness on each side, they fit together like puzzle pieces. And if left unchecked, without conscious awareness and a willingness and ability to shift those patterns and heal, they will absolutely reinforce each other and provide more evidence for the painful stories.
0:12:56.23 → 0:13:51.81
Again on the anxious side, if they're with a partner and all of this is playing out unconsciously and they're with an avoidant partner who is absolutely noticing their imperfections and criticising to create distance and that's going to provide evidence for the anxious person's story of I can't be imperfect because when I am, they leave, they pull away, they lose interest. And that reinforces my story that it's not safe to do that. So it's really important if you notice these dynamics in your relationship, whether a current relationship or a previous one. And I should say this can happen in very early dating or it can exist long into established relationships. It is so important that you bring conscious awareness to this on both sides and that you commit to shifting those patterns and meeting those edges.
0:13:51.89 → 0:14:22.92
Because, as I said, left unchecked, these almost like complementary wounds will just reinforce each other. They will poke each other, they will trigger each other, they will reinforce each other. They will provide more evidence to support the fears underlying those protective strategies. And so those protective strategies will never feel safe to step aside. Those protective parts will absolutely keep working in overdrive and on and on will go right.
0:14:22.99 → 0:15:41.73
That's kind of how it all works. So you will need a level of willingness on both sides to meet these edges and this is not going to be overnight change because anything where we are turning towards our deep fears, our shame, our terror, our unworthiness, our really fundamental attachment and relational wounds, it's tender and it's got to be gentle but it is possible. So the growth edge for you if you are the more anxious leaning person in this kind of dynamic is to practise allowing yourself to express and be seen in your mess. That doesn't mean that you have to have a public breakdown. But it does mean not just zipping yourself up so tight and pretending to be fine all the time and going with the flow and going with what everyone else wants and never taking your own needs, feelings, concerns, preferences into account, never allowing yourself to be in need.
0:15:41.90 → 0:16:22.32
So that might look like leaning on friends more leaning on a therapist, practising in those training grounds that don't feel as high stakes as a relationship. We don't want to test those edges in a super high stake scenario so go gently. But ultimately the work is allowing ourselves to be imperfect and to be seen in that imperfection. And that's a really important point because I think so much of perfectionism, particularly on the anxious side is being seen in it. It's not just acknowledging our imperfection for ourselves as between me and me.
0:16:22.42 → 0:17:04.42
I know that I'm imperfect but can I let someone else know that and see me and that in a way that is outside of my control and therefore truly vulnerable? That's the growth edge on the avoidance side. Your work is to get really curious every time you notice that urge come up to criticise as a way to create distance. When you notice those doubts come up, those voices saying maybe this isn't the right relationship. Maybe idealising previous partners or hypothetical partners as oh I would never have to deal with this with that person and that's why this relationship is bad and that alternative is better.
0:17:05.29 → 0:17:30.49
Notice that and get curious. Go what's that keeping me safe from? What does this allow me to not have to feel or experience? What does this allow me to avoid if I lean into this impulse to criticise, create distance and pull away. Because the reality is, as we all know rationally nobody's perfect.
0:17:30.61 → 0:17:56.47
Relationships aren't perfect. It's all messier than that. And being in a healthy, secure, committed relationship is about choosing someone in all of their imperfections but choosing someone who you love and trust and care for and committing to that and accepting all of them. So that's really the growth edge for the avoidant person. And relatedly.
0:17:56.81 → 0:18:55.21
I think looking at does my criticism of them, does my pointing the finger there and making them the problem them, the imperfect one allow me to bypass looking at my own stuff, looking within, considering the work. That I have to do, because that's likely very uncomfortable for you as a more avoidant leaning person to have to see the ways in which your stuff contributes to the pattern. And it is always going to be easier to blame the other person and make them the imperfect one, the defective one, and tell ourselves that the next relationship will be different. But this goes for everyone. Our wounds, our patterns tend to follow us wherever we go until we do the work to tend to those parts of us that drive us to those protective behaviours.
0:18:55.31 → 0:20:06.95
So I hope that this has been an interesting discussion and that it's given you some food for thought on your own perfectionistic tendencies, to the extent that you can relate to that and perhaps how your relationship might be exhibiting aspects of this tussle between different expressions of perfectionism with kind of different surface goals, but similar underlying fears of being seen. And, you know, that self rejection of I can't let someone get too close to the real me because I can't control what happens there and I'm so terrified that that wouldn't be lovable or acceptable or worthy, and so I have to use whatever strategy I can to prevent that from happening. And I think that that is a common thread between anxious and avoidant people in this respect and in many other contexts as well. As I said, I hope that that's been helpful and has given you something to reflect on. If you've enjoyed this episode, as always, super grateful.
0:20:07.00 → 0:20:43.60
If you can leave me a fivestar rating if you're on Spotify or a review if you're on Apple podcasts or whatever else you can do wherever else you're listening, I really do appreciate it and I look forward to seeing you later in the week for our Q and A episode. Take care, guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie—rigg or at stephanierieg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review on a five star rating.
0:20:43.66 → 0:20:48.36
It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
5 Questions to Assess the Emotional Health of Your Relationship
In this episode, we're talking all about emotional health & safety in relationships. We'll be discussing some guiding principles and questions you can ask to assess how emotionally healthy your relationship is, and most importantly, what you can do to improve the emotional safety of your relationship.
In this episode, we're talking all about emotional health & safety in relationships.
If you've ever wondered what "emotional safety" actually means, look no further - we'll be discussing some guiding principles and questions you can ask to assess how emotionally healthy your relationship is. And most importantly, what you can do to improve the emotional state of your relationship - because let's face it, this is going to be a work in progress for most of us.
WHAT WE COVER:
the importance of feeling safe to voice needs, concerns & boundaries
why we should aim to navigate life's challenges as a team
the ability to safely & effectively repair after conflict
why we should be feeling loved, cared for & respected (most of the time!)
how your nervous system can give you insight into your relationship's emotional health
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:28.33 → 0:01:03.33
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm going to be sharing with you five questions to ask to assess the emotional health of your relationship. So this is going to be diving into some of the hallmarks of emotional safety, emotional wellbeing, and we could say emotional green flags. Insofar as your connection with your partner is concerned, I think a really important thing to foreground at the outset is, first, that this topic is not intended for people who are in abusive situations or unsafe situations.
0:01:03.43 → 0:01:44.71
If that is the situation you're in, I really encourage you to seek support. That's not something that I can speak to in a podcast episode. It's not the scope of my work. So please take good care of yourself and be discerning. If that's you outside of that situation, please know that if you fall on what we might call the wrong side of the line in terms of the questions that I'm going to pose to you today meaning that you feel like you have a lot of room for improvement on the emotional health front, know that that doesn't mean that you are doomed, that your relationship is terminal, that you are in a toxic dynamic.
0:01:44.76 → 0:03:47.56
Any of those things that might feel stressful to realize, I would encourage you instead to take it as room for improvement, areas for growth, things to focus on, cultivating. Because the unfortunate reality is many of us, dare I say most of us without the knowledge and the tools will have had experiences with these less than perfect emotional safety kind of situations as we'll get into shortly. So those are just some caveats at the outset.
0:03:48.25 → 0:04:50.75
The first question is, do you feel safe and able to express how you're feeling to set a boundary to voice a need, or to give someone feedback without worrying that it's going to blow up or spiral into a fight, or that there will be some other adverse consequence? For example, that the relationship is going to end, that they're going to say they're going to leave, that they're going to say, oh, it's too much, let's not bother. Do you have a level of safety in bringing to your partner whatever it is that you're feeling or needing without having that fear of adverse consequence? So this is obviously really important to the emotional health of a relationship to be able to have that container of whatever is within me - of course, we don't need to give our partner the raw, unfiltered, high charge version of that - but being able to take what we're thinking and feeling to our partner to the extent that there's a conversation that needs to be had, I think this is really foundational.
0:04:50.85 → 0:05:50.46
Because in the absence of this, if we don't have that safety, then what happens? We tend to internalize that, suppress it, get increasingly frustrated, resentful, hurt, lonely, and then usually it comes out sooner or later, but it might look more like a volcanic eruption than a regulated conversation. So when we have that kind of dynamic, it really erodes the emotional health of the relationship and the sense of trust and safety. There something I should say on this one is that sometimes that's anxiety driven on one side. So for anxiously attached people, for example, they may very much struggle to voice those things, not because it actually would blow up into a fight or that their partner would leave them, but there is so much fear and anxiety around being too much, around being a burden, around pushing people away.
0:05:51.25 → 0:06:56.02
A lot of that is kind of mindset stuff and wounding around those stories that it prevents them from ever trying, from ever actually putting that out there, from sort of a hypothetical worst case scenario or fear. So I think it's important, and this probably goes for all of the questions we'll be talking about to ask is this a real thing relationally, or is this predominantly or at least partly my own individual work to do, and it's probably going to be a combination of both. So irrespective of where it's coming from, if you don't feel like you can bring things to the relationship because you think there's going to be some sort of adverse consequence associated with that, that is really going to impede your emotional safety in connection with one another. Okay. The next question is, do you trust that when life gets challenging, you'll be able to tackle those challenges as a team?
0:06:56.63 → 0:07:44.58
Or do things that are hard tend to divide you and turn you into enemies or competitors? So the kinds of things that I'm thinking in this question might be one of you loses your job unexpectedly or you get a challenging health diagnosis, or you have to juggle caring for kids or aging parents or anything like that just the vicissitudes of life. The things that do get in the way, that do make life more stressful and unpredictable, do those things tend to unite or divide you? If they unite you and turn you into a team, brilliant. That's a really good sign for your emotional health, safety and connection in your relationship.
0:07:45.27 → 0:08:59.83
If those things tend to divide you, then that's probably a good sign that when you do get stressed, your tendency is to feel again, if we're going to talk about this through an attachment lens, on the anxious side, you probably feel emotionally abandoned in those moments like you're not getting enough support from your partner. And on the avoidance side, you probably have stories around when things get hard, my impulse, my instinct is to go it alone because that is what I know at my very core, that when things get hard, I turn a bit insular and I just try and tackle that on my own. So if that is your tendency overall in the relationship, that rather than coming together when things get hard, you tend to be divided and sort of in your own lanes, that's something to be aware of and maybe talk about saying, hey, I noticed that when things get hard, it really impacts our connectedness and our sense of collaboration in our relationship. Would you be open to working on that? What are some ways that we could be more supportive of one another when things get hard rather than siloing ourselves and then feeling really alone?
0:09:03.84 → 0:09:37.96
Because I think that that can be a really disconnected experience. Okay. The next question I want to offer you is when you have conflict, as all couples will, if you never have conflict, I would say that is more concerning to me than if you fight regularly, are you able? To safely repair? Or do you tend to have a big fight and then run out of steam and then have some sort of half assed Band Aid apology, sweep it under the rug and then kick it down the road until you have the same fight again?
0:09:39.29 → 0:09:53.91
This is a really good example of most, maybe not most, a lot of couples do this. So if that's you don't panic, don't feel, oh my God, my relationship is terrible. What am I going to do? Should I break up with my partner? No, we can learn these things.
0:09:53.95 → 0:10:23.35
This is skill based, but it is really important and it's an important skill to learn if you want to have a healthy, secure, lasting relationship. So what does safe repair look like? I could do a whole podcast episode on that, and I probably should, but it's things like, oh, okay, can we hear each other in conflict? Can we engage with what the other person is saying? Can we validate their perspective even when their experience of the situation is different to ours?
0:10:23.45 → 0:11:11.87
Can we negotiate and find a healthy middle ground that acknowledges and respects both of our perspectives and our needs? In this situation, are we able to substantively engage with the underlying issues that might have triggered a surface level rupture? So these sorts of conversations, are we able to actually stay in the discomfort of rupture and repair? Or do we just tend to have these big explosive fights and then we kind of run out of steam and don't do anything to actually solve or at least address the underlying concerns? Because I think, as I said, if we don't do that, we will continue to have the same fights.
0:11:11.95 → 0:11:24.77
They might be triggered by different things. So one time it might be, oh, you're home late from work. And the next time it might be, oh, you didn't do the washing up or whatever. Right. It might be the most mundane things and they might be different every time.
0:11:24.89 → 0:12:00.27
But the underlying emotional complaint will be the same until you engage with and address that emotional complaint and it's accompanying need. Okay, so the next question is on the whole, and that's an important introductory qualifier to this question, do you feel loved, cared for, respected, and listened to in the relationship? So this is really a foundational right to secure relationships. We all want to feel loved, seen, understood. I could add those in there cared for, respected, listened to.
0:12:00.47 → 0:12:35.77
That is really at the heart of healthy relationships, of secure relationships. The reason that on the whole is important is that you aren't going to feel all of those things in every moment of every day actively from your partner. But when we can zoom out and go, what is the overall feeling tone of this relationship? Do I feel loved and cared for? Do I trust that my partner loves me, cares for me, respects me, and will listen to me, sees me, understands me?
0:12:35.89 → 0:13:24.99
Those really are such foundational needs as humans that I think having that overall impression of your partner and your connection with them in the relationship is important. I think when we don't feel all of those things on balance again overall, then that's a sign that we either have some real work to do around that going, okay, what would I need to feel loved, cared for, respected, understood? What are the things that are preventing me from feeling that? And how can we take really actionable steps towards me feeling that? And if you're not feeling that, there's a good chance your partner is not feeling that either.
0:13:25.14 → 0:14:14.72
Because these things, I think oftentimes when we're not feeling any of those things, we might be withholding that from our partner, from a place of self protection. So getting really honest with ourselves and this is probably a harder question to be honest about, depending on where you fall. And then if we are committed to the relationship and we do really want to work on the relationship, taking this one pretty seriously because I think it's going to be hard to sustain a relationship in which you don't, generally speaking, feel loved, cared for, understood, respected, listened to, et cetera. Okay, last but not least, how does your nervous system feel in their company? You know, I love looking at and working with the nervous system and weaving that into an understanding of our emotional experience.
0:14:15.57 → 0:15:17.76
So I think that when our nervous system feels at ease, feels safe, feels regulated in their company, that they are a natural co regulator for us, meaning that our systems sort of soothe each other and are a signal of safety to one another. That's a really good sign because our nervous system, our autonomic nervous system is subcortical, meaning it sits below our thinking brain, our prefrontal cortex. And so underneath all of the analysis and all of the thinking and overthinking and ruminating that we can do, there is this fundamental question of how does my nervous system perceive this person? Now, again, some of this will be historical. Meaning if you have had difficult relationships in the past, if you have trauma, then there might be a lot of projection going on there.
0:15:17.81 → 0:16:10.90
You might feel relationships broadly are unsafe, and therefore your nervous system registers your partner as threatening or unsafe, even if that is not in fact the case. So the fact that your nervous system perceives your partner is threatening and you feel anxious or shut down in their company, that's not necessarily a sign that your partner is in fact dangerous. But I think it's a really good sign in terms of the emotional health of the relationship. If your nervous system feels at ease in their company and if it doesn't, again, it's not terminal. There's absolutely things that you can do both individually and relationally to work on that, to provide more evidence of safety so that your nervous system can settle and that you can reap the rewards of that beautiful nourishing co regulation that we all need.
0:16:11.59 → 0:16:33.64
Okay, so that was five questions to assess the emotional health of your relationship. I hope that that's been helpful. I'll just quickly recap those. The first one was do you feel safe in expressing how you're feeling, setting a boundary voicing needs, and giving feedback without worrying that it will blow up into a fight? Do you trust that when life gets challenging and throws unexpected things your way, you'll be able to tackle that as a team?
0:16:33.69 →0:17:00.83
Or do those things usually divide you and turn you into enemies or competitors? When conflict does occur, are you able to safely repair or do you usually sweep things under the rug and put a bandaid on them until the next time you have the same fight? On the whole, do you feel loved, cared for, respected, and listened to in the relationship? And does your nervous system feel at ease in their company? Okay, guys, I really hope that this has been helpful for you.
0:17:00.87 → 0:18:06.82
As I said, don't despair if you feel like you've got some work to do based on those guiding questions. This is kind of the whole point of this work, right? That a lot of us do have work to do there, and it is ongoing work, but it is really fruitful, worthwhile, rewarding work, and it is within reach for all of us if we're willing to put in the time and effort to make it so.
5 Reasons You Might Struggle to Apologise
In this episode, we're talking all about apologies - and specifically, why they might feel so hard sometimes. Being able to apologise is so fundamental to healthy repair, but for many of us, can feel inexplicably challenging. After listening to today's episode, my hope is that you'll have greater clarity around why apologies can feel so hard, and how to address the underlying resistance so you can foster greater connection and emotional maturity in your relationships.
In this episode, we're talking all about apologies - and specifically, why they might feel so hard sometimes.
Being able to apologise is so fundamental to healthy repair, but for many of us, can feel inexplicably challenging. After listening to today's episode, my hope is that you'll have greater clarity around why apologies can feel so hard, and how to address the underlying resistance so you can foster greater connection and emotional maturity in your relationships.
WHAT WE COVER:
why apologies can feel so hard
what to do when we feel unseen and misunderstood
the difference between intent and impact
how people-pleasing & perfectionism can hold us back from taking responsibility
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:27.61 → 0:00:59.13
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm going to be sharing with you five reasons why you might struggle apologising. I think that this is a really important conversation to have and a really important area of our relational patterns to bring more conscious awareness, too, because I know for a lot of people, myself included, that apologising can feel really hard sometimes. We can have a lot of resistance, a lot of reluctance, and it's something that's really interesting to reflect on.
0:00:59.25 → 0:01:29.07
What stories am I telling myself? What is preventing me from saying sorry, from taking responsibility, from apologising to someone who I may have heard or who may be upset with me? What's holding me back from doing that? What resistance am I experiencing and why? I think this is so important to have awareness around, because being able to safely repair after a disagreement, after conflict, is so fundamental to building healthy, secure relationships.
0:01:29.17 → 0:02:25.88
And this really applies irrespective of whether we're talking romantic relationships, friendships, colleagues, family, being able to have these conversations, these repair conversations in a mature, healthy way is really fundamental. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. Some of the reasons why that might feel hard, just so we can bring a little more conscious awareness to it and go to those conversations and be in those moments with a bit more self awareness, so that we're not just acting from fear, from woundedness, from defensiveness, which I think is a big thing when it comes to apologising. Before we dive into that, couple of quick announcements. The first being that I have created a new Instagram account for the podcast specifically, so if you look up On Attachment on Instagram, you can follow along.
0:02:25.93 → 0:02:53.81
I'm going to be sharing exclusive podcast content, so clips from the show and other podcast related things. So if you love the show, that would be a really great way for you to support me and also for you to get more content from the podcast via Instagram. So if you look up On Attachment, you'll be able to find it there. The second quick announcement is just to share the review of the week. I have to say, you guys have been leaving so many beautiful reviews.
0:02:54.39 → 0:03:15.86
I was really spoiled for choice when I was picking one out to read today, but today's one is finally someone that understands me. I stumbled across this podcast while searching for something else and man, did the stars align. Finally, I found someone who explains things in a way I can understand. Like, she's talking to me about me and she's half a world away. If you're looking to understand attachment.
0:03:15.92 → 0:03:32.12
This is a podcast for you. Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I really do appreciate it. And as I said, there are so many lovely reviews that have gone up in the past couple of weeks. I am so grateful and really very humbled to be helping so many of you with the podcast.
0:03:32.18 → 0:04:05.28
So even if I haven't read your review out, please know I have read it. I read every single one and I'm deeply appreciative. If that was your review that I just read out, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so with all of that out of the way, let's dive into five reasons why you might struggle apologising. I'm going to start with the more obvious and simple ones and then dig into some that are a little less obvious and where there's a little bit more to unpack.
0:04:05.39 → 0:04:56.79
So the first reason that you may struggle to apologise is that you feel misunderstood or like you haven't been heard. You feel like there's a deeper issue and you don't want to let go of the conversation, the opportunity to discuss what's going on. You feel like the conversation is unfinished because you haven't been heard, validated, understood. And so to apologise, to say, yes, I'm sorry, you might have some fear that that's going to herald the end of discussion and you're not ready for the discussion to end because you don't feel like you've had sufficient space and airtime to share what you're feeling and your perspective on the situation. So I think that for a lot of us, when we don't feel heard, we want to keep the conversation going.
0:04:56.83 → 0:05:27.54
And there's a broader point here. If you are someone who in conflict, tends to not want to wrap up, and this is probably more for my anxious people, a common complaint from avoided partners is, oh, you just want to keep talking and talking and talking about it. You never just let it go. And that usually signals that you do not feel like you have been understood or heard. And so you just want to keep dragging it out, or you want to keep raising new issues or reopening issues that you've already talked about.
0:05:27.67 → 0:06:06.06
You don't feel like there's a resolution. And so if you notice yourself struggling to apologise, struggling to get to the resolution and kind of wrap up the conversation that you're having, then it may be that you don't feel like you've been heard or understood. So reflect on that. And if that is the case, if you feel like you haven't been heard or understood, what would you need in order to feel heard or understood? And maybe that's saying to someone, I feel resistant to apologising or I feel reluctant to apologise because I'm not sure you're really understanding what I'm saying.
0:06:06.24 → 0:06:42.79
And asking whatever it is that you need in order to feel understood. Okay? The next reason that you might struggle with apologising is that you are focusing on intention rather than impact, meaning you're focusing on what you meant or what you intended or didn't intend, rather than the impact that your words, actions, omissions had on the other person. So I think this is a really big one and one that a lot of us, most of us are probably guilty of. It's like, no, but I didn't mean that.
0:06:42.91 → 0:07:23.45
Therefore I'm not going to apologise for it because it wasn't my intention, I didn't mean to upset you, I didn't mean to disappoint you, I didn't mean to frustrate you. Therefore, even if it had that impact, why should I have to apologise for it? Okay? And while this is very it can be really frustrating when you're in that experience and you feel like someone has taken an innocent intention and is then sending it back at you and telling you that you hurt them. Or you upset them or they're angry with you and you can kind of feel like your behaviour has been hijacked or taken out of your hands and turned into something that you never intended.
0:07:23.79 → 0:07:56.45
Healthy, mature relationships require that we can separate ourselves from that a little and be mature enough to go, wow, that wasn't my intention, but I'm really, really sorry that it had that impact. Right? Because as soon as you start arguing with them on that, you are denying what their experience was and it's very invalidating to the other person's experience when you say, I didn't mean it, therefore your experience of it or your emotional response is invalid. And I'm not going to apologise that I shouldn't have to. Okay?
0:07:56.60 → 0:08:21.25
So I think as hard as this one can be, if you can hold both, I didn't mean it. And it had that impact anyway, and I'm going to take you at your word on that and I'm going to apologise, because I obviously didn't want for it to have that impact, and I'm sorry that it did, rather than I didn't want it to have that impact. Therefore, that impact doesn't exist. And it's all in your head. Right, or I shouldn't have to apologise for it because that's a you problem.
0:08:21.42 → 0:08:48.17
I think that healthy relationships require that we care about how our behaviour impacts someone else. Even if that wasn't our intention. And frankly, especially if that wasn't our intention. Because we need to have more awareness around things that might be inadvertently causing tension or rupture in our relationship when that wasn't our intention, so that next time we can have more awareness around it and hopefully do something differently. Okay?
0:08:48.31 → 0:09:39.99
So that one is we want to validate and apologise for the impact, even if especially if that wasn't our intention. And that doesn't mean to apologise for the impact doesn't change the intention, so it doesn't mean that you are acknowledging or owning up to ill intent. Okay, the next reason that you might struggle apologising is this is one that I really used to struggle with in a previous relationship. You feel that the other person has more to apologise for, so it feels unfair for you to be the one apologising, even if the issue at hand might warrant an apology from you. You might feel that there's an overall imbalance and so there's this sentiment of you want me to apologise when you do Abcde and F things and you never apologise.
0:09:40.41 → 0:10:28.72
So if you notice that kind of response coming up and as I said, I can really relate to this one. In a previous relationship, when my partner would say, raise something that he was unhappy with, that I had done, and I had such a long shopping list of things that frustrated me, angered me, unmet needs, all of those things. And so I would get really righteous and indignant when he would expect me to apologise for anything. Even if, as I said, an apology was warranted on my part, I would use that as an opportunity to come back at him with this barrage of all of the things that he did continuously that I thought were far more worthy of apology and that hadn't been adequately addressed. So that might be a factor.
0:10:28.86 → 0:11:16.55
If you notice this big resistance and this kind of righteous, indignant thing of you want me to apologise, I think we need to look at that and go, okay, what's really going on here? I think in terms of what we do with that, if we've made a mistake, if we've hurt someone, if we've slipped up, then being responsible means owning that. And I think that we don't want to start point scoring and being competitive about who's more bad. When you notice yourself going to that kind of pattern in your relationship, that is the problem. The fact that you're in that mindset of competitiveness and point scoring, that's really the issue, not whatever the substantive issue is in the moment that's raised the discussion.
0:11:16.89 → 0:12:15.16
So I think that you need to recognise that if that's the pattern, and find a way to talk about all of the other things that you're harbouring resentment around so that you can address the underlying issue and not get stuck in this point scoring, angry, bitter kind of energy in your relationship. Because it really just locks connection and really impede your ability to repair and move forward on anything. Okay, the next reason that you might find it hard to apologise is that you might find it hard to validate and affirm that someone could have a good reason to be upset with you. So this one, I think, is for my people, pleasers. And I think if you are someone who really notices a people pleasing streak and that you try very hard to keep everybody happy, this is probably more an anxious attachment thing.
0:12:15.85 → 0:13:03.37
If you're constantly working in overdrive to keep everyone happy, to please everyone and to meet everyone else's needs, to keep everything peaceful and stable and someone's upset with you, then it can feel like this really personal failure. And so if that's where you're coming from, then it might feel safer to try and persuade them of why they're mistaken, why they're wrong, why they don't have valid reason to be upset with you, rather than owning that you were imperfect. Right. I think another way that I could frame this one is you really try to be perfect in your relationships. You rely on being perfect and you don't know how to hold the ebbs and flow of relationships.
0:13:03.55 → 0:14:01.40
So you can't actually tolerate the idea that someone could be validly upset with you and still love you. And so rather than owning that and recognising it and validating it and coming up with a solution, you become quite defensive and you go into overdrive trying to restore your image in their eyes rather than engaging with the legitimacy of their concern. The final reason that you might struggle with apologising, and this is sort of an umbrella one, is that you may just never have had safe experiences with rupture and repair. So if you grew up in a family system where there was no conflict or everything was like a cold war, nothing ever got talked about, everything was always swept under the rug. And you may have never seen apologies, you may have never given them, you may have never been on the receiving end of them, you may have never had them modelled for you.
0:14:01.53 → 0:14:50.43
On the contrary, you might have had a very high conflict environment. But then when everything was over, the dust settled and there was no actual substantive repair, it just kind of fizzled out and went back to business as usual. There's lots of different ways that this can show up, but I think for a lot of people, they haven't had positive modelling around what it means to have relational ruptures and then safely repair and come back together stronger. So I think if you have a lot of fear around conflict for that reason, then you don't really trust that that's all part of the process of healthy relationships. And so you're just in a fear state anytime you're in any sort of conflict, because you just don't trust that that can happen safely.
0:14:50.53 → 0:15:54.21
And when we're in a fear state, our ability to connect empathically and apologise is really impeded because we're automatically going to be in a threatened state and defensiveness and counterattack comes very naturally when we're in that state. So if we don't have an embodied experience of safe connection through rupture and repair, then we just might not trust in the safety of the overall experience and we might be very guarded and defensive when we're having those conversations as a result. Okay, so that was five reasons why you might struggle with Apologising in your relationships. I hope that that has given you some food for thought, given you something to reflect on, and maybe will allow you to approach Apologising and the repair conversation with a little more self awareness and emotional maturity the next time you find yourself in that situation. If you enjoyed this episode, as always, I'd be super appreciative.
0:15:54.26 → 0:16:09.79
If you could leave a five star rating, leave a review. If you're on Apple podcasts or elsewhere, we are able to leave a review. It really does help so much in getting the word out and I appreciate it so much. I really do appreciate your support. Thanks so much for joining me, guys.
0:16:09.83 → 0:16:12.10
I will see you again later this week.
0:16:14.47 → 0:16:36.50
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review on a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
"How do I navigate the tendency to lose myself in a long-term relationship as anxiously attached person?"
In this week's Q&A episode, I'm answering a community question about the (very common) tendency to lose oneself as an anxiously attached person in relationships. I'll talk through why this happens so often and easily, and what you can do to counter it.
In this week's Q&A episode, I'm answering a community question about the (very common) tendency to lose oneself as an anxiously attached person in relationships.
I'll talk through why this happens so often and easily, and what you can do to counter it.
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Sign up for my signature 8-week course Healing Anxious Attachment
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:27.77 → 0:01:03.59 - TRANSCRIPT NEEDED
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's episode is five tips for rebuilding after a long term relationship. So this was a topic that was requested by my Instagram community, and it's one that I know a lot of people struggle with, and certainly I've struggled with myself. I think that long term relationships ending can be very destabilising, and it's certainly a time and an experience when we can feel really filled with doubt and inner conflict and confusion and mixed feelings.
0:01:03.77 → 0:01:55.58
And so I'm hoping that today's episode will give you some clarity, some guiding principles, some tools, and some mindset shifts to navigate that process with greater self trust and greater trust in the process itself, which I think is really what it comes down to. I should also say that even though I will be speaking more so in the context of a long term relationship, all of the tips I'm going to share would equally apply to any breakup or ending. So if you've just come out of a relationship that wasn't long term, that was only a couple of months and you're still really feeling it and still having a hard time, rest assured that you can apply and adapt, if need be. The tools and the advice that I'm going to be sharing today. Before I dive into that, I just wanted to share a couple of quick announcements.
0:01:55.64 → 0:02:18.94
The first being that I am holding a flash sale on my Master classes and my Higher Love course. It's 50% off, which is the biggest discount I've ever given on those. And you can get any of my Master classes. So better boundaries, which is all about boundaries, go figure how to navigate anxious, avoidant relationships and sex and attachments. So those are the three Master classes.
0:02:18.97 → 0:02:35.35
They're about 2 hours each. And my Higher Love course is a breakup course. And that's six modules. Fully self paced, self study, so you get instant access to all of it when you sign up. So you can use the code Love you loveyou at checkout to access that discount.
0:02:35.40 → 0:03:01.63
And I'll link all of that in the show notes. The second quick announcement is just to share the featured review, which is I stumbled across this show by accident a few months ago and I'm so glad I did. The podcast has helped me understand my own attachment style, and the sense of relief I now feel is massive. I finally know why I feel anxious and most importantly, what I need to do to become more secure. In fact, I've already started on this journey via the podcast and I've never before felt such a sense of calm.
0:03:01.68 → 0:03:27.15
I can finally relax. I'm looking forward to continuing this journey with Stephanie's podcast at the centre. Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I really love hearing that and it brings a big smile to my face. I think that your experience really speaks to the fact that so often what we need is just to be told you make sense, your experience makes sense, you're not crazy, you're not defective, you're not broken.
0:03:27.81 → 0:03:57.75
And understanding like, oh, other people are like me. And I feel understood and I feel like there's an explanation for all of this and there's a path forward. I think that in and of itself, before you even start taking those steps forward, is incredibly, as you say, relieving and calming to the system. So I'm so glad that that's been your experience. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierig.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of those master classes that I mentioned earlier.
0:03:58.49 → 0:04:42.42
Okay, so let's dive into these five tips for rebuilding after a long term relationship ends. The first tip that I want to offer you is allow yourself the time and space to grieve however you need to. I think collectively we're pretty uncomfortable with grief, whether that's grief after death or after any other ending. And I think it's really important to understand that the grieving process after a breakup is really biologically akin to any other type of grief. Obviously it can show up in different ways and circumstances will influence that, but it can take you through emotionally the same kind of process.
0:04:42.55 → 0:05:38.83
And so I think we need to approach it and honour it as such. What that means in Practise is allowing yourself to feel those feelings. Granted, you may not be able to take three months off work to stay in your pyjamas and cry all day, and that's certainly not what I'd be encouraging you to do anyway, but allowing yourself the time and space to be with whatever emotions are arising, and oftentimes those emotions will be conflicting. And so preparing yourself for that without making it mean more than it does. So it is perfectly normal to feel doubt, confusion, second guessing whether it was the right thing to do, longing for that person, wanting to reach out to them, rehashing everything that happened, anxiety, confusion, all of these things are completely normal, expected parts of the breakup experience and that grieving process.
0:05:38.92 → 0:06:20.63
And that's true irrespective of whether the relationship was healthy or unhealthy, whether the breakup was a long time coming or happened quite suddenly, we're going to go through some sort of grieving process and that's likely to come in waves. It's unlikely to be linear. And so I think the more we can go into that experience, expecting it, expecting it to be emotionally dense and turbulent, expecting it to come in waves, the less likely we are to take that experience and make it mean something. Because this is where I see people get stuck every single time we go, oh my God, I missed them so much. This cannot be the right decision.
0:06:20.97 → 0:06:47.55
If this were the right decision, there's no way that I would miss them this much or we're both so upset. Doesn't that mean that we should be trying to make it work? Maybe, but also probably not. If I'm being really honest, I think I have another episode on questions to ask before getting back together with someone that you can scroll back and find. But what I always say as a starting point is if it's just missing them, then that's not enough.
0:06:47.62 → 0:07:34.41
That's not enough of a reason to go back or to take any action with those feelings. Because missing someone is a completely normal, predictable response to a long term relationship ending. Again, any relationship ending, but especially a long term one. Because when you've been with someone for a long time, there is inherently a level of comfort and stability and predictability that you get from that relationship. Even if that relationship is dysfunctional and unhealthy and not working, that's still an anchor point in your life, that you come to navigate the world via all of your daily routines and habits and what you do, how you move about the world is influenced and shaped by the relationship.
0:07:34.61 → 0:07:56.83
So when that gets taken out, you're going to feel the lack of it, you're going to feel the void and that is going to be uncomfortable. So again, being really realistic with our expectations so that we can go, okay, I really miss them. I feel really knocked off centre here. I want to reach out to them. I feel lonely, I feel sad going, yeah, okay, of course I do.
0:07:56.87 → 0:08:07.87
Of course I feel those things. That makes perfect sense. That's part of the process. Okay? It's like if you injured yourself and you felt pain, you would expect to feel pain because that's part of the process.
0:08:08.04 → 0:08:46.41
That's what's going on here. And we need to allow ourselves to feel that without frantically trying to fix or solve or make it go away. So the first one there is allow yourself to grieve without making it mean more than it does or getting stuck in the stories that can spring from those big emotions. The next one that I want to offer you is to really lean on your support people here and that will look different for everyone. But whether that's close friends who you really trust, therapist or other professional that you see family members, it's really important for a couple of reasons.
0:08:46.46 → 0:09:34.26
I think there can be a temptation to isolate ourselves again if we're not comfortable with all of the big emotions and particularly if you're someone who has a bit of a tendency to not want to burden people with your stuff. If you're used to being the support person to others, you're used to playing the carer role, then it might be really uncomfortable for the shoe to be on the other foot, for you to be in need of that support when you're so accustomed to saying, I'm fine, don't worry about me. But the reality is you do need support in this period because, again, one of the key people in your life has been taken away and they are no longer in the picture. And so you're going to need to diversify where you would usually get that support from. So don't be afraid to ask for help, to ask for support.
0:09:35.11 → 0:10:26.71
The other key piece in this one is from a nervous system point of view, you need active and regular reminders that people in relationships are good and safe and positive, that you are loved, that you can be held by other people and supported, that you can be cared for. That's very nourishing to your system and will really counter any other stories you might have around the unsafety of being alone. Again, this is particularly for people who do struggle with being alone. So people who tend more towards anxious attachment, you may have quite a lot of visceral fear around the aloneness that comes with a breakup. And so countering that by going, okay, actually, as much as my fear stories in my body want to tell me that I'm alone, and that's terrifying, I'm not alone.
0:10:26.81 → 0:10:52.54
I've got all these people around me who care about me, who are invested in my well being, who I can lean on and be held by. And so maybe as much as my body wants to tell me that this is really unsafe and we need to do something about it, which might mean reaching out to your ex and trying to backpedal on everything, no, it's okay. I have other options. I have other support people. Here they are, and I'm going to be okay.
0:10:52.59 → 0:11:30.22
I can resource myself to get through this period in a way that is grounded, that is supported, and I don't need to go into a really fear based state, even more so than I might already be, by isolating myself. Okay, the third tip that I want to give you is see this period as an opportunity to spring clean your life. So this will start to come in a little bit further down the track. I don't expect you on day three, after the breakup to start reinventing yourself. And to be clear, you don't ever have to reinvent yourself.
0:11:30.67 → 0:11:54.51
There's nothing wrong with you, right? But I think that it can be really nice and can give you a sense of renewal and agency over the story and your role in it to go. Okay. This is an opportunity right. To see it as a fresh start as a new chapter, as a new beginning.
0:11:54.59 → 0:12:17.63
And to step into that in a really empowered, deliberate way, rather than floating around rutterless going, oh, my God. How has this happened? I'm alone. I can't live without them, what am I ever going to do? Obviously that's not a very empowered story and doesn't really allow you to get intentional about what you want your life to look like in this next chapter and beyond.
0:12:17.73 → 0:12:56.14
So see it as an opportunity to sprinkle in your life, to rediscover yourself again, particularly if you are someone who tends more towards anxious attachment or you otherwise know that you tend to really lose yourself in a relationship, so you tend to sort of become subsumed to the relationship container. This is a really great opportunity to carve out, like, who am I? What do I like? What would my ideal be if I weren't always thinking about someone else and what they like and what they're comfortable with? How do I want my space to look?
0:12:56.24 → 0:13:08.59
What do I like to do with my free time? What food do I like to eat? What shows do I like to watch? What do I want to spend my weekends doing right? When we're so accustomed to factoring in someone else?
0:13:08.68 → 0:13:49.27
And potentially, if that's your tendency to defer to what their preference is, we can lose sight of that. And so this is actually a really, really beautiful opportunity for you to make it about you for once. So relish in that opportunity, relish in the freedom that this period can afford you. So don't waste that or lose sight of it, or be so distracted by the hard parts of the experience that you aren't noticing all of the positives. The next tip that I want to offer you is become the most fully expressed version of yourself that you can.
0:13:49.34 → 0:14:21.71
So this is kind of in a similar vein to the previous one, but become more of yourself. So if the previous one was around, kind of revamping your surroundings and your routines and all of that to suit you, this one's about becoming more of you. So doing things that once would have scared you or doing things that you never thought that you could or that you've always wanted to, but you thought, no, I couldn't do that, right? Maybe you could, right? Challenge yourself.
0:14:21.86 → 0:14:51.56
Learn to overcome those fears or nerves or embarrassment or shame or any of those other things that have held you back from doing things that you've always been curious about or interested in. Right? So again, it's kind of easy and it's not a bad thing. I think it's just true, right, that it's easy to get lazy and really comfortable and cosy in a long term relationship. I think that a lot of us who are in long term relationships can relate to that, right?
0:14:51.69 → 0:15:41.25
That it's easy to get a bit complacent around the way we spend our time. So see this period as an invitation, a permission slip to really broaden your horizons and live a little. So whether that's like taking up a new hobby, going to cooking classes, or challenging yourself physically, starting to work with a personal trainer or taking up a new sport or starting running or something that you've previously thought wasn't like you or you didn't have time for or would be too hard. I think all of those things can be really powerful in building up your self worth, your sense of self and your self confidence as you enter into this next chapter. So reflect on what would be the things.
0:15:41.34 → 0:16:16.68
Maybe it's just one or two things at the moment. How could I infuse some newness or stretch my comfort zone a little so that I'm becoming more of who I am and particularly in ways that I felt I couldn't when I was in a relationship? So stretch out that comfort zone, okay? And the last tip that I want to give you is when it comes time to date, and that might not be for a while, so please don't expect yourself to be back out there in a month, particularly if it's a long term relationship and there's a lot of processing to do. There is absolutely no rush here.
0:16:17.61 → 0:16:56.58
Expect to relapse, for want of a better term. So you might be feeling like super upbeat and positive and excited to get back out into the dating world and then maybe you download one of the apps and you feel really deflated and defeated and hopeless all of a sudden. Or you go on a couple of dates and it's underwhelming. Okay? Expect that it's going to be a bit of a process and don't expect to find your soulmate or the next person you're going to be in a long term relationship with on your first date or your first interaction on an app.
0:16:56.70 → 0:17:29.80
You need to be kind of bracing yourself for the process of dating, being hit and miss and being trial and error, and go into that with an open mind, with good humour. And again, try and see it as an opportunity rather than this drudgery, this frustrating thing that you reluctantly have to do in order to meet someone. Try and enjoy the process as much as possible. Try and approach it with a mindset of, oh, look at all these people that I get to meet. What a great opportunity.
0:17:29.93 → 0:18:02.72
That's all it has to be, right? And when I say expect to relapse, what I mean is expect to be reminded of your ex in ways that you might not have been in the intervening period. So I think it's really normal and natural to have felt like you were over them. And then you go on a date with someone and they have a trait that annoys you and you're like, oh, my ex would never have done that. We always used to laugh at people who did that or dressed like that or said things like that or liked that thing.
0:18:02.90 → 0:18:26.19
I miss them. Or you might just miss how comfortable and easeful it felt with your ex. Whereas with all these new people. You're starting from scratch and it feels difficult, and you don't know each other yet, and it's a bit awkward, and so you really just miss and crave the comfort of the comfy pair of jeans that you've worn in rather than the stiff new ones. It's really normal to feel that way.
0:18:26.26 → 0:18:53.15
And again, try not to make too much meaning out of it. Comparing new people with old people is a completely normal thing to do, so don't then go. Maybe that means that my ex is actually the right person for me. Stay the course, stick with the process, trust in the process, and know that you'll get more comfortable with it. And as time goes by, you'll get to know new people, and what starts as being a little bit awkward and uncomfortable will slowly become more comfortable.
0:18:53.20 → 0:19:17.64
Right? There was a time where you didn't know your ex and you were in that same place with them. So just allow things to blossom and grow rather than writing them off straight out of the gate from a place of comparison or fear or anxiety or whatever else might be driving that response in you. Okay, so those were five tips for rebuilding after a long term relationship ends. I hope that that has been helpful.
0:19:17.78 → 0:19:55.55
I did try to give you a bit of a spectrum there of advice ranging from very early in the process, post breakup, to that kind of midway point where you're starting to emerge from the darkness and rebuild and then ultimately going towards potentially dating again. So I hope that that's given you a lot to work with, no matter where you are in that process. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful, as always, if you could leave a five star rating or a review. If you're listening on Apple podcasts. It really does help so much, and I'm deeply, deeply appreciative of all of you who have been taking the time to do that recently.
0:19:55.65 → 0:20:16.62
It's very touching and humbling to me. Thanks so much for joining me, guys. I will see you again later in the week. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierig.com.
0:20:16.75 → 0:20:26.28
And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review on a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to to see you again soon.