The Path to Healing Anxious Attachment
Are you constantly seeking reassurance and security from your partner? You're not alone. Many of us who experience anxious attachment find it challenging to self-regulate and often lean on our partners for a sense of safety. This episode is all about helping you understand and navigate this complex, emotional landscape. We'll discuss the importance of self-regulation and explore the fear of destabilisation and the need to control what is happening outside of us to feel safe. You'll learn how the process of co-regulation can help build your capacity to self-regulate and why it's crucial to trust yourself above all.
Are you constantly seeking reassurance and security from your partner? You're not alone. Many of us who experience anxious attachment find it challenging to self-regulate and often lean on our partners for a sense of safety. This episode is all about helping you understand and navigate this complex, emotional landscape. We'll discuss the importance of self-regulation and explore the fear of destabilisation and the need to control what is happening outside of us to feel safe. You'll learn how the process of co-regulation can help build your capacity to self-regulate and why it's crucial to trust yourself above all.
But, there's more to it than learning self-regulation skills. We'll also delve deep into the core beliefs that drive anxious attachment. We'll discuss how addressing these stories and wounds can liberate us from the fear of abandonment and feelings of unworthiness. You'll discover how to separate your worth from the behaviour of others and break free from these old stories. We'll also focus on building self-worth and enhancing internal security - two crucial pillars in this healing journey.
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Join My Signature Program, Healing Anxious Attachment
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
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Episode Transcript
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You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, we are talking all about the path to healing anxious attachment.
0:00:35.39 → 0:01:24.31
So this is partly in celebration of the fact that my signature course, Healing Anxious Attachment, is reopening for enrollment tomorrow for the fifth time, but also because I know that a big chunk of my listeners are anxiously attached folks, and I know that many people are on some form of healing journey, whatever that looks like. And wherever you might be in that process, I've actually done a couple of episodes. Previously on a similar topic to today. One of them was the three stages of healing anxious attachment, and another how to heal your anxious attachment. And those two are by far and away the most ever downloaded episodes of the podcast, so clearly there is a demand for this conversation.
0:01:24.89 → 0:02:56.96
With that being said, I think it's been maybe seven or eight months since I've last broached this topic, so I thought that it was high time I revisited it. Particularly, as I said, in advance of tomorrow's programme launch, but also because, to be very frank, my own thoughts, feelings, opinions, perspectives on this are always growing and evolving. And so today I wanted to talk to you about what the different pillars of that healing journey involve, at least insofar as my experience goes personally, and also the methodology that I teach to my clients and students, and also offering some mindset shifts on this whole idea of healing that we can get really lost in. I think that it's such a beautiful thing to be on a healing journey and to gift ourselves that desire and that process of tending to our wounded parts and unburdening ourselves and growing and evolving and finding a more peaceful and easeful way of being within ourselves and in our relationships. And at the same time, I am acutely aware of the proliferation of products and commercialization and all of that around this healing industry in a way that I think can lead us to feel like we always have to.
0:02:56.98 → 0:04:30.53
Be doing more and more and that we're never far along enough and that it's meant to be linear and neat and achievement driven and on some sort of defined timeline. And so I suppose I want to offer some thoughts on that with a view to ensuring that anyone who does consider themselves to be on some sort of journey of healing and growth, that we're doing that in a way that feels genuinely loving towards ourselves and caring and kind and self compassionate rather than coming from a place of shame and rigidity and perfectionism and needing ourselves to be other than as we are and where we are. Which I think can certainly be the tendency to see ourselves as something broken that needs fixing, as a problem to be solved, as not enough, as inadequate, as unworthy. And I think that the more we are approaching our growth from that place of self rejection and shame and wrongness, there's a really good chance that we are going to stay exactly where we are, if not to regress or to find ourselves even further entrenched in whatever patterns we find ourselves in. Because shame tends not to be very fertile in terms of what we need in order to really grow.
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I think that curiosity, self compassion, having a really inquisitive mindset towards ourselves, making space for all of our parts and all of our fears and emotions, pulling up a seat at the table and welcoming all of those parts. And seeking to understand and trusting that from that space we can really find a level of wholeness and integration that is very liberating. Rather than needing to exile parts of us or shut down parts of us that we consider to be wrong or unacceptable or inconvenient. So that's what I'm going to be talking about today. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements.
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As I flagged, and as you will have heard me speak about recently, my signature programme, Healing Anxious Attachment, is reopening tomorrow for enrollment. It will be the fifth cohort over a thousand students have been through this programme in the last year and a bit since I launched it. It is my pride and joy and I am really, really looking forward to welcoming the next cohort of students. You may have also heard me announce last week that for the first time ever, I'm running a live group coaching programme as an optional upgrade to the course. So the course in its classic version is largely self paced, so you're getting eight modules of video lessons, workbooks journal prompts, guided meditations, and it really is very comprehensive.
0:06:11.99 → 0:06:52.68
I have delivered it in that way because I think that it's hard to coordinate time zones, frankly, when you've got people all over the world joining. That's a logistical reason. But also I think the nature of the content is such that everyone will go through it at a different pace and in their own time might revisit it. And so I think delivering the whole course via live calls is typically not the best thing for the majority. But with that being said, I'm also very aware that some people do desire and value that live component and the ability to get direct feedback and coaching and advice from me as they work through the programme, and also a community component.
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So that's what's available in this live experience. Group coaching upgrade to the course that you'll get 690 minutes calls with me over an eight week period, as well as an online community group for you to connect with the other people, and that will be capped at 30 places to keep it nice and intimate. So if you're interested in either of those two options the Course in its classic iteration, or the live group coaching upgrade, which also includes the Course materials jump on the waitlist via the link in the show notes, or you can head directly to my website. And doors will open tomorrow, so you'll get an email when it's time. Second quick announcements just to share the featured review, which is Stephanie's podcast has been a huge help to me in understanding myself and how I show up in relationships.
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I appreciate her compassion and unflagging reminders to stay curious and have made some real internal shifts after implementing her advice over the last few months. Thank you for your work. We're all lucky to have found you. Thank you for that beautiful review. I really appreciate the kind words and I'm glad to hear that you've made some shifts as a result of listening to the podcasts and reflecting and implementing some of those things.
0:08:04.78 → 0:08:42.86
So I'm glad to hear that. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my masterclasses. Okay, let's talk about the path to healing anxious attachment. So the first key pillar on this journey learning to self regulate. You will have heard me speak previously on the podcast, if you're a longtime listener, about the fact that for most anxiously attached people, it is very, very hard to self soothe, to self regulate, to self source a sense of safety.
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We tend to derive our sense of being okay in the world from our partner and from whatever is going on in our relationship. So if we're okay, I'm okay. If you are happy, I am happy. But if you're not, and if we're not okay, I'm not okay, right? And while it is totally normal and natural to be affected by whatever's going on in your relationship, it's not to say that secure people have this impenetrable armour whereby they're completely fine no matter whatever's going on in their relationship.
0:09:18.46 → 0:09:50.87
The anxious person, it does tend to be taken to extremes whereby we can go into this state of absolute panic and meltdown for something that is really disproportionate, to be frank, right? So your partner might be slightly irritable and snap at you when you're in the car driving somewhere, and rather than going, oh, okay, they're in a bad mood, we might internalise that and go, Why would they be angry at me? I didn't do anything wrong. Why are they upset? Are they always going to be like this?
0:09:50.94 → 0:10:36.75
When are they going to apologise? Are they going to apologise? Do they think they can just treat me like this? Spiralling into all of these very anxious thoughts which can then feed on themselves, and you can find yourself in this place of urgent panic, needing to fix it and feeling really dysregulated and thrown off centre in a way that just doesn't really match what's going on. So I think that from that place we can find ourselves very much at the mercy of whatever is going on outside of us in determining our well being in a way that is quite destabilising and quite vulnerable and not necessarily in a good way.
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Right. It means that we are not able to provide ourselves with a strong foundation of resilience and being able to trust that I will be okay. Whatever happens, I'll be okay. I can support myself through it and I can hold myself through it because our experience is I won't be okay. And so instead of learning to build that capacity within ourselves, what most of us have done is learn how to try and control what is going on outside of us, right?
0:11:08.20 → 0:12:13.25
Because if what's going on outside of me is determinant of whether or not I feel okay inside of me, the answer is to try and control all of that stuff to make sure that I'm okay. And so that's where our behaviours like hyper vigilance and monitoring everything very closely and controlling and testing and tiptoeing and micromanaging and people pleasing, we can see that those are all expressions of this fundamental fear of I need. To make sure that everything around me is such that I don't feel destabilised, that I don't feel unsafe because I am like a sponge for everything else. And I don't have this internal ability to self regulate and to be my own power source such that I've got some backup. If my partner's in a bad mood, I can turn inwards or I can turn elsewhere rather than orbiting around that and urgently needing to fix it.
0:12:13.37 → 0:13:15.73
And really it's important to understand that your maybe underdeveloped capacity to self regulate is a good way to put it, is not because you are defective or broken or less evolved. It is simply because that's something that when we're all born, no one has the ability to self regulate. Babies are utterly dependent on caregivers to help them via this process of co regulation to develop that capacity, because babies are very much vulnerable and at the mercy of what's going on around them. But for the anxiously attached person, typically that wasn't nurtured enough, consistently enough for that ability to self regulate to properly develop. And so we have this response of hyperactivating in the event that there's any threat to the relationship, because we've learned to derive our safety from the other person exclusively.
0:13:15.86 → 0:14:03.94
And so to the extent that we feel them pulling away or we feel any threat to that tether between us, our response is going to be very hyperactivated, mobilised, intense. I've got to do whatever I can to restore the connection rather than finding it within ourselves to go, okay, that's not going to work. As my current source of safety, I'll go to one of my other sources. So a really big part of this process of healing anxious attachment is learning to find that backup power source. And if anything, letting that be a primary source of safety for you, so that you can then go to relationships from a really balanced, grounded, self assured place of I am choosing this because I love you and I care about you and I'm investing in this relationship.
0:14:04.12 → 0:14:44.61
But it is not me coming to the relationship treating you. As a lifeline and desperately needing you to rescue me because I am so terrified of being disconnected from you or being on my own. And that is even if it's not literal and conscious and front of mind, often that is the energy that we are coming to relationships with when we don't have that capacity to self soothe and self regulate. So a big part of that is understanding how your nervous system works. And again, you will have heard me speak about this on the podcast before I had a guest interview with Sarah Baldwin who is an expert in this.
0:14:44.73 → 0:15:53.83
Also teach a whole module on it in healing anxious attachment. It's consistently everyone's favourite because I think it's the thing that everyone comes to and goes wow, I never knew any of this, right? You might have heard some other stuff about communication or boundaries or healing our core wounds but really the nervous system stuff is like brand new information for a lot of people and it is absolutely a paradigm shift and incredibly, I hesitate to say life changing but I think it really is. It certainly has been for me and that's how a lot of other people describe it because it's like oh all of a sudden I empower myself with tools to be okay no matter what happens, right? All of a sudden we don't have to move through life trying to avoid triggers or trying to avoid challenge or upset or conflict or rejection or abandonment or any of these other experiences that of course are painful and we don't want to go and seek them out.
0:15:53.87 → 0:16:56.59
But we also don't have to shape our whole lives around trying to avoid them because we do not believe in our capacity to navigate them if they were to arise. So learning to self regulate, learning to be your own sense of safety first and foremost is such an important skill and such an important piece in the puzzle if you really want to shift these patterns. So the next pillar that I want to speak to is self worth and healing of those core wounds of unworthiness and inadequacy and that fear of abandonment that runs so deep for anxiously attached people. So if we could think of the self regulation piece as being the body and the nervous system, this is where we start to look at the attachment wounds and this is really where some of those beliefs of I'm not good enough no one will ever love me as much as I will love them. People are always going to leave me.
0:16:56.63 → 0:17:32.20
I can never trust in love, I can never trust that people will stay. I'm always waiting for something bad to happen. All of this more cerebral stuff that again might not be front of mind, it might not be the script that you're running in a very conscious way. But oftentimes when we trace down through our fears and the stories that we tell ourselves, eventually we wind up at these beliefs. I have to make sure that everyone's happy with me.
0:17:32.25 → 0:18:35.66
I can't possibly put anyone out because then they won't like me and if they don't like me, then I'll be alone. Or as soon as we work our way down the chain, we start to see that these beliefs run fairly rampant and tend to be baked in with a lot of shame and a lot of fear and tending to these and really reprogramming some of these old beliefs that are no longer helping us, that were probably never ours to begin with and most likely took root at a time in our lives when we didn't have enough context and understanding for what was going on around us. And we internalised whatever environment we were in as being our fault or a comment on us and our worth tending to. These wounds grieving all of the emotion that's there and what it's cost us to live from this wounded place. That's a very very important piece of the puzzle as well.
0:18:35.76 → 0:19:32.29
And you can think of that as being almost like as we start to decouple these core beliefs from our emotional experience and we start to go, oh, okay, someone else's behaviour doesn't have to mean this about me. We sort of slowly break that automatic story and tether that we've created in our minds again, most of the time subconsciously. But once we can sever that and infuse or inject all of these other possibilities of okay, that's one possibility. What are the 500 other possibilities for why this person didn't call me back or why this person isn't available to be in the relationship with me or doesn't have the capacity or whatever, right? There are a million different ways that this can show up.
0:19:32.44 → 0:20:31.17
But having that distance and having enough self worth that we can go I don't need to strive to try and convince someone to show up for me. I don't need to convince people, I don't need to tiptoe around someone else. I don't need to shrink and become very very small and easy and low maintenance in order to be lovable. I don't need to micromanage everyone around me and their emotions to make sure that everything's okay and that they're happy with me because I get my worth from being helpful, right? All of these things are various expressions of these wounded parts and these core beliefs so tending to those and that is a longer term process, right, of understanding those links and connecting those dots and turning towards those stories and seeking to understand again, where did this come from?
0:20:31.21 → 0:21:07.01
Where did I learn this? And really being with those? And as I said, there's a lot of grief in that. But it's also very liberating to uncover this process that's been happening at a very subconscious level and how that's been perpetuating our hurt and pain and shame and emotional responses. Because when we make things mean stuff about ourselves, when we have these stories and everything that happens around us, we take as evidence in support of these very painful stories.
0:21:07.43 → 0:22:21.43
Then once again, we're very, very susceptible to significant distress and taking things personally and being very fragile in a way that tends not to be supportive of healthy, secure, grounded, balanced relationships. So that unburdening, that process of healing our core wounds, of building up our self worth, of building up our self trust and our self respect, all of that is very, very important in the healing anxious attachment path. I want to pause there and just point something out which is these two most important pillars are about the self, okay? And that might feel kind of counterintuitive because for anxiously attached people, the impulse, the default is always to focus on the relational piece or on the other person. Whenever I have clients or students or anyone I'm interacting with, when it's about relationship stuff and they're anxiously attached, all they want to do is tell me about the other person and what they did and what they said and what their emotional struggles are and what their challenges are.
0:22:21.47 → 0:22:56.10
And then my assessment of what they're thinking and feeling, it's always about the other. And that is very much part and parcel. Anxious attachment, as I spoke to earlier, is if I can control other people and gather information about other people, then I can control the environment and the conditions. And in so doing I can ensure my own sense of safety and stability, right? But to continue to do that is to continue to participate in the pattern that is keeping you in this place, right, in this way of being.
0:22:56.23 → 0:23:53.71
And so it is no accident that the overwhelming focus of my work in helping people with anxious attachment is on the self. It has to be because if you keep focusing on the other and on the relationship, it's actually feeding into this belief of I need to make sure that we are okay so that I'll be okay. Whereas what I want to teach you is I will be okay because I am going to build myself up so that I am okay no matter what's going on out there, right? That's really where that capacity comes from and that self trust and that resilience when we have those two pillars of self regulation and internal security and safety, along with tending to those core wounds and building up that self worth. That's the point at which we can really start to usefully layer in relational skills, right?
0:23:53.88 → 0:24:59.64
This is where stuff like how do I communicate more effectively, how do I have conflict in a way that is constructive and productive, how do I advocate for myself through boundaries? How do I get very clear on my values and what I'm looking for in relationship in a way that allows me to really back myself and feel comfortable saying no to things that don't work and seeing an incompatibility for what it is rather than seeing it as an invitation to strive and change someone and backflip and change ourselves and do whatever we'd need to do to make it work right. We become so much clearer in who we are and what we're looking for that we can confidently start to apply these skills. Because I think that when we don't have those strong foundations of self and we go straight to setting boundaries and voicing needs, we're doing it from this place of I'm voicing a need. But also, if you don't think that that's a reasonable need, then don't worry about it.
0:24:59.69 → 0:25:55.66
Or we voice a boundary, but it's so fear fueled and fear driven that it comes out as really us being a tyrant and a dictator and telling someone, how dare you treat me like this? And you better not do that or else. Right. Which is a lot of charge behind that and typically doesn't work very well, right? So I think that having this internal piece and again it's not like an endpoint where you have to get to healed as a destination before you can take these steps but having at least some foundation of internal security in order to then go to the relational piece and be able to calmly advocate for yourself and really be comfortable in what you are expressing and what you are needing and have enough capacity to also have space for the other person's experience.
0:25:55.79 → 0:26:41.57
Right? When we're in a lot of fear there's just no space for the other person because our whole view becomes very tunnel visioned and very self interested and that's just true for everyone. When you're in fear, you are selfish. Of course evolutionarily makes sense if I think that I'm under threat, I'm going to be watching out for me first and foremost and so I've got to be able to deal with the things that lead me to feel threatened all the time in relationships and a lot of that starts with me. So once I've built up my capacity to come to my relationship without feeling like I'm on the brink all the time, feeling like everything is a minefield and that I'm tiptoeing around, that when there's just a bit more space and ease.
0:26:41.67 → 0:27:46.73
Then we start being able to layer on these secure communication, secure functioning, secure relationship skills that allow us to really cement everything that we're doing within ourselves and build up a relationship that is different. We get to create new possibilities from all of the work that we're doing because in the absence of that, obviously we just do a rinse and repeat on the things that we've always done. But when we start to have this increased capacity, then we get to forge these new experiences and these new memories. And it's incredible, the ripple effect of one person doing their work on the people around them and the people that they might be in relationship with. So while you can't guarantee that you're doing your work is going to change your partner and to be very clear, that should never be your motive. Please. Again, that is a great example of anxious detachers being other focused. It's like, what can I do to change them? How can I change myself so that they change? No.
0:27:46.90 → 0:28:31.18
How can I change myself so that I experience more peace and stability and freedom, okay? And trust that from that place I will know what to do and I will know what I need and I will have the capacity to make better decisions for myself, whatever that looks like. It is not how can I change so that I can elicit change in them. But with that being said, oftentimes one person's change will trigger changes in the other because these things are cocreated and they're relational and they're dynamic. And so if you start dancing a different dance, you might notice that your partner shows up very differently because you might not be pushing their buttons in the way that you were before without even realising it.
0:28:31.31 → 0:29:00.00
Because again, all of this stuff happens very subconsciously. So I did promise that I was going to give some mindset tips as a little wrap up on this. And so I suppose the main thing that I want to say is healing is not a journey with a start and a finish. It's not a destination that you're going to reach. Sometimes I get emails and messages from people asking me if the expected outcome of a course or a programme of mine is that they will be healed.
0:29:00.19 → 0:29:28.36
And I would never ever represent that to anyone. And maybe the course is inaccurately titled by being called Healing Anxious Attachment. But unfortunately it's hard to add too much nuance into a short and sweet title for a programme. Evolving into a place where I no longer feel at the mercy of my anxious attachment is not a very catchy title, but that's really the essence of it, right? It's growing beyond it's.
0:29:28.55 → 0:30:49.10
Can I build up my capacity so that my anxious parts are not driving the bus and speaking to my own experience? It's not like I never experience those anxious thoughts, feelings, sensations anymore. It's not that I don't think the catastrophic thoughts or have those insecurities pop up, but it's just I put so much effort and energy and time into building up my other parts and creating more space and really nurturing. Those other parts that are more secure and more grounded in self worth and self respect and self trust, such that the anxious part is much quieter and doesn't have to work so hard because I've tended to a lot of the fear and a lot of the wounding that that anxious part was trying to protect. And so while it's not totally gone, it's not in control of me anymore and it's not something that I feel threatened by or overwhelmed by, it's just something that I can notice and go, oh okay, if I notice myself feeling anxious, what is that telling me and what might I need to do, right?
0:30:49.47 → 0:31:24.06
It's just asking for my attention and that's okay, I've got enough capacity that I can go okay, I'm feeling anxious, what might I need, right? Rather than going, oh my God, I feel anxious, I've got to do something that means something's wrong, urgent, overwhelming, and then being driven to behave in a certain way based on that feeling. So it's really not about reaching some endpoint, unfortunately. There is no endpoint, there is no healed, there is no clock off work because we're all done and dusted. It's not like that, unfortunately.
0:31:24.25 → 0:32:37.87
It's a journey. And I think the more that we can yield to that while also not feeling like we have to be fixing ourselves all the time, it's really gifting ourselves a lifelong process of growing and evolving and being with whatever arises and expanding our capacity for peace and freedom and really open hearted love rather than love that is infused with fear and control and insecurity. So lifelong and hard at times. And it takes time. But it's also absolutely possible to grow to a place where anxious attachment is not the overwhelming experience of your relationships, where you have relationships that feel safe and grounded and mutually supportive and reciprocal and where you really can.
0:32:38.02 → 0:33:07.41
Take in someone's love and trust it rather than constantly anticipating something bad happening or that they're going to leave you or find someone better. All of that is possible and I really, if nothing else, please believe that that is available to you. And as I said, it's not always easy but it is worth it and it is possible. So this has been a long episode. If you've made it this far, thanks for sticking with me.
0:33:07.45 → 0:33:53.40
I hope it's been helpful and it's given you a bit of insight into what's involved in this journey to healing anxious attachment and developing a more secure way of being. If you've enjoyed this episode, please do leave a rating or a review. It's hugely helpful. And if you are keen to say yes to this work to dive in deeper. Tomorrow is the day for healing anxious attachment 5.0 you can join the waitlist via the link in the show notes or by heading straight to my website and I would love to see you in there if. You are ready to do this work and ready to make a change. Thank you all so much for being with me. I will see you later in the week. Thanks guys.
0:33:54.57 → 0:34:22.89
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again sooner.
Why Are "Toxic" Relationships So Hard to Recover From
Ever wondered why it is so challenging to recover from toxic relationships? Why the chaos and unpredictability leave you feeling disoriented and overwhelmed? I'm here to guide you through this complex terrain. In a candid conversation, we'll unravel the dynamics of such relationships and expose the confusion, grief, and shame that often accompany them. Just remember, the difficulty isn't only in letting go, but also in the aftermath that can leave you feeling lost.
Ever wondered why it is so challenging to recover from toxic relationships? Why the chaos and unpredictability leave you feeling disoriented and overwhelmed? I'm here to guide you through this complex terrain. In a candid conversation, we'll unravel the dynamics of such relationships and expose the confusion, grief, and shame that often accompany them. Just remember, the difficulty isn't only in letting go, but also in the aftermath that can leave you feeling lost.
As we journey together towards healing, we'll tackle the isolation, embarrassment, and the elusive closure that often seems unattainable. It's a hard road, no doubt about it, but I'm here to help you navigate through it. We'll dig into practical tools to assist you in the recovery process, and learn how to move on healthily. No more futile pursuit of validation and connection, no more shame for not leaving sooner; we're focusing on healing and growth. Brace yourself, we're about to strip away the layers and reveal the true dynamics of toxic relationships.
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Join the waitlist for Healing Anxious Attachment
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
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Episode Transcript
0:00:04.41 → 0:00:29.77
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. You. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment.
0:00:29.87 → 0:01:12.17
In today's episode, we're going to be talking all about why toxic or dysfunctional unhealthy relationships are so hard to recover from. So this is one of those areas where it's really counterintuitive. You would think that a relationship that's been a bit of a train wreck, a bit of a shit show, is something that you're going to leave and feel this big sigh of relief, put it behind you and suddenly you're free of all of that drama and you can move on with your life and be better for it. While that is what it feels like it should be on paper, the reality of it is often much messier than that. And as I said, counterintuitively.
0:01:12.22 → 0:02:01.57
I think that we can struggle a lot more to detach from and make sense of these really dysfunctional dynamics compared with if we were moving on from a breakup of a relationship that was broadly healthy and stable, you'd think that those ones would be the ones that we'd really struggle to let go of. But that's generally not the case. So I'm going to be unpacking why that is why it's such a common experience to really struggle to not only leave and let go of these dysfunctional relationships, as in getting to the point of breaking up, but why the aftermath can feel so confusing and disorienting. And I'm hoping that in doing that it will not only normalise that experience. If you've been in that or maybe you're in it at the moment and you're wondering, what's wrong with me?
0:02:01.64 → 0:02:28.53
I know rationally that that relationship was really unhealthy for me. And yet I feel so consumed by thinking about it and playing out all of the what ifs and all of those scenarios. But also that it'll give you some tools to really give yourself the acceptance and the closure that you're seeking in a way that allows you to move on with your life in a healthy way. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements.
0:02:28.66 → 0:03:06.84
The first being you will have heard me mention in the past couple of episodes that Healing Anxious Attachment, my signature course, is reopening for enrollment very soon. In one week, I think from the date that this comes out, there are already well over a thousand of you who have signed up to the waitlist, which ensures you get early bird pricing and first access when the course comes out. And you can join that waitlist via the link in the show notes. I'm also very excited, although slightly hesitant to announce, and I say hesitant because announcing it on here makes it real and forces me to actually follow through on this. But here we go.
0:03:07.29 → 0:03:48.71
For the first time ever, I'm going to be offering a VIP version of Healing Anxious Attachment, which is more of a group coaching programme than an online course. So Healing Anxious Attachment, in its original form is an online course, so it's eight modules that are self paced and you have lifetime access to those. So it's really comprehensive and has heaps of information and resources, workbooks, meditations, the whole bit. It's a really wonderful course, but I know that for some people, having that additional face to face component and individual support from me is really helpful. But obviously I'm constrained in how many people I'm able to offer that to.
0:03:48.86 → 0:04:21.66
The last couple of rounds of Healing Anxious Attachment had about 350 people. So obviously, I'm not in a position to give individual coaching and feedback to 350 people. It's just way beyond capacity. So something that I'm trialling for this next round is a capped small group coaching VIP option, and that will be 690 minutes group coaching calls with me over that eight week period. We're also going to have a pop up online community, so there's that support and community connection and a few bonus resources as well.
0:04:21.71 → 0:05:03.94
So that's going to be capped, I think, at 30 spots. So if that's something that interests you, maybe you've been interested in working with me more closely, maybe you've looked at my Mastermind but not wanted to commit to a full six months. This could be a really great way to get that extra support along with the course itself, in a way that allows you to get that feedback and interaction with me and with your peers that goes beyond just the self paced learning of a course. So, again, if you're interested in that, just join the regular waitlist and that will be a first come, first served when doors open next week for the VIP option. So I hope that people are excited by that.
0:05:03.96 → 0:05:24.96
And as I said, it's a bit of an experiment, so we'll see how it goes. The second quick announcement is just to share the featured review, which is the kindness, sincerity and compassion that she shares her knowledge with is wonderful. I've already gained so much insight regarding past relationships, current relationships and definitely communication. Thank you for the beautiful way that all of this is given. Thank you so much for that beautiful review.
0:05:25.01 → 0:05:47.62
I really appreciate it. If that was yours, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my Masterclasses. Okay, all of that out of the way. Thank you for your patience. I know that when it's launching time, when I'm in course launch mode, the introduction tends to be a little lengthier, so I appreciate you sticking with me.
0:05:47.72 → 0:06:31.92
Let's talk about toxic relationships and why they're so hard to recover from. As I said in the introduction, oftentimes when we've been in a toxic relationship, when we eventually get to the point where that relationship ends, for whatever reason, you would think that we would be really relieved. And I think on some level, we can be the part of us that knows that that was costing us a lot emotionally, physically, potentially, mentally. The part of us that's exhausted and drained might feel a sense of relief that we're through the other side of that. But at the same time, I think for many people, the overwhelming feeling is one of confusion and grief and maybe shame.
0:06:32.03 → 0:07:08.96
I think that we can have a lot of shame around what we put up with and for how long. I know that I've experienced that myself. But a lot of these relationships end in a way that is not satisfying, it's not tied up nicely in a way where we can make sense of what happened and why. And I think that we talk so much about closure and the need for closure at the end of a relationship, and it's rare that a really toxic, dysfunctional dynamic is going to leave you with a sense of closure. Because if we really unpack, what do we mean by closure?
0:07:09.02 → 0:08:05.80
It's a sense of acceptance, a sense of understanding what happened and why and the very nature of dysfunctional toxic dynamics is that there's not a lot of sense to it. It might have been very chaotic and unpredictable and confusing and inconsistent. Probably not great communication, probably high conflict, maybe turbulence. You probably never felt terribly validated or understood by this person in a way that really allowed you to feel emotionally safe with them. And so it's almost like you've spent whatever period of time it might have been months, it might have been years, you've spent that time banging up against a wall, trying to make it work, only to then slump down in defeat and just feel totally spent, but also really defeated by the fact that you weren't able to get there.
0:08:06.17 → 0:09:31.89
And that sort of brings me to part of why I think it's so hard, particularly if you are someone who leans more towards anxious attachment, your baseline tendency in relationships is to just try everything and try it again and again and again, right? It's really, really hard to walk away from a relationship, no matter how dysfunctional it is, because your blueprint is to keep pushing, right, to keep trying to get over the line, to get someone to show up in a certain way, to get them to give you the comfort, the validation, the connection that you're craving from them. And in a weird sort of way, the more erratic they are, the more inconsistent they are, the more your anxiety flares up and really drives you to do that over functioning backbending thing of just trying to get someone to be there for you. Striving proving people pleasing, fawning, whatever it might look like, your efforts tend to ramp up commensurate with their chaos and that's not meant to abrogate responsibility. On one side, I think that these dynamics are almost always co created and we tend to trigger each other into increasing levels of chaos and dysfunction.
0:09:32.63 → 0:10:17.47
But on the anxious side, and I speak to that experience because I know that so many of my community fall into that camp. On the anxious side, it's likely that you expended a lot of emotional energy and effort into trying to make the relationship work, dysfunction notwithstanding, that you were just trying and trying and trying, and that as that got increasingly challenging over the course of the relationship, your efforts only increased. Right. And you might find yourself isolated from friends and family. You might have really been so consumed by trying to make the relationship work that your world got very small.
0:10:17.67 → 0:11:11.60
And again, I can relate to this, that you become really insular and maybe you don't want to tell people how bad it is because you're ashamed and you still want to salvage it and so you don't want to taint the relationship and your partner in the eyes of the people in your life. And so you just get very small and you get very private and you don't really have the energy or bandwidth to deal with anything outside of this very important mission to try and salvage this shit show of a relationship, right? And that's really, really hard to not only go through, but then to come out of it's. Kind of like the metaphor or the analogy that I always use is like a bomb's just gone off. You're in this war zone and then you sort of come to and you're just walking around amongst the rubble trying to make sense of it and figuring out, where do I even begin to pick up the pieces from this?
0:11:11.65 → 0:12:13.63
Because I really lost a lot of myself in those efforts to make this dysfunctional relationship become some semblance of stability and to realise that you just couldn't get there and that you've now got to deal with the aftermath of that in terms of your own sense of self, self esteem, self worth, all of those things. That's a really, really destabilising and disorienting place to be. So I really just want to validate how very understandable it is if that has been your experience, if you've recently gone through that, if you're in it at the moment, or maybe you've gone through it in the past and you've just maybe been hard on yourself for the fact that you haven't been able to let go. I think that in many cases, as much as we can know rationally, that the relationship ending was the right thing, again, it runs counter to everything in your being to give up, right? And just because the relationship was unhealthy, very few relationships are bad 100% of the time.
0:12:13.80 → 0:13:02.10
And so when all of that stress is alleviated, all of the day to day dysfunction is gone because the relationships ended and you're not having to deal with that oftentimes, you'll be left with this really warped, skewed perception. Of what the relationship was because you're now no longer dealing with the bad stuff, but you have all the memories of the good stuff and you're dealing with the lack of whatever good things were there. So the comfort, the company, maybe there was still intimacy of some sort, all of those things. You're suddenly feeling this gaping void and you really have all of this urge to reattach and reconnect because those things feel so good and to not have them feel so painful. But you have this very selective memory around what the relationship was like.
0:13:02.15 → 0:13:57.35
And again, I think that's part of our brain and our being just trying to make sense of it and trying to make it hurt less is by convincing ourselves that it wasn't that bad or that maybe it's still salvageable. Or maybe we should have one more conversation just to try and make it all make sense, to bring it all into some sense of harmony or rationality or something that we can tie up neatly with a bow and go, okay, I can accept that now because I can tell the story in a way that feels cohesive. Because I think in many cases we don't have answers. And to tell the story as it happened, we can really struggle to make sense of why we stayed and what about that was appealing to us and why we didn't leave sooner or set boundaries, or why we forgave someone a million times for hurting us. All of those things can be really hard to just look at in the light of day and make sense of.
0:13:57.42 → 0:14:39.86
And so we do want to find other justifications and other explanations and other ways to spin the story or to salvage that wreckage. So, as I said, I just want to really normalise that. If you have been through it and you've been hard on yourself for that, I think that that's really common, more so than you'd realise. Obviously, I am kind of privy to this because it's my job and I speak to so many people about this, but I think most of us do feel a level of shame and embarrassment. And so we tend not to be very honest with our friends and family when we've been through something like this because we don't want to admit how bad it was.
0:14:39.91 → 0:15:05.75
And we might judge ourselves for not being stronger, all sorts of things. So just validating how normal that is. And you're very much not alone in that experience. Now, pivoting to how can we help ourselves when we're in this space? I think that the whole closure piece is one of those tricky ones where oftentimes we tell ourselves that we need to get closure from this person in order to be able to move on.
0:15:05.84 → 0:15:56.84
And as I've said before, the great irony around closure is the relationships that leave you reaching for closure, needing closure, desperate for closure, are probably the relationships where you're never going to get it. Because the person who leaves you in that sense of disarray, going back to that visual of standing amongst the rubble, desperately seeking an explanation and a way to make meaning of it, the person who leaves you feeling like that is probably not the person who has the capacity to give you the closure that you're seeking. Right? We tell ourselves that just one more conversation and then I'll feel better. But remember, this person that you're wanting to have one more conversation with is the same person who hurt you or who was unable to emotionally support you or who you had really dysfunctional conflict cycles with.
0:15:56.94 → 0:16:22.77
It's the same person. And they probably haven't magically developed emotional capacity and emotional maturity such that they're going to be able to show up to that conversation in a way that will give you the relief that you're looking for. So if that's one of the stories you're telling yourself, I just need to talk to them. I just need to get closure from them, please trust me when I say that your closure comes from within. It comes from finding a level of acceptance.
0:16:22.85 → 0:16:38.65
And sometimes that acceptance is accepting that you will never fully understand what happened there, accepting that you will never fully know what was going on for them. You'll never know the full truth. You'll never know how they were feeling. You'll never know why they behaved the way they did. All of those things.
0:16:38.72 → 0:17:16.07
There's this level of, can I just accept that I will never fully understand or that I might never know how they're feeling? And coming to terms with that, making peace with that, and really just letting go and trusting that that's where your closure comes from. It's really an inner peace, rather than finding some sort of outer relational story that finally feels cohesive, because sometimes that cohesiveness just doesn't exist, right? There isn't a nice explanation for what happened that makes us feel better. So we just actually need to self source that level of acceptance and peace.
0:17:16.41 → 0:17:59.16
The other thing that I'd say is, in the same vein, people often say, like, I can't move on until I can't let go, yet I can't move on. I'm not over them, therefore I can't move on with my life. And again, I understand the sentiment, we've all been there. But I think the really important thing to understand is that your acceptance, your letting go emotionally comes from taking action. So rather than waiting until you magically feel better to move on with your life, to start rebuilding and taking steps towards whatever the next chapter looks like, I think you need to take those steps and trust that the feelings will follow.
0:17:59.61 → 0:18:43.12
You need to take those steps to create the space in your life for a new version of you to emerge. Because if you just stay kind of static and stuck in this old version where your life looks exactly the same, except now there's this gaping hole where the relationship used to be, then you're going to be feeling that gaping hole every day. And I don't think that it's wise to just expect that to go away. So my suggestion to you is turn over the page and start writing out a new story and trust that you will grow through it and you'll be stronger for it. But there's much more personal power and freedom and liberation in taking that action before you feel ready.
0:18:43.25 → 0:19:01.88
It's like all of those quotes that you'll see on Instagram. It's like you don't wait until you're motivated to go to the gym. You go to the gym and you find your motivation once you get going. And I think it's a similar principle here. Let's not let our feelings be in the driver's seat of our choices that we need to make to really support our well being.
0:19:02.01 → 0:20:07.26
The final thing that I'll say here is I alluded to it earlier how common it is for us to isolate when we've been in unhealthy dysfunctional relationships and when we come out of them again, I think that's a combination of not having the bandwidth. If we're just so swept up in a very all consuming relationship where we're pouring all of our emotional and mental energy into trying to make the relationship work and there's a lot of conflict and dysfunction that's really exhausting and it's easy to just kind of organically become more isolated when you're in that. And then I think the other part, which is maybe more deliberate, is we aren't very honest or forthcoming with the people in our lives because we feel a lot of shame and maybe even embarrassment or humiliation about how bad things are and what we've accepted from this person. So if that's you and that's kind of an aspect of what you've been experiencing, I know that it's really hard. I know that your shame will tell you to hide, but the people in your life probably really care about you and really want to support you.
0:20:07.31 → 0:20:21.66
So I think that opening up to trusted people and saying the honest truth, I don't know how I got here. It was really bad. I was just trying to make it work. I feel so much grief. I feel so lonely.
0:20:21.72 → 0:20:55.78
Whatever it is that you're feeling, trust that the people who care about you care about that experience and want to support you through it. So try not to isolate yourself. Try to reach out to people. That's going to be a really important part of the healing process for you and really deeply reminding your system that you are loved and you are cared for and that you have lots going on in your life. Because again, it can feel very dark and lonely when we've lost that attachment figure in the form of our romantic partner.
0:20:55.89 → 0:21:20.69
So supplementing that with lots of other beautiful, loving, nourishing supportive relationships is really, really good. Okay? I really hope that that has been helpful. I know that if you're in this at the moment, it's so tough and it's so disorienting, but I do hope that this has given you a feel for there being a light at the end of the tunnel. If you are going through a breakup and you're wanting some additional resources and tools for that.
0:21:20.73 → 0:21:39.85
I do have a breakup course on my website called Higher Love. That's a really good one, and it really kind of holds your hand and walks you through the whole breakup process and beyond. So you can go cheque that out via my website and we might link it in the show notes as well. Otherwise, guys, as always, grateful for you. Grateful for your support.
0:21:40.00 → 0:22:07.25
If you like this episode, please leave a rating or a review or a little comment on Spotify if you're listening there, and I look forward to seeing you next time. Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram at @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating.
0:22:07.33 → 0:22:19.25
It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here, and I hope to see you again sooner.
How to Manage Jealousy in Relationships
Ever wrestled with the green-eyed monster of jealousy? Well, you're not alone. I'm inviting you to join me on a journey to understand this complex emotion better and explore ways to transform it into a tool for strengthening relationships. We'll explore the various expressions of jealousy, ranging from the healthy to the unhealthy, and shed light on why it emerges, encouraging a perspective of curiosity and understanding over judgement.
Ever wrestled with the green-eyed monster of jealousy? Well, you're not alone. I'm inviting you to join me on a journey to understand this complex emotion better and explore ways to transform it into a tool for strengthening relationships. We'll explore the various expressions of jealousy, ranging from the healthy to the unhealthy, and shed light on why it emerges, encouraging a perspective of curiosity and understanding over judgement.
Today's episode is especially beneficial for those grappling with jealousy resulting from a partner's past wrongdoings. Together, we'll learn how to create a safe space for addressing these feelings and communicating them respectfully.. So tune in, and let's redefine your understanding of jealousy in relationships.
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Join the waitlist for Healing Anxious Attachment
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:04.33 → 0:00:36.06
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, we're talking all about jealousy, how to manage jealousy in relationships.
0:00:36.17 → 0:01:36.50
So I think unless you are superhuman, the most confident and secure person to ever walk the planet, you've probably experienced jealousy at one point or another in your relationships. And that's because jealousy is a very, very normal part of being human. But I think that we could all agree that there are healthy, normal expressions of jealousy and then there are versions of jealousy that can really send us to not so healthy places, both within ourselves and our relationships. So I'm hoping that in today's conversation, I can give a bit of context for jealousy and unpacking what might be the drivers of that, if it's something that you experience very acutely in your relationship. And also some tips on how you can talk to your partner about jealousy, any particular situations that might be triggering your jealousy, and how you can navigate those together in a way that hopefully brings you closer, rather than it being a persistent wedge between you that really drives your part and undermines the security of the partnership.
0:01:36.56 → 0:02:00.32
So that's what we're going to be talking about today. Before we dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. As I've mentioned in the past few episodes, Healing Anxious Attachment, which is my signature course, is reopening for enrollment later this month. Over a thousand people have been through Healing Anxious Attachment in the last year or so since I first launched it. It's a really powerful programme and it's one that I'm always improving and adding more to.
0:02:00.37 → 0:02:33.33
So this will be the fifth round and it will be the best yet, I have no doubt. If you're wanting to find out more or join the programme when it opens later this month, jump onto the waitlist via the link in my show notes or by heading straight to my website, stephanierigg.com. And being on that waitlist will ensure that you get first access when doors open and also guarantee you early bird pricing, which is $100 cheaper than the regular price. The second quick announcement is just to share the featured review for today, which is I love this one. Like a cup of hot chocolate for the heart.
0:02:33.47 → 0:03:05.25
Finding fulfilling relationships in which we're able to calm and offer soothing care to each other is so central to our human experience. Navigating the obstacles that different insecure attachment styles throw up is such a key challenge as we seek to cultivate meaningful relationships. Steph's podcast sparkles luminously with warmth, empathy, kindness and care as she invites curiosity to illuminate how we relate with the most important of tools, insight and understanding that's such a beautifully written review like you must be a writer. Thank you so much for the kind words. I really, really appreciate it.
0:03:05.37 → 0:03:49.57
If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, let's dive into this conversation around jealousy. So, as I said in the introduction, jealousy is an emotion like any other and as such it's not something that we should be judging as bad. And yet I think for most of us we've been conditioned to see jealousy as a problem, maybe as a sign of weakness or a sign of insecurity. We might tell ourselves a story that if I were more confident or if I were more secure or more something, then I wouldn't struggle with jealousy.
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But I don't think that's true. I think that we feel really ashamed of our jealousy when really jealousy is a very normal and natural human emotion and part of the human experience. The evolutionary psychologists would describe jealousy as a mate protection strategy, meaning when you feel like your relationship is threatened in some way by someone or something extraneous to the relationship, jealousy arises as this emotion that compels you to do something about it, to take action in protection of your partnership. And so when we see it in those terms, it kind of makes sense as an evolutionary protective mechanism that we would feel this jealousy and all of the emotions that might accompany it anger or rage or frustration or fear because it's threatening our relationship. And our relationship is something that obviously we experience as part of our safety and survival.
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So when we look at jealousy in that way, all of a sudden it kind of makes a lot of sense, as do most of our emotions. And if you're familiar with my work, you know that I'm all in favour of approaching our emotions with a level of curiosity and trying to figure out why they make sense rather than just trying to shut them down or shame ourselves or make ourselves wrong for the things that we're feeling. That approach tends to only make things worse, only exacerbate the challenging feelings that we're having because we're layering there's a primary emotion of jealousy or fear or anger. And on top of that we're adding shame and self criticism and self blame, which tends to just add more stress and resistance to our system rather than softening the system and creating more integration. So I suppose the first point here is please don't judge yourself for experiencing jealousy because we all do from time to time.
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It really is a very natural and normal human thing. So let's try and take the philtre of judgement off jealousy as with all other emotions, because there's really very little to be gained by judging our emotions as we experience them. Now, I think the thing with jealousy is, while I can certainly say and honestly say that there's nothing inherently wrong with jealousy, we could probably all agree that sometimes jealousy can be very all consuming and if managed poorly, it can really damage a relationship. So I think that when jealousy gets out of control, or perhaps I should say the behaviours that might be fueled by jealousy can get out of control. That's where we can get to the territory of really harmful, unsafe, disrespectful, untrusting dynamics.
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And I should just clarify here, I'm not speaking about abusive situations, although obviously jealousy can play a part there in domestic abuse and violence and things of that nature. That's not the scope of my work. So really what I'm talking about here is more the behaviours if you are the jealous one of things like snooping or trying to gather information or making accusations or stalking even invading someone's privacy. Kind of getting into this feverish state of thinking that there is this threat to the relationship from something outside and that you go into almost a panicked state trying to regain some semblance of control. And for those who tend more towards anxious attachment, this does tend to look like information gathering and accusation and finding some solace in feeling like you know the truth.
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Because the uncertainty of the unknown coupled with jealousy and suspicion can be just maddening for you. And I say that as someone who has experienced it, as I have, many of the things that I talk about on this podcast. So while jealousy managed poorly can absolutely drive a relationship into the ground, I think that jealousy managed well can actually bring you closer. And that might sound a bit crazy for you if that's not been your experience. And jealousy has only ever been something that has chipped away at the connection and has ultimately maybe torpedoed the connection.
0:08:20.03 → 0:09:07.35
And that's understandable. I think that in a pretty classic anxious, avoidant dynamic, particularly one where the people involved maybe lack the skills and the emotional capacity to be empathetic in moments and times of stress, which I think goes for most couples before they've done this work, right. We lose our capacity to be caring about the other person's experience when we're under a lot of stress or we feel like we're being attacked or anything in that vein. I think what often happens in that very classic expression of the anxious avoidance dynamic in the context of jealousy is the anxious person. You're probably very hyper attuned hypersensitive to anything that feels threatening to the relationship because the relationship is your lifeline, right?
0:09:07.47 → 0:10:02.95
That connection is so primal for you and your need to protect it is off the charts. And so any slight hint of a threat to the relationship is going to register really high on your threat levels and you are going to go into full fixing mode or harm minimization or whatever else you might do as a way to try and deal with that threat. Unfortunately, sometimes those behaviours can be unhealthy and dysregulated and highly emotional in a way that is not very productive, that doesn't really allow your partner to meet you in that in a way that is connective and supportive. Now, as always, we have the other side of the coin, which is the more avoidant experience. And we know that the sensitivity is of the more avoided partner, whereas the anxious person is very, very sensitive to anything that threatens the relationship.
0:10:03.15 → 0:11:01.00
The avoided partner is very, very sensitive to anything that feels like an accusation, that feels like an attempt to control, that feels like telling them they have done something wrong when they feel like they haven't done something wrong. And so to the extent that the jealousy is unfounded and I'll come to what I mean by that in a moment, the extent that it's unfounded, an example might be if you're on the more anxious side and you are very jealous of someone that your partner works with because they have a friendship and you feel really threatened by this person, they might be really attractive or really confident or otherwise have some quality that you envy, and so you feel really threatened by them. Provided there's nothing actually untoward about the relationship. Your more avoidant partner might really not take that very well. Might feel like they're being accused of something that they haven't done where there is no wrongdoing.
0:11:01.06 → 0:11:54.79
And so they might really be very dismissive or defensive in the face of you voicing, your jealousy, your concerns. They might feel like you're prying and they haven't deserved that level of scrutiny or surveillance. And so they might become very protective. Now, unfortunately, as is often the case in that anxious avoidant dynamic, when not dealt with skillfully, that defensiveness and dismissiveness in the face of your vulnerability and fear tends to heighten things, right? So if you're expressing that you're jealous and insecure and they're telling you that you're crazy and that you're being paranoid, but they're not really engaging or providing emotional support because they're feeling too attacked or like their backs up against the wall, you're probably not going to get much comfort or reassurance from their emotional response.
0:11:54.89 → 0:13:04.96
And so while you might not proceed with pushing it in terms of outwardly discussing it internally, it's unlikely that you've gotten the relief that you were looking for and then you tend to escalate internally until you next erupt with some other fear driven response. So I think that that's how it can often play out in that anxious avoidant dynamic is you've got hypersensitivity coupled with hypersensitivity to one thing, coupled with hypersensitivity to another. And as always, they kind of click together like puzzle pieces that can really set each other off and exacerbate the other's insecurity, rather than allowing you to build a bridge and come together and find something that is mutually loving, respectful, supportive, of both of your needs. So all of that being said, I did say that I'd speak to this idea of where jealousy is unfounded. And the reason that I want to call that out is because sometimes people are really hard on themselves for being jealous when jealousy is the natural consequence of a breach of trust in the relationship that has happened previously.
0:13:05.10 → 0:14:19.12
I've spoken about this in the context of infidelity and how to rebuild trust after infidelity. But I think that if you experience jealousy and that flows from a past experience whereby your partner has breached trust in a circumstance that looks similar to the one that you're in now. So if we return to the attractive colleague example, if your partner has previously crossed a line with a colleague in a way that was a breach of trust in your relationship, and then there's a new colleague and they're insisting that there's nothing untoward going on, that it looks and feels similar to you, even if there is nothing untoward going on. I think the person on the receiving end of that probably has to give you a little bit more latitude, a little bit more scope and grace, because your jealousy is the natural consequence of their wrongdoing in the past. So that's not something to overly focus on because as I said, I think ideally we want to be sharing and validating a partner's jealousy, or at least be creating a safe space to bring that to the relationship, irrespective of whether it's founded or not.
0:14:19.57 → 0:15:02.85
Because I think ultimately we want to be in relationships where we are a safe recipient for our partner to bring whatever they're experiencing and particularly where our conduct is causing them to experience some sort of inner turmoil or insecurity. Very little is gained from bottling that up and making it our problem to solve rather than bringing it to the arena of the relationship when it is ultimately a relational issue. Now, there are better ways to do that and worse ways to do that. As always, I really recommend that to the extent you're struggling with jealousy and you want to bring it to your partner, you don't want to frame it as an accusation. You don't want to say, I'm jealous because you're doing this bad thing, or anyone would be jealous in my situation.
0:15:02.94 → 0:15:44.51
And why can't you see that? What's wrong with you? Anything like that is immediately going to put someone on the defensive and you're not going to get what you want in terms of having them really hear you and be available to empathise and validate because they're going to be too staunchly in defensive mode and fair enough. So the way that we want to do it is, as always, bringing a combination of self responsibility and honesty and openness and respect. So I think that's really how you deliver it in a way that allows you to come closer into connection as a result of that vulnerability and that openness.
0:15:44.69 → 0:16:44.80
And so sharing that and saying, I find myself feeling really jealous of this, can we talk about it? I recognise that this might be some of my stuff because I know that I've struggled with jealousy in the past, or I know that I've got some of my unworthiness stuff still to deal with and that that can lead me to feel really threatened by people that I feel intimidated by or that I feel are whatever threatening to me in some way because I really envy them or admire them. So I know that this is my stuff. And at the same time, here's how you could support me to feel safe and reassured and comforted within our relationship. Recognising that it's ultimately in both of our best interests for us to be protecting the primacy of our relationship, rather than letting these extraneous things get in the way of that and fester in a way that ultimately erodes the bond between us.
0:16:45.57 → 0:17:30.00
You might recall an episode I did recently with Stan Tatkin, who is a superstar in this space. He's written many books and developed his own couple's therapy modality. But Stan has this concept of thirds, and a third is anything that threatens the primacy of the couple relationship. Obviously this is talking about monogamous relationships, but a third could be a person, it could be a child, it could be work, it could be social media. It's basically like anything outside of the relationship that one or both partners feel is threatening to the primacy of the connection.
0:17:30.08 → 0:18:41.18
And Stan in his work, really emphasises the absolute paramount importance of being pretty proactive about dealing with thirds as they arise, rather than letting them fester because they really can erode the relationship over time and jealousy can turn into resentment and disconnection and all sorts of other things. Whereas if we just deal with them as they arise and we call them out and we bring them to the other person and we have enough of a safe agreement between us that we are going to be a safe landing ground for those fears and those concerns, then that really allows us to approach these issues in a way that is not accusatory and it's not a source of disconnection. It actually brings us closer together because I think to be able to bring to someone your vulnerability and doing it in a self responsible way, that's really a loving thing to do because it's in support of the relationship's long term health and well being. So I hope that that has been a helpful take on jealousy. As I said, jealousy is so normal, it's not something to beat yourself up over.
0:18:41.36 → 0:19:10.12
Maybe the last thing that I'll add just as I'm speaking now, that's occurred to me. If you're someone who really struggles with jealousy and this is more for my anxious attachers. And you know that you get kind of frenzied around it and you get into such an anxious spiral that it feels like you are possessed by the devil and you're being taken over, and you behave in all of these crazy ways that afterwards you're like, wow, what was that? And you feel a lot of shame. Again, you might be able to tell from my tone of voice that I have experience with that and I have been there.
0:19:10.25 → 0:20:11.22
I think a really good idea is to call on a lot of those nervous system regulation tools that I've spoken about briefly on the podcast, but also that I teach very comprehensively in healing anxious attachment. Regulating first, rather than acting while fueled by that frenzied energy of extreme jealousy is a really good idea. So I think kind of bringing some stability and security to your body first, rather than just taking that feeling and letting it become like beer goggles, that makes everything feel extremely threatening and everything feels true and urgent and frantic, and you do feel possessed, like you have to act on it right then and there. And that can lead to behaviour that you really do regret afterwards, because it's probably not the most reasoned and rational approach. So definitely don't forget those nervous system regulation tools if you're someone who can get into that state of real panicked anxiety around jealousy.
0:20:11.33 → 0:20:26.17
Okay? So I hope that that's been helpful. As always, super grateful if you can leave a review. As I said, make sure to jump on the waitlist for healing anxious attachment if that is something that you are interested in checking out in a couple of weeks time. Otherwise, I look forward to seeing you again soon.
0:20:26.26 → 0:20:46.98
Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much.
0:20:47.11 → 0:20:50.12
Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
Navigating Boundaries with an Ex
Ever been caught in that tricky situation of setting boundaries with an ex? Navigating this territory can be a daunting task, especially when co-parenting or shared responsibilities are at play. We promise to equip you with strategies for establishing firm boundaries and prioritising your well-being during this intricate process. Join me, Stephanie Rigg, as we explore a roadmap to conquering insecurities and fostering emotional maturity when interacting with an ex.
Ever been caught in that tricky situation of setting boundaries with an ex? Navigating this territory can be a daunting task, especially when co-parenting or shared responsibilities are at play. We promise to equip you with strategies for establishing firm boundaries and prioritising your well-being during this intricate process. Join me, Stephanie Rigg, as we explore a roadmap to conquering insecurities and fostering emotional maturity when interacting with an ex.
As we move deeper into the episode, we discuss the paramount importance of self-care when dealing with an ex. It's not just about setting boundaries; it's about setting up your mind and emotions for success. Discover how to handle emotions that may surface during interactions with an ex, and how to break free from unhealthy dynamics. Learn the art of peaceful co-existence as we provide you with tools to rebuild self-trust and look after your mental health and wellbeing. Stay tuned, and by the end of our exploration, you will be equipped to maintain healthy boundaries and navigate difficult relationships with confidence.
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Join the waitlist for Healing Anxious Attachment
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.09 → 0:00:43.99
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody, welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, we're going to be talking all about navigating boundaries with an ex. So I think that it's fair to say boundaries as a general topic, an area of relationships, something that a lot of people find really challenging.
0:00:44.07 → 0:01:36.95
I think a lot of us are unaccustomed to advocating for ourselves in a way that feels balanced and confident, while also not turning into a tyrant and dictating to everyone around us how they have to behave. And you would have heard me say before, I think boundaries is one of those areas where people tend to experience a pretty pronounced pendulum swing when they go from never having heard of what a boundary was or never having set one before. And it being a really foreign concept to encountering this body of work and swinging to the other extreme of laying down the law with any and every person that they have any sort of relationship with. And as always, we want to find our way to a healthy middle when it comes to boundaries. And I've got many other episodes around boundaries and I've got a master class all about boundaries.
0:01:37.03 → 0:02:24.87
So as a general topic, there's a lot to speak to with boundaries, but specifically in today's episode, we're going to be looking at the topic of boundaries as applied to relationships with an ex. So I think in some situations it's complicated due to structural factors. I know I get a lot of messages from people who may be co parent with an ex where there's been a divorce, or still cohabitate with an ex, or share a pet or work together. Any number of other things that make it hard to have a clean break and have really very defined boundaries that allow you to emotionally disentangle yourselves from one another and move on with your lives. While that might be the ideal, I recognise that it's not always possible.
0:02:25.07 → 0:02:53.95
And so today I'm going to be talking to some specific situations. So first I'll be unpacking why it can feel challenging to set those boundaries with an X. And then I'm going to give a few different examples of how I would navigate boundaries in specific circumstances with an X. So hopefully that will give you lots to work with and lots to adapt and apply to your own situations to the extent that this might be relevant to you. Before we dive into that, a couple of quick announcements.
0:02:54.03 → 0:03:48.77
The first being you might have heard me mention in the last couple of episodes that Healing Anxious Attachment, my signature course, is coming up again soon, towards the end of the month. I'm going to be reopening the programme and you can sign up for the waitlist via the link in the show notes, which will allow you to be notified when doors open, but also save $100 on the sign up price and access that exclusive early bird pricing. So if you're someone who struggles with anxious attachment and you enjoy what I do on the podcast, and you'd like to dive into my work in a way that really gives you a very comprehensive, deep dive into your experience of anxious attachment as well as the tools to cultivate a secure attachment and secure relationship both within yourself and with the people in your life. Healing anxious attachment is a really wonderful option. So definitely jump on the waitlist if you're not already.
0:03:48.84 → 0:04:18.51
I think there's already almost 1000 people on the waitlist, which is pretty amazing, but definitely join that if you're keen to secure your place when doors open at the end of the month. The second quick announcement is just to share the featured review for today, which is no matter if you're avoidant anxious or other, if you're open to growth, this is such an amazing thing to listen to. Stephanie speaks so kindly and in such a supportive way and gives such amazing observations and guidance. I can't recommend it enough. I've been working on my self growth a lot in my life lately and this podcast has been a huge catalyst in my growth.
0:04:19.33 → 0:04:40.16
Thank you so much. I'm so touched by those words and I really, really appreciate being part of your journey. That's really lovely to hear. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around boundaries with an ex.
0:04:40.26 → 0:05:19.36
Now, as I said, boundaries are really challenging for a lot of us. A lot of us are accustomed to putting other people first, right? To caretaking, other people's comfort, to prioritising other people's emotions. And so the idea of taking action that is in our best interests, that might have an adverse impact on someone else, can feel very, very edgy. It can feel like it's flying in the face of everything that we've ever known to be true about relationships and about what it means to be liked, accepted, loved, approved of.
0:05:19.49 → 0:06:18.03
For those of us who rely on people pleasing or that compulsive need to be liked and to control how we're perceived by other people, the idea of setting a boundary that might mean someone else is hurt or inconvenienced or upset or disappointed in us, it feels really hard. As I said, I think boundaries with an ex represent a very unique situation because there's a lot of stuff wrapped up in it. So whereas boundaries in a primary relationship, so we'll stick to romantic relationships for the sake of this conversation, whereas boundaries in a primary relationship really require us to find mutually workable solutions. So again, I think this is one of those areas where people kind of misunderstand the point of boundaries. People think that it's about me telling you how to behave with respect to me and if you don't, there will be consequences and it all becomes very authoritarian a lot of the time.
0:06:18.12 → 0:07:23.17
But I think really healthy boundaries allow us to find a way to be in connection with one another that honours both of our limits, right? It's saying, in order for me to be in relationship with you, here's what works and here's what doesn't. And that obviously can show up in a lot of different ways and expressions. But whereas in a primary relationship there is this need for mutuality and I think the more we can convey the mutual benefit of a boundary, then not only does it become much more likely to stick, but it becomes much less intimidating to set that boundary because it really becomes an invitation into more connection rather than feeling like a wall that is going to keep someone out or push them away. When it comes to boundaries with an ex, I think there is more scope to be selfish and indeed oftentimes setting boundaries with an ex will require you to be selfish in the sense of putting your own needs squarely ahead of the needs of someone else.
0:07:23.34 → 0:07:51.61
Now, one of the areas that this often comes up is in the wake of a breakup, right? In the immediate aftermath where I'll get messages from people saying, I feel really guilty, my ex is really upset and keeps messaging me or keeps calling me, and I feel so bad. I feel such a sense of guilt that I keep engaging with them because I don't want them to feel upset. And I feel like I've been the cause of that. How do I deal with this situation?
0:07:51.78 → 0:08:39.95
And I think that that is an area where it's really important that you do set the boundary. Because even though in the short term it might feel like you are causing them hurt or harm by disengaging and by setting a boundary and really holding firm on it, query what you're actually doing by continuing to participate and caretake and be the emotional crutch for someone who you're no longer in a relationship with. I know that it's very hard to set that boundary and I've been in that situation before and not handled it terribly well, but ultimately it just makes it harder for both of you, right? Because provided it's not changing the outcome of the breakup, you're just kicking the cam down the road on that emotional disentanglement that needs to happen. Ultimately, you are going to have to decouple from one another sooner or later.
0:08:40.15 → 0:09:48.65
And so continuing to be each other's emotional support person throughout that process where you're really tender and hurting is not really in either of your interests. So I think it's a really good example of where boundaries might feel harsh and hard, but they're actually kind ultimately, because they're honest and they really support us to take care of ourselves and they support the other person to take care of themselves in a way that is healthier and more adaptive in the long run. So really emphasising that you are allowed to do what is right for you. Insofar as boundaries with an ex are concerned, caretaking, their feelings, their emotions, stewarding them through the breakup and the aftermath of that really isn't your responsibility and frankly shouldn't be your responsibility for either of your sakes. So full permission to set boundaries with an ex that are selfish, right, that are prioritising your needs and your processing and your moving on above the processing, the needs, the emotions of your ex partner.
0:09:48.75 → 0:10:19.06
Trust me when I say that it's in both of your interests for you to do that. Now, I said I was going to run through some specific circumstances where you might struggle with boundary setting with an ex and give you just some quick tips around that. So the first one here, and it's kind of in the same vein as what I was just speaking to, is a scenario where you and your ex have never really had any boundaries since breaking up. There's a lot of confusing, conflicting feelings. You still love and miss each other, but you're not in a relationship.
0:10:19.43 → 0:10:31.33
So you've broken up, but you've still been in frequent contact. Maybe you've still been seeing each other. Maybe you've even still been sleeping together. So I get people asking me what do I do in this situation? How do I let go?
0:10:31.53 → 0:11:08.67
And I think this is one where we need to have inner boundaries and we need to have relational boundaries. And it's one of those ones that feels really complicated but in fact is very simple. It's just hard, okay? And noticing where that distinction lies, the things that are simple but not easy, I think we'd like to tell ourselves that they're very complicated because that almost gives us an excuse not to act. Whereas if we acknowledge that it's actually quite straightforward, it's just difficult, then it's more incumbent on us to stop participating and take responsibility and do something about it.
0:11:08.71 → 0:12:05.74
So I think in the scenario where you know you're not going to get back together, you know that the relationship didn't work, but you haven't had that real clean break at any point and there's just been this lagging continuity of contact and intimacy. I think that's a scenario where having a no contact period and really just committing to yourself that you're going to do that and follow through is extremely important. I've talked about self trust a lot on the show before, but I really think that nothing harms your sense of self trust like continuing to knowingly participate in dynamics that you know, deep down are really not healthy for you and yet you do it from this place of, oh, but I can't help it. I think that's a really disempowered thing and it's not really honest because you can help it. You just have to prioritise your longer term well being over your short term desires or impulses.
0:12:05.80 → 0:12:39.72
And of course that takes a level of emotional maturity and capacity. But you can do that and the more that you do it. So every time you say no to meeting up, or that you don't answer the phone, or that you respond to a text saying, we're not talking and just holding the boundary rather than engaging, every time you do that, you're building that self trust muscle. So if it's that first situation of continuity of contact, you've never quite disentangled. I really, really encourage you to have a firm boundary with a clean break and a no contact period of at least three months, maybe up to six months.
0:12:39.82 → 0:13:30.17
And then if it makes sense, you can slowly start to renegotiate what a friendship might look like down the track. But you do need that time to have space from one another and to figure out what your life looks like without them being such a daily feature of it. The next situation that I want to speak to is where your ex contacts you periodically wanting to rekindle, or maybe not even in so many words. It's just like you get the occasional text from them checking in and in a way that feels kind of suggestive and like they're keeping that channel open and you find it difficult not to engage or respond. Now, I think this one really to me has a lot of like for people who are in anxious avoidant kind of relationship, I think they can fall into this one really, really easily.
0:13:30.33 → 0:14:25.24
So if you are more anxious and your ex was more avoidant and they pop their head up every so often and reach out rather than just holding the boundary or seeing it for what it is, your impulse is likely to be, oh, what does this mean and what do they want? And do you think it's because they miss me or do we think it's because of that? And you probably jump on Google and you start trying to figure it out and decipher it. And the idea of not responding is like the most herculean effort imaginable because everything in your being says not only I want connection with this person that I have an attachment to, but also I want the information, I want to know what it means. And so it really, really takes a lot of self discipline to not take the bait in that situation, to not message back, to not find out what they're up to, to not find out why they're messaging you, to not try and dig deeper.
0:14:25.30 → 0:15:14.22
And to the extent that they do miss you or they are reaching out for that reason, to not really relish the fact that that might be the case, to be able to just say, like, no matter what their intention is, we broke up, and we're having this period of designated space. And I know that that's for the best, and I know that that's supportive. For me to be able to actually just say that and not take debate takes a huge amount of self discipline and then that's a really important internal boundary for you to hold. But I promise you your self trust and your self respect will be so much stronger for it. So having that internal line and then to the extent that this person is persistent or is not really taking the message, I promise you that if you hold firm they will get the point.
0:15:14.35 → 0:15:52.92
But when you are indirect and you tiptoe around it and you try and do it in a really sweet likeable way so that you can maintain whatever impression they have of you as being very amicable and accommodating at all times, again, that can't be the priority. You need to keep yourself safe. You need to keep yourself emotionally hygienic and clean. And if that means just holding a firm line and disengaging even if it feels abrasive, I think that ultimately that is in your best interest. And again, full permission to put yourself first when you're navigating boundaries with an ex.
0:15:53.05 → 0:17:10.11
Now, the third and final situation that I want to speak to, which is a little bit more complicated as I alluded to at the start where there are these structural factors that mean you can't have a clean break with someone. So this might be where you and your ex co parent or you work together and you struggle to navigate those boundaries. This really requires us to find some sort of in between boundary whereby we're able to coexist peacefully in a way that allows us to be civil and doesn't SAP us of a lot of energy by being actively involved in dynamics that are either confusing because there's residual love and feelings there or there's a lot of animosity. I think that just declining to participate in those aspects of the relationship and keeping it pretty, not so much formal but somewhat distanced while still coexisting in whatever manner is required of you. So in the example of co parenting, if you know that there are certain triggers in that relationship, for example, someone being unreliable or hard to contact and you need to rely on them because you co parent and you need to be
0:17:10.12 → 0:17:26.29
able to go between each other's houses or whatever it might be, having very clear boundaries and expectations as between you on how that arrangement is going to work and just not leaving any room for those triggers to arise and clearly stipulating ahead of time.
0:17:26.38 → 0:18:30.52
For example, if I can't contact you when you're meant to be available, here is what I'm going to do with that. So having as much structure and really pragmatic, practical, pre agreed, almost like rules or governance in the relationship as a way to support yourself, to not be so emotionally open to this person in a way that is likely to pull you back into old dynamics to the extent that that is disruptive of your peace. Now, of course, if you have a really beautiful relationship with an ex and there's no kind of emotional gunk there, there's no real residue and you're able to just peacefully co parent or peacefully coexist at work or wherever else, then that is perfectly wonderful. This episode is really not to say that you need to introduce really hardcore boundaries where they're not needed. So of course, take all of this with a grain of salt and with a level of discernment.
0:18:30.66 → 0:19:16.60
But to the extent that you are struggling in finding healthy boundaries with an ex in any of these situations or any other situation, my hope is that today's episode will have given you a bit of a feel for not only that permission slip to put yourself first in those situations that you are really allowed to prioritise your well being and your needs and preferences in that situation. While of course, always being kind and respectful, you're allowed to put yourself first even if it means someone else is disappointed or hurt or upset. And I hope that in giving you those situational examples, that you've got a bit more context for specifically how you might tackle those situations. So I really hope that's been helpful. As always.
0:19:16.70 → 0:19:36.38
Super grateful for anyone who could leave a rating or a review. Let me know what you thought of this episode. If you're listening on Spotify, you can leave a response just to the episode underneath, share it with the people in your life, share it on social media. Super helpful for me and it really is so supportive. So I appreciate all of you being here and listening every week.
0:19:36.48 → 0:20:03.90
Otherwise, thanks so much for being here and I will see you later in the week. Thanks guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
Breaking the Cycle of Situationships
Ever been stuck in a situationship, that in-between space where you're more than purely casual but not truly committed? In today's episode, we're unboxing this modern dating conundrum.
We're peeling back the layers of why we find ourselves in these non-committal scenarios, particularly exploring the attachment drives that can both lead to and exacerbate this dynamic. More importantly, we'll explore how to opt out of this challenging cycle and pave our way towards healthier relationships.
Ever been stuck in a situationship, that in-between space where you're more than purely casual but not truly committed? In today's episode, we're diving deep into the world of situationships - the gray area between dating and being in a committed relationship. We'll explore the challenges faced by individuals in situationships, the role of attachment dynamics, and most importantly, how to break free from this cycle.
In today's modern dating landscape, situationships have become increasingly common. Individuals find themselves caught in a web of blurred lines, where accountability, responsibility, and duty often take a backseat. The anonymity provided by online dating and technology allows people to keep multiple options open and avoid taking on the commitment or labels associated with a traditional relationship.
While situationships may fall short of what people truly desire in a relationship, it's important to understand why individuals find themselves participating in these relationships even when they desire more. Many hope that they can change the other person's mind and make them fall in love, while others simply enjoy the benefits of emotional intimacy without the emotional labor of a committed relationship.
Attachment dynamics can also play a significant role in perpetuating situationships. A person with an anxious attachment style, driven by a strong desire to prove themselves and earn love, may find themselves gravitating towards hesitant partners. Unfortunately, leaning on potential rather than facing reality can lead to a destructive mindset that erodes self-worth and rarely ends in a successful, loving relationship.
Breaking Free from the Situationship Cycle
Self-Reflection and Awareness
Recognising our own role in perpetuating unhealthy dynamics is crucial. We must become aware of our own tendencies, such as being indirect or not speaking up for our needs. This self-awareness allows us to identify patterns and make conscious decisions to break free.
Clarity and Boundaries
It is essential to be clear on our own needs and boundaries. It's easy to bend the rules for someone we are interested in, but establishing non-negotiables and making decisions in line with our personal goals sets the stage for healthier relationships.
Believing Actions over Words
When someone says they are not looking for a relationship, it's important to believe them. Actions often speak louder than words, and even though it may be difficult to hear, trusting their actions will prevent us from clinging to false hopes and prolonging our own suffering.
Embracing Discomfort
Breaking the cycle requires us to be comfortable with discomfort. It may feel daunting to be direct with someone and risk losing the connection altogether. However, holding onto an approximation of a connection is ultimately a disservice to ourselves. Sometimes, the path to finding lasting love requires taking the road less traveled.
Breaking free from the cycle of situationships will not happen overnight. It requires self-reflection, awareness, and above all, the courage to prioritise our own needs and well-being. By setting clear boundaries, recognising red flags, and embracing discomfort, we can break free from the confines of situationships and pave the way for healthier, more fulfilling relationships.
If you're struggling with attachment issues, remember that change is possible. Join the waitlist for Healing Anxious Attachment, where you'll learn valuable strategies to foster self-love, build healthy relationships, and break free from the patterns that have held you back.
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.09 → 0:00:47.56
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. Um hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode we're going to be talking all about the dreaded situation ship. So for anyone who's not familiar with the term situationship, this is one of those dynamics in the dating process whereby you're kind of in a relationship but kind of not in a relationship.
0:00:47.69 → 0:01:32.62
It might look and feel like a relationship, but you haven't actually progressed to that stage and so you are lingering in limbo or no man's land. And for obvious reasons that can throw up a lot of challenges, particularly if you're someone who leans more towards anxious attachment because having that degree of uncertainty and a lack of clarity around the structure of the relationship, its future, how someone feels about you, all of those things can be really, really hard. It runs counter to everything that you want and need in order to feel safe and secure in relationships. And yet, unfortunately, situationships are extremely prevalent in modern dating and it's something that a lot of people really struggle with. I know because I get so many messages from people.
0:01:32.99 → 0:02:14.51
So I'm going to be talking about some of the drivers of this on both sides. Why someone might hold on to a situation and not want to commit and why you might participate in a situationship even though you really do want the relationship to be more than that. Why do we stay in these situationships that are clearly falling short of what we really want? And as you can imagine, there are plenty of attachment dynamics that we can overlay onto that that can offer us some really useful insights. Alongside that, I'm obviously going to give you hopefully some tips for how to break and shift out of that cycle if it is something that you find yourself stuck in and isn't where you want to be.
0:02:14.60 → 0:02:57.87
So that's what we're going to be talking about today. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements you might have heard me share late last week, that the waitlist for Healing Anxious Attachment is open and the course will be relaunching in a few weeks time towards the end of July. For those who are new here, Healing Anxious Attachment is my signature programme. Over 1000 people have gone through this, which is just incredible to be able to say. It's a very comprehensive programme, you get lifetime access, it's an eight week, eight modules, a couple of live calls with me and it really distils down all of the tools and knowledge that you need to cultivate a secure way of being in relationship with yourself and with other people.
0:02:57.99 → 0:03:30.39
So really breaking down all of these concepts and tools that I teach in a really systematic and structured way. So if you're someone who struggles with anxious attachment and you're keen to dive into my work on a deeper level, definitely join the waitlist via the link in my bio that will ensure that you get a spot in the programme at the early bird price when doors open in a few weeks time. So I will link that in the show. Notes the second quick announcement is just to share the featured review for today, which is having gone through a broken engagement, I hunkered down and started a healing and growing journey. This podcast has been so eye opening and helpful.
0:03:30.44 → 0:03:54.64
I would not be where I am today without listening and seriously looking at myself without this podcast. Thank you so much for that review. I'm so glad that it's been a source of comfort and insight in a challenging period. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around situationships.
0:03:54.78 → 0:04:49.91
So, as I said in the introduction, a situationship is obviously not a technical term, right? So I don't think that we could rely on any one dictionary definition of this to tell us what a situation is and to tell you if you're in one. But in my mind, it's something that's undefined, something that's falling short of a committed relationship but probably has more regular involvement and intimacy than a purely casual, unattached hookup. So the situationship is not, oh, I've been on two dates with this person and I don't know where we stand yet, and get something that's a notch above a purely casual arrangement, but it hasn't progressed to that next level. And I think another defining feature is it's probably lingering in that in between space rather than something that is just adopting a normal pace of progression and you move through that stage relatively quickly or in a pace that makes sense.
0:04:50.06 → 0:05:40.45
You're kind of hanging out in that limbo for maybe it's weeks, maybe it's months. When I put this out to Instagram, asking my community there to describe and share their experience of situation. Ships some people said that they've been in situationships for years. So being in these undefined, not really sure what we're doing, but we're clearly attached and involved in some way, but without any clarity as to really what the arrangement was or where it was going. So, needless to say, being in that level of doubt and uncertainty, insofar as your relationship status and where you stand with someone is concerned, that is going to be really, really hard for most people, particularly those who lean towards anxious attachment, for whom any sort of uncertainty can be really challenging.
0:05:40.50 → 0:06:48.16
So having fundamental structural uncertainty with someone who you are emotionally attached to in some way is going to bring up a lot of your stuff, right? So some of the things that you might hear in a situation shift, I think these are some other defining features, are regular enough contact and communication. So this might be someone that you're spending time with, seeing regularly, having regular contact with, they're kind of acting like your partner, but with no strings attached, so with no accountability, with no responsibility, with no real sense of duty or obligation. So you don't feel like you have any right or entitlement to rely on them or to expect anything from them because you're not dating, right? You're just seeing each other or you're just something to each other, but you're not actually in that next stage whereby you feel like you are able to ask something of them or to be upset with them or any number of other things that would go with being in a relationship.
0:06:48.53 → 0:08:00.79
So someone that you're in a situation with might say things like I don't like labels or let's just see where it goes, or I'm not looking for anything serious, all the while acting like they're in a relationship with you to the extent that it benefits them, right? So it's kind of all upside and very little downside for the person who is holding out on the relationship progressing to the next level. So unfortunately, I think that modern dating has seen a rise in these situation ships alongside other unfortunate phenomena like Ghosting, because there's a lot of anonymity and very little accountability. So because we're all meeting people on dating apps and it's all happening behind screens and oftentimes separate from social groups and social settings, where it kind of takes you into the real world and makes you accountable. When all of these things are happening in private and happening via technology, it's really easy for people to have a cake and eat it too, to feel like there is always more available, so people are less likely to sign up for things that require them to take responsibility because that requires them to sacrifice something.
0:08:00.94 → 0:09:08.07
And so there's this sense of not wanting to do that unless they absolutely have to. So that then begs the question of why, on the other side, if you are the person who feels stuck in a situation but doesn't want that, wants it to be more than that, why would you participate in this dynamic when it's uncomfortable and harmful and feels like a dead end? So again, I asked this to my instagram community and overwhelmingly the response that I got was I went into it hoping that I could change their mind, right? I went along with it, I agreed to participate, I bit my tongue about the things that bothered me and did so in the hope that eventually they would change their mind, that they would see how amazing I am, that they would fall in love with me, that they'd realise they can't live without me. And so their initial hesitation or their initial reservations would fall away and then we would progress into a proper, serious relationship and live happily ever after, right?
0:09:08.19 → 0:10:12.74
So there's a lot of hanging, our hopes on potential rather than engaging with what is in front of us. And you will have heard me say before that this is a really easy trap to fall into as someone who leans more anxious, because not only are we very motivated by connection, but there is this very strong drive to prove yourself to someone, to earn love, to strive to perform and shapeshift. And so someone who shows some interest, that gets us hooked, right? And then if they are hesitant or reluctant in some way, whereas a more secure person might see that as a sign to walk away, a sign of incompatibility or a lack of interest, but someone who's more anxious and struggles with unworthiness, it's kind of like, game on. That's my cue to roll up my sleeves and change your mind, to convince you of my worth, and in doing so, hopefully convince myself of my own worth.
0:10:12.86 → 0:11:11.29
But suffice it to say, that's a really, really dark road to go down, because as many people attested to when I was having this conversation with them on Instagram, it destroys your self worth, right, because you feel like you've wasted all of this time and a lot of the time it doesn't turn into anything. I would say overwhelmingly, more often than not, it doesn't turn into anything because when people are saying they don't want a relationship, they usually don't want a relationship. They're happy to play pretend on a relationship, but ultimately not have to deal with the hard stuff of a relationship. They just, as I said, get all the upside of closeness and intimacy and sex and company without actually having to have hard conversations or do any emotional labour or be depended on by someone when things get hard. So I think that it's really important to believe someone when they tell you that they're not looking for a relationship, if that's what they say.
0:11:11.38 → 0:12:12.75
I think if we were to say that's probably the first tip of breaking the cycle of situations is if someone is saying something to you that is brutally honest, like, I'm not looking for a relationship or any of those things in that vein, they're probably telling the truth. And that is not your invitation to make it your mission to change their mind or to be the one to save them or rescue them or make them suddenly available when historically they've been unavailable. Don't see that as your challenge. Now, I think it's really important to also recognise the ways in which we perpetuate these dynamics, because, as always, it's very easy to blame the emotionally unavailable, manipulative, immature person who reeled us in and fed us breadcrumbs and tricked us, right? So many people will say that they'll say I didn't realise and at first it was like this and then all of a sudden it was like that and I got blindsided.
0:12:12.80 → 0:13:16.61
And it's not to say that can't happen and doesn't happen, but I think oftentimes we tell ourselves that it was more complicated or murky or that we got tricked when really we were being willfully blind to what was in front of us. And I think in the case where someone is inconsistent and unreliable and flaky from the outset, more or less particularly beyond that very initial rush of chemicals, when you're all very excited about each other, once it transitions into something more steady if someone pulls back and is only very intermittently available if they become unreliable and uncommunicative. But then they show up and want to hang out every so often, but only on their terms. I think that people tell themselves that that's really confusing and opaque and hard to read when really the writing is on the wall. So this is all exacerbated by the fact that, again, for someone who leans more anxious, who struggles with unworthiness, your tendency is likely to be very conflict averse.
0:13:16.74 → 0:14:00.38
And particularly in those stages where you don't feel secure enough with this person to raise any of your concerns. It's likely that you're going to be in a very hyper vigilant mode of observing everything and maybe tiptoeing and maybe lightly trying to suggest or influence and hint at things, but not being very direct in your communication, not really advocating for yourself, not saying, here's what I want. What do you want? It's very much playing into the whole thing, being on the other person's terms, and I understand where that tendency comes from. Of course I'm worried that if I am direct with you that it'll push you away and then I'll lose the connection.
0:14:00.41 → 0:14:52.01
So I'd rather hold on to this approximation of a connection than have nothing at all. And of course, we can have so much sympathy for the part of us that is so hungry for love and connection that anything feels better than nothing, while also recognising how much it's costing us to play along in that and to put our sense of self on the line. For someone who's not really showing consistent, sustained interest and effort, it really is very painful in the long run, as you probably don't need me to tell you, right? It is exhausting and disappointing. And I think it erodes our self trust and our self respect, because I think a part of us knows that in real time, and yet we're too scared to walk away, we're too scared to say that we want more, we're too scared to really own our needs and our desires and our preferences.
0:14:52.83 → 0:15:27.27
So with all of that being said, what do we do to break this cycle? Of course, as with any cycle, it's not something that you're just going to flip a switch overnight and all of a sudden, all of your dating woes will be resolved and all of your patterns will have disappeared. But with that being said, I do think there are some simple ish, if not easy, simple things that you can do to start breaking this cycle if you do find yourself in that situation. Ship trap. So as with all cycles, you need to get clear on the ways in which you participate in perpetuating it.
0:15:27.30 → 0:15:56.20
And I've just outlined some of the things that you might observe in yourself. Those tendencies to lay low, to be indirect, to not speak up, to not be forthcoming about where you're at and what you want. I think you need to know that for yourself. And I think you really need to know what your bottom line is and what your non negotiables are. Because without that, it's really easy to start bending the rules for someone that you're excited about and that you really want to hold on to a connection with.
0:15:56.30 → 0:16:51.72
Whereas if you've got that level of clarity for yourself on here's what I'm looking for, here's what I'm available for, and here's what I'm not available for, then you've made the decision in advance and all you need to do is execute on it, right? Whereas if you're trying to make that decision in real time, when there's a person in front of you that you really want to build a relationship with and you really want to ignore all of the evidence that is pointing to the fact that that is not going to happen. It becomes much murkier and requires extreme levels of self discipline and self control to actually follow through on that and make that decision when we're already attached. So try and be really clear and self responsible ahead of time in setting those boundaries for yourself. What am I available for if I'm not available for some approximation of a relationship that drags on for months on end without any kind of clarity or consistency, without any sustained effort or interest, let it go.
0:16:51.82 → 0:17:35.14
Please believe that there is more for you than that, but you're not going to find it if you're wasting your time with people who are not interested in you enough to really make that effort. If someone says that they're not looking for a relationship, believe them. This is one of those things where it's one of those exceptions to that saying of if someone's words and actions don't match up, believe their actions. I think that that's good advice, except for where someone's words are the harder thing to hear. So if words and actions don't match up, when someone's words are making promises or commitments or big sweeping things, when the words are exactly what you want to hear but the actions don't stack up, believe the actions.
0:17:35.20 → 0:17:55.53
But when the words are not the thing you want to hear. When someone is saying, I do not want to be in a relationship with you, but their actions say otherwise. Believe their words, because their words are hard, right? Their words are them being honest, whereas their actions are probably them having their cake and eating it too. So I know that that's hard to hear.
0:17:55.62 → 0:18:23.93
I know that everything within us wants to believe otherwise. But that's one of those things that I think you should really take at face value. And I don't know about you, but for me, I don't want to be in a relationship that I've had to really fight for someone to want. I think that that's a really hard thing to build on. And I say that having been in that situation, I was in something that we could call a situation for many months and it ultimately did turn into a relationship and a long term one.
0:18:23.97 → 0:19:07.54
But it was really unhealthy. Very unsurprisingly, because it was built on this foundation of a lack of trust and a lack of respect and just feeling so insecure from the outset because it hadn't started on very good terms. And I think that that is probably going to be true in the few cases where the situation becomes something more is it's just not a very nice start. It's a start where you feel like you've had to persuade someone to be in a relationship with you at all and that's just setting the power imbalance at a really skewed level. That's not going to set you up for a relationship based on reciprocity and mutuality and balance and fairness and all of those other things that really allow a relationship to thrive.
0:19:07.68 → 0:19:37.94
So take someone at face value, take their behaviour and their words at face value, particularly when those things are pointing to them not wanting to be in a relationship, if that is what you want. So I hope that that has been helpful, as always. If you've enjoyed this episode, let me know. Leave a review, leave a comment on Spotify, leave a rating, share it with the people in your life. All of that is hugely helpful for me in continuing to reach more people with the show, but otherwise I look forward to seeing you later in the week.
0:19:37.99 → 0:19:59.33
Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much.
0:19:59.45 → 0:20:02.06
Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
How to Care Less About Others' Opinions (For the Recovering People Pleaser)
Are you feeling stuck in the perennial battle between seeking external validation and staying true to your authentic self? In today's Q&A episode, I'm sharing some thoughts on how to detach from unhealthy people-pleasing behaviours that ask us to trade our authenticity for belonging and approval.
Are you feeling stuck in the perennial battle between seeking external validation and staying true to your authentic self? In today's Q&A episode, I'm sharing some thoughts on how to detach from unhealthy people-pleasing behaviours that ask us to trade our authenticity for belonging and approval.
This episode challenges you to take a deeper look into your people pleasing tendencies, learn to channel them more intentionally, and cultivate self-worth and self-respect. The goal? To build an internal foundation that allows us to handle criticism and rejection without losing our sense of self.
Listen in as we explore the importance of cultivating conscious awareness around our patterns, discuss how to become more comfortable with who you are, and share practical tips to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships.
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Join the waitlist for Healing Anxious Attachment
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.09 → 0:00:42.93
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. You hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I am answering the question of how do I stop caring about other people's opinions so much as someone who is a recovering people pleaser.
0:00:43.06 → 0:01:51.85
So I'm sure that this is a question that a lot of people, myself included, will relate to, because I think, to varying degrees, all of us struggle with that tussle between not wanting to be overly reliant on external. Validation or shaping ourselves around what we think will get us the approval and acceptance of others while also not losing ourselves in the process. And I think it is yet another area where there's a bit of mess and a bit of nuance. So I'm hoping that in today's episode I can share some thoughts on that and share some tips on how to build up a stronger sense of self so that we are more resilient to the feedback of others, while not swinging too far in the other direction of totally insulating ourselves and having a false bravado around, not caring what other people think at all. Because I think that to the extent people purport to be completely immune to other people's feedback and opinions and criticism, I think that's maybe not totally honest because I think most of us do care about what other people think to varying degrees.
0:01:51.93 → 0:02:13.75
So that's what I'm going to be chatting through today. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. The first being that healing, anxious attachment, which many of you would know is my signature course, is opening up again for enrollment later this month. It's an eight week course. Over 1000 people have gone through the programme and it will be back.
0:02:13.82 → 0:02:50.04
This will be the fifth time I'll be running it. I know that a lot of you are already on the waitlist, but if you are interested in joining, do sign up to the Waitlist via the link in the Show Notes because that will guarantee you early bird pricing and first access when doors open towards the end of the month. So jump into the link in the Show Notes or head straight to my website if you're interested in learning more about the programme and joining that waitlist. The second quick announcement is just to share the featured review today, which is a best friend advice in my ears. This podcast has been a comforting resource to turn to whenever I'm feeling anxious, confused or doubt.
0:02:50.07 → 0:03:12.58
For the last ten months, I've been moving through the toughest long term breakup I've ever experienced. Stephanie and her coming words and advice have been invaluable to me on this heart, healing journey. Thanks for allowing me to better understand my attachment style and assisting me in my personal growth. Thank you so much for that beautiful and heartfelt review. It's really lovely to hear and I'm so glad that you found some solace in the podcast.
0:03:12.72 → 0:03:49.87
If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around how do I stop caring about other people's opinions as a recovering people pleaser. So maybe we take a step back to start and look at what people pleasing is like so many of our behaviours, whether we like them or not, people pleasing is a protective strategy. It's one that we've learned somewhere along the way because a part of us is afraid of what would happen if people didn't like us. And that's pretty primal.
0:03:49.92 → 0:04:27.06
I think that we're very social animals, social creatures and we are wired for connection and belonging. Those are pretty base needs of us as humans. And so it makes sense that it would feel important to our sense of safety that we are part of the in crowd, right? That we have a sense of social cohesion and acceptance and belonging. And I think that people pleasing can emerge from that fundamental need as a way to try and manage those dynamics and create a sense of safety for us via the acceptance of the group.
0:04:27.43 → 0:05:11.30
Now, as always, my personal view is not one that is black and white. So I don't think we have to say people pleasing is bad. I think rather, we can look at the ways in which it helps us and the ways in which it gets in the way of our authentic expression and authentic connection with people to the extent that we are performing. Or representing a false view of ourselves or suppressing parts of us that we fear would hinder that pursuit of getting accepted by the group. So I think that having that perspective of not people pleasing is bad and it's something that I need to stop because I'm such a terrible people pleaser.
0:05:11.41 → 0:06:12.45
I think that in some circumstances being sensitive to and attuned to what is going to contribute to social harmony or cohesion or is going to allow us to build a relationship or is going out of our way to be helpful to someone. Those are not inherently bad traits or behaviours, we just need to channel them deliberately as with all of these things. So the more we can bring conscious awareness to and intentionality to the ways in which we utilise these behaviours, I think the better off will be. So then this question of how do I stop caring about other people's opinions as a recovering people pleaser? I think at the heart of this is how can I become more comfortable and self assured in who I am and the choices that I make such that I am less prone to meltdown if I get feedback from someone or criticism from someone or rejection.
0:06:13.27 → 0:06:48.91
That really shakes me to my core because I think that if we've taken people pleasing to the extreme such that we don't really have a very defined sense of self, we don't know within us who am I, what do I care about? What do I think? What are my opinions? What are my values? If we've spent a lifetime shape shifting and deferring to the opinions and values and needs and preferences of everyone around us in this tireless effort to be accepted and approved of, then we don't really have much of a foundation within ourselves.
0:06:49.57 → 0:07:31.19
And I think that can lead to a level of loneliness and self abandonment that can be really challenging. Because when we've totally outsourced that sense of self and validation and we don't have that internal relationship, then of course if someone does reject us or disapprove of us, it's going to feel incredibly high stakes, right? Because we've put 100% of our self worth in the hands of something outside of us. So I think that cultivating self worth and self respect as always. It's almost like all roads lead back to that, right?
0:07:31.23 → 0:08:13.58
You would have heard me speak about that many times before on the podcast. If we can have enough of a foundation within ourselves, that we know what our values are, we know what our boundaries are, we stand up for ourselves, we advocate for ourselves. We are kind and thoughtful and considerate and sensitive and all of those traits that are positive while also not losing ourselves in the process. Then if someone doesn't like it, it might be uncomfortable, right? It's not to say that if we just develop self worth, then all of a sudden we're this super duper confident person who is not at all impacted by the thoughts or opinions of others.
0:08:14.19 → 0:09:14.41
But we have a bit. More distance from it, and we have a stronger base from which we can say, oh, okay, that feels uncomfortable, but it's not completely destroying my sense of self. I'm not going to spiral into a really dark, shame ridden place because I'm not taking some other person's opinion as definitive of who I am. And I think that that is what happens when we don't have enough of an internal anchor is that if someone says that we are, whatever, not attractive enough or smart enough or they don't like us, usually when that has a really deep impact, it's because it's confirming our worst fears about ourselves, right? When we take someone else's opinion and we use it as evidence in support of the stories and the wounds that are very deep within us, that's when it feels very high stakes and very earth shattering.
0:09:14.49 → 0:10:12.38
So I think the more we can build up that self relationship and the more that we can tend to those wounded parts within us that have those fears of nobody likes me, I'm a failure, I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm an imposter, I'm not whatever. The more we can tend to those wounds within ourselves, the less likely we are to be really deeply affected by the thoughts or opinions of other people to the extent that they get at those core wounds. So it's not about how can I have this, as I said, like a false bravado or this veneer of I don't care what anyone thinks, because I don't really buy that. I think that most people who purport to be totally immune to being affected by other people's opinions are not being totally honest. And I think that's okay.
0:10:12.43 → 0:11:04.90
I think we can hopefully get to a place where, as always, we find our way to the middle, where I have enough of a sense of self that I'm comfortable with who I am and I'm comfortable with my choices and my behaviours. But I'm not so defensive that I need to shut out all criticism or feedback, right? Because that's not healthy either, if we're so rigid that we can't take any of it because that feels too challenging or too uncomfortable. It's just the other extreme. So we really want to find our way to this place of a strong enough foundation that we're comfortable with who we are, while also being able to selectively take on feedback and criticism and influence from other people who we trust and whose opinion we value.
0:11:05.27 → 0:11:54.67
But that level of discernment and openness comes with internal security. And so it all really does lead back to this need to cultivate self worth and self respect. And as I said, I've spoken about that a lot on the podcast, because I really do think that it's not only incredibly powerful in your relationship with yourself, but it's really practical. Unlike something like self love, which can feel a little abstract and out of reach for most people, things like self respect and self worth are much more concrete in that we can translate them into action and those actions compound over time and we can really see a lot of progress very quickly. So I hope that that has helped you in giving a bit of a sense of what that might look like.
0:11:54.87 → 0:12:35.03
Not so much stopping caring about other people's opinions, but not being so easily swayed or so susceptible to melt down at rejection or challenging feedback in a way that really rocks you to your core and fundamentally alters your sense of self worth. So I do hope that that has been helpful, as always. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be super grateful if you could leave a rating or a review, share it on social media. All of those things are hugely helpful for me in continuing to grow the podcast and reach more people. But otherwise, I look forward to seeing you again next week.
0:12:35.12 → 0:12:36.08
Thanks, guys.
0:12:38.13 → 0:13:00.26
Thanks for joining me for this episode of on attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
The Art of Secure Relating with Stan Tatkin
In today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by the one & only Stan Tatkin, PsyD, MFT. Stan is a clinician, researcher, teacher, and developer of PACT (a Psychobiological Approach to Couple Therapy), as well as being a prolific author of several best-selling books such as Wired for Love and most recently, In Each Other's Care. Stan joins me to chat with me about how we can experience conflict within relationships in a safe way and really build secure foundations in our relationships.
In today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by the one & only Stan Tatkin, PsyD, MFT. Stan is a clinician, researcher, teacher, and developer of PACT (a Psychobiological Approach to Couple Therapy), as well as being a prolific author of several best-selling books such as Wired for Love and most recently, In Each Other's Care.
In this episode, Stan joins me to chat with me about how we can experience conflict within relationships in a safe way and really build secure foundations in our relationships.
We'll cover:
How launching into self-protecting patterns can harm our relationships
The concept of secure functioning in a relationship
How regret can be a powerful teacher
The concept of the couple bubble
Finding acceptance for our partner's imperfections
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.09 → 0:00:33.76
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Stan Tatkin.
0:00:33.90 → 0:01:00.46
If you don't know Stan, he is an author, a rather prolific author and couples therapist. He's also the founder or co creator of the Pact Institute. And today we're going to be talking all about conflict in relationships and how we can experience conflict in a safe way and really build secure foundations in our relationships so that we can grow together through conflict. Stan, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.
0:01:00.59 → 0:01:16.90
Thank you, Stephanie. It's really nice meeting you. Yeah, likewise. So your book that has just been released is called In Each Other's Care a Guide to the Most Common Relationship Conflicts and how to Work Through Them. I must say, I love the title of in each other's care.
0:01:16.95 → 0:01:54.98
There's something very beautiful and tender about that. Thank you. Actually, that is a phrase that was there from the very beginning when I developed Pact. It was based on a psychobiological notion that human beings, human primates, are built to co regulate or mutually regulate in close proximity, particularly face to face, eye to eye. And so couple therapy had been focused on, I think, self regulation more.
0:01:55.67 → 0:02:39.58
And the way it works, starting with infants and caregivers, is this is the motion, nobody can see this, but I'm crossing my hands over. Instead of being in your own care, in the primary attachment relationship, you're actually in each other's care. And that's actually more efficient and a better way to think and operate than being in one's own care only, which is a one person psychological system. Yeah. It's ironic, though, isn't it, that a lot of the time we've launched so quickly into self protective patterns and maybe we forget about the part of our responsibility to be in each other's care.
0:02:39.63 → 0:03:14.33
And that co regulation, that reciprocity of care. Because I think we can become very self centred or self absorbed when we launch into that self protective pattern, when we are feeling threatened in our relationship. So it feels like there's this tussle at play, and that in intimate relationships, sometimes that person who's closest to us can raise the alarm more than anyone else in our systems. Well, the reason for that is because we recognise each other, especially if it's a family member. Right?
0:03:14.40 → 0:04:23.78
We recognise each other and we have a memory and a history of threat cues, of facial expressions and vocal tone and movements and postures and gestures, but also words and phrases that trigger a threat memory. So that's family. But when you fall in love and you find somebody that you want to be with. There's a general belief in pair bonding with humans that we only pair bond with people with whom we recognise and find familiar enough, which means that we're going to be proxies for everything and everybody that we've experienced going all the way back to childhood. So that's why it's so difficult because we're memory animals and we also have a survival instinct and you would think that we would know the difference between friend and foe and be able to hold on to an idea that this is our child, this is our partner, this is the person I love.
0:04:24.31 → 0:04:42.31
But we're easily threatened and when we are, our brain changes and we revert to self protection and that's unfortunately, fortunately the human condition, it knows no gender, no sex, no culture.
0:04:44.73 → 0:05:24.57
It is all of us. And that's one of the struggles that we have to recognise and learn how to override our primitive nature. Yeah. And it's been a huge part of my own personal journey. And the work that I do with other people is cultivating a level of mastery, or at the very least, conscious awareness over those triggers and going, okay, if I'm launching into physiologically, in a very felt sense, kind of way, rather than just following the feeling and acting on it, can I get curious about what it is about this situation or this moment, this dynamic that feels unsafe to me?
0:05:24.66 → 0:06:04.23
Can I dig a little deeper and approach myself with a level of curiosity rather than just launching into an attack on my partner or defensiveness or any of the other things that we can so easily fall into? Well, even your mentioning of the word curiosity sets you apart from most. Most people are not curious. Most people are not curious in relationship, they're not curious about themselves, their history, they're not curious about how their mind works and they're not curious of how their partner's mind works. That is unfortunately a very small part of the world population.
0:06:04.33 → 0:06:45.95
Most of us are just going about our day, doing what we think is right based on our upbringing, based on our family culture, based on what we know and what we've experienced in our lives and that's about it. The only people that do question I think are people that are enriched in their environment. But even those people, I believe there has to be some suffering in one's life to motivate one to be interested oneself another. It's great that you think about curiosity. I wish most more people did.
0:06:46.10 → 0:07:28.28
Yeah, I think that you're right. I think there's a level of suffering or struggle and we get to a point where we can't just claim victimhood anymore without looking. Certainly if we want to make meaningful change we have to take responsibility and go, okay, what's actually going on here? Because if I'm just living out the same pattern, the same variations on a theme in consecutive relationships or even within the same relationship, there's something there to look at. And I think that with any of these things, it's an invitation into curiosity and to go, okay, can I approach myself with that lens of what is going on here?
0:07:28.41 → 0:08:01.16
Regret. Lots of studies on regret being essential for learning. And Peter Fonnie, wonderful psychoanalyst and thinker in Britain, and somebody who studies infants as well, did a study on people who don't regret. And these are basically people who are doing gambling and whether they learn from their mistakes. And he found, and others found that people who don't regret don't change, they don't learn.
0:08:01.77 → 0:08:33.29
And so loss and regret, remorse, grieving is an essential part of growing up and becoming a better, wiser, smarter person. Yeah. And I think there's such an important distinction between regret, which can guide us to course correct, and shame, which tends to sink us into numbing or low self worth and can keep us stuck. But I agree. I think regret can be a very powerful teacher if we're willing to learn the lessons here.
0:08:33.38 → 0:09:23.70
Regret, I'm thinking less about shame because that's not a change agent either, but more aligned with guilt, more aligned with loss, a higher level of development than simply being ashamed. Yeah. So maybe we could take a step back and talk a little more about this concept of secure functioning that you set out in the book. Relatedly I remember from Wired for Love, one of your earlier books, this concept of the couple bubble. I would love for you to give us a bit of an overview of those concepts and maybe set the scene on what we can hope for and what we should be working to build in our relationships and the importance of that secure unit at the heart of a relationship.
0:09:24.15 → 0:10:08.69
So a lot of my thinking comes from research and science, but I've always been a clinician at heart, even though I love teaching clinician at heart. And the challenge has always been how to make the science understandable to a lay audience, but also how to communicate. That my work with my clients, right? And so that's been a constant. At the bottom of this has to do with what we understand about our species and what we understand about infant attachment and attachment throughout the lifespan and then also how the brain develops, particularly the social, emotional brain throughout.
0:10:08.71 → 0:10:50.85
The lifespan and the differences between us all in terms of our abilities, our diversity, in terms of being able to operate under different conditions, especially stress. So the couple bubble comes from the idea that we are a species that forms dyads and herds. And so we're particularly diadic. I know they're outliers people that are not, but we tend to form diads. And those diads replicate the earliest DIAD or the earliest experiences of dependency with our caregivers.
0:10:50.95 → 0:11:31.56
And so it operates by certain rules, whether we like it or not. It's just there's a biology behind primacy that if you and I are in a romantic relationship and we've already feel like we've committed. There's a tendency to expect and to have a certain amount of entitlement to being primary, not secondary or tertiary or being demoted. We're central and other people tend to orbit around us unless we agree otherwise. Right?
0:11:31.69 → 0:12:04.02
So a couple bubble basically is a unit of two operating as a two person psychological system of interdependence. In other words, you and I as adults have the same thing to gain, same things to gain, same things to lose. And we're supposed to be in a free society, a union of shared power and authority. Therefore we protect each other from the environment. This is true throughout the mammalian world.
0:12:04.55 → 0:12:36.83
Peer bonding isn't just for procreation or taking care of the young, but it's also a survival mechanism. We're better in numbers. And so in a dietic situation you and I have to we don't have to, but if we want the relationship to last, we have to operate by certain ideas that if we don't protect each other in public and private, we will view each other as unfriendly, we'll view each other as adversaries.
0:12:38.85 → 0:13:24.92
So we protect each other from each other and everyone else by working together and being sensitive to each other. So the couple bubble basically is our protection from the world that is as it's always been frivolous, unpredictable, indifferent, opportunistic and scary as it's always been. Yeah. So I wonder if the couple bubble is this idea of the relationship comes first and there's this primacy to the relationship unit and we both have this duty to protect that and to protect one another and to prioritise that. I wonder if there are any other examples of maybe principles that come out of the concept of a couple bubble in a more practical or tangible way.
0:13:24.94 → 0:13:53.81
If people are interested in what that might look like in a relationship, how do you establish and protect a couple bubble? So people should understand that secure functioning isn't the same as secure attachment. Secure functioning is based on social contract theory. It's a series of social contracts between you and I. So we don't have a duty of any kind unless we decide that is the case.
0:13:54.01 → 0:14:30.28
So you and I come together to create something called a relationship which actually doesn't really exist in life. It is an abstraction, it's something we co create. And otherwise you can't take a picture of a relationship, you just take a picture of people. So the relationship that you and I have has to have a certain consciousness to it can't be just based on love and attraction, right? It has to be or should be based on purpose.
0:14:30.47 → 0:15:01.07
Why do we exist? What are we going to do? And what are we never going to do? Just like any union that forms because of common interests, common needs, either we need to survive or we need to win or we want to make money or why are we doing this? And so the same with the couple that if we don't, you and I co create, like moulding a block of clay.
0:15:01.57 → 0:16:04.04
We're shaping something that is uniquely ours throughout our time together and that it's based on fairness and justice and mutual sensitivity that we have to work together as allies or we cannot work. If you imagine being in a potato sack race, I don't know if they have potato sack races in Australia, but if you have that image, you know that if you and I were to do that, we would have to work together or we will look ridiculous. If I move ahead of you, we'll both fall. If we pull in different directions, we don't go anywhere. That's the same thing that's this you and I have to find where we are the same and where we agree, so we can move together and create the things we want and to solve the problems that we face without trying to solve each other, which is war.
0:16:04.22 → 0:16:42.10
I love that last line, solving the problems without solving each other. I put out a video last week and it said one of the most loving things you can do is accept your partner. It's really something that we maybe don't realise how consistently we reject or disapprove of or try to change our partner to meet our own ends. And I was met with this barrage of comments from people saying, well, if I accept them the way they are, then I won't get my needs met. And there was this very self protective thing and so I would love you to speak more to that.
0:16:42.20 → 0:16:58.05
How can both of those things exist? How can I accept and love you and how can we negotiate? So there's space for both of us to thrive here. To accept each other as is is to be in reality. Is to be in reality.
0:16:58.63 → 0:17:10.92
I accept you as you are, perfectly imperfect, as am I. Annoying, a pain in the ass. As am I. Disappointing, contradictory. As am I.
0:17:11.69 → 0:17:29.10
A burden. As am I. So what what's next? How are we going to work together as those things? Because there has to be something greater than our comparing and contrasting mind, which is always at work for good reason.
0:17:29.95 → 0:17:59.80
If we're trying to pick fruit and write fruit, comparing and contrasting, very good. This car, that car, very good. But other times it is how we get disappointed, feel let down, feel like, I'd rather be with this person than that person. We have features in our mind that are really important for survival but not great for happiness. Like always being aware of what we don't have.
0:18:01.77 → 0:18:23.28
So the mature person understands this and accepts that good enough is perfect. There is no perfect. Good enough is perfect. And you are working together, so I accept you as you are. I don't need you to change, you don't need me to change but that's different than how you and I will do business.
0:18:24.29 → 0:18:38.78
There's a difference between who we are and how we do business. That's been true throughout civilization, throughout time. That is it. You don't need to change. How we work together is constantly being formed.
0:18:38.84 → 0:19:19.19
So we actually work collaboratively and cooperatively and peaceably. Otherwise we'll damage each other just by being human. And I imagine that the more we can genuinely accept one another we're much more likely to have a level of openness to compromise and to rolling up our sleeves and to doing that work. Because when we're in this mindset of non acceptance once again we're pitting each other as enemies and when we're perceiving threat. Because as my therapist will always say to me if you attack someone they're going to defend themselves.
0:19:19.28 → 0:19:59.37
That is very reliable. So ironically the more that we can accept one another the more likely we're going to have a level of buy in and willingness and openness to do the compromising. So I think that while we might hold back from accepting because we worry that to accept someone means making all of these sacrifices and losing out, in reality it's the accepting one another that actually provides the entry point into connection and doing the work and compromising in a way that just doesn't feel as inherently oppositional and threatening. Well, think what it's like in childhood. It's the same thing.
0:19:59.52 → 0:20:17.60
Imagine that your parents don't accept you as you are. They wish you would be more like your sibling or can't you be like this person down the block? Get that enough. And this is when we want to run away from home that who we are is not embraced. Right?
0:20:17.73 → 0:20:45.10
And it's never enough. That's an injury that carries over. And if we experience that remember the adult primary attachment relationship is almost one to one what the infant mother attachment relationship is. It follows the same rules. It crashes and burns in the same way, it succeeds in the same way.
0:20:46.35 → 0:21:04.98
So the very same thing I can't grow, I can't become unless I'm with someone who looks at me with eyes that thinks I'm good, right? I'm good.
0:21:07.11 → 0:21:38.14
Otherwise I won't have any resources to develop. I won't have any resources to be better. I can't really perform well because this relational orbit is what provides the resources to do life. Yeah. And I think just practically speaking any change or influence over a partner that comes from a place of disapproval and shaming them and criticising it's not authentic, it's not real.
0:21:39.07 → 0:22:18.89
You might be getting what you want in a very superficial way but it's really not what you need. And so I think that providing that fertile soil for growth from a place of genuine love, care and acceptance and respect for the other is so much more sustainable in the long term. So back to secure functioning. I accept you as you are. But we have agreements that protect us and focus us to what we want to be, how we want to be, and how we're going to protect us from each other.
0:22:19.04 → 0:22:55.70
Therefore, I can accept you. I accept you fully, but I can also stop you from doing something we agreed that we wouldn't do if it's a principle. Like, we you know, my wife and I have this we can go to bed angry, but we have to at least touch toes. Now, there's a science behind that, by the way. It's very folksy, the science behind that has to do with us as human primates suffering an existential cris, really a survival issue.
0:22:56.07 → 0:23:24.44
If we are angry with each other and we don't repair it, or we don't somehow say to each other, signal, I'm angry with you, Stephanie, but we're okay. You could say, I hate you, Stan, but we're okay. The we're okay part is the minimal but absolutely sufficient thing that we have to experience. Otherwise, we suffered greatly and we get sick. It's not a matter of politeness.
0:23:24.50 → 0:23:51.42
We actually truly get sick because we're in an existential cris akin to when we were infants. And so people don't understand that. And so touching toes, whether touching toes or touching at all, it tends to be an unequivocal signal of friendliness. And then we can sleep. And usually we don't even have to revisit anything because that's enough to just drop the hostility.
0:23:51.61 → 0:24:31.11
Yeah. And I think for so many of us who haven't, for whatever reason, whether it's childhood or previous relationships, a lot of people haven't learned that I can be angry with you and still love you. And that really makes conflict feel so high stakes and so deeply threatening, which, again, exacerbates all of the self protective mechanisms both at a neurobiological level and at an intellectual level. But when I don't think that we can have conflict and still be okay, then of course it feels very dangerous, and we're going to act accordingly. A lot of this is development.
0:24:31.21 → 0:25:25.01
A lot of this is, if I could, I would. This idea of when I am upset with you, to be able to keep things in mind that I love you, I'm mad at you, want to punch you, but I adore you. Holding those two things in mind is a developmental achievement for many and is very hard to hold. To be able to remain a two person psychological system under stress is really hard, because if my heart rate goes up a certain level or yours and our blood pressure goes up a certain level, it's very hard to maintain an ability to think, first of all. But also, we are more likely to protect our own interests.
0:25:25.21 → 0:25:49.85
The more aroused we get. Unless we're skilled and unless we have a greater sense of purpose, unless we understand and have practise right. How to keep us from going off a cliff every time, right. One of us has to do something that is extremely friendly to the other person to snap them out of it. Otherwise we both keep going off.
0:25:50.00 → 0:26:27.83
This is the human condition, is what I was talking about. Everybody will do this unless they understand how this works. Well, I think that'd be a really nice segue into sharing some practical tools for threat reduction or ways that we can bring the temperature down when we feel that those cues are starting to arise, whether it's in anticipation of a hard conversation or there's some sort of stress in the relationship. What are some things that people can do that are really effective? Because I find this is so useful because it is tangible and it's easy a lot of the time.
0:26:27.90 → 0:26:40.57
Once you know how to do it, it's simple. It's just hard to do simple. Yeah, that's probably better. Simple, but not easy. When you go live with people who are people are really difficult, especially when we go live.
0:26:40.69 → 0:27:04.48
Right. That's a real experience that moves at lightning speeds and is being processed subcortically by recognition systems. We mostly are using pattern recognition most of our time during the day. That makes everything easier. But it also leads to bias, it leads to prejudice, it leads to shooting first and asking questions later and recognising something.
0:27:04.53 → 0:27:36.99
And if I feel threatened, I'm going to act, right? I don't think so. It's both a nice thing and it's a problem. This book, I just realised recently why I start to over focus on certain things. Everything I've learned, I obsess over until I know it inside and out and I can feel confident in the reliability of the idea.
0:27:37.14 → 0:27:58.64
Right? And so with this book, I realised, looking back, that my obsession was on structure and the manner in which we interact when one or both of us is under stress. Those are two areas that will tank any relationship. They're sooner or later having no structure. We didn't co create anything.
0:27:58.82 → 0:28:09.22
We don't have a shared vision of where we're going and why. We don't have a shared purpose other than love. Right? We have each other's backs. We're survival team.
0:28:09.32 → 0:28:19.27
We're radical protectors of each other. We're time travellers. We're going to do great things in the world together, right? Whatever it is. Whatever it is.
0:28:19.39 → 0:28:38.19
But no idea of ourselves that looks down the road. And no structure, as if we don't need it. It's astonishing to me that people will continue to just say, oh, we'll do it. You would never do that. I would never do that.
0:28:38.31 → 0:28:46.44
It's nonsense. It's naive. Human beings can do terrible, terrible things without being terrible people.
0:28:50.17 → 0:29:19.29
This is us as human beings. We're wonderful and we can be really awful. And so without having guidelines, without you and I creating a civilization, a society of our ethics, what is our ethical relationship going to be? What are our personal morals and how are we going to rein each other in? How are we going to govern each other is so vital that I can't say enough about it.
0:29:19.41 → 0:29:40.45
Most of the problems in relationship is that there is nothing. They're flying a plane that's half built, a house that's hardly constructed, and it looks weird. It's clearly slap dash. So number one is getting together and starting to think, where do we want to go from here? Why are we doing it?
0:29:40.49 → 0:29:56.20
What's in it for us? And what could possibly go wrong based on what has gone wrong? And to start to actually be hands on with this career. That is relationship, right? That's one.
0:29:56.25 → 0:30:16.42
And the other is, again, the manner in which you and I will interact. When one or both of us is under stress, there's a brain change. Therefore, we have to, again, think ahead. We can't wait to go live every time and rinse and repeat. We have to think ahead.
0:30:17.03 → 0:30:30.25
What will I do next time? I just blew it with Stephanie. Now my tendency, as everyone's tendency, is to blame Stephanie. What should Stephanie do next time? Stephanie.
0:30:30.30 → 0:30:46.47
Is there's a problem with Stephanie? Right, that's what we all do. But that will not work. The only thing that works is I have to think that I'm responsible for Stephanie's reactions. I'm her handler.
0:30:46.63 → 0:31:22.04
I am the one who's supposed to be masterful at Stephanie. I'm supposed to know how to handle Stephanie at any time, in any state she gets into, without using a stick or a whip. That's because that's where my focus goes. And that's one thing that people can start to orient towards. Think about your approach, what you're doing, what your face could be doing, what your voice could be doing, the word choices that you're using.
0:31:23.05 → 0:31:48.45
If your partner is upset you did something, accept it. You did something right? You don't get angry at your horse because you approach it in the wrong way and it gets skittish. You don't beat the horse for reacting because you scared it. If you keep approaching your horse that way, who's the idiot?
0:31:48.63 → 0:32:06.00
Okay, so not that you're a horse, Stephanie, but we're animals. We're animals. You are the animal I picked. My job is to be competent, but we don't think about that. I want you to be competent with me.
0:32:06.02 → 0:32:31.85
I don't think I should have to do anything. And that is, again, part of the human condition. Human beings are by nature selfish, self centred, moody, fickle, opportunistic, xenophobic and very warlike. Very warlike. If we don't realise that and put things in place, we get what we pay for, which is nothing or a lot of grief.
0:32:31.93 → 0:32:49.05
So this is just, again, being in reality. So I have to learn you. I have to take responsibility for you, your reactions. I don't blame you for your perception. I don't argue that my face didn't do that.
0:32:49.14 → 0:33:02.83
First of all, I don't know what my face did. And secondly, who cares if you felt it and you were hurt I better take care of that or I'm going to pay for it. Right? We're connected. We're intertwined.
0:33:02.88 → 0:33:11.62
Our fates are hooked in. Right. There's no way I can separate that from you. Like the potato sack race. There's no way I can do that.
0:33:11.80 → 0:33:38.77
Anything else is a misunderstanding of the situation. Therefore, it's a different orientation, it's a different way of thinking than we normally do. It's not I me and you you. It's us and we we move together in lockstep or we don't move, period. Yeah, it's it's a really radical reframing for a lot of people and the way we do relationships, right.
0:33:38.84 → 0:34:03.01
To say, like, I am actually responsible for tending to you and being attuned to you and responsive to you, it's just counter to the way that a lot of people have learned how to be in relationship. We're entitled, selfish idiots included. We get together and we think we're family. We forget we're not family. You and I are strangers.
0:34:03.06 → 0:34:26.74
We will always be strangers. The formalities of being strangers have to be there. And we're constantly wanting to get to know each other throughout life. That goes against our nature. Our nature is to assume we're family, to automate each other, to never look at our faces again, to remember your face.
0:34:26.78 → 0:35:08.56
I haven't looked at it for a month. I have no idea what it looks like now I have in my head, right? But I don't look. Our tendencies in nature to conserve energy and to not pay attention should be well known by therefore, there is an active working against that, to pay attention, to focus, to be present with our partner. Otherwise, not only are we not enjoying them, but we're not really enjoying life, which is walking, using automation and memory, which we do anyway.
0:35:09.65 → 0:35:34.10
That's it. One thing that comes up for me in listening to the way that you describe that responsibility, to be responsible for our partner as we would an animal handler. I've heard another teacher refer to that film The Horse Whisperer. Bringing Horse Whisperer energy to our partner I think is very apt. I've got to be a Stephanie Whisperer is what I have to be.
0:35:34.15 → 0:36:02.82
Yeah, correct. And again, so often we're doing the exact opposite of that, right? If someone starts to show signs of being threatened or feeling unsafe, we escalate in response, which is the opposite of what we would do with a traumatised, afraid animal. And yet that's how we respond to each other. And some people would be aggressive with a scared child or a scared partner or a scared animal.
0:36:02.93 → 0:36:32.12
Some people will do that because helplessness is the thing that makes us most aggressive. The thing that I wonder, and I can imagine people asking themselves is how do we make sure we don't go too far in that? Because I know that a lot of people in my audience lean more towards anxious attachment. And there can be a pattern. Of maybe taking too much responsibility to the point of tiptoeing or over indexing on that, trying to manage someone else's emotional state.
0:36:32.17 → 0:36:49.23
How do we make sure that that finds a balance point that is interdependent and mutual, rather than one person being the sole caretaker of the other? So I know what you mean when you say anxious attachment. You're referring to Ainsworth or Mary. Ainsworth anxious. Ambivalent.
0:36:49.89 → 0:37:11.11
But your audience should keep in mind that both sides of the insecure spectrum are, by definition, anxious, right? Voidant is anxious. Anxious about being trapped, being having their autonomy, their stuff being taken from them. They're really very anxious, actually. The most anxious.
0:37:12.25 → 0:37:29.80
If we want to look at the physiology of avoidance, they're most anxious. They're just unaware of it. The adult relationship is pay to play it's based on should be based on terms and conditions. Deal or no deal. Therefore, I'm going to do this.
0:37:29.93 → 0:37:45.40
You're going to do it too, if you don't do what I'm doing, because we're in this together. This is a team, pal, right? I don't carry your water unless you're carrying mine, too. We're going to have a sit down. This is not codependency.
0:37:45.59 → 0:38:10.78
I am not doing this in hopes you'll do something for me. I expect it and you should expect it from me. Because we're two, or the only two pillars of this union. Our survival depends on us pulling our own weight and doing what we must to make this relationship worth every penny, every blood, sweat and tear. Otherwise, I'm out.
0:38:11.71 → 0:38:27.91
Now, that's why I say deal or no deal. Here's the problem with that. Sounds so simple, doesn't it? Here's the real problem with that, is the attachment biology. The attachment biology we confuse with love.
0:38:28.08 → 0:38:41.39
It isn't love, it's a biological mandate of I can't quit. You don't even understand it. But we feel it primitively, intensely. It's like we're going to die if I lose you. I can't lose you.
0:38:41.43 → 0:39:03.66
I couldn't say it's the kids or the car, the money, the house, whatever, but it's really also, at the bottom of this, a biology that nature has built in a glue that holds us together for various reasons, none of them having to do with relationship, by the way. Nature doesn't care about relationship. We do. Right? We have to understand that.
0:39:04.03 → 0:39:13.92
So the attachment biology is groovy. It is what makes us stick together. It's what's kept us from murdering each other completely.
0:39:18.93 → 0:39:43.47
But it also can confuse us with love and keep us in a relationship where it is unfair, where it is not in two directions, where it is codependent, which both people are responsible for, by the way. So you and I make sure we're in a foxhole together. This is serious business. There is no pass. You don't get a pass for your drug and alcohol use.
0:39:43.56 → 0:39:56.50
I don't get a pass for my trauma history. I've got to show up or there's no reason for us to do this. I know that sounds cold hearted. No, it's a survival unit, folks. Yeah.
0:39:56.52 → 0:40:25.34
And I think that it really invites people into the vulnerability of being direct about this stuff because we can hide in, as you say, so many of us don't have a map or an agreement or kind of a Bill of rights, for want of a better term, on like what are the parameters of our relationship? What do we stand for? What do we care about? What are our joint values? People would just think about it instead of just assume it all works out, which it doesn't.
0:40:25.40 → 0:40:51.51
Yeah. So often we aren't on the same page and we assume we are and that causes us a great deal of strife and we feel very hurt and we make it mean something about the other person, how they feel about us when really we just weren't brave enough or wise enough to actually have the conversation. Think dance troupe. Think rock and roll band. Think cop car partners.
0:40:51.56 → 0:41:16.15
Think or a military unit you're in the foxhole with. All of these are interdependent relationships based on a common interest and need to survive, to win, to be famous, whatever it is. But that's why we're together. We're not together because we love each other. We're together because we have a shared mission.
0:41:16.49 → 0:41:40.98
Only couples don't do it. And it is one of the reasons why couple relationships on the whole won't last very long. Or they will, but they won't be happy because people won't think of this as a true union of equals and very, very different people. Yeah. And I suppose that's really what makes it a partnership.
0:41:41.04 → 0:41:58.14
Right? I think the word partnership has that quality to it. It's like we're in this together. We're a team. And yet for so many of us, particularly in times of stress or any of the other things that life throws at us, we turn into enemies or competitors when things get hard rather than banding together and being stronger for it.
0:41:58.16 → 0:42:19.58
Yes. And that has to be solid. You and I have to raise the bar and believe in something greater than ourselves. And some people it's God, other people, it's principles, character, values. What you and I believe is truly good together and what we believe is truly right.
0:42:20.03 → 0:42:43.64
Now the question is will we do what's good and what's right when it's the hardest thing to do? And that's where I'm trying to point people, including myself. Right? Yeah. I think that that is in those times of stress, inevitable times of stress when our everything in our being, our body will be telling us to go the selfish route.
0:42:43.83 → 0:43:24.93
It's then more than ever that we need to resist that impulse and turn the other way and turn towards our partner rather than becoming very tunnel visioned and self focused. I do believe that once people start doing this, it's its own reward. It is a practise and I do believe that there is no other system that will last a lifetime. There is no other system that can and be happy because other systems, anything else will end up being too unfair and too unjust, too insensitive. And then there's a build up of resentment and threat memory.
0:43:25.11 → 0:44:02.54
And that is something people do not want because it's the gift that keeps on giving. Right. You and I have done so badly in our interactions, and we've acted in such a way that has been unkind without any repair. And now we see each other as adversaries, even when we walk into the room with each other, because we've built up so much of that memory that there is no more trust. And that's where people will go naturally because of how they did business, how they put this thing together.
0:44:03.55 → 0:44:11.36
Yeah. It's just such a body of evidence in support of all of those fear stories. Right? Yeah. It's just humans being human.
0:44:11.89 → 0:44:37.80
Yeah. It's actually quite rational by that point. It's like, well, I'm making an assessment based on everything I have known throughout our relationship. People should understand that our ability to remember where we're hurt because of survival is very keen. So if I hurt you, I won't remember because I didn't hurt me, I hurt you, you'll remember.
0:44:38.17 → 0:44:52.44
And if I didn't fix that in a timely manner, it'll go into long term memory. And I did that. This is a fact. I created that memory. I can't blame you for remembering this.
0:44:52.49 → 0:45:17.82
I created it because I didn't fix it quickly. If I fixed it quickly, you would never remember. Yeah. Stan, just before we wrap up, what would you say to people who have some sort of resistance to feeling like they need to learn this stuff? Because I think some people feel like love should carry a relationship, like we shouldn't need to learn how to be together, that this all sounds very formal and pragmatic and takes away from the romance of it.
0:45:17.84 → 0:45:39.68
What would you say to those people? I would say I fully understand and party on. I've been at this long enough. This has been my research. Started studying babies and started studying adults very carefully, very systematically, using digital video and frame analysis.
0:45:39.74 → 0:45:57.77
So we've studied faces, studied body, studied how people act and react, things that people don't ever even know because real time is too fast. So I've studied this. I can say good luck to you, hopefully it will work out. But this isn't rocket science. Study your history.
0:45:57.89 → 0:46:15.88
Look around. Watch what's happening today. People have not changed. And so if you think that you can deal with another person through time without a structure, without building something together, without pointing in the same direction, let's see.
0:46:19.21 → 0:46:44.22
There are naturals. I've seen lots of natural couples and they're really good. Until they're not, because life throws curveballs. The vicissitudes of life are such that we can't predict what's coming but we can pretty much guess that what's coming isn't a lot of it's great and a lot of it's really bad. The question is, how good are we when it's really bad?
0:46:44.99 → 0:47:08.60
If we're naturals, we're going to fall apart, because we need more than just being natural, we need training, we need to prepare for that. Yeah. Need the contingencies of all of those pre agreed values and commitments to one another. It's a practise and it's hard to do. This is hard.
0:47:09.85 → 0:47:37.64
I'm stubborn and selfish and difficult as anybody, but this changed my life and I wouldn't be the person I am today, or becoming the person if I didn't do this. And it is hard with lots of failure. Yeah. But as you say, worth it. And I think you're right that it gets easier with time, because we start to reap the rewards of it and we start to trust in it more and so that we create some momentum around that.
0:47:37.66 → 0:48:06.80
And it does get marginally easier with each time round. One last thing. This is where the attachment system is a hindrance. If I'm insecure, and I've been insecure, I'm preloaded to not trust you. I'm preloaded to know, based on experience, what will happen if I depend on you, and that'll cause me to protect myself in ways that will appear threatening to you, which is the problem.
0:48:06.90 → 0:48:32.00
So there is that to consider. Can one have the experience to know that fairness and justice in a union and co creation in working together exists? Some people don't believe it does. I mean, they do intellectually, but when they get in it, how are you going to screw me? How am I going to lose on this?
0:48:34.07 → 0:48:48.27
And so that's another challenge for people. Yeah, certainly. I think that's such a beautiful articulation of the essence of any expression of insecure attachment. I don't trust in my ability to depend on you. Bad things are going to happen.
0:48:48.36 → 0:49:15.53
That's because of memory. Yeah. But you and I can change the memory by understanding it and not doing what is natural, which is to double down and enforce it, but to actually do what is unexpected. And then that system, that inflammation, that fear, begins to settle down and the memory is replaced by other memories of yeah, this is possible. Yeah.
0:49:15.73 → 0:49:30.03
Such is the nature of this work, which is so very powerful and I am so grateful for all of your contributions and in each other's. Care is now available. Correct. It's in the world. Great.
0:49:30.15 → 0:49:50.80
Anyone listening? And I did the audio too, this time. Oh, brilliant. Yeah. So anyone who's listening, I have to say, I realise we went a little off pissed, but the structure of the book, I think, is really excellent because it sets out specific conflicts, giving really tangible examples of places where people get stuck.
0:49:50.83 → 0:50:15.59
So it's not purely theoretical, it's actually diving into the weeds of the kinds of conversations you might have had the types of fights that you might have experienced on repeat or maybe you still experience on Repeat really walks you through what's going on there and what might be a path out of it. So definitely go and grab the book. I'm sure you'll learn a lot. And, Stan, thank you so much for joining me. It's been hugely valuable.
0:50:15.69 → 0:50:19.30
It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Stephanie. Take care.
0:50:21.51 → 0:50:43.62
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
3 Tips for Building Self-Trust
In the absence of self trust, we see a lot of other dominoes fall in terms of self worth and self respect. This is something almost everyone I work with struggles with to some degree and it’s a challenging piece of the puzzle when it comes to our personal growth in relationships. In today’s episode, I’m sharing 3 tips for building self trust to help you to go out into the world and make aligned choices.
In the absence of self trust, we see a lot of other dominoes fall in terms of self worth and self respect. This is something almost everyone I work with struggles with to some degree and it’s a challenging piece of the puzzle when it comes to our personal growth in relationships. In today’s episode, I’m sharing 3 tips for building self trust to help you to go out into the world and make aligned choices.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Knowing yourself and your values
Trusting your own boundaries
Finding others to sense check
Knowing it’s not an instant fix
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.17 → 0:00:35.14
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Um, hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm going to be sharing three tips for building self trust.
0:00:35.27 → 0:01:16.87
Self trust is one of those things that virtually everyone that I work with struggles with. To some degree, it is a really, really challenging piece of the puzzle when it comes to our personal growth and our growth in relationships. And I think it's one of those things where, in the absence of self trust, we can see a lot of other dominoes fall in terms of self worth, self respect. I think they're very much an interconnected web. And it can be hard to make decisions that are in alignment for ourselves when we don't have that self trust in place, because it tends to then lead to a lot of doubt and anxiety and all of those things that make it hard to really have our own back in relationship.
0:01:17.02 → 0:02:15.04
So I'm hoping that through today's episode, I'll be able to share with you some relatively straightforward and actionable tips around how you can start building that relationship of self trust with yourself so that you can then go out into the world and build relationships and make choices from a more aligned place. Before we dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. You've got a few days left to make use of the 50% off sale, which I've been offering on my Master classes and my Higher Love course for the past month that will end on 30 June. So if you'd like to save 50% on my three Master classes, which are on Anxious Avoidant Relationships, Boundaries and Sex and Attachment, or my Higher Love Course, which is a breakup course, you can use the code June 50 at the checkout on my website for any of those products. The second quick announcement is just to share the featured review for today, which is Stephanie never fails to amaze me with her podcast.
0:02:15.10 → 0:02:38.43
It's like she's in my head and knows exactly what I need each week. I've learned so much from Onattachment, not just with the podcast, but also with the Healing Anxious Attachment course. She's given me a new level of understanding and depth to relationships with other people and my relationship with myself. Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I'm so glad to hear that's been your experience and it's amazing that you've also done Healing Anxious Attachment and had a great experience there too.
0:02:38.50 → 0:03:15.01
As a side note for anyone listening, healing Anxious Attachment is my signature programme that I run a few times a year, and I will be opening up enrollment again in July. So if you're interested in that, you can join the waitlist via my website so that you can be notified when doors open. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around building self trust. As I said, I'm going to offer you three tips here and I do that for the sake of ease of following the podcast and structural simplicity.
0:03:15.06 → 0:04:03.40
But I do just want to emphasise that something as big as building self trust is not formulaic and it's not something where we can tick off, oh, I've done this, this and this, and therefore I am now healed and I trust myself and everything's fine. It's very much a process and it's one that we'll continue to hone and finesse and work on throughout our lives, right? We don't arrive at a destination of self trust in the same way that we don't arrive at a destination of any other goal in terms of our relationship with ourselves. And I think it's important to really remind ourselves of that so that we're not too rigid and perfectionistic in the way that we approach doing this work, right? It's a moment to moment growing and evolving rather than a journey with a clear destination that we need to achieve or reach.
0:04:03.53 → 0:04:47.09
So the first tip that I want to share with you is get clear on your values and your boundaries because you can't trust yourself if you don't know what those things are. It's really hard to advocate for yourself and to take care of yourself well in life and in relationships if you do not know what matters to you, if you do not know what you are okay with, right? I think so often a lack of self trust comes from not really having that internal compass on what we're okay with. And so we go with the flow a lot. We defer to other people, we follow their lead on what they think or believe or want or need and we shapeshift, right?
0:04:47.21 → 0:05:23.69
And I think that the consequence of that is that we really don't have an internal anchor and it's really hard to trust ourselves if we don't have that internal leadership, right? As with anything, we tend to trust people who are clear and confident and have that strong sense of security about them, right? And when we don't have that within ourselves, it's very hard to have that relationship of trust. And I think there's a broader point to be made there, which is in the other tips that I'll share today as well. The same principles that apply to people outside of yourself who you would trust or not trust apply to yourself and your own relationship of self trust.
0:05:23.78 → 0:06:00.09
So if you are embodying traits or acting in ways that would not inspire much trust if it were another person, then don't be surprised if you struggle to trust yourself when you are behaving in ways that are flaky or inconsistent or lacking in clear values or whatever it may be. So this first one being get clear on your values and your boundaries, right? You cannot trust yourself if you are just floating rudderless around in the ocean because there's really nothing to hold on to there. So how you go about doing this? I think sometimes that in and of itself can be a challenging exercise for people who are not used to it.
0:06:00.13 → 0:06:49.35
Because for a lot of us we will have learned and had that as a strategy, consciously or otherwise is just to be easy, right, to go with the flow, to defer to other people. So the idea of actually going out and figuring out what our values are or setting boundaries or even just identifying what the boundary is can feel overwhelming. We don't know where to start. And so I think that if that is you and you don't really know where to start, it can be helpful to reverse engineer based on situations where we felt really uncomfortable or anxious or any of those other emotions that might signal something about this situation is not okay for me. But I haven't maybe advocated for myself or spoken up because of all of those other strategies around trying to get certain needs for connection or belonging.
0:06:49.40 → 0:07:31.51
Met. So if you know consistently okay when I overextend myself and say yes to everyone and try to be the helper and go out of my way to take care of everyone else, and then I feel really burnt out. About it that's going to lead me to not only be resentful towards them, but probably be resentful towards myself on some level and not really trust myself to say yes when I mean yes, but no when I mean no. So start reflecting on that and reverse engineering from experiences and situations. It's like you're going through and mining or auditing your own relational experiences and take those emotions or those almost those hangovers as feedback, right?
0:07:31.63 → 0:08:09.17
Go okay, that didn't work for me or that leaves me feeling really depleted or taken advantage of or any of those other kinds of emotions and get really clear on what those boundaries might be and what you really value. So you might value reciprocity, you might value reliability, you might value openness but get clear on what those are and then be willing to stand behind them. Okay? The second tip that I want to give you for building self trust, which is sort of related to this, that goes a little bit further, is follow through on your commitments to yourself. Now again, as I just said, you would not trust someone who consistently said one thing and then did another, right?
0:08:09.21 → 0:08:31.08
I think we can all agree on that and yet so many of us make commitments to ourselves and then don't follow through, right? We do something else. We say, we're going to go for a morning walk every day, but then by day three, we've stopped doing it. Or we say, we're going to not message our ex because we know that it's not good for us. And what do we do?
0:08:31.10 → 0:09:08.15
We go and do it. Right, so when your word stops meaning anything to you, then of course you're not going to trust yourself because, again, you've not got the experience there that would justify trust. You've not got a pattern of behaviour that would engender any trust in the same way that it wouldn't with anyone else. So, again, let's stop seeing our lack of self trust as really confusing and a total mystery, when actually it might make a lot of sense if that is the backdrop. I was having a conversation with one of the women in my mastermind last week and she spoke to something which I think will be relatable for so many people.
0:09:08.27 → 0:10:01.62
I won't give the specifics of the situation, but it was with someone that she had been seeing and she had said to them, actions speak louder than words, and I'm going to need you to be more consistent and reliable. But what I pointed out to her was that she had said that to them multiple times, right? So they'd continued to kind of go away and come back and go away and come back. And while she was advocating for herself by saying, actions speak louder than words, she was also making herself available to have that conversation again and again and again. And so what I put to her was, yes, sure, actions speak louder than words, but what are your actions saying, right, when you continue to hear this person out and hear their excuses and allow yourself to go around in the loop again and again and again, are your actions in alignment with your words?
0:10:01.72 → 0:10:54.95
Which are to say, this doesn't work for me because your actions might actually be signalling something other than that. So the point being there we need to follow through for ourselves and if we are behaving in ways that are inconsistent or unreliable, then we will not trust ourselves. And so one of the simplest, not necessarily easy, but certainly simple things that you can do to start building that self trust is follow through on your commitments to yourself. And I think relatably that really allows you to experience your own efficacy in a way that can be very powerful and can create a lot of momentum. We start to feel like, hey, I'm competent and capable and I am a reliable person, whereas when we repeatedly say one thing and do another, it's very destructive to our self worth and we stop respecting ourselves, basically, we feel like, oh, I'm just hopeless, right?
0:10:54.99 → 0:11:26.10
I always do this, there must be something wrong with me. And we can get stuck in a lot of that guilt and shame which tends to be an emotion that spirals downwards rather than lifting us up. So if you do want to build your self trust, follow through on your commitments to yourself. And if you don't think that you can, then don't make those commitments right again in much the same way as you would approach that relationally with anyone else, whether it's a partner or a friend or family. Don't make commitments that you're not going to follow through on and really try to follow through on the commitments that you have made to yourself.
0:11:26.23 → 0:12:56.31
Okay, the third and final tip that I want to share with you on building self trust is find a trusted person or it might be a couple of people who you can sense cheque your intuitive read of a situation with. Now, there's some discernment required here and I want to acknowledge at the outset that that might sound counterintuitive when we're talking about building self trust and then having as one of the tips to have an external person that you are testing against. But to give you a bit of context for this one, I was reflecting on my own personal journey, and a few years ago I really didn't trust myself very much at all. And the relationship I was in at the time had me really doubting whether I was crazy, frankly, and whether I was asking for too much and whether I was justified in being upset with my partner or being frustrated or being angry because he wasn't able to validate that at all or take responsibility. So what I found very helpful in that situation was sharing those things with my therapist who I started working with around that time and having her validation and kind of mirroring back and echoing that the situation that I was in was objectively pretty frustrating and that I wasn't crazy to feel that way and that certain things weren't appropriate or acceptable.
0:12:56.49 → 0:14:01.20
And I think for me at the time, because I was in such a bubble, right, I was so in the thick of the relationship and I'd had the same arguments and conversations with my partner a million times. And you do start to doubt your read of a situation in the face of someone's really adamant, defensiveness and justification. And so I think that in circumstances like that, it can be really helpful to sense cheque and get a read of the situation from someone that you trust whose point of view is likely to be someone that you consider to be wise and thoughtful. So I think that a therapist or similar is a really good person to practise this with, rather than a friend who might jump to your defence and pile on on someone in a way that might not be as helpful as it feels at the time. But I think that finding that balance between validation and outsourcing is the trick here.
0:14:01.22 → 0:14:43.89
And that's the discernment that I'd invite you to practise because we don't want to go into that space of I don't trust myself. So I'm just going to ask everyone's opinion all the time on what does this mean and what do you think about this, because I have no idea and I don't trust myself. That is where it can entrench the lack of self trust rather than alleviate it. But I do think that sharing how you're feeling and sharing what you're struggling with, with someone who can see that and validate you can be really, really helpful in then building your confidence to make that call for yourself going forward and not need to lean on other people's read of a situation so much. So perhaps that third one is really in circumstances where you might be doubting your perception of reality.
0:14:44.05 → 0:15:41.29
Maybe in a relationship, maybe there's I hesitate to use the word gaslighting because I think that it's very much thrown around on social media and leads people to be quite on high alert in their relationships in a way that's probably not helpful to throw around terms like that. But you know what I mean, where you're really struggling to find a clear view of the situation and feeling like you're maybe going crazy or you're so stricken with doubt that you actually do need the support of an outside read. So I think that that can be helpful to do that with the help of a therapist or similar. Okay, so that was three tips for building self trust. As I said at the outset, this isn't something that we can change overnight because for a lot of us, the lack of self trust is a symptom of broader struggles in relationship and as I said, is often intermingled with low self worth, a lack of self respect and some of those other things.
0:15:41.36 → 0:16:19.91
So it is part of the process. It is something that will build over time as you start to get really clear on who you are and what you want and you start having your own back. But it is possible and it is a really, really important and rewarding thing to do to build up that self trust because as I said, it's really hard to navigate relationships from an anchored and secure place when you don't have that baseline of self trust. I hope that this has been helpful. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review or a rating, depending on where you're listening, but otherwise I look forward to seeing you again soon.
0:16:19.98 → 0:16:43.50
Thanks guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
Am I being unreasonable? (Part 2)
“Am I being reasonable” is something that I often hear and it’s important to remember that asking this is so contextually important. So in today’s episode, I’m continuing my series with the goal of helping you build the muscle of discernment and capacity for self trust in asking yourself the question.
“Am I being reasonable” is something that I often hear and it’s important to remember that asking this is so contextually important. So in today’s episode, I’m continuing my series with the goal of helping you build the muscle of discernment and capacity for self trust in asking yourself the question.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Is it unreasonable to talk about the future - marriage, moving in, trips away?
Is it unreasonable to want my partner to come back within 24 hours after a fight?
Is it unreasonable when I ask my partner to think more about me in the relationship?
Is it unreasonable after 3 years, wanting my partner to anticipate my needs without me having to request them?
Is it unreasonable for me to want to spend 90% of my free time with my partner?
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.09 → 0:00:39.31
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I am talking through questions of whether you are being unreasonable when you want or expect certain things from your partner.
0:00:39.44 → 0:01:05.39
This is the second part in this series. I did another one a couple of weeks ago and these are crowdsourced. So for context, if you haven't listened to episode 82, I think it was, I am always getting people asking me how do I know if I'm being unreasonable in the things that I want and expect from my partner? And what I always say is it's very hard for me to answer that in the abstract, right? For me to just give you some generalised universal law of reasonableness.
0:01:05.47 → 0:01:21.54
It's so contextually dependent. And so I asked people on Instagram to give me examples. When do you wonder whether you're being unreasonable? And specific examples in their relationship? And I was so inundated with responses that I decided to do at least two potentially more.
0:01:21.59 → 0:01:44.28
If you enjoy these, so do let me know if you find this helpful. Examples where I'm talking through. Okay? In this circumstance, I think this aspect is reasonable. This aspect is maybe not so reasonable to sort of give that a little bit more colour and allow you to then become more discerning for yourself and apply that to whatever circumstances you might be facing in your own life in a relationship.
0:01:44.41 → 0:02:14.48
So building that muscle of discernment which is so valuable. So that's what today is going to be all about. Before we dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. The first being that I am still running a 50% off sale on my online education, so my Master classes and my Higher Love course so you can save 50% with the code June 50 on my website. The second quick announcement is that my Homecoming Mastermind, which is a six month intimate small group programme with me, is still open for application and enrollment.
0:02:14.54 → 0:02:41.79
We're starting mid July. So if you are interested in working with me directly in a small group setting over a six month period, I would love to receive your application. Third quick announcement is just to share the featured review for today, which is I've been studying and learning from attachment research and therapists for several years now, and you are by far the most concise and easy to understand presenter truly have a gift. And I'm sure I can speak for many in offering sincere thanks for the insight, knowledge and growth you provide. Thank you so much for that.
0:02:41.86 → 0:03:04.23
I really very much appreciate your kind words and if that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierig.com. My team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes. Okay, let's dive into this conversation around how do I know if I'm being unreasonable? The first example is, am I being unreasonable when I want to talk about our future together? Marriage, moving in and trips away.
0:03:04.38 → 0:03:40.85
For me, this is absolutely reasonable with the small caveat of assuming you haven't been on two dates with this person and you're wanting to talk marriage. I think if you've been together for any substantial period of time and you're in a steady, committed relationship, and you're at an age where it makes sense that you'd be having those conversations, I think it is absolutely reasonable. That you would want to talk about your future together and ensure that you are on the same page around what you respectively want for your lives. I think that structural compatibility is something that we don't maybe talk about enough. And I think it's a really important prerequisite to really investing in a relationship.
0:03:41.00 → 0:03:55.00
By structural compatibility, I mean, do we broadly want the same things? Do you want to get married at some point? Do you want kids or not? Where in the world do you want to live? What does life look like for you in the future?
0:03:55.45 → 0:04:23.90
Can we make sure that we are not on the wrong side of the street? If we have kind of diametrically opposing binary views around certain structural pieces, then that might be a deal breaker. And it's important to know that relatively early on before you're investing too much time in something that might be a dead end. So I think that it is reasonable to want to have those conversations. With that being said, I think it's also true that some people find those conversations more daunting and overwhelming than others.
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And that doesn't necessarily mean they're not serious about you, or they don't love you, or they don't see a future with you. But those conversations can just feel really big and overwhelming to some people in a way that they maybe don't for others. So I think having a level of compassion for that while also honouring your desire to have a conversation so that might look like saying to your partner, I know that this is something that's hard for you to talk about or that feels overwhelming, but it's really important to me that we're able to discuss these things. If now isn't a good time where you feel like it's too soon, can we agree to revisit this conversation in three months or six months or whatever it might be? So find a middle ground that honours both of you that isn't pressuring one or the other isn't meaning that one of you has to totally forego how you're feeling or what your needs are.
0:05:16.08 → 0:06:06.94
So find a middle ground that honours both of you, and that doesn't make either person wrong for the way that they're feeling. I think that that is a really good way to approach this and move forward in a way that feels good for both of you. And I think that if your partner is just adamantly categorically refusing to engage at all on those conversations, then that might be telling that they're not ready in a broader sense that you might want different things. You might just have different capacities to have those conversations and that might be something to reflect on for you, whether that's going to work for you in the longer term. If your partner is just really digging their heels in and not interested in talking about the future at all, if it is important to you to have those conversations, then that might be something to think about and consider.
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Okay, the next one that I'm going to speak to is, am I being unreasonable when I ask my boyfriend to come back within 24 hours after a fight when he doesn't usually and he usually takes days? This for me is absolutely reasonable to want someone to come back within 24 hours after a fight. Okay? Someone disappearing for days at a time after a fight without repair is really challenging. That is not the stuff of secure relationships, right?
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It's okay to need some space to decompress after a fight before coming back to repair. But days is pushing that and it's not really in my mind, respectful to the other person and the fact that they're likely sitting there in a total anxious meltdown feeling really stressed and powerless. So for me, even 24 hours, for me, to be honest, would be pushing it. And of course, there are contextual factors here that might play into it if you live together. That might be different too, if you live apart and only see each other once or twice a week.
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But even still, I would be putting 24 hours as the absolute upper limit on that, particularly if there's no contact in that time. I mean, it's one thing if they let you know that they're still processing and need some space and cheque in with you, but if they're just disappearing and kind of dropping off the face of the earth and aren't contactable, then I think that 24 hours is absolutely an upper limit. And as I say, if it were me, it would be a much smaller number than that. So I think that prioritising and having boundaries and agreements around repair after conflict is really a good idea. That's for anyone listening and allows you to have conflict, that feels safe.
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Because if the status quo in your relationship is that your partner disappears for days at a time after you have a fight, then guess what? You're going to feel extreme anxiety about having a fight, about raising concerns about any of that because you're bracing for the fallout and all of the stress and pain that that's going to cause you. So I think there's a really negative ripple effect of that kind of behaviour. And it's absolutely reasonable for you to want a quicker turnaround time, let's say, between rupture and repair, than days at a time. I don't think that that is very conducive to a healthy, emotionally safe relationship.
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So I think that the path forward for you would be to have that conversation when you're not fighting. I think that trying to impose that as a boundary or make that request when you're in the midst of it and offering that requirement to them when they're about to storm out, that's not going to be effective. So try and explain to them when you're connected and things are good that that doesn't work for you and that's really challenging. And that would they be open to agreeing a shorter period of time between rupture and repair. Okay, the next one is, am I being unreasonable when I ask my partner to think more about me and the relationship?
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So this is one where I think it's reasonable to want to feel cared for, it's reasonable to want to feel prioritised, it's reasonable to want to feel like our partner is thinking of us, right? But to ask our partner to think more about us and the relationship is not a very well formulated request or expectation because it's so generalised and it is so open to misinterpretation or misunderstanding. So if I say to my partner, hey, I just really wish you would think more about me in the relationship, how am I going to know if that's happening? How am I going to know if they're actioning that they could be thinking about me from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to sleep at night, but if that's not translate it into action that I can observe and receive, I'm not going to know it, right? And so they could be thinking that they are doing what I've said and I could be sitting there feeling increasingly hurt and resentful because that's not showing up in the way that I would have hoped or expected.
0:09:52.64 → 0:10:20.45
So I think that this is where it is on us initially, first and foremost, to formulate needs and requests that are easy to meet, help ourselves out, help our partner out and fill in the blanks, right? Give it a bit more colour. So saying, I really feel so cared for and loved when you message me out of the blue when you're at work and say you're thinking of me. Right? That might be what you're meaning when you say, I want them to think more about me.
0:10:20.52 → 0:10:49.57
Or it might be that you plan what we're going to have for dinner without me having to ask you about it, or you make plans for us to go on a date or whatever, right. You do a certain set of chores without me having to ask you to. There are so many different ways this can look. And so I think that being really clear with our partner formulating the request with a level of specificity much more likely to actually get what we're needing. Okay.
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That leads really nicely into the next one, which is, am I being unreasonable? When after three years, I expect that my partner will be able to attune to and anticipate my needs without me having to prompt or request them. So, again, I think this is kind of two pronged. On the one hand, I think it is reasonable to expect after three years that our partner will know us. Right.
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That our partner will have a level of expertise in knowing how we are and the things we like and the things that are meaningful to us and how we like to be treated and the things that make us feel loved. I think that after three years you can expect some level of literacy in one another. It may be a good way of putting it. At the same time, I think going from that to I expect you to anticipate all of my needs without me having to prompt you or make a request of them is an imbalanced assignment of responsibility. Right.
0:11:45.95 → 0:11:59.39
It's just a total abrogation on your side. You should just know is essentially the sentiment behind that. I shouldn't have to ask you, I shouldn't have to tell you how I'm feeling or what I'm needing. You should just know. Right.
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And that sounds lovely, but I don't think it is reasonable or realistic and it's probably just going to lead you to be resentful and to feel like your partner doesn't care because, oh, they must know what my needs are, but they just don't care enough to actually take steps to meet them. I think that can be the interpretation that you are going to apply to their behaviour if you're telling yourself the story that by this point they should already know everything. And so to the extent that they're not going out of their way to meet all of those needs, then they're doing that deliberately from a place of selfishness or not being loving. Right. There's a lot of capacity for you to be telling yourself painful stories that leave you feeling hurt and unloved, when really I think we do have to remind our partner or prompt our partner request things from them.
0:12:45.15 → 0:13:27.61
And the other piece is our needs change. Right? In one season of life we might need one thing or want one thing, and in another it might be totally different. So I think rather than being stubborn or righteous about this, we should just be direct and open in our communication. I think that that is by far the easiest and most reliable way to get what we need from our partner and to feel loved and to feel connected rather than just descending into a spiral of storytelling and meaning making and overthinking that leaves us feeling angry or resentful or hurt, possibly unnecessarily, or in a circumstance which is unfounded.
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So I think that while we can expect that our partner will know us and we will know them after three years, we still have to be responsible for communicating what we're wanting or needing from them. Okay? The final one that I'm going to speak to for today is, am I being unreasonable when I want to spend 90% of my free time with my partner? So again, the distinction I will make here is you're allowed to want to spend 90% of your time with your partner. Okay?
0:13:56.25 → 0:14:11.33
A desire is what it is, right? That's your preference. You like to spend all of that time with your partner. Whether that's entirely healthy is a different conversation. I think I assume from that question that you lean more towards anxious attachment.
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And if you listen to the show a lot, you'll know that I do encourage people with those preferences to try and diversify their energy a little more and create some balance so that they're not too overly focused on the relationship to the exclusion of all else. But putting that to one side, there is a difference between wanting to spend 90% of your free time with your partner and expecting or requiring that your partner equally wants to do that. Okay? The latter is where it becomes unreasonable because we can't be controlling of what our partner prefers or desires. And so to the extent that your partner wants to spend their free time partly with you, but also partly with their friends and also partly with their colleagues or partly on their own, you then judging them for that or shaming them for that, or accusing them of not caring about you for that.
0:15:03.97 → 0:15:51.78
That's where we run into trouble and that's where we can become controlling and unreasonable in the ways in which we're imposing our own way of viewing the world onto our partner and making them wrong for being different to us. So I think that that's really the distinction that I'd draw there and reminding ourselves, like, yeah, I'm allowed to want what I want, but I can't make them want the same thing. And that's the part that we need to lean into and that's really the uncomfortable thing for a lot of us who can tend towards more controlling behaviours in relationship. And as always, I don't say that from a judgmental point of view because I can certainly veer towards that at times, but that's part of our growth is going, oh, okay, I'm being a bit controlling here. I'm wanting them to see the world exactly as I do because that would make me feel more comfortable, right?
0:15:51.88 → 0:16:10.35
That's just not how healthy, balanced relationships work. So we need to find space for both of those things. We need to find a way to honour our desire to spend time together while also not imposing our extremes on someone else. I hope that this has been helpful. As I said, I've got so many more examples of these that you guys sent in.
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So if this is a format that you do find useful and you'd like me to continue with every so often, do let me know, and I will be sure to record some more examples of these so that you can start building that muscle of discernment and your own capacity for self trust in asking yourself the question so that you can cheque in and go, wait. Am I being unreasonable? Hopefully, through repetition and through almost listening to these worked examples, you'll have a greater capacity to make that assessment and judgement call for yourself in whatever circumstances you find yourself in. If you've enjoyed this episode, as always, super grateful. If you could leave a rating or a review, it does help so much in not only letting me know what you love about the show, but also in getting the word out and helping more people with the podcast.
0:16:55.62 → 0:17:13.01
Thanks so much for joining me, guys. I look forward to seeing you again soon. Take care. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg @stephanierigg.com
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And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
5 Reminders If You're Going Through a Break-Up
Unless you’ve married your high school sweetheart and lived happily ever after, you have likely experienced a breakup in your life. In today’s episode, I’m sharing 5 reminders and ways to support yourself while you're going through a break-up.
Unless you’ve married your high school sweetheart and lived happily ever after, you have likely experienced a breakup in your life. In today’s episode, I’m sharing 5 reminders and ways to support yourself while you're going through a break-up.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
The break-up is going to be hard
Finding other support people
Processing the break-up in anxious and avoidant ways
Not making meaning or assumptions
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
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You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm going to be offering you five reminders.
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If you are going through a breakup or you've recently been through a breakup, or maybe not so recently, but you still feel like you're in that post breakup era in that it's still occupying a lot of mental and emotional energy and you're still really struggling with the emotional processing and maybe finding a level of acceptance around the breakup. So obviously this is an area that all of us will likely experience challenge in at some point in our lives. I think breakups are one of those things that unless you marry your high school sweetheart and live happily ever after, you're probably going to experience a breakup and have to do a level of grieving around that. And while there's no opting out of the challenges that a breakup can present, I do believe that there are better and worse ways to move through a breakup, or at least ways that you can go through that process. That are more supported and mindsets that ultimately allow you to grow through that experience rather than spiral downwards to a dark place, which I think can happen.
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So I'm going to be offering you five reminders, tips, ways that you can support yourself if you are going through a breakup. Before we dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. The first being another reminder that for the month of June, you can save 50% of my Master classes and my Higher Love Course. My Higher Love Course in particular is very much in keeping with the theme of today's episode around breakups. It is a really comprehensive course for anyone who is going through a breakup.
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It helps you to process all of those emotions, the grieving, the meaning, making, finding closure, but then also really supports you to pivot, to look towards the future and go, okay, what do I want? What do I value in relationships? What are the lessons I need to learn here? How can I take responsibility for my part in whatever dynamics existed in my previous relationship? How can I get really clear?
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How can I build up my self worth so that I'm looking to the future? And when it comes time to date again, how can I make sure that I'm doing that from a really integrated and empowered place rather than a place that is driven by scarcity or insecurity or unworthiness, as I think can happen if we've had a bit of a knock to our self worth? So my Higher Love course, along with my three other Master classes, are all available for 50% off on my website for the month of June. You've got another week or so to take advantage of that with the code June 50. The second quick announcement is just to share the featured review for today, which is so comforting.
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I've fallen in love with this podcast. It's so comforting and reassuring to not feel alone in what I'm experiencing and to have the tools to handle the emotions at hand. For an anxious person, this is balm for the soul, feeling seen and having the comfort of a framework for the situation at hand. Listening to this podcast is a form of soothing when I've been triggered. Thank you so much.
0:03:25.26 → 0:03:47.23
Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I'm so glad that that's been your experience and it is my absolute honour and pleasure to be able to support you through your process. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my Master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around reminders. If you're going through a breakup.
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Now, this is not an exhaustive list. I probably could have done many more than this, but I think these five will give you a solid grounding to approach your breakup in a way that's going to be as supported and adaptive as possible. So the first one is remind yourself that breakups are almost always going to be hard. Again, sometimes you might end on very amicable mutual terms and feel generally good about the breakup, but even then there's going to be some adjustment, there's going to be some grieving. And I think that unfortunately, that is the minority of cases around a breakup.
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Most of the time there is maybe a lack of mutuality around the breakup. One person ends the relationship and the other person didn't want the relationship to end. All of those circumstances that mean that the breakup is going to be hard, it's going to hurt, and it's going to feel like you're in a whirlpool of emotions, and that's okay. That's actually normal and to be expected. I think where we really get ourselves into strife is where we aren't bracing for that.
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And so when those emotions arise and they can feel big and intense and overwhelming, we start to panic because we're so uncomfortable with our own emotions. We panic and we go, this can't be right. This must mean something, right? I'm not meant to miss them this much. If I'm feeling this guttered and spinning out of control and totally rudderless, that must mean that the breakup is the wrong decision, that it can't be right.
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And so if you're the person who was broken up with, you might find yourself frantically trying to contact your ex and plead with them and convince them and beg for another chance or tell them about all the ways in which it could be different. But I think that to do that really misses the point, which is that irrespective of how a relationship was, even if the relationship was really not working, even if it was unhealthy, even if it was dysfunctional and conflict, ridden the breakup is going to be hard because we have become accustomed and familiarised ourselves with that relationship that is part of our normal. And so for that to be taken away even if as I said, it wasn't healthy, it wasn't really working for us, all of a sudden we can feel very alone and very almost naked and without an anchor. That is the nature of attachment is that we learn to orient ourselves through our attachment figures and our romantic partners become that. And so all of that to say really be mindful of the stories you're telling yourself and the meaning that you are attributing to those big emotions in the wake of a relationship ending because the grief is totally normal, the sadness is normal, the missing them is normal.
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And I think the more that we can go into the experience with sort of realistic expectations, then the less likely we are to scramble to fix those emotions when they arise, and we're more likely to just be able to stay with it and remind ourselves, this is normal, this is to be expected. And I will get to the other side of this emotion. Think of it like a tunnel with a light at the end of it. Okay? So the second reminder if you're going through a breakup is in 99% of cases clearly I've just plucked that number out of dinner but you get what I mean.
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In the vast majority of cases it is not a good idea for you and your ex to be each other's emotional support person through the breakup. So I think a lot of us again really struggle with this and I have certainly struggled with this and not done a very good job of it in the past. When we see our ex in pain or vice versa, there can be such a strong urge to go in and try and comfort them and to support them emotionally through whatever emotions they are experiencing in the wake of the relationship ending. To worry about them, to feel guilty even if they're in a really bad place or they're not coping very well and to feel responsible for that or feel like it is on you to make sure that they're okay. And as much as that is totally understandable because of course this person until the breakup was your person and you were meant to be each other's rock and anchor and support person.
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The fact of the relationship ending means that your role with respect to each other is shifting and has shifted. And it's not to say that we have to be really careless and cold and uncaring, but we really do need to have some boundaries in place in the vast majority of cases. Because to be each other's emotional crutch through the breakup is likely going to make it very hard and very confusing for your system to recalibrate and understand your new relationship to this person. Because even though rationally, you can know, okay, yeah, we've broken up, we're no longer romantic partners. Having that tether of emotional support and big emotions and holding each other through that is going to really muddy the waters and it's probably going to make it much harder for you and draw out that process of unravelling and sort of rewriting the story.
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And even if you are on good terms, and even if you do intend to be friends down the track, it's probably a good idea to take some time and space from each other and find emotional support in other people in your lives rather than continuing to be that rock for one another. Because as I said, I think that can really muddy the waters and draw out the whole process and eventually you are going to have to let go to some degree. So I think the sooner you can set those healthy boundaries with each other, the better off you'll both be. And as I said, that doesn't mean you have to never speak to them again. It doesn't mean you can never have any sort of relationship.
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But I think having some lines that allow you to figure out what your relationship looks like in a way that is substantively different, qualitatively different to that of being each other's partner is usually a good idea. Okay, the next reminder is that everyone processes breakups in a different way. Now this is an area where I see a lot of people, particularly people who lean towards more anxious attachment patterns, really cause themselves a lot of suffering because they are usually spinning out and having a really tough time with a breakup. And they see their ex who might be more avoidant in their attachment patterns. And outwardly they seem to be quite fine, right?
0:10:00.36 → 0:10:31.51
They might seem to be just getting on with life. Maybe they're being even more social than they were before. Maybe they've jumped straight on a dating app or whatever, right? But what you're seeing from the outside looks like a person who isn't in a lot of turmoil. And for the anxiously attached person, the story that gets told is they don't even care. They're not even sad. They must never have loved me. I never meant anything to them. They don't even care about me. How are they so fine when I am such a mess?
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I feel like an idiot, all of these things, right? Those stories are really painful and obviously can exacerbate what is already a challenging emotional time. So the reminder here is, please do not interpret someone else's behaviour through the lens of what it would mean if you were doing those things, because you're coming from two very different places a lot of the time and you're filling in the blanks and jumping to a lot of conclusions, making a lot of assumptions that are not helpful and that are based on very incomplete information. So please know that people process breakups in a very different way and particularly from that attachment perspective. In my Higher Love course, which I mentioned at the start, I have a bonus master class that's included on attachment styles and breakups and really breaking down what you can expect from each attachment style as they move through a breakup.
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What are the usual outward behaviours, inward emotional responses? That gives a little context for that, right? And lets us understand that no two processes are going to be the same and particularly when we are coming from different attachment patterns and strategies, we're likely to have a different journey through that breakup period. So just remind yourself that your process post breakup is not in competition with your exes. It is not something that you should be comparing how quickly you are moving on and making meaning out of that as if them moving on quicker than you means that they win.
0:12:03.52 → 0:12:37.99
Right? There's no winner or loser and it's really just stay in your own lane is the advice. Right? So I think that the more you can remind yourself of that and resist the urge to veer into comparison and competition and meaning making and assumptions around your ex's breakup journey versus yours, I think that will stand you in really good stead. Okay, that leads me nicely into the fourth tip, which is what your ex is thinking, feeling and doing is no longer within your jurisdiction.
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Okay? Now, this is very, very hard to come to terms with, particularly for those of us who mean more anxious and who tend to lean on information gathering as a way of feeling in control when we are feeling anxious or afraid or stressed or insecure. Right? So you will likely have had a lot of patterns around doing this of what are they thinking? What are they feeling, what are they doing, what does it mean?
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And how can I kind of weave my way through all of that to try and create safety for myself and to try and create a sense of security, to try and perhaps manipulate. And I don't mean that in a way that implies malicious intent, but really manipulate, as in to try and curate the dynamic or the relationship or control the situation in some way to meet my needs or to further my end. When you've broken up with someone, when someone's broken up with you, you no longer are entitled to know what they are thinking or feeling or doing. Right? And I think that that can be really challenging, right?
0:13:43.49 → 0:14:22.42
Because you'll impulsively everything within you will be saying I've got to find out what they're thinking and feeling and how do I know what this means? And et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. What does it mean when they do this, or what do you think this the number of questions I get in that vein really speaks to the fact that we spend a lot of mental and emotional energy post breakup trying to hypothesise and decipher what our ex is thinking, feeling and doing. And the reality is, there's no way of knowing short of your ex telling you what they're thinking, feeling and doing, which they're probably not going to offer up. And there's really not a lot to be gained from you spinning around in circles trying to figure that out unilaterally.
0:14:22.61 → 0:14:39.30
Because then what? So that I can then game it in a way to try and get them back or change their mind. It's just not healthy and it's not empowering, and it's not really what you need, even if it feels like that's what you need. So remind yourself. I think there's a level of radical acceptance that needs to happen here.
0:14:39.43 → 0:15:19.41
It's like almost picturing that you're holding really hard onto a rope. Like, I'm picturing like, a tug of war, and it's just taking so much energy to keep pulling and pulling and pulling and gripping. And it's almost like you have to visualise just letting go of the rope because it's not yours anymore and it's costing you a lot, and it's really taking up a lot of space within you that could be redirected to your own emotional state. What are you thinking, feeling and doing rather than focusing exclusively on them when that's no longer yours to focus on? So release the grip, let go of the rope, and try and stand on your own 2ft and redirect some of that energy and attention back towards yourself.
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Now, that leads me really nicely into my fifth and final reminder, which is a breakup is a really beautiful opportunity to reset, to take stock, to get clear, to learn lessons. Okay? I know it doesn't feel like that. I know that oftentimes we would do anything to undo it, to go back in time, to change things, if only I'd done this and what if I'd done that and I shouldn't have asked for this because then maybe they wouldn't. Blah, blah, blah.
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We can just send ourselves down this rabbit hole of what ifs? But that really keeps us stuck in the past. And a breakup is like turning over a new page. And I think that if we are courageous enough to step outside of all of that rumination and obsessing and actually go, okay, here's where I am. This is what's happening.
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What are the lessons for me here in this moment, in that relationship? Because every relationship and every breakup has lessons for us, okay? And I think that learning those lessons is our responsibility. Certainly if we want to have healthier relationships going forward and if we want to leave behind patterns that haven't been serving us, that feel exhausting and overwhelming and that we feel stuck in. Because the reality is, if you just spin around in your breakup and do the ruminating thing for a while, for a few months, until you kind of get over it, and then you eventually go back on dating apps, and go back there again without having done any really intentional processing of what happened and what was driving that on your side, then there's a really good chance that you're going to end up in another relationship that exhibits many of those same traits, whatever those were for you.
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But if you haven't, quote unquote, done the work to cultivate conscious awareness around what are my patterns? As I've said before, if you're the common denominator in a pattern that keeps showing up in your life, then that's a really good invitation into getting curious. Why do I keep choosing this? Even if it doesn't feel like I'm choosing it? A part of me is choosing it.
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A part of me feels this gravitational pull towards that type of person or that type of relationship. And so when you've gone through a breakup, it's like the universe has cleared the decks for you, has given you this clean slate. And so that's your cue to learn the lessons, to cultivate that conscious awareness and to really get clear who am I, who do I want to be, what are my values, what do I care about, what do I want my life to look like? You have this window of opportunity to really stand on your own 2ft and figure that out without the influence or the distraction of a relationship, right? Because for all of the wonderful things that a relationship can give us, it also does require that we compromise.
0:18:04.69 → 0:18:50.84
And that's totally okay, that's part of being in relationship. But you're given an opportunity here to figure out what life looks like for you without the influence of someone else's wants, needs, preferences, desires. And so I think that is a really good opportunity for you to rebuild that relationship with yourself so that you can go to the next relationship with a clearer sense of who you are and what you want for your life. And that's particularly true if you are more anxious and you tend to see your sense of self get subsumed into the relationship and you do notice that you lose your own identity as a standalone person. I think that's even more true that this breakup that you might be experiencing is a really great opportunity.
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So don't waste it because if you do just continue down the old path of obsession and rumination, then there's a good chance that you'll be back here in six months or a year or two years. But our patterns have a very funny knack for reenacting themselves until we learn the lesson. So I hope that has been helpful. Those were five reminders. If you're going through a breakup or you've been through a breakup and you're finding it hard to move on in a way that feels clear and confident and supported.
0:19:20.82 → 0:19:40.98
So I really hope that that has given you something to think about, that it's been helpful. If you've enjoyed this episode. As always, super grateful. If you can leave a five star rating or a review, you can leave a comment on Spotify, share it with the people in your life, share it on socials of those things really do help so much in continuing to get the word out. So thank you so much for joining me.
0:19:41.03 → 0:19:53.52
I'm sending you lots of love. If you've been through a breakup and you're having a tough time, as I said, I know it's hard, but you will get through it. You will be okay and you might even be better than you were before. Thanks so much for joining me, guys. I look forward to seeing you again soon.
0:19:53.62 → 0:20:14.14
Take care. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things hatchment love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much.
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Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
How to Navigate Addiction to Drama with Dr Scott Lyons
If you’ve ever caught yourself wondering why you keep attracting the same type of person, this episode is for you. Today I’m joined by Dr Scott Lyons to talk about deregulation of energy, attention and emotional expression and navigating addiction to drama. Dr Scott also shares a story about how he knew he was no longer attracted to unavailable people and why he walked out in the middle of a date.
If you’ve ever caught yourself wondering why you keep attracting the same type of person, this episode is for you. Today I’m joined by Dr Scott Lyons, a holistic psychologist, educator and author, to talk about addiction to drama, and why we may subconsciously seek out chaos and intensity in our lives and relationships (even when we think we're trying to avoid it).
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Understanding addiction to drama
Common characteristics of someone addicted to drama
Big emotions don’t equal vulnerability
What your “spark” really is
Finding people who know how to love
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Use the code JUNE50 for 50% off 3 masterclasses or the Higher Love Course - www.stephanierigg.com
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
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You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge, and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment.
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In today's episode, I'm in conversation with Dr. Scott Lyons. Scott is a holistic psychologist, educator, and author of the newly released book Addicted to Drama healing dependency on Crisis and Chaos in Yourself and others. Scott's also the creator of the Embody Lab, which is the largest online learning platform for body based trauma therapies. And as someone who's taken several certifications through the Embody Lab, I am a huge ambassador of Scott and what he has created. And I'm so excited to share with you the conversation that I had with Scott today.
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All around addiction to drama and how becoming dependent on chaos often subconsciously can really dictate our lives and relationships and how we can break those cycles to create more inner and outer peace in our lives. So I'm really looking forward to sharing this conversation with you, and I hope you enjoy. Scott, hi. Thanks so much for joining me. My pleasure.
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Thank you for having me. So today we're talking all about drama and Addicted to Drama, which is the name of your new book. It is. I love a good drama. Love talking about it.
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Yeah, well, you'd hope so. By this point, I'm sure you've done plenty of talking about it. I'm glad that we're having this conversation because I think it will be relevant and will resonate with so many people. One of the most frequently asked questions that I receive from clients and from people in my instagram community is like, why do I attract unavailable people? Why do I attract X?
0:01:58.98 → 0:02:32.92
And I'm always quick to gently turn that back and ask, why are you attracted to what part of me is attracted to whatever person dynamic situation that I keep coming up against in my life? Because that's probably a more honest question and certainly a more empowering question than casting ourselves as a very passive character in the story of our lives and throwing our hands up in overwhelm and wondering why these things keep happening to us. So true. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I've certainly heard the same thing.
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It's like, why do bad things always happen to me? Why do bad relationships continue to happen to me? Why do I keep attracting unavailable people or immature people? And I think the easiest way to sort of turn it back on yourself, the question is, if it's happened once, interesting information. If it continues to happen, what is the common denominator?
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It's you, boo. It's you. God love you. We all love you. And it's you. And you are part of this situation. You are not a victim to it.
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You are a participant. And the more you can identify how you are participant, the more you are empowering yourself to change it. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's right, because as much as it might feel like a hard thing to hear, and that's what I always say to people, it's so much more permissive and empowering to look at our part, because that's ultimately what's within our control. I think positioning ourselves as the one on the receiving end of all of the bad stuff with no active role in it, is not actually a very helpful story.
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Yeah. I remember by the third person I dated who was addicted to meth, I was like, this is an unusual series of events that I'm like, what are the chances? This is weird. When I really was like, okay, clearly it's not the meth addiction I'm attracted to, but the fact that they are in some type of avoidance, that they are filling the void with something else and not really able to be there for themselves, let alone be there for me. Yeah. And so it's a heart. You're so hurt, and I was so hurt. Excuse me. I won't say you. I was so hurt.
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I was so frustrated. I was so disappointed, and I couldn't possibly hold that within myself and take responsibility for that. So it's so easy to be like another one of you or this is your fault. It's not like, how was I a participant in my own suffering again? How was I contributing to my own lack of peace?
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And how might that pattern be playing itself out in other parts of my life? Which is the question for those of us who are investigating, are we addicted to drama? Yeah. So maybe we can take a step back and you can give a bit of a lay of the land of what are you talking about? When you say addicted to drama, what might that look like?
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What are the signs? How does it show up? Yeah, so we know that we don't necessarily know, but drama is essentially an unnecessary turmoil, an unnecessary chaos and crisis. And it looks like dysregulation, if you're familiar with that word, meaning there's an inefficiency of energy and attention and emotional expression. And thus, because it's so disproportionate, like, if I'm picking up a pen with the effort of picking up an elephant that's disproportionate, it's dysregulated, and it feels very performative.
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And so that's why we often think, oh, those who are addicted to drama, like, their intensity, their exaggeration is a performance for attention. It's not. It's underneath a very dysregulated ability to modulate how much energy, emotion and attention is needed to be in response to the world. And an addiction is anything that we become dependent on that both fills a void within us and masks a core pain. It helps us be avoidant to that pain.
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It helps us both create a numbness. And an addiction, if it's interesting enough, helps us rise above the threshold of that numbness to feel alive as well as distracted. So when we talk about an addiction of drama, it doesn't necessarily make sense because we're saying, wait, why would people be dependent on essentially more suffering? Like, why would anyone want more chaos and crisis in their life? And certainly why would their brain reward them for such a thing as part of any addiction?
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And the reason is, well, stress is empowering, literally. Like the first aspect of the first stage of a stress response, you get activated. It's a release of all these hormones. You feel powerful, you feel strong in that first stage and there's an endorphic release, you get a pain relief. So all of these things when you feel helpless, when you feel like a victim in life, when you feel like there's no power agency, then you're going to move towards things that give you that.
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And if stress, which is readily available, if you seek or create it or manifest, it gives you exactly that. It gives you this boost, this charge in your life. It's like drinking ten cups of coffee at any time of the day or night you want, and it's getting free. If it gives you that, you're going to become attached to it. So this is what we mean by addiction and drama.
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And it plays itself out as the pattern of all the ways we might become just avoidant, of our own stillness, of our own peace, of our own contact or relationship with ourselves. So, I don't know, you're walking down a street, nothing going on, and all of a sudden you're thinking of a story about your ex. Why are you doing that? Why are you doing that? And you might even know, like, this isn't going to make me feel better.
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But then you get on social media and you look them up and you're adding logs to that fire of drama, of unnecessary turmoil. You're sitting in a bathtub or relaxing somewhere on like, a lawn, and all of a sudden you are playing a scenario out about what's going to happen next week at work and it's the weekend. Why are you contributing to your own suffering? Why are you rushing down the street when you have nowhere necessarily you have to be? Why are you playing a song that's really sad when you're already feeling tender?
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Yeah. So there's this question we're asking, and I think in our everyday spectrum of experience, why are we contributing to our own pain? Why are we contributing to the intensification of our own emotions? And what purpose does it serve for you? Yeah, thank you for that.
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And I was going to ask exactly that because I think with all of these patterns, we have to go, okay, what am I getting out of this? Clearly there's a part of me that's meeting a need, serving some sort of adaptive purpose, or at least it has an intention to do that. Absolutely. All survival responses do. Yeah.
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They're all strategies to navigate something. And it's unfortunate that if you've ever been around someone addicted to drama, it's exhausting, it's tiring, it's energy depleting and it's annoying, it's boundary list, it's annoying. And so there's not a lot of space for empathy. And so in the lack of empathy, we typically just brush them off as needing attention or they're just some drama queen as opposed to going, oh, this is their survival adaptive strategies to something else that looks hard and painful. They are contributing more pain to themselves to mask other pain.
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What a terrible addiction to be in an awful cycle. Yeah. And is there I mean, I'd I'd love to know a little bit more about what you've found to be the origin of that. Whether there's a common origin story or whether what gives rise to this addiction to drama? When do we become dependent on that as a strategy?
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Yeah, well, there is certainly common symptoms like those who have an addiction drama often feel isolated, alone. They feel like the world is against them as opposed to for them. They'll typically say things like why is it always me? Or why is it there always something? There's a real negative bias.
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They're unable to really attend to the positives in life. They over generalise. So I had a frustrating moment in my day, I had the worst day. So you'll see exaggerated language, intensified language, lots of exclamation marks where they perhaps do not belong. You'll see them feel like there's a constant sense of urgency, like there's not enough space and time.
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They feel rushed, they feel burdened. There's a sense of disease or anxiety that is pervasive. It creates their baseline tone. So these are things that are pretty common amongst everyone who has this propensity or addiction to drama. And in terms of the origin, there are several sort of major contributors.
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We could look at transgenerational trauma and trauma as a factor of where that initial pain comes from. That's being when we have pain, it gets locked off in our body, gets sealed off. We call that oedema, essentially like it's a way of protecting ourselves from further injury. And that edemic response cuts that part of ourself from ourself. And whether it's emotional pain or physical pain, the same thing is happening.
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So we either disassociate or we cut off parts of ourself that have been hurt and that trauma stays in the body. And so as we get more cut off from ourself, we exist in a void. We are scattered or we are disconnected from the place where that pain is residing. And that becomes what's called a void. And I talked earlier about how addictions form is a way of filling the void, literally pouring into the empty vessel of where I should be residing.
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And if you grew up in a household of chaos, that becomes the normal. You have to speak at a certain decibel to be heard. That becomes the void, the decibel to which you speak. If to be heard and seen and felt, you have to be big and exaggerated or you have to always be ill or sick or something always has to be wrong. Where that becomes the currency for love, then that's what you internalise.
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If you have a parent who's addicted to drama, you have two choices. You either join the fight and rev yourself up with them, or you collapse and become very repressed and very closed off as a means of protection. And that repression ends up leading to cathartic explosions anyways. Kind of leads us down the same path. Yeah, I mean, I think that as you describe that, it's clear that this is big, right?
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This is kind of culturally pervasive. This doesn't feel like a niche problem. As I'm reflecting, while we kind of entered this conversation, talking about relationships like workplace, this feels big as well. So many of us, I think, form an identity around how busy we are and how stressed we are at work, but almost as a badge of honour. And that becomes like, oh, I've been so busy.
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And that's just like how we greet each other. How have you been? Busy but good. And we can ask like, why are you over scheduling yourself? Why is the tasks at work more complex than they need to be? Why are you overcomplicating things? Why are you engaging during work and after work? Gossip. It is throwing logs on a fire of drama.
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You're participating in it. You're either enabling it, you're participating in it or you are it's in our. And relationships become the perfect depository, the perfect place where these challenges around drama show up. Because those with an addiction to drama from attachment work, we know that this style, this stance, so to speak, or this behavioural patterns are not just the behaviour. They're also demonstrating some challenge with intimacy.
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So if you feel isolated all the time, which those with an addiction to drama do, you're already not in relationship to yourself, let alone able to then be in relationship to other people. If you're avoiding yourself through suppression, repression or some disassociation because there's underlying pain, then you are not home to be in relationship. And vulnerability, intimacy leads to vulnerability. And vulnerability means that I'm going to come closer into contact with my own self, not just someone else, but my own self. And the emotions and the pains and the joys that all reside here.
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And if there's like an allergic reaction to that, and that allergic reaction is a reflex that I call the revving reflex, which is as soon as I get too close to myself or too close to stillness, I'm going to rev myself up. I'm going to find and seek and create all those stress possibilities. I'm going to over schedule myself, I'm going to go gossip, I'm going to go doom scroll, whatever it takes to avoid contact with myself, which literally feels dangerous, because if I'm attending to myself, if I'm too vulnerable, I will not be available to address the next possible threat in my life and I will die. That is the underlying script. I will die because I will not be available.
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I will not be vigilant enough to deal with the next threat. Because those of us who've had trauma, early developmental generational, whatever it is, are always on the lookout for the next threat to protect ourselves because we weren't able to the first time. Yeah. You mentioned attachment and how that can play into it. I'd be curious to know whether and to what extent you notice trends in attachment styles and addiction to drama.
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Is there overlap there? Is there any kind of themes that emerge? Yeah, I mean, the main theme around attachment is we know attachment wounds start where there isn't the ability to co regulate. So meaning if there is not a present caregiver, and that can be community too, it doesn't have to be a single entity. But if there's not a present caregiver, who is able to be available in themselves to hold space for an infant, because we don't come into this world with the ability to regulate our own emotions and attention and energy.
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That's modelled and it's modelled through a shared experience. So it's not like a baby's watching the caregiver and going, oh, I like how they process that emotion. Nothing like that. It's literally it's like is a parent expressive? Can they be with their emotions that's felt in the room?
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Can I hold my infant while the infant is crying or upset and be present for them? That's co regulation. Oh, I'm learning through someone else's ability to be grounded and present and expressive, that I too can do that and that leads to self regulation. If I never get the opportunity to co regulate, I never get the opportunity to learn self regulation. And that looks like an inability to regulate my energy, my emotional expression and my attention.
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And those are the exact ingredients that I talked about as part of an addiction to drama. The symptoms of an addiction to drama. Yeah. So I suppose then it is kind of a common origin story, but maybe it just manifests differently for different people. Most of the people that I work with lean towards more anxious attachment patterning and I think there's certainly elements of this addiction or gravitating towards drama in a lot of those behaviours.
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But it's interesting to observe that and to also observe that. As you describe, at the heart of addiction to drama is avoiding our own stuff, avoiding that emptiness or the bigness of that void inside of us. And I think that, again, it's something that I point out to people that emotionality or loud and big emotions is not the same as vulnerability. And I think that oftentimes there can be a misunderstanding around that. People thinking, yeah, I'm good at vulnerability because of how emotional I am.
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But I think when our emotions are coming out in whether it's a performative way or a way that is a distraction or is some sort of avoidance from the tenderness that sits underneath it, I think we again have to get a little curious about what's really going on for us there. Yeah. When the emotion is disproportionate to the experience and that's a little tricky. That is tricky to navigate what disproportionate means. But if the emotion is what I call it, a secondary emotion, which is a place where all emotions, sad, happy, whatever get deposited in to become rage.
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Like, if I don't have a big emotional landscape and I feel a little disappointed, and it becomes rage, and I feel a little joyful, and it becomes gleeful, those are my only two emotions. And it feels very polar and extreme. It's like every subtle, nuanced emotion, and there are hundreds of them, get deposited in these major emotional containers or depositories. They're called secondary emotions. And if those emotions that I'm experiencing are primarily based on revving myself up from the past or the future, as opposed to what's actually happening in the present moment, it also seems performative.
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So just because you have big emotions does not mean you are in contact with your emotional truth. You might be just relating and replaying stories from the past or projections of the future to get yourself to that emotional high to which you feel something with. So again, it takes you above that level of threshold and the level of numbness that's there, and you feel alive. Great. And you feel like the burst of catharsis, which ends up just actually leaving you into withdrawal symptoms from it like any addiction, right?
0:23:36.39 → 0:24:14.48
It's the plunge. Yeah. That disregulated emotional expression is not actually metabolising and processing it because often in those big experiences, you're feeding off the emotion to rev yourself up more, as opposed to using the emotion to direct and guide you towards your needs and processing and metabolising it once you've arrived at your needs, it's very different. And so for people who experience this, I'm sure by this point in our conversation, a lot of people are nodding and sheepishly raising their hand.
0:24:18.21 → 0:25:00.17
So I guess the question then becomes and again, I hear this a lot from people, it's like I'm not attracted to healthy, quote unquote, stable, healthy people. When I date someone who seems really reliable and available and kind and caring, I don't feel the same spark as I do with that person over there who doesn't text me for two weeks, but then shows up and I get the rush and the hit and the spark. So what do I do? Well, first, let's name the spark for what it is. It's called a trauma single. Okay? It is Red flag. Couture, my loves. It is not attraction. It is the mistake of what intensity is misplaced for intimacy.
0:25:00.53 → 0:25:31.13
You are chasing your red flags in that moment when you are following the magnetism of your Trauma Tingles. Okay, I love trauma tingles. I love it feels so visceral. It's so visceral and it's true. And there is a big difference of when you have healed and you can find the nuances and the flavours of love that do not feel escalated and intense and extreme and roller coastery.
0:25:31.31 → 0:25:48.65
And when the attraction feels grounded in your body, I promise you it will not feel as exciting. Sorry. Loves that's your trauma tingles. If you need excitement, go on a fucking roller coaster.
0:25:51.01 → 0:26:15.35
Maybe don't go chasing waterfalls of bad relationships to get it. But it's confusing because we often think, oh, excitement of love. Yeah, that's your stress response. It takes a couple of months to work your way into the groove of a relationship. And that's often when people are like, oh, now it's boring.
0:26:15.53 → 0:26:31.10
No, now you are in the truth of relationship. If you can make it there, the first couple of months are more stress induced. They're exciting. Stress doesn't mean bad, it can also mean exciting. But it is an activated experience.
0:26:32.19 → 0:26:59.09
It is a charged experience. And especially if we're following our Trauma Tingles, it is like there's a part of us that says, yay, we're back in the familiar. Yay, this feels like home. Home is great. And so it can be challenging because we're listening to these signals, so to speak, in our body.
0:26:59.16 → 0:27:29.02
These signals that say, like, OOH, there's just such deep attraction. And we have to learn to discern the difference between a Trauma Tingle and a present grounded, anchored, bi directional sense of flow that does include some nervousness and some vulnerability and some topsy turvy feelings as well. But also you don't lose yourself.
0:27:31.57 → 0:27:51.76
Yeah. And I think discernment is what emerges from that. It's like the thing that we so want to be able to cultivate, because I think a lot of people hear that and they go, oh, chemistry bad. Spark bad. Does that mean as soon as I feel excited about someone, I need to red flag myself the hell out of there.
0:27:51.81 → 0:28:10.61
And we can get a bit extreme and not trusting of our own judgement because we know we've got a pattern. And so we're so suspicious of our own feelings that we're like, oh, no, red flags. Go, is it a red flag if I really like someone? It's like, okay, maybe just back crisis hopping. Stop crisis hopping.
0:28:10.66 → 0:28:34.65
That's your addiction to drama. It takes some nuance, it takes some experimenting, and you won't know. And you don't have to go to the polar opposite of like going to a nunnery because you have traced your Trauma Tingles before. Yeah. It just takes a good coach or therapist to help guide you into the clarity and discernment of it.
0:28:34.82 → 0:28:56.91
Yeah. It's that hanging out in that messy place of finding our way is really hard for people who want to believe that there's a black and white three step formula way to know. No, I was in a relationship this summer. I repeated the same pattern I've done a million times. They literally said they're not available.
0:28:57.00 → 0:29:28.80
And I was like, that's okay. I'm here for you. We literally had that exchange, and I'm so grateful for it, because in this 40th time of repeating this pattern as an adult this year it's may. It's may, and I have repeated it, but it opened up a whole new access point to healing for me to have repeated it. I'm so grateful I repeated it.
0:29:28.93 → 0:29:47.67
And I've gone on dates with people since, and I was like, oh, trauma tingles aren't here. Yeah. This pattern that they're doing doesn't seem sexy anymore. Oh, they're not available. That's weird.
0:29:47.79 → 0:30:04.33
I don't feel turned on. Well, am I too old to feel turned on now? No. I have worked it out where I'm like, oh, it just doesn't it's not attractive anymore. And that feels like such freedom.
0:30:04.67 → 0:30:25.49
Yeah. Where I'm like, I've just got up and walked out of a date. I'm like, yeah, you're great, and I just need someone who's more emotionally available. And you actually haven't asked me a single question about me, so I'm giving you some information about me now by leaving. Bye.
0:30:27.27 → 0:30:59.02
You must have felt so on top of the world walking out of there. I followed up with them and I was like, hey, I just want to make sure you understood where I'm coming from and not to leave you hanging, but that was my boundary. It doesn't work for me. And I'm sure you will either read a good book called Addicted to Drama or find whoever signed copy and here's my assigned copy. Yeah, I think that's the way it can go, right?
0:30:59.07 → 0:31:07.89
When we take responsibility, rather than going. I think the old way would be, why didn't they ask me any questions about me? Why would that what does it mean? What is that? Oh, yeah.
0:31:07.96 → 0:31:44.08
I would say that I'm not interesting enough or like, yeah, all the internal scripts, those internal skips are like glue to the pattern. They help just seal it in, and as you remove the pattern and the trauma tingles no longer feel enticing, those scripts also just begin to drip away. It's like they didn't ask me any questions. They don't know how or they weren't interested. And that's also okay, they don't have to be interested in me, but at least I'm clear that that's not what I want.
0:31:44.45 → 0:32:23.25
Yeah. I think that when we notice ourselves going into that detective mode and trying to analyse someone and make their behaviour make sense or find some sort of way to reverse engineer the outcome that we want or we are is it that they are avoidant or they have this type of trauma? And maybe also I should try this strategy to get through to them and this is how I'll make them feel safe so that they open up. It's just like, can I take all of that as feedback about what's going on for me rather than meaning anything about them? Can I deal with that first and foremost?
0:32:23.38 → 0:32:44.21
Yeah. And if any of those scripts are happening, that's not relationship. That is not the foundation for a healthy, secure relationship right there. So if you find yourself in it, you got a little work to do, and that's cool. Welcome to the club of getting our shit together whenever we're getting our shit together.
0:32:44.36 → 0:32:57.40
And if you're making it all about them, guess what? You got some work to do as well. And that's okay. We are an emergent experience. As humans, we are never complete.
0:32:58.01 → 0:33:33.97
So get comfortable with where you are in your emergent healing journey and just rock it. Yeah. So what would you say then, when we notice that tendency in ourselves? Is there a way that we can rather than going into that urge of retreating and going into those extremes of, oh, I just have to isolate myself and do all of my healing in a very serious way until I'm healed enough to go and do this? What are some kind of tangible in between steps as we walk the path so that we can still exist in the world while acknowledging that we have some work to do?
0:33:34.12 → 0:33:49.40
Yeah. Well, here's another bullshit comment like that, which is that I have to love myself before I can be loved. I've said that before. Bullshit. When you were a baby, you did not fucking love yourself.
0:33:50.65 → 0:34:35.37
You didn't even know you existed really, yet you didn't have all the systems in place. So find people that know how to love friends, therapists, people who are co regulating professionals and hang out with them and just be like, what's this like? What's this like to be in an environment and ecosystem in a room where someone is present and available? Oh, that's scary. For me, whatever it is that's the experiment is, it does not have to it can be with a significant other, but it gets complex and messy sometimes when we try and do that.
0:34:35.46 → 0:35:11.99
So you don't have to go retreat, go to a nunnery, you don't have to shut yourself off to the world, you don't have to stop dating, but do find the resources that are available of people who know how to be available and present with you. That is not the same thing as people who are enabling your addiction to drama. If you're talking about you're shit talking so and so and they did this and they did that, and then that friend goes, oh my gosh, and what happened next? That is not someone who's actually being present with you. That is someone who's jumping into your bonfire of drama.
0:35:12.04 → 0:35:28.98
Someone you have pulled into your crisis through your vortex of drama. Different. Very different. So. Find people who are sturdy, grounded anchor. Put a newspaper ad out there for that.
0:35:31.21 → 0:35:56.87
Looking for a sturdy co regulator in my city. Looking for a sturdy co regulator. Here's my IG information. Like a really good embodied somatic coach has hopefully done that work for themselves so that they can be available for you and you use that as a petri dish to rewire and that's so important. And then you keep dating at the same time.
0:35:56.96 → 0:36:59.03
But does it feel like when you're with that person that you've hired from the newspaper or a therapist or a coach or whatever, when you have built the place where it feels safe to feel safe I'm going to say that again. When you have built the place where it feels safe to be safe in those conditions, then you are ready to find that and use that as a beacon to be in relationship with other people who can offer you that and where you can offer them that. Yeah, that's beautifully said and I think that you're so right using. If we see relationship, intimate relationship, particularly when we've got all of those old patterns that we know are not working for us, we see that as kind of top rung of the ladder up there with maybe like family systems. It's like, can I take some in between steps that aren't going to be so heavy on my system, that aren't going to go straight to those buttons and push them frantically?
0:36:59.13 → 0:38:02.20
Because it's so familiar, there's so much muscle memory around it, it's like I could just go straight there before I even realise it. Can I take those in between steps with safe people and build up the capacity in a way that feels a bit more contained, rather than throwing myself into the lion's den and just trying to figure it out on the fly and then being exasperated and deflated when I wind up right back where I started? Yeah, it's funny you say the Lions Den, that's my last name and my family had on the garage door to Lions Den was a long lineage of drama addicts gathering in that home. So it holds special and I love that you said the hierarchy even to get to the place where you can trial these skills that you're learning with a family system. And I'm laughing at that because it's like, to me, that's the ultimate place of the ultimate adventure course.
0:38:02.65 → 0:38:45.13
That's the arena. That is the arena with the gladiators right there. If you can get through a family holiday period without the drama, my therapist says, like, your family created the buttons, they know how to push them and they're operating on an older version of you, not the healed version of you, because they haven't healed to ascend to the same level. So they are working with their familiars, which is challenging. So you're going in with all your new tools and you're like, fuck, I've done all this work.
0:38:45.19 → 0:39:16.23
I'm amazing. I even have a successful relationship now and I'm going to go practise that in my family Christmas party. And then you get there and there's things that are thrown and doors that are slammed and food fights and suitcases that are packed five days earlier than they should have been and whatever the chaos exists in that and you're like, wait, but I did all this work. I paid all this money. Why did it work?
0:39:16.40 → 0:39:38.32
Yeah, so I just want to normalise in those cases. It is about them, it's not you. Yeah. So I guess then that leads to one other limb of all of this. Which is, if you are maybe not the drama addict yourself or you have done work around it, how can you be in proximity to or?
0:39:38.34 → 0:40:15.89
In relationship with other people who maybe haven't done that work in a way that feels boundaried and where you are taking care of yourself in that space without going to extremes of cutting people off or again, going to that thing of like I can't be in relationship with you at all, which in some circumstances might be the last resort. That might be the right thing. But I think there's a lot of in between space. So how can we safely be around people who maybe are still in that mode? Yeah, well, first you got to take care of you, which is their drama is contagious.
0:40:16.55 → 0:41:04.32
I'm not just saying that metaphorically. I'm saying that from as a neurophysiologist, their stress response stimulates your stress response and part of their mechanism for feeling safe, quote unquote, safe in relationship is pulling you into their drama vortex, pulling you into the crisis, into the hurricane, the tornado that they create. And that is ungrounding, that is dysregulating to you. So you need to spend a lot of time building up the capacity to be anchored in yourself, aware of your own emotions when they start to pull you or a mesh, you're able to use different tools to say, I'm not participating in this. That means things like, I'm not enabling them.
0:41:04.85 → 0:41:17.08
I'm not going to say things like, oh, and then what did they say? How could they? How dare you? It's like, that sounds really difficult. Sounds like you had an aspect of your day that was really hard.
0:41:17.45 → 0:41:30.04
Notice I took the over generalised language and made it specific. Yeah. In that moment, I had the worst day ever. Tell me about your worst day ever. What were some of the components of your worst day?
0:41:30.73 → 0:41:59.26
Can you also tell me about some of the things that worked for you today or that were decent? So I hear you had some decent aspects of your day and some hard parts. Sounds like a really mixed bag in that way. I mean, look, I'm a therapist, that's how but those are boundaried language tools. Somewhat like, I know my aunt's coming over and she loves to gossip and she loves to just go in the realm of drama.
0:41:59.32 → 0:42:22.49
She loves to talk about her shows and what's on the news and it's catastrophe left, right and centre. It's the catastrophe games and I'm not interested in participating. That is boring to me. And for me, just a side note for me to say it's boring. That's been a lot of work to get there.
0:42:22.64 → 0:42:31.45
I was going to say, that's a sign, right? It's like, oh, thank God. It's boring to me. Hallelujah. Hallelujah.
0:42:31.87 → 0:42:59.22
When I say drama play out, I just sort of giggle at this point. I'm like, Yay, I see you, I see you, it's all good. I will say, hey, I have 15 minutes for you, or if you want to talk about what's happening in your life, we're going to go on a walk. So I'm not stuck in a space with you. With limited space, I might say, oh, I'm happy to listen, but we got to play foosball while we talk or something.
0:43:01.13 → 0:43:54.68
Or, I'm happy to listen to the challenges of your day. I also, for my own preservation, need to hear some things that are not challenges, or I also need us to talk about some things that are positive in the world. If you're just going to talk and catastrophize the news, things like that, of setting boundaries, it sounds like one of the aspects of that that might feel challenging for people is that particularly in a family system, when belonging to the system has meant participating in the drama. We will have to come face to face with the fears around not belonging and going like, oh, okay, there might be consequences of this and I might just have to prioritise my well being above, I suppose, recognising what it costs me to belong in a system that is addicted to drama and chaos. Look, you will lose people.
0:43:55.53 → 0:44:19.21
That is the existential real thing of life. You will lose people. As you heal, people will not be able to use you to drama bond in the same way, so you become unavailable for them. Sorry, not sorry. That's for your own health and loss is real.
0:44:19.33 → 0:44:34.42
I acknowledge that they also meant something to you, if that's the case, and they may come back after they do their own healing too, or they may not, and that friends come and go.
0:44:37.03 → 0:44:59.48
It is a real aspect of life. Like, how many of your high school friends do you still talk to? Yeah. Like, how many of your elementary school friends do you still talk to? Yeah, I just want to kind of normalise, because the other piece I didn't say is you can walk away if you have tried all of these other strategies and they're really laid out in the book for you as well.
0:44:59.61 → 0:45:22.52
If you know someone addicted to drama and how to take care of yourself, if you have tried all these other strategies and it's a no win situation, you're locked in to their crisis. No matter what you do, walk away. It's okay. You are entitled and allowed to take care of yourself first. Just like on an aeroplane.
0:45:22.63 → 0:45:36.76
Put the oxygen over your mouth first. Yeah. That might mean walking away. Yeah. Look, I'm saying that having known people who have walked away from me in the long run, I'm glad they did.
0:45:38.35 → 0:46:11.34
First of all, they were enabling me. I'm glad they did. I'm glad they took care of themselves, because it was also a wake up call to me. At a certain point, after enough people are like, why aren't they texting me and asking me to go out with them every Friday night? I did recognise there was something I was doing that maybe was not giving them the peace that they deserve in their life.
0:46:11.52 → 0:46:25.44
Yeah. It goes back to that common denominator point that we started with, right? Yeah. Being an invitation to look in the mirror and get a bit curious and honest. That mirror is hard.
0:46:25.62 → 0:46:36.62
It is, absolutely. It's so much easier to blame everyone else. So much easier. Oh, my gosh, I wish I had the naivete to still do that.
0:46:40.29 → 0:47:26.55
Although I think, as we said, there is something really ultimately empowering and liberating about getting into the driver's seat and I suppose recognising that we are responsible and capable of taking care of ourselves and owning our part and deciding who we're going to be in relationship to others and how we're going to be realising that that is actually within our control in large part is very, very empowering when we have gone through life feeling like all of that is not within our control. Absolutely. Well said, scott, thank you so much. This has been such a great chat and I'm sure it's going to be hugely valuable to everyone listening. So thank you so much for being here.
0:47:26.59 → 0:47:37.44
We will link all of your work and your book and everything in the show notes. Where can people find you if they want to come into your world and work with you?
0:47:40.61 → 0:47:50.44
You can go to Drscotlions. So dr. Scott Lyons.com. It has some quizzes that are fun, like short little quizzes. Are you addicted to drama?
0:47:50.47 → 0:48:24.03
Do you know someone addicted to drama? It has information about my book, has links to all my trainings on the Embody Lab, the Somatic therapy platform, which I should interrupt and say, I've taken several programmes through the Embody Lab and I highly, highly recommend it. So if anyone is kind of working in this space and wants to learn more about this, I couldn't recommend those programmes more highly. Thank you. Yeah, that platform is my baby and pride is not something I had experienced for most of my life.
0:48:24.10 → 0:48:35.66
It was not something I allowed myself to feel because I wasn't feeling much besides extremes. But I really feel proud of what the Embody Lab has done in the world. Yeah. Really grateful. Yes.
0:48:35.68 → 0:48:43.15
You should. It's making its impact. Yeah, it's really one of a kind. Thank you. So.
0:48:43.19 → 0:48:54.36
Yeah. The Embody lab, drscotlines.com. I'm on Instagram, I have a very fun, spicy podcast called The Gently Used Human that launched today.
0:49:00.35 → 0:49:24.72
Other than that, I'm writing books and I'm just rocking my own addiction to drama. Well, thanks so much, Scott. We'll put all of that in the show notes for anyone who wants to cheque out Scott's work, which I can highly recommend, but otherwise, thanks so much for being here. My pleasure. Thank you.
0:49:26.53 → 0:49:49.08
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__Rigg or stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here, and I hope to see you again soon.
Am I Being Unreasonable? (Part 1)
A question I get all the time is “Am I being unreasonable in my relationship” in what I ask for, what I expect, what I need from my partner. So, in today’s episode I’m sharing specific examples from my community if the example is reasonable or not, to help you to be able to make that decision for yourself in your relationship.
One of the things I’m most often asked is “How do I know if I’m being unreasonable in my relationship?”. This can be a really tough enquiry to determine for yourself, particularly when you’re getting a lot of pushback and self-trust may be lacking.
In today’s episode, I’m offering my take on your specific examples as to whether certain expectations, requests or situations are reasonable (or not), to help you to be able to build your discernment muscle and ultimately feel equipped to make that decision for yourself in your relationships.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Should someone text me everyday after 1 or 2 dates
Asking my partner to stop speaking to his ex because I compare myself with her
Asking my significant other to not like scandalous or seductive pictures online
Asking my partner to check in with me when they get home safely after drinking
Wanting regular sleepovers when he sleeps better alone
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Use the code JUNE50 for 50% off 3 masterclasses or the Higher Love Course - www.stephanierigg.com
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.09 → 0:00:33.45
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's episode is titled am I Being Unreasonable?
0:00:33.63 → 0:01:16.88
And it is inspired by a question that I get asked all the time, which is just that how do I know if I'm being unreasonable in my relationship, in what I ask for, what I expect, what I need from my partner? This is a question that I get asked all the time and unfortunately, it's really challenging for me to answer that in the abstract. And that's what I always say to people. I'm not able to give you some sort of rule of thumb that is going to be generalised enough to apply in every situation in a helpful way, because it's just so dependent on context. So I had the idea to ask people on Instagram what are some examples of situations in your relationship where you ask yourself that question, how do I know if I'm being unreasonable?
0:01:16.94 → 0:02:18.00
And I got inundated with responses and so I recorded all of those responses and have selected some to chat through in today's episode as specific examples to share my take on whether and when and to what extent that thing might be reasonable or not to expect of a partner. So I'm hoping that in taking it out of the abstract and in giving you almost, like worked examples, that that will not only give you a bit of a steer on how you could approach those specific situations, but in filling in the blanks a little in colouring in the picture that might help you to build up your own muscle of discernment so that you feel better placed to make that assessment for yourself going forward in your own relationships. It's sort of teaching someone to fish and enabling them to then eat for a lifetime, as the saying goes. So that is what today is going to be about. And I've got at least two parts to this episode plan because, as I said, I received a lot of responses from you guys.
0:02:18.10 → 0:03:12.29
And if it's a format that you enjoy, as in me speaking to specific questions that you've sent in, do let me know by leaving a review or sending me a message on Instagram or leaving a little comment on spotify, which you're now able to do under the episodes so that I know that you like the format and I can take that on board when planning future episodes. Before we dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. The first being that you might have heard me say, for the month of June, I'm offering 50% off my Higher Love Breakup course, as well as my free Master classes with the code June 50 so you can go to my website and save 50% off any of those programmes. So if you've been interested in delving a little deeper into my work, now is a great time to do that. I've also been meaning to mention this is a very delayed announcement because it's definitely not new, but about a month ago I launched a standalone website for the podcast.
0:03:12.34 → 0:03:49.07
So you can now go to onattachment.com and scroll through all of the episodes. There's resources there and you can also ask a question. So there's a form that will allow you to submit a question. As you would probably know if you've been listening for a while, I have frequent Q and A episodes where I'm addressing a community question and now there is a way for you to do that that's a little more organised than sending me random DMs and stuff that can get lost. So it's a nice centralised place for you to submit a question if you'd like me to address your specific concern or situation that you're in in a future episode.
0:03:49.15 → 0:04:15.39
So on attachment.com, it's got lots of resources and we are at the very early stages of that and have plans to build it out into a really helpful resource. So go cheque it out if you're a fan of the podcast. Finally, just to share the featured review, which is I just want to let you know how grateful I am for your podcast. For me, it was a revelation that all those types of attachment exists and knowing mine and my partner's attachment is helping me a lot in how to improve my relationship. Thank you so much.
0:04:15.54 → 0:04:53.69
Thanks so much for that beautiful review. If that was yours, please send a message to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my masterclasses as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around am I being unreasonable? Now, the first one that I want to speak to, and there were many, many, many versions of this that I received, were am I being unreasonable when I expect someone to text me every day after one or two dates? So by far and away the most frequent theme in the responses that I got was around texting texting frequency.
0:04:54.43 → 0:05:46.09
Things like I want my partner to text me every morning, text me every night, I want text throughout the day when we're at work. So there's clearly a lot of expectation happening here around texting frequency. And without knowing, with certainty, my strong assumption is that this is mostly coming from anxiously attached people who, as we know, have a strong preference for very frequent communication, being in contact. And in the absence of that contact, there can be a lot of storytelling and meaning making and stress and anxiety that takes hold pretty quickly and can escalate. So there are a few things that I would say to this I think that expecting someone to text you every day after one or two dates, it's really important to distinguish between a reasonable expectation and a legitimate desire, we might say.
0:05:46.16 → 0:06:22.85
So I think that to the extent that someone doesn't text you every day after one or two dates and you are spiralling into that means they don't care about me, they don't like me, they're going to ghost me, they've lost interest, I wasn't impressive enough. They clearly don't really want to see me or invest in me. Because if they did, then they would be texting me all the time. There's a lot of meaning making happening there and that is projecting your own preferences and your own norms around texting onto someone else and then interpreting their behaviour through that lens. The reality is that not everyone likes texting all the time.
0:06:23.05 → 0:07:03.87
If you are, as I said, more anxious, then that's probably hard for you to wrap your head around because there is a strong preference to be in constant contact with someone, particularly in those early stages when you're very excited about it. But I think we do need to remember that not everyone has the same preferences. And frankly, what I would say to anyone who struggles with this whole thing around texting frequency is that it's not really healthy to be texting someone all the time and to be expecting that. And I think that if you were honest with yourself, you'd recognise that it is distracting for you. It probably occupies a lot of your field of vision to be in that constant back and forth texting.
0:07:03.95 → 0:07:43.11
I know that when I've been in patterns of that in the past, it's like I can't focus on anything else. I'm picking up my phone constantly, I'm anticipating the next text and you get a text and then you get that little dopamine spike and then you get the plummet afterwards and you're waiting for the next spike. It's very addictive and it's very all consuming and for me, at least, as I said, I've experienced this. It's really hard to be present with anything else that's going on in my life because I'm so absorbed by my phone and by the anticipation of the next text from this person. So there's this sense of reaching and never enoughness when it comes to super frequent texting.
0:07:43.16 → 0:08:23.33
So I suppose all of that to say my advice would be don't make meaning out of the fact that you're not getting daily texts from someone after one or two dates. That's a slippery slope and is probably going to lead you to personalise someone's behaviour when you don't really know anything about their behaviour. You don't know that that means something that might just be them being different to you. I think you're allowed to reach out to someone, you're allowed to want to talk to them, but you also can't impose your requirements in a really demanding way on someone else and particularly when those requirements or when those expectations are maybe not the most healthy thing either. So I think the advice would be try and take it slow, particularly at the start.
0:08:23.42 → 0:08:55.76
One or two dates is not that much. And consider putting boundaries in place for your own texting use and frequency. This urgency culture where we all expect everyone to be available to everyone all the time in this very unrelenting way, is harmful and it leads us to all be anxious and depleted and exhausted. So consider putting some boundaries in place for your own texting usage. So maybe you send a message to someone at the start of the day and then say to them, I'll chat to you tomorrow, or maybe we can talk later tonight.
0:08:55.90 → 0:09:33.57
So that you've put some boundaries and expectations in place in a more direct and overt way, and you're not just waiting for the possibility that you might get a text from them at any moment. And in so doing, being really tethered to your phone, being really anxious and waiting on someone else in a way that detracts from your ability to be present in the rest of your life. So that was a bit of a long winded answer, but I think there's some principles in there that will be relevant to a lot of people. And of course, the reasonableness will also hinge on one or two dates. That might be a different story if you've been dating someone for three months.
0:09:33.64 → 0:10:13.11
Right? I think it's reasonable to expect daily cheque ins if you've been dating someone for a little longer. But I think after a date we do have to just pull back a little and calibrate our expectations and remind ourselves that this person is more or less a stranger and we don't really have the right or entitlement to demand that level of attention and time of theirs in the specific way that we would prefer it. Okay, the next one is am I being unreasonable when I ask him to stop speaking to his ex as I compare myself to her and it makes me feel not good enough? So there's a few layers to this.
0:10:13.20 → 0:11:01.10
I think that what I hear in this question is the need to take a little more responsibility for the latter half of it, which is I need him to stop speaking to his ex because I compare myself to her and I feel not good enough. Right. It's like I need you to stop doing that because I have all of these other things going on and the insecurities that I have lead me to feel a certain way in response to your behaviour. So there's sort of two prongs to it right now. If someone is speaking to their ex several times a day in a way that just doesn't feel right, then I think that we are absolutely entitled to raise concerns or to say, look, I'm not accusing you of anything, but I'm not really comfortable with that.
0:11:01.23 → 0:11:52.57
It doesn't really feel good for me and I'm noticing myself experiencing some insecurities about it and it's something that I'm struggling with opening up a conversation in a way that's self responsible but also honest. I think that's a reasonable course of action. But if someone is in casual contact with an ex in a way that is, for all intents and purposes, pretty above board, and they just have a good, friendly, amicable relationship and they keep in touch from time to time. I'm not sure that in that scenario, it's reasonable or advisable to say you need to stop speaking to her because I'm threatened by the fact that you guys still have a friendship and that you are in contact at all. I think that is maybe crossing the line from a reasonable request to being controlling from a place of insecurity.
0:11:52.65 → 0:12:26.51
So I think that's kind of the line that we'd be looking to draw and querying is there something that feels off about this situation? And again, it's not really the kind of thing that I can give you any kind of objective marker about because it will be contextual, but that's the level of discernment that we want to cultivate. Is there something that just doesn't feel right about this situation? Does it feel disrespectful in some way? Does it feel inappropriate or do they just have an amicable friendship and that's uncomfortable for you because you really struggle with jealousy and comparison and insecurity?
0:12:26.69 → 0:12:55.82
If the latter, then I think that's primarily your work. With that being said, I think you can still either way share vulnerably with your partner, what you're experiencing. But I don't know that it's one you can demand they change their behaviour so that you feel less insecure. Because ultimately if it's not the ex, it's going to be someone else, right? And just controlling our partner, saying oh, you can't speak to that woman at work or you can't chat to the barista or whatever else, right?
0:12:56.00 → 0:13:37.17
We're trying to control someone else's behaviour so that we don't have to deal with our insecurities that are fundamentally ours to deal with. Okay, the next 01:00 a.m. I being unreasonable when I ask my significant other to not like scandalous or seductive pictures of other women online. So this is something that I hear a lot, women who struggle with their partners, following a lot of accounts on Instagram that are essentially very provocative, let's say, to put it lightly and feeling uncomfortable with that. And this is one where I would personally say I don't think that's unreasonable at all.
0:13:37.32 → 0:14:36.19
I don't think that you can force someone not to do that. And I think that depending on their level of maturity, they might just get defensive and dig their heels in and really defend their right to do that. But I think that it's reasonable to feel uncomfortable with your partner consuming that content just so casually right, for their feed on Instagram or wherever else to be comprised of more or less naked women in a very provocative way. And for them to be not only curating their social media consumption towards that, but then to be engaging with it, to be liking commenting on that, that wouldn't feel comfortable for me either. I would feel personally that that was disrespectful to the relationship and I would certainly raise that if that were present in my relationship.
0:14:36.39 → 0:15:01.99
So I don't think that that's unreasonable. But I do think that there's probably a bigger conversation to be had there than just can you not like those pictures? And maybe if you can find it within yourself to approach that conversation, albeit a very vulnerable conversation with a level of curiosity rather than accusation and blame because I think if you just say what's wrong with you? That's so inappropriate. Can't you see how disrespectful that is to me?
0:15:02.11 → 0:15:30.35
Even though you may feel those things and again, I don't really blame you if you go at it with that energy, you might get defensiveness back. So maybe explaining it in a bit more of a vulnerable way, saying hey, I know that a lot of people do that, but here's how it impacts me, here's how I feel. Again, not saying that that was your intention, but this is what the impact is. Can we talk about that? Can I try and understand why that's appealing to you to do that?
0:15:30.44 → 0:15:59.72
Because it does have this impact on me and it doesn't feel good, doesn't feel respectful to our relationship and can we talk about it? So I think approaching the conversation in a way that is seeking to understand while also setting a boundary and making a request for a behaviour change there, I think that's absolutely reasonable. Okay, the next one is am I being unreasonable when I want my partner to cheque in and let me know they arrived home safely if they were out drinking? This one for me is reasonable. I do this.
0:15:59.82 → 0:16:41.67
And I think I've always done this. And yeah, I think that if you are wanting to know that your partner is safe and accounted for and you know that that can be an anxiety inducing experience when they're out drinking, I know that I can struggle with that. It's something that I don't know whether it's conditioning around, maybe more so for women that we're inclined to cheque in, that people have gotten home safe. I think that can be an element of it. But also, I know for a lot of people that there is anxiety around someone being out drinking and that's a whole nother conversation to be had at another time.
0:16:41.79 → 0:17:14.02
But I think that just a simple text to let someone know that you're home safe can really set one's heart at ease. And I don't think it's a huge ask. So if that helps to build and establish trust so that you don't feel anxious about those situations, then I think that that's a reasonable ask. Again, I don't think it needs to be delivered in a way that's controlling or demanding, but just contextualising how that is for you. And again, you can own that there's an anxiety piece to it.
0:17:14.07 → 0:18:10.96
I've certainly had that conversation with my partner saying, I realise that you don't necessarily care about this or you wouldn't think to do this without me asking, but I feel anxious when you're out drinking and it would mean a lot to me. If you could just keep me posted on where you're at and how you're tracking and when you expect to be home, all of those sorts of things. It really goes a long way in calming my system and I think that that is a reasonable ask for someone that you're in a relationship with. Okay, the last one for this episode is, am I being unreasonable when I want regular sleepovers, as he always leaves in the evening and says he sleeps better at home alone? So I think that this is one where we can find a compromise and that's really the essence of the messiness of secure relationships is we can meet in the middle and go, yeah, that's absolutely fine, that you sleep better at home alone.
0:18:11.02 → 0:18:34.86
I'm not going to judge you for that. I'm not going to make it mean that you don't love me or care about me or any of those other stories I might tell myself. I'm going to try not to feel too rejected or hurt for the fact that you don't sleep over and you prefer to sleep in your own bed. Fine. And I'm going to ask you to sometimes do the thing that I prefer, right.
0:18:34.99 → 0:19:02.95
Because I think that when it's just one person saying, I don't want to sleep over because I sleep better at home alone, therefore I'm never going to sleep over. Even though sleeping over means something to you and is what you desire. I think that's kind of being a bit selfish, to put it bluntly. So I think that to say I know that you prefer to sleep at home, but it would mean a lot to me if every so often you would sleep over, or even every other time. Right.
0:19:02.99 → 0:19:28.59
We can alternate between you sleeping over and not. Or maybe if it really is important to you that you get a good night's sleep before work, then maybe on a weekend you can sleep over, have the conversation in a way that is a negotiation. Essentially, you can advocate for your needs and preferences while not making someone wrong for their needs and preferences. But the point is that you find some sort of middle ground that works for both of you and that is how it works. Right.
0:19:28.71 → 0:20:07.43
I think that when there's sensitive things like this, and I think for a lot of people, something like sleepovers, particularly if it's after you've been intimate, that can feel really vulnerable. And you can really want the closeness of sleeping together, as in actually sleeping together after being intimate. And it can feel really painful for someone to just up and leave and say, oh, sorry, I sleep better at home. It can feel like a bit of a personal rejection. And so I think when we're feeling rejected, that we're probably the least inclined to voice a need because we already feel like we've been rejected.
0:20:07.48 → 0:21:09.47
And so to extend our request out when we don't feel like the other person's going to be receptive to it feels really risky and fair enough. So maybe this is a conversation not to have in the moment, not to have right then and there, but maybe to have at some other time when you feel like you've got a little bit more capacity and you've got a little bit more confidence and you can just share that. It would mean a lot to you if he could stay over once a week or twice a week at times when it is the least disruptive to his routine, if he doesn't get the best night's sleep ever. I think when we can give someone context for the meaning that it would mean a lot to us, then they're much more likely to cooperate with that and to compromise, because in the absence of you sharing that, he may just not know that it means anything to you. Sometimes we really have to make sure that we're giving someone the chance to meet our needs rather than just staying quiet and then being disappointed when our needs aren't met.
0:21:09.59 → 0:21:56.75
Okay, so that was the first part of this little series around am I being unreasonable? I hope that this has been helpful and has given you something to think about, has given you a bit of a sense for how you can approach these questions in a way that is not black and white. Unfortunately, black and white would be much easier, but it would be not in service of really building healthy, secure relationships because oftentimes there is a level of negotiation and nuance and context that's required to have these conversations and to make these assessments. But yeah, I hope that this has helped you to start building that muscle of discernment so that you can make those calls for yourself. And as I said, if you've enjoyed this episode in this format, do let me know so that I can bear that in mind when planning future episodes.
0:21:56.83 → 0:22:23.70
Thanks so much for joining me, guys. I look forward to seeing you again soon. Take care. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here. And I hope to see you again soon.
The Gift of Anxious-Avoidant Relationships
So much of the content around attachment theory focuses on the challenges that anxious-avoidant pairings can present. And while those challenges are undoubtedly very real, there are also real gifts within an anxious-avoidant dynamic when the individuals involved are prepared to meet in the middle. Today I’m sharing what those gifts can look like, and tips on making the most of your anxious-avoidant relationship so that it can become a space for healing.
So much of the content around attachment theory focuses on the challenges that anxious-avoidant pairings can present. And while those challenges are undoubtedly very real, there are also real gifts within an anxious-avoidant dynamic when the individuals involved are prepared to meet in the middle. Today I’m sharing what those gifts can look like, and tips on making the most of your anxious-avoidant relationship so that it can become a space for healing.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
How different attachment styles respond to stress
Leading with compassion and care
The work that needs to be done with both attachment styles
Lessons and opportunities within anxious-avoidant relationships
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Use the code JUNE50 for 50% off 3 masterclasses or the Higher Love Course stephanierigg.com
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.09 → 0:00:45.48
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's episode is titled The Gift of Anxious Avoidant Relationships and I'm going to be talking all about what some of the maybe under recognised or unexpected upsides of an anxious avoidant relationship can be.
0:00:45.61 → 0:01:45.79
So obviously, most of the discussions that we have around these particular attachment dynamics tend to be focusing on the ways in which it can be really challenging. And I will be the first to acknowledge and admit that it absolutely can present a lot of challenges to navigate those sometimes conflicting attachment dynamics. But I think there's also a reason that this pairing is so very common and there are certainly gifts present in that dynamic when the individuals involved are committed enough and have a capacity to do the work, to meet in the middle. And as a bit of a spoiler alert, I think that we could summarise The Gift of anxious avoidant Relationships as being that it invites us into the middle rather than hanging out at the extremes of our attachment patterns, which might be ostensibly conflicting. It really does invite us off the ledge and find some healthier way of being that is more akin to a secure centre point.
0:01:45.94 → 0:02:49.26
So I'm going to be sharing that today what those gifts can look like and where the growth edge for a more anxious leaning person versus a more avoidant leaning person can lie in those dynamics. And I suppose also some tips on how you can make sure that you're making the most of your anxious avoidant relationship so that it can be a healing relationship rather than one that reinforces painful patterns and old ways of being that maybe entrench you in your insecurity rather than inviting you into those new healing experiences. So that's what today is all about. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. A reminder again that for the month of June you can save 50% off my Masterclasses, including my best selling how to Navigate Anxious Avoidant Relationships masterclass, which is very much on theme with today's episode, so you can save 50% with the code June 50 on my website.
0:02:49.36 → 0:03:24.23
You can also go to the new On Attachment website onattachment.com and all of that is there should be relatively straightforward to find. My Master classes and my Higher Love course which is my breakup course is also on sale, so you can cheque that out for the month of June while I am gallivanting around Italy, you can enjoy a discount on my courses. Second quick announcement is just to share the featured review. This was a comment from Spotify which is stephanie is so insightful, sometimes hard to hear the information she shares is necessary and absolutely powerful. She's helped me to create change in how I show up in relationships.
0:03:24.31 → 0:03:46.78
Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I really appreciate it. And I agree. I think this stuff is hard to hear sometimes, but maybe it's the stuff that is hard to hear that is the most important to hear because it does hold up that mirror and invite us to get honest and get curious about our part in a dynamic. And that is ultimately what creates the possibility of growth and change.
0:03:46.88 → 0:04:26.88
So I'm glad that that's been your experience. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes. Okay, so let's dive into this big conversation around the gift of anxious avoidant relationships. Now, as I foreshadowed in the introduction, I will not lie to you and say that these dynamics are easy, that it's really not that hard, and you just have to do a three step plan and then all of a sudden you are free of the challenges that can arise in this anxious avoidant dynamic. That would be dishonest, and it's certainly not been my personal experience either.
0:04:26.93 → 0:05:22.91
I have been through the ringer, I've experienced a not so good anxious avoidant relationship and my current relationship, which I certainly lean more anxious and my partner leans more avoidant. But we've managed to navigate those dynamics in a way that feels so much healthier but also really healing for us both. It has allowed us to both relearn and rewire and reprogram a lot of our old stories around what it means to be in relationship, what it means to love and be loved, to depend on someone. And so I'm speaking today not only as coach and teacher, but also as human who has walked this path and continues to walk this path. So anxious avoidant relationships can be challenging.
0:05:22.99 → 0:05:51.41
We all know that most people listening are either in one or have been in one. And so we all know that that can be hard, right? For very obvious reasons. Some of the core needs around relationship things like connection, intimacy, time spent together, whole attitude and approach to needs, conflict. Anxious people and avoidant people can really differ in the strategies that they use to create safety for themselves.
0:05:51.50 → 0:06:20.91
And this is essentially what we're talking about when we're talking about attachment styles is how do I respond to stress in relationship? For an anxious person, their response to stress and stress is usually caused by distance or uncertainty. I go in, right? I try and close the gap, I try to get closer to you to restore connection, which makes me feel safe again. For a more avoidant person, the way to deal with stress is I need to retreat, I need to create distance for myself.
0:06:21.08 → 0:06:58.32
And the cause of stress is likely to be feeling smothered or feeling like there's been a loss of self or loss of independence, feeling criticised, feeling blamed, feeling controlled or attacked. And so we have these conflicting wounds and seemingly conflicting strategies because in times of stress, and most often in relationships, stress is contagious. So if one person is stressed, the other will become stressed. And in this time of stress, team Anxious wants to close the gap and team Avoidant wants to widen the gap. And so it really can be hard for both people to get what they need in those moments when you are feeling stress in your relationship.
0:06:58.45 → 0:07:35.79
So just wanted to set the scene and acknowledge like, yes, this can be really challenging. And all of the dynamics that flow from that, all of the behaviours and all of the permutations of that dynamic essentially boil down to the differing approaches to stress management. I always really appreciate that way of viewing these attachment dynamics because I think that it's very humanising and very compassionate. And despite the fact that the strategies look different, the core desire is I'm trying to create safety for myself. And so it's much harder to blame or judge someone for doing the same thing that we're doing.
0:07:35.86 → 0:08:07.54
They're just doing it in a different way, they're just trying to create safety the same way you are, and they just might have learned a different strategy. So while that starting point, and I think again, it'd be fair to acknowledge that most couples do not have the tools, do not have the capacity to get out of that rut. Because the vast majority of us go through life, go through relationships blind, more or less, we are on autopilot and that is simply because we are doing what we've always done, right? We're doing what we've learned. And those strategies have served a purpose in our lives.
0:08:07.59 → 0:08:42.94
They've kept us safe and so we will continue to do them until we have a level of conscious awareness around them and awareness of the impact that they're having and the ways in which they might actually be inhibiting us from experiencing the kind of relationship that we desire. But in times of stress, we get selfish, right? And we become really tunnel visioned and we default to our tried and tested strategies for creating safety. So how do we shift these patterns in a way that allows us to access the gift of anxious avoidant relationships? This is really the essence of the work, right?
0:08:43.12 → 0:09:58.74
And it's so, so powerful and so, so important and it's something that I really deeply believe in at a fundamental level, because I do believe that when done right, this dynamic can heal us, right? So what does this look like? I already alluded to the importance of compassion, and I think that the more we can see someone with compassionate eyes and get curious about them, as well as getting curious about our own stuff, all of a sudden there's these new possibilities that emerge because instead of seeing that person as a threat which is what we will all do by default when we feel stressed in relationship we see lions everywhere, we start to see them as a person in fear and we start to be able to relate to them with a compassionate heart and with that energy of care. And I think that from that place we can start considering oh okay, this person that I love and care about is feeling stressed, how can I support them, what might they need? And finding ways to access that and really take steps towards a middle ground, as I said before, it's like coming off our ledges at the extremes and taking steps towards the centre where we can find space for both of us to exist and thrive here.
0:09:58.84 → 0:10:51.35
So how do we then access this gift of anxious avoidant relationships? How do we shift into growth mode in our anxious avoidant relationship rather than pain mode or stuck mode? And I think the thing I want to focus on here and that I want to invite you to focus on is that for the anxious person in any relationship, your primary work is in your relationship with yourself. Because your baseline focus is always going to be on safety via the other person or security via the other person to a degree that is an over indexation, meaning I am overly reliant on you to make me feel safe. I have an underdeveloped capacity for self regulation and for self soothing and for being with myself.
0:10:51.47 → 0:11:32.39
And so that is your work. And you will have heard me say that before on the podcast, that the greatest gift you can give yourself as a more anxious leaning person, whether you are single or in a relationship, is to build up your comfort. Level with being by yourself or diversifying your energy so that you don't become so exclusively focused on your relationship as the source of all satisfaction and worth and comfort in your life. Because I think that is the default mode for a lot of anxious people. So the anxious person's primary work is in self regulation and self focus pivoting from focus on the other back to focus on the self.
0:11:32.51 → 0:12:39.96
Contrast this with the avoidant person's primary work which is in co regulation because their ability to be with self is pretty well developed and arguably the avoidant person tends to be overly reliant on their very well developed capacity to be either alone or to self regulate or to be comfortable with their own company. And so when you're in an anxious avoidant relationship, as the anxious person, you are going to be called to do the very work that is most important for you to do more broadly, which is become more comfortable with self regulation because your avoidant partner is likely to test that in you. Right. They are going to give you plenty of opportunity to work on that growth edge, which is being by yourself or being able to self soothe. Because if they have a greater preference, for example, independence or time apart or space, that's going to really test you.
0:12:40.06 → 0:13:45.54
And again you can either use those tests as an opportunity to reenact old patterns, to spiral, to escalate, to protest, to make meaning out of the fact that they need more time or space or whatever it might be. Or you can take that as the training ground and go okay, this is my opportunity to build up my own capacity to be with myself. Rather than, for example when your partner is wanting some space or they're doing stuff on their own that doesn't involve you, rather than just counting down the minutes until you're going to come back into connection, you get to see what is possible in that space in your own relationship with yourself, in your life. And whether that's spending more time cultivating friendships or hobbies or other points of interest in your own life rather than feeding the tendency to over index on your relationship which is, as I said, an easy place to go for most anxious people. Now for the avoidant person, you are going to get called into your growth work as well.
0:13:45.59 → 0:15:08.46
Because if your growth work is in increasing your comfort level with closeness and intimacy and connection co regulation, learning to meet someone else's needs or to increase your capacity to be needed, then your anxious partner is going to give you plenty of opportunities to work on that as well because they do have really high connection needs. They do want to be close to you, they do want affection and love in a very overt way and so they are going to call you into your growth edge, they are going to test you and they are going to invite you to step towards those experiences. That might be uncomfortable but it might just be the exact medicine that you need. And again, you can see that it can be either healing or if you let the old patterns take you into their grip then you might experience that as oh, these people are too much, it's too overwhelming, too demanding, too needy, not safe, right? But can you see here that for both people their primary work is being called forward in this relationship and if there is enough safety, if there is enough commitment and love and care and respect in the relationship, then you will both be invited into the medicine that you need in order to become more whole, right?
0:15:08.59 → 0:15:52.97
So again, for the anxious person, wholeness lies in finding more balance within yourself by building up the self part. And for the avoidant partner, wholeness lies in finding that balance by building up the togetherness part because the self part is already well developed. And so through this dynamic you both get to meet in the middle. You both get to become more whole and more balanced individually and relationally. So that is what I wanted to offer you as an insight into the gift of anxious avoidant relationships, both as a reminder of your individual work, if you are more anxious or more avoidant, a reminder of the essence of your work.
0:15:53.12 → 0:16:48.13
And of course, that can look like a lot of different things in Practise, but that is kind of the North Star and reminding yourself if you're in an anxious avoidant dynamic, that that is your work within the relationship as well. So the next time you're being frustrated or hurt or triggered, reminding yourself, what is the lesson for me here? What's the opportunity? Am I digging in my heels at an extreme place and am I reenacting or entrenching or reinforcing old patterns? Is there an opportunity for me to step off the ledge and take steps towards the centre, to cultivate more wholeness and more balance within myself, more trust and safety in my relationship in a way that will allow it to be healing and restorative rather than fracturing and reinforcing of those old painful patterns?
0:16:48.23 → 0:17:32.21
So I hope that that's given you something to think about and maybe given you some hope if you are in an anxious avoidant relationship. As I said at the start, I know that the dominant discourse around this tends to be quite negative in focus, emphasising the ways in which this dynamic is painful and hard, doomed even, depending on who you listen to. So I hope that it gives you a sense of what's possible and the opportunities that exist for you within this dynamic when it's done right. If you've enjoyed this episode, so grateful as always. If you can leave a five star rating or review, you can leave a little comment on Spotify, share it with the people in your life, share it on social media, it all helps so much and I appreciate all of you and I look forward to seeing you again next time.
0:17:32.30 → 0:17:56.04
Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
5 Reasons Why People Cheat
A couple of weeks ago, I shared my thoughts on if “once a cheater, always a cheater” is true, and today I’m continuing the conversation around the reasons why people cheat in a relationship and getting curious around what’s driving these behaviours. For some people this may be a challenging episode to listen to, so please make sure you’re in the right mindset to listen.
A couple of weeks ago, I shared my thoughts on if “once a cheater, always a cheater” is true, and today I’m continuing the conversation around the reasons why people cheat in a relationship and getting curious around what’s driving these behaviours. For some people this may be a challenging episode to listen to, so please make sure you’re in the right mindset to listen.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Wounds around worthiness
Disconnection and loneliness
Feeling like it’s the easy way out
Being seen through rose coloured glasses
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Use the code JUNE50 for 50% off 3 masterclasses or the Higher Love Course -stephanierigg.com
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.09 → 0:00:34.30
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. It's hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, we are talking all about infidelity.
0:00:34.49 → 0:01:40.88
Now, this is a big topic and it's a really sensitive topic and for some people it's a really hard topic if you have been in the position of being cheated on or otherwise grappling with some sort of betrayal in your relationship. So I just want to say at the outset that for some people this might be a really challenging episode to listen to and so obviously be discerning and make sure that you are in the right state of mind. If you are someone who does struggle to talk and hear about this and might be challenged by what we're going to talk about today. So I'm going to be sharing five reasons why people might cheat in a relationship. And there are so many disclaimers that I want to add here, because I think that it's so important to understand that when we seek to get curious about why someone might do something like cheating in their relationship, that that curiosity is in no way intended to justify, to explain, to excuse behaviours that are harmful and that do amount to a breach of trust, do amount to a betrayal.
0:01:40.96 → 0:02:44.94
So letting both of those be true, right? Holding in one hand the curiosity while also allowing yourself to feel if you have been cheated on, allowing yourself to feel all of the things that you feel, because that's perfectly understandable and very human for that to be an extremely painful experience. So in no way is any discussion of reasons why someone might do this intended to excuse or explain away that behaviour, to justify it or make it okay. But I think that it's important for us to get curious because the simple fact of the matter is that cheating is really, really common, much more so than we'd like to believe, but it is very, very prevalent. And so I think we have to get curious around what's going on here, what's driving these behaviours and how can we seek to understand that and maybe seek to build relationships with ourselves and with others that don't fall prey to this.
0:02:44.99 → 0:03:38.70
And again, I'm choosing my words very carefully because in no way am I suggesting that if you've been in relationship or you are in relationship with someone where there's been infidelity, not suggesting it is your responsibility to improve the relationship single handedly so that your partner doesn't cheat, right? This is complex. That's why I am treading lightly because there's a lot in this, and particularly if you're someone who is more anxiously attached, there's a good chance that you are experiencing a lot of self blame and a lot of responsibility taking. If this has happened to you feeling like you should have done more or could have done something differently, or that it was your fault in some way if your partner cheated on you and feeling that urge to fix it and to close the gap between you. So that was a bit of a long intro, but it speaks to the delicacy and complexity of this topic.
0:03:38.76 → 0:04:24.99
So please know that I'm going to do my best to deal with this in a sensitive way while also asking the hard questions and delving a little into what can be under the surface. And my hope is that in doing so, we can depersonalise a little. Because as we'll see in today's discussion, none of these five reasons are because their partner is not good enough, or because their partner is not attractive, or their partner is insert whatever harmful thing you might have been telling yourself that makes this your fault. Right? In the vast majority of cases, I would say people cheat because of their own stuff, whether that's unmet needs or disconnection or shame or unworthiness or any of the other things we'll get into today.
0:04:25.14 → 0:05:05.74
I think it's very rare that it's as simple as, oh, I'm just not attracted to my partner, or oh, I just want a cheap thrill and so I'm going to go and have a fling with someone. I think those cases are really the minority. I think oftentimes there's much more complicated stuff going on on an individual level under the surface that drive people to these patterns. It's really very much a sign of our shadow working. So hopefully, even if it is hard to hear, it will help you to see that if you've been cheated on, if you've been in this situation, that a lot of it is not about you and probably mostly all of it is not about you.
0:05:05.79 → 0:05:58.22
So it might, at the very least, alleviate some of that self blame and shame and the low self worth that can flow from these situations. Before I dive into the meat of today's conversation, a couple of quick announcements. If you're listening to this, by the date that this is released, I will be in Italy running my first retreat, which is very, very exciting. Then I will be travelling around Italy for the month of June and I've decided while I'm away I will continue to have podcasts coming out, but I'm going to offer 50% off on all of my Master classes and my Higher Love course, which is my Breakup course. So if you use the code June 50 on my website on any of those three Master classes, or my Higher Love course, you can save 50% on those.
0:05:58.27 → 0:06:30.53
So that is as big a discount as I ever give. So, as a great opportunity over this next month while I am travelling, to get in on some of those programmes at a great price. So you can head to stephaniereg.com or via the link in the show notes and use the code June 50 to save 50% on any of those online products. Second quick announcement is just to share the featured review for today, which is I'm so grateful I found this podcast. As a therapist, it's been really helpful in deepening my understanding about attachment in a gentle and non shaming way.
0:06:30.65 → 0:06:47.61
The podcast is very relatable and easy to digest. Not only do I personally get so much from the podcast, but I can also recommend it to clients. Thanks so much for sharing your wisdom. Thank you for that beautiful review. I'm honoured that you are not only finding it personally helpful, but are able to share it with the people that you're working with.
0:06:47.65 → 0:07:06.55
That's beautiful to see the ripple effect of this work and to see it helping so many people. So thank you for your support. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com. My team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes of your choice. Okay, let's dive into this conversation.
0:07:06.65 → 0:07:28.67
Five reasons why people might cheat in their relationship. Now, again, I know that I tend to go heavy on the disclaimers, but I think when they're important conversations like this, and heavy and sensitive conversations, it's important to frame them appropriately. This is not an exhaustive list of if you've been cheated on. It must have been one of these five reasons. It's not the only five reasons.
0:07:28.77 → 0:07:42.14
These are five reasons why people might cheat. Okay? So take all of that with all of the grains of salt, be discerning. As always, I will trust you to take what works, what is helpful from this and leave what doesn't. Okay?
0:07:42.27 → 0:08:30.67
The first reason why people cheat in their relationships is unworthiness. So this can show up in a lot of different ways. And I think that most of us have some level of unworthiness, some kind of wound around worthiness. If you listen to my previous episode with Vienna Farron, she talks about the worthiness wound as one of the key origin wounds and how we all have some level of worthiness wound. But for those who really struggle with extremely low self worth, there can be a sense of I don't feel that I am worthy of the relationship that I have, I don't feel deserving of the relationship that I have, I don't have any self respect, I hate myself or I don't like myself.
0:08:30.82 → 0:09:26.21
And so I may as well do this thing that maybe because it feels good, maybe because I get attention, maybe because I get validation, maybe because I just feel so thoroughly undeserving of the person I'm in relationship with. But that unworthiness wound can have a lot of tendrils or tentacles that come from it that can lead us to really behave in shadowy ways. So it can just lead us to kind of want to blow things up for ourselves, or maybe not to see the point in trying in relationships or to just do what feels fun and cheap and easy rather than what feels in integrity. And again, I think that can really come from a lack of self respect and a lack of self trust and self boundaries. All of these things that I think are symptoms of a fundamental sense of unworthiness.
0:09:26.79 → 0:10:13.71
So noticing that and really recognising, that an unworthiness wound. While that's not going to drive everyone to infidelity, it certainly can be a way that we can sabotage our relationships from a place of feeling like we don't deserve them, that we're not worthy of love. And whether that's trying to destroy what we have, or whether it's desperately seeking the cheap win of someone else's attention or validation, I think that unworthiness can definitely be a factor in driving people to infidelity in their relationships. Okay, the next one that I want to share is loneliness or disconnection. So this one's probably more relational than the others.
0:10:13.91 → 0:11:01.37
So in circumstances where we feel disconnected and I think that this probably is more true of more avoidant leaning people, that there can be this sense of I feel disconnected from you, I feel like you don't like me anyway, you're always angry at me, you're always upset with me. And so I feel kind of like you don't care anyway. I feel so far away from you, we're so unhappy I may as well cheat because our relationships kind of in the dust anyway. And so there can be these mental acrobatics that people do of you wouldn't care anyway. Our relationship is practically over.
0:11:01.49 → 0:11:33.27
It's all a sham anyway. We're going to break up. So I might as well just follow this thing. Whether it's again like a cheap one off or whether it's exploring a connection with someone new. I think that sense of the primary relationship being really frayed and disconnected that people can justify infidelity as not so much revenge, but a sense of someone being so indifferent towards them for such a long time.
0:11:33.31 → 0:12:21.99
And the immense loneliness that flows from that and the immense disconnection. And I think that loneliness within a relationship is very, very sad and very, very common, that people feel so much suffering because the person who is meant to be their source of safety and comfort, their rock, their stability, that source of companionship is actually the source of a lot of pain and disappointment and sadness and grief. And I think that the loneliness that flows from that can be so immense that we want to blame that person and we want to justify our own selfish behaviours by pointing to that and saying, well, what would you expect me to do? You haven't paid attention to me in years. Or, you never even care when I do this.
0:12:22.03 → 0:12:57.78
Or why would you care if I go and have an affair? With someone or cheat on you. So I think that that kind of story, that version of events is usually coming from a place of loneliness or disconnection. The next one that I want to share is sabotage. So for some people, and this can be conscious or not, for some people, they want out of the relationship or they feel so overwhelmed by the relationship, maybe they feel very triggered by it, maybe they struggle with avoidance and they can't bring themselves to actually end the relationship.
0:12:57.91 → 0:13:40.51
So they just try and torpedo it with behaviour that they think is going to be a non negotiable deal breaker for their partner. So they might sabotage the relationship by cheating, by doing something really reckless, by making a bad decision. And sometimes they can do this in a way that they feel like they're going to get caught and they almost want to get caught. Again, that might be conscious or not. But when we feel like we don't want to directly say to someone, I'm not happy, or I don't want to be with you, or any other thing that might make them very sad and upset and hurt, sometimes turning ourselves into the villain or into the bad guy feels like the easy way out.
0:13:40.63 → 0:14:28.94
Somewhat ironically, obviously, it's not a situation that we think of as pleasant or easy, but in a twisted way, sometimes making yourself into the villain feels like an easier option than just going to a partner and saying, I don't love you anymore, I'm not happy here, or I want out of this relationship. Sometimes leaning towards a big blow up that sort of takes the decision out of your hands and makes someone just so angry and furious that you've crossed a clear line and there's no turning back. Sometimes that allows us to bypass some of the messy stuff of just being vulnerable about how we're feeling in a situation. So that sabotage. And again, this can show up in a lot of different ways, a lot of different permutations and situations.
0:14:29.00 → 0:15:23.89
But I think that wanting out of the relationship and sabotaging it through infidelity as a way to really tip you over that clear line of a breach of trust that will hopefully remove a lot of the conversation and the negotiation that might otherwise happen. That is a strategy that some people can use and that can be one of the reasons that people might engage in infidelity the next reason why people might cheat. And I think that this is one that's really overlooked a lot of the time, is that they like who they get to be with the other person. So it's not so much about like, oh, this other person is so amazing and they're so attractive and they're so much better than my partner. It's this other person sees me with fresh eyes, this other person thinks I'm incredible, I'm not saddled with the baggage with this new person.
0:15:23.96 → 0:16:32.01
They don't feel frustrated with me, they aren't disappointed in me, they don't see me through the lens of a long term relationship with unmet needs and fights and conflict loops and all of those things that can lead a relationship to feel a bit heavy and exhausting sometimes. So there can be this sense of having a clean slate with another person, or even better than a clean slate, having that newness of when you first meet someone and connect with them. And you have such rose coloured classes. And so not only is it how good it feels to be attracted to someone in that way, but to have someone be attracted to you in that way, to be so excited about you, to think that you're incredible and really put you on a pedestal. If you've felt for a long time like your partner is only critical of you, or your partner doesn't see you in a very positive light or is consistently disappointed, then it can be very, very attractive to gravitate towards someone who does see you in that positive light.
0:16:32.08 → 0:17:49.13
So again, this is certainly not to suggest that it's the person who has been cheated on's, fault for driving someone to cheat on them. I don't think that that's a fair allocation of responsibility. But it can be a relational dynamic if the relationship has become really unloving or it's just not an atmosphere that has a lot of positive emotion and admiration and respect that's freely given and exchanged between partners, that the allure of someone who sees you with clean eyes and even rose coloured glasses can be very, very alluring for people related to that. One is not only do you get to present yourself anew with someone, but you might be able to experiment with new ways of expression that feel a bit vulnerable or edgy with your partner. I had an episode a little while ago with Vanessa and Xander Marin, she's a sex therapist and she was talking about a pattern that happens in virtually all long term relationships without effort to counter it, which is that our range of sexual expression tends to narrow a lot.
0:17:49.22 → 0:18:59.96
So while we might start being a little sexually adventurous with our partner and having a lot of sexual chemistry and intensity, not only does the chemistry and intensity tend to taper a little, which is normal, but what we do sexually or romantically, physically, we tend to get quite into a routine around that. And in a weird way, it feels much more vulnerable to try new things or to experiment, or to put yourself out there with your long term partner with whom you have these routines and these ways of being. It feels much more vulnerable to show those sides of you to express a fantasy or a desire or anything like that. Way more vulnerable to do that with a long term partner than it does to share with someone with whom you're having a one night stand. So I think that that other aspect of liking who you get to be with the other person or experimenting with who you get to be with the other person without the hangover of it being your partner and having to face them the next day and the next day and the next day.
0:19:00.09 → 0:19:46.21
That can be something that drives people to be really attracted to the idea of infidelity. And again, if we dig into that a little we can see that shame and embarrassment and self consciousness is really at the heart of that. So again, not about the partner but really about the individual and all of their shadowy stuff and all of their wounded parts that are using these strategies to keep themselves safe. So the last reason that I want to share is sometimes people will cheat to get their partner's attention. So it might be trying to almost as a last ditch effort to say like I'm here and I need you and why aren't you paying attention to me?
0:19:46.25 → 0:20:42.87
Why aren't you taking seriously all of these things that I'm saying when I say to you that I'm unhappy and that I'm lonely and that I need you and you're not here. It can almost be like raising the stakes or taking things up a notch by cheating. And that might be physical infidelity or it might be an emotional affair, but it can almost be a way of threatening a partner, saying like I have other options so don't take me for granted. So I would say this is probably more likely to be seen among anxiously attached people, this tendency to almost not so much mate switch, which is the evolutionary psychological term for this, but to try and make a partner jealous I suppose is essentially what it is. It's saying like don't get complacent around me.
0:20:42.99 → 0:21:27.57
And when they feel like they're not being taken seriously or being heard or being valued, then they might cheat or take steps towards that as a way to really raise the stakes and get their partner's attention to say, if you don't start taking me seriously, here's what I'm going to do. So you better start listening and paying attention. So that can definitely be a pattern. And as I said, that's more likely to happen around anxiously attached people. And the reason for that is simply that we can contrast a couple of these examples whereas the sabotage limb of this tends to be more for avoidant people, where the strategy is essentially to create distance.
0:21:27.73 → 0:22:17.08
I do this to increase the distance between us because that's what my avoidance strategies would have me do. This more anxious strategy which is cheating or being unfaithful or taking steps towards that to get someone's attention is actually not about creating distance, it's trying to narrow the gap. And again, that sounds crazy, right? It sounds like the opposite of what you would want to do but it's like I'm being unfaithful to try and save our relationship to try and get you to notice me, because I'm terrified that you don't notice me or that you don't care or that you are indifferent to what I do. And so it's ultimately a way to try and close that gap, but obviously not a very healthy or advisable strategy because it can do a lot of harm in the process.
0:22:17.95 → 0:23:07.42
So those were five reasons why people might cheat in a relationship. Just to recap, those were that they have an unworthiness wound and they feel undeserving of their relationship and so their shadow parts kind of grab the wheel and drive them to behave in really reckless ways from a place of not feeling worthy, not feeling deserving of good things. The second one was feeling lonely and disconnected and feeling like infidelity is either a stepping stone to breaking up or feeling like the relationship is dead in the water already. So what does it really matter? It's sort of this sense of despondency and having given up on the relationship and checked out, so it feels like cheating is kind of inconsequential.
0:23:07.53 → 0:24:02.32
The next one was sabotage. So when someone uses cheating as a way to blow up their relationship because they can't bring themselves to actually have the conversation directly and deal with someone's sadness or pleading or anything like that, so they really torpedo it in a way that means it's probably too far gone to salvage. The fourth one was they like who they get to be with the other person that allows them to experience a side of themselves or be seen in a certain way that they're missing in their relationship. And the last one was to make their partner jealous or to get their partner's attention, often as a last ditch way to try and save the relationship or to get their partner to notice them when they're feeling invisible or taken for granted. If you've enjoyed this episode, I hope that it has really been helpful.
0:24:02.38 → 0:25:05.33
And as I said at the start, I know it's a really tough conversation to have and brings up a lot of things for a lot of people, but it really is very common and so I'm hoping that it's at least given you a bit more perspective and curiosity. Again, not to excuse this behaviour, but to understand what might be driving it and what's going on under the hood that isn't simply, I'm not good enough, or they didn't love me, because often that is not at all the driver. And if you're listening to this, and you've been the person who has cheated, who's been unfaithful, who's breached a boundary, and you feel a lot of shame and guilt around that, I'm hoping that today's discussion, equally, has been supportive for you in understanding what some of the drivers might be, other than I'm a terrible person. Because I think we can beat ourselves up about this, when really, as I said, it's incredibly common, and most of the time it's just coming from a wounded place rather than being a cold, heartless person who is out to hurt people. Because I think that is a tiny minority of cases.
0:25:05.43 → 0:25:34.61
And the more that we can be compassionate towards ourselves, the more likely we are to be able to shift that pattern and make sure it doesn't happen in future relationships, rather than letting those shadow parts run the show. So if you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a five star rating or a review. It really does help so much. And a final reminder that you can get 50% off any of my Master classes on my course for the month of June on my website with the code June 50. All one word.
0:25:34.73 → 0:25:57.08
Thanks guys. I look forward to seeing you again soon. Take care. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephaniergig.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating.
0:25:57.14 → 0:26:01.42
It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
Understanding Your Origin Wounds with Vienna Pharaon
In today's episode, I'm joined by Vienna Pharaon. Vienna is a licensed marriage & family therapist, creator of the hugely successful @mindfulmft Instagram account, and recently published author of The Origins of You. Vienna has the gift of conveying complex and emotionally dense topics with such nuance. Today she joins me on the podcast to talk about origin wounds and how they impact patterns in relationships as adults and how we can honour our pain and experience.
In today's episode, I'm joined by Vienna Pharaon. Vienna is a licensed marriage & family therapist, creator of the hugely successful @mindfulmft Instagram account, and recently published author of The Origins of You. Vienna has the gift of conveying complex and emotionally dense topics with such nuance. Today she joins me on the podcast to talk about origin wounds and how they impact patterns in relationships as adults and how we can honour our pain and experience.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
What happens when you hide behind a façade of being "fine"
The five origin wounds (worthiness, belonging, trust, safety and prioritisation)
Why we might struggle to explore our family dynamics
What happens when we avoid being in pain properly
Finding peace with the pain
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.17 → 0:00:33.58
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge, and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment.
0:00:33.61 → 0:01:05.66
Today I'm joined by Vienna. Vienna, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. So you've just released a book, The Origins of you, which I am partway through, and I have to say, maybe like a few pages in. I was listening to the audiobook, but what I imagine would be a few pages into the introduction, and I was in tears, vouch for the fact that it's incredible. And your work, more broadly has been so insightful for me.
0:01:05.76 → 0:02:05.80
I was saying to my partner in advance of recording this that in the early days of my Instagram account a few years ago, before I had any confidence to share any original thought, I think my Instagram account was more or less a proxy fan account of yours. We share so much of your work because it is so profoundly insightful and you have such a gift for conveying really complex, emotionally dense and tender topics with such nuance and in a way that is so compassionate and really invites people, I suppose, to feel safe to turn towards those things in this work. So I love for people who are maybe not familiar with your work, although I suspect many people will be. You focus a lot on family systems and origin wounds. Can you give a little context for why that's so important and why that's kind of the lens and the starting point for your work with people?
0:02:06.97 → 0:02:14.31
Yeah. And thank you for that generous introduction. Yeah. Just taking that in. Thank you.
0:02:14.46 → 0:02:56.67
I came into this work unsurprisingly, as most therapists do, to resolve that which was unresolved in my own life. And I chuckle because I think sometimes we know it as therapists that that's why we're entering into this field of work, and other times we don't know. And I didn't really know it. I think I had taken an aptitude test when I was in 7th grade, and it said that I would either do something in sports or I would become a marriage therapist. And I got into psychology, and I was curious about relationships, and I got into this work not actually knowing that there was unresolved pain in my life.
0:02:56.87 → 0:03:28.73
We'll rewind a little bit. My parents went through a separation, nine year divorce process when I was in first grade. And when I look back on it now with perspective, it was highly conflictual, really hard to be around and witness. There was a lot of psychological abuse, manipulation, gaslighting, paranoia, emotional flooding, just high, high, high conflict. And I am an only child, so as a little tiny human in this system.
0:03:28.93 → 0:03:50.96
One of the things that I took on was believing that there wasn't space for me to not be okay. Because what I saw were the two adults in my life not being okay. And whether that was true or not didn't really matter. What mattered was that was my perspective as a tiny human existing in this environment. And so I started to fly under the radar.
0:03:51.02 → 0:04:22.47
I started to really present as a needless little girl. I was always okay, I was always fine, I was always unaffected. And that role that developed early on really came through with me into my adult years and relationships. And I continued to be this needless woman, was always fine, the cool girl persona, totally unaffected by things, boundaryless, et cetera, et cetera. And it's funny, when I started my graduate work, my parents divorced.
0:04:22.52 → 0:04:33.41
Didn't affect me, I promise. They're good friends now. We do holidays together. They can drive in the same car. I had all these explanations and reasons for why it did not affect me.
0:04:33.48 → 0:05:21.70
And what it eventually brought me to was that I had to hold that position in my life because not holding that position would require me to feel not holding that position would require me to make space for me to have not been okay. And that was a very overwhelming and confronting thing for me to be with for a long period of time. And there's a catalyst in my mid, late 20s that really brought me to the surrender, really brought me to my knees. It's like, oh, my gosh, I see that I have maintained this role forever my entire life, and there's no room for me to not be okay. There's no room for me to have an emotional experience.
0:05:22.39 → 0:05:58.60
This was still just the extension of what I had internalised and absorbed as a little girl. And that's a bit of my personal story. But professionally, I continued to come up against this, like people who would present with unwanted patterns in their adult lives where they weren't able to just make a behavioural shift. And what I kept finding was that it kept being tied to unresolved wounding that happened in their past. I take the lens of looking at our family of origin.
0:05:58.70 → 0:06:35.82
Obviously, there are plenty of other influences that affect us along the way. Media, society, coaches, teachers, past partners. There's plenty of influence that will contribute to this. But I look at our family of origin the first place, the first model, our first education on all of the things from communication to conflict to boundaries, to what love is, what love is not, what safety is, what safety is not, and so forth. And to look at how those frameworks are running the show today.
0:06:36.75 → 0:07:15.63
Yeah, and thank you for sharing that snippet of your story. That was really what impacted me when I was listening because it really struck very deeply. And I think my kind of inner child, my wounded little one, felt so seen by that story, because even though our circumstances are different, that was very much my pattern in my family system, as well as my parents relationship. They're still together now, but definitely went through pretty regular cycles of strain and, oh, we're going to get divorced. Oh, wait, no, we're not.
0:07:15.72 → 0:08:02.20
From when I was very young. And so, in addition to that piece, my sister struggled with her mental health and so there was really this experience of, like, why would I want to contribute to the tension and the drama and all of this stuff that's going on that feels so unsafe for me. My only priority in this system is to stabilise other people and to not contribute to all of that stuff that's going on. In my first therapy session a couple of years ago, I turned up and sat down and sort of proclaimed that I was low maintenance. I just had to figure out whether I needed to leave my relationship with my partner at the time, who was bringing up so much stuff like, yeah, I'm fine, it's just about him.
0:08:03.77 → 0:08:35.75
I can be the priority. Yeah. And you can imagine the raised eyebrow that I got plonking myself down in the therapy chair and declaring my low maintenance, saying, yeah, I've always been the low maintenance one. I'm pretty go with the flow. I don't really have much by way of needs, but I keep coming it up against these patterns and I can kind of look back on that and laugh at it now, but, yeah, I think it is, it's like the being fine is evidence of the wound.
0:08:35.80 → 0:09:03.11
And it's not to say that that's a bad thing, but it costs us, I think is a good way of looking at it. There was a line in your book, I was driving, listening to the audiobook and I had to pull over and write it in my notes. I think you're actually quoting I think it was Alexandra Solomon. You said, I'm going to butcher it like our wounds and our gifts are next door neighbours, or maybe vice versa. And I thought that was so beautiful, I actually used it as sort of a discussion point in my Mastermind programme this week.
0:09:03.23 → 0:09:54.34
But looking at it's not that these things are bad or wrong, it's that we've come up with strategies to keep ourselves safe and get our needs met from a very young age. And they are formative in moulding us and who we become and how we move about the world. So I think that it's a really compassionate lens to see ourselves in that light, rather than to feel like this is a pattern that I have to break because there's something wrong with me and seeing it as some sort of defect. Yeah, that's the reframe, right, is that our systems are brilliant systems. Our systems are incredibly clever and instead of being at odds with them instead of being in the shame, in the guilt, in the embarrassment, in the frustration, irritation, annoyance of oh, here we go again, right?
0:09:54.52 → 0:11:01.03
It's to replace that with the curiosity of what is this behaviour serving to be fine, which is something that you and I both can connect to, was part of the survival, was part of how we learned to navigate through the system at that time. And as you pointed out, if we continue to hold on to I am fine all the time, what that does is it decenters us, it makes it so that there's no space for us to have anything outside of being fine as something that can be prioritised. And all of the things that that affects is intimacy, connection, ability to actually communicate, ability to be in conflict in an authentic way. So we start to see how the things that allowed us to survive back in the day may be blocking many of the things that we crave and wish for. The quote about our pain and our gifts being next to our neighbours, it's a powerful message.
0:11:01.20 → 0:11:25.27
Most people will say well, I wouldn't be who I am today without what happened. That is true. The valid point and this fear that if we actually tune into what happened that that somehow means that it will eradicate our gifts. That somehow we will lose our edge. That somehow this piece, this part of ourselves that became exceptional at whatever the thing is.
0:11:25.34 → 0:12:27.65
So I became exceptional at following stories, at listening to the details, at never forgetting something. Because when you grow up in an environment where there is a lot of manipulation, where there's psychological abuse, where there's gaslighting for me, what that required of me was to scan my environment constantly, to look for what was true and what was not true. To remember every last thing that was said so that I couldn't be hoodwinked. And what that turned me into was a phenomenal therapist who remembers everything that people tells her, who can follow a story successfully. And the difference though, so that we do not have the intersection of trauma and gifts is that there is a shift at some point where our gifts are either motivated by the pain or by the trauma or by the wounding or they're motivated by the healing.
0:12:27.78 → 0:12:54.73
And when we can step into the awareness that I can still have this gift, even though I am tending to my pain. There's such a beautiful opening that happens there, and that feels so important for me to say out loud to your listeners. Because I think a lot of times people hold on to the story of, well, but I am who I am today. I'm proud of who this person is. And yes, be proud of who you are, absolutely.
0:12:54.90 → 0:13:19.03
And the gifts that you acquired through going through the hard things that you went through, those gifts will not be taken. But you do not need to hold on to the pain in the same way and be motivated and driven by that pain in order to still show up in the world today in this incredible way that you do. Yeah. Beautiful. I'm thinking it might be useful if we sort of took a step back.
0:13:19.07 → 0:13:53.69
And I know that a lot of people have a level of resistance around looking at family stuff and a level of kind of innate protectiveness over how their childhood played out. And again, I can relate to that. Up until a few years ago, I would have said, nothing to see here. And I know you talk about finding this balance of not overstating it, not understating it, not maximising or minimising, I think is the phrase you use. What would you say to people who do notice that kind of impulse to protect or defend their childhood and their parents?
0:13:53.87 → 0:14:05.33
Oh, yeah, right. Again, I know this one well. There's a lot of reasons why we want to steer clear of it. Sometimes we're afraid of what it is that we're going to find. It feels like it's going to be too overwhelming.
0:14:05.38 → 0:14:29.85
We don't want to go there. What's going to happen when I open up Pandora's box? We appreciate the relationships that we have with our family at this point. They're in an okay place, and the idea of going back in there and looking for something and exploring something might change the dynamics that we have today that we're happy with and feel like we can manage all right. Maybe other people have somebody deceased in their family.
0:14:29.94 → 0:15:22.66
And so the idea of exploring something and that person not being here to have conversation or for reconciliation, that can be a constraint. We hear people often say they did the best that they could with what they had, and there are tremendous narratives around that that will block us from going to that place. And sometimes we idealise what our childhood was. This was pretty good. We put ourselves on the I talk about the wound comparison in the book, where we sort of put ourselves on this spectrum where if somebody had it worse than we did, based on our own perspective and opinions about it, then we feel foolish or silly for, quote unquote, complaining about something when it was, overall a pretty good experience.
0:15:23.51 → 0:15:50.79
All of this part of this work is about holding multiple truths. I say it pretty early on in the book that this is not an act of throwing parents or caretakers or the adults in our lives under the bus. This isn't us going on a wild goose hunt. This is about being able to name and honour what our experiences are. And all of those things, all of those games that we can play with ourselves, the distractions, that's what they are.
0:15:50.83 → 0:16:08.56
They are distractions away from us, honouring our pain. It can be true that they did the best that they could with what they had. It can be true that their parents were way worse to them than they were to us. Right? I have endless stories of what it could sound like.
0:16:08.69 → 0:17:08.80
All of that can be true and it doesn't take away from what your experience was. And it's so important that we are able to honour what the experience was and put a period at the end of that sentence. And one of the questions that I ask in the book is what did you want most as a child and not get, well, I wanted to be prioritised more by my dad, but he was working so much and he was doing that because he was providing for the family. Well, that's really different than saying I want it to be a priority period to just hold there. Because the moment that we go into the explanation, even when the explanation is true, invalid, it moves us away from being able to honour our pain and begin to work with our pain and acknowledge it and witness it and grieve alongside of it.
0:17:08.90 → 0:18:11.38
And so absolutely I understand that turning towards this can be scary, can be overwhelming. Sometimes people are like, I don't want to go to therapy because I'm going to hate them, or the relationship is going to end, or I know that those are concerns for people. And we go at a pace that feels okay for the person, whether listening, reading, in therapy, because ultimately, at the end of the day, if we avoid being with our pain properly, our pain will find very clever ways of trying to bring us back to it. Yeah, that feels like a nice segue into this tendency that we have often subconsciously to gravitate towards people, situations, relationships that touch our wounds, that feel familiar, that recreate past patterns. Maybe not in a really obvious literal surface way, although sometimes why do we do that?
0:18:11.43 → 0:18:42.56
I think so many people at a conscious level go, I don't know why I keep doing the same thing when it's not in alignment with what I want. I want a healthy relationship with an available person and yet here I am, chasing after this person who is unsure about me and I'm trying to earn their attention and affection and prove myself and whatever else the pattern might be. Why is there such a magnetic pull to familiar pain? Yeah. Oh, I know.
0:18:42.61 → 0:19:28.41
Like I said, that irritation, that annoyance, that frustration with the self when we find ourselves right back at the thing that we said we wouldn't do, whether it's engaging in the conflict in the same way, to your point. Dating that emotionally unavailable person for the, umpteenth, time patterns, the unwanted patterns in our adult lives that we can't shake will point us to our origin pain. I want to ask the listener to take a moment to try to externalise pain for a moment. Like allow it to be a separate entity to exist outside of your body for a second. Maybe it looks a certain way to you, maybe it has a colour, a shape, whatever, but allow it to exist outside of your body for a second.
0:19:28.50 → 0:19:57.21
And I bet if your pain could talk this is what I think my pain sounded like. It was like, hey, I know that you would like to move on with life, and I know that you have goals for yourself, or who you want to date, or how you want to navigate this conflict differently, or the fact that you want to be able to set that boundary. I promise you that I am not trying to destroy your life. I promise you that I am not trying to ruin you or keep you stuck. I know that you want to get on with things.
0:19:57.28 → 0:20:31.64
I know that you want to have this new way of living, this desirable way of living, being in relationship, dating, et cetera. But if you just move on, if you just brute force your way through and try to change something, then you forget about me. And so I can't let you just abandon what the hurt or the harm has been. You can't just move on from me. That's why I keep bringing you back into the patterns, because that's the only way I can get you to pay attention to me.
0:20:32.33 → 0:21:06.13
And so if you could turn towards me, so that you could acknowledge me, just witness what we went through, so that we can just be in the grief of what that was, then I promise you I will loosen my grip. Then I promise that I will not have to keep bringing you back into the same patterns over and over and over again. But I promise that when I bring you into these patterns, it's just my way of trying to get you to pay attention to something that you haven't spent enough time with. Totally. I'm curious.
0:21:06.71 → 0:21:26.95
When is that an opportunity? And when is it prone to being retraumatizing or just a reenactment of old pain in a way that isn't productive or constructive? How do we know the difference? And how much of that is within our control versus circumstantial? Yeah, right.
0:21:27.10 → 0:22:33.31
I think part of it is about what the intention of it is, kind of going back into something that is painful. We don't have to remember all of the details, we don't have to necessarily even go back into a particular scenario to relive it. It's about honouring the pain, honouring the experience of not feeling good enough, of not feeling safe, of not feeling like it was okay for you to be authentic and still loved to the feeling and sensation of not being important enough to the people you wanted to be important to. The actual details are far less important than what it left you with. And to honour that you maybe did not feel safe, that you were not protected to honour that you did not feel good enough unless you were perfect, unless you were performing, unless you were pleasing, unless you were XYZ, whatever it is, that is what we're tending to.
0:22:33.46 → 0:23:26.16
And so, yeah, I think for folks who have trauma, complex trauma, doing this work alongside a trauma informed professional is incredibly encouraged. Because certainly this is not about just like going into reenactments to drum up some stuff and have it be super raw, but it is about getting intentional with witnessing the experiences in terms of the sensation, in terms of how it was internalised, in terms of what we were left with, because that is what is ruling our lives. Yeah. So in your book, you talk about these five origin wounds, and I don't know that we'll have time to go through each of them in turn, but they are worthiness. Belonging, safety, trust, I think you've got it all.
0:23:26.85 → 0:23:57.07
Maybe we could just start by talking through the worthiness wound, because I know that's where you start in the book, and I know that tends to be pretty universal to varying degrees and in different expressions, but I know that your take, and certainly my experience is that we all have some version of a worthiness wound. What does that look like? How can that manifest? And maybe what do we do with that once we realise that that lives within us? Yeah, right.
0:23:57.24 → 0:24:52.09
As I was writing the book and really working on this wound, I was struck by I really think that every single one of us rubs up against a worthiness wound at some point. And yes, as you said, some to a much more intense degree than others. But the worthiness wound is when you there's a lot of conditions around worthiness. So this idea that I am not good enough or valuable or deserving unless I am XYZ. So if I am perfect, if I am a pleaser, if I perform the way that you want me to, if I am the comic relief, if I get the straight A's, if I am a really strong athlete, that is the thing that gets me love, connection, attention, validation, praise, approval and so forth.
0:24:53.71 → 0:25:37.80
So oftentimes there is a condition there. So I usually say to the perfectionists, the pleasers, the performers out there, those are usually the folks who will have some version of this worthiness wound, present my worthiness wound. And I shared a little bit about that story of kind of flying under the radar, being this needless child feeling that there wasn't room for me to have feelings and not be okay. And one of the things that continued to contribute to that is my dad was phenomenal in so many ways, but one of the things that he did was if I behaved or acted out or said something that he didn't like that. He didn't agree with when I wasn't easy going.
0:25:38.49 → 0:26:27.96
What he would do as punishment was he would give me the silent treatment, sometimes for days or weeks on end. And so that really reminded me that when you're easygoing, when you don't have needs, when you're not difficult, then you get presence, love, connection, help support all of the things. But when you are difficult, then that's when it's taken from you. And I found myself in that space of that really reiterated the origin around that role that I had taken on as a kiddo. And it reminded me, yeah, don't speak out, don't express anything that's outside of the pretty little box because when you do, the thing that you want the most is withheld taken from you that there is a punishment that happens here.
0:26:28.33 → 0:26:58.21
And so, yeah, just again to encapsulate it, that worthiness wound comes when we grow up in an environment where we don't feel good enough, when we don't feel deserving, when we don't feel valuable. And sometimes it's the full stop. It doesn't matter what we do. And for other folks, it might be, unless you are perfect, unless you do what we require you to do. I can probably touch very quickly on each of the wounds just to at least high level give everyone a bit of a sense.
0:26:58.28 → 0:27:33.40
So the belonging wound is some people grow up in families where a family system will say something like, this is what we do in this family, this is what we believe, this is what we think. There's this emphasis as to be a part of us means this is what we do think, believe. And if you go against that, then you're on the outside. Dr. Gabar Mate talks about how when we're kids, when attachment is threatened, we will trade authenticity for it every time.
0:27:33.58 → 0:27:51.79
Makes a lot of sense. And authenticity and attachment are our lifelines, they're vital. But when we're kiddos, when we are really tiny, attachment is necessary. That is literally our survival. And so we will change who we are in order to fit in.
0:27:51.83 → 0:28:33.82
That's the first stop. Somewhere along the way, we might take a path of rebellion. So sometimes in those teenage years we're like, screw it, I believe this or I'm going to do the exact opposite of what a parent wants me to. But in those early, early years, we adapt to what the system requires of us so that we can quote, unquote, fit in. So often, if you felt like you were the black sheep, if you had differences that the family didn't understand or maybe shunned or rejected, those are oftentimes the experiences where a belonging wound might originate, the prioritisation wound, okay, this is when we didn't feel important enough in our family.
0:28:33.95 → 0:29:19.88
And so how might that manifest? Maybe a parent who is a workaholic, maybe there's a different type of addiction in the family system where that is the priority, a mental health challenge that takes up the space, the energy. You mentioned this earlier, a sibling, for example. I think you might have said mental health around that, but an illness of some sort where the attention and the priority is somewhere else, where it just takes that energy away from you and we can sit here and say, well, it makes good sense, or oh yeah, of course that needed to be the priority. But it doesn't change that you did not feel like you were important enough in that space.
0:29:20.06 → 0:29:57.41
I share a story in the prioritisation chapter about a client of mine who in the book I call Andre, and he has a single mom and he would talk about his mom with such love and adoration and respect. She would work multiple jobs, double shifts every day except for Sunday, where they would go to church together Sunday morning and then they would have brunch together afterwards. And he would sit here and he would say, I respect her. He could really rationalise how her working double shift was her way of prioritising him. He could find his way to that story.
0:29:57.58 → 0:30:41.62
But ultimately still what was at the core of it was that what he wanted most was to be a priority through time spent with her. And that was so hard for him to come to that space because he wanted to protect her, because he knew she was absolutely doing the best that she could. She was giving everything that she had. And it's scenarios like this that are incredibly heartbreaking because you can see how much love and respect and care that is there, but it doesn't change that a wound still exists. And I think that's an important reminder for the listener that wounds do not have to come from abusive, negligent, mal intended places.
0:30:41.76 → 0:31:33.35
Sometimes wounds are created because of the natural circumstances of life, and I think sometimes that is hard for us. It can be even harder when it's not so obvious to actually allow for and create space for there to be a wound there, when it isn't this blatant lack of respect or this blatant abuse that takes place. I was just going to ask, maybe you were going to sort of move to this is how does the prioritisation wound show up and shape us kind of behaviorally in the way that we relate to ourselves and others? Yeah, in a number of different ways. One of the ways might be that we, through patterns, will keep choosing people who do not prioritise us, where there are other things that are very important to them in their lives, where it doesn't need to be apples to apples.
0:31:33.43 → 0:32:03.41
Where if you grew up with someone with addiction in the family, that you necessarily partner with someone who is struggling with addiction. But you might choose someone who prioritises something else over you and that keeps bringing you back into the wound. You might be someone yourself who is a lot of times people with a prioritisation wound become over givers. They do everything to prioritise everyone else. To try to teach people, show them this is how I want to be prioritised.
0:32:04.63 → 0:32:36.21
What's the giggle for there? I relate to it. It's also been a discussion I've been having with the clients in my mastermind group. This tendency of the frantic over giving and deprioritizing ourselves prioritising others, but then this kind of bubbling resentment of what about me? And we have to look at the ways in which we participate in that dynamic and I think get really honest about not creating lots of space for ourselves.
0:32:36.31 → 0:33:08.50
Because that's the other side of the coin, right? When we've got this story that the loving thing to do is to neglect ourselves in favour of tending to others, then I think to the extent that other people don't reciprocate, we have the story of you don't care about me the way I care about you or as much as I care about you. So I think that whenever we notice those stories, it's a bit of a smoke signal for something deeper that we need to look at that's, right? Yeah, always a smoke signal. Right?
0:33:08.52 → 0:33:38.21
Because it just recreates. Why don't you care about me as much as I care about you? There's something familiar about that and that's in this book, the goal is what is familiar about what's happening when we have reactivity. That's a great indicator that there's an origin, you said it before. We're able to give advice that we can't take another indicator.
0:33:39.51 → 0:34:04.25
We say to our friends absolutely don't go back to your ex. If your ex is messaging, don't respond and then you're there responding yourself. It's not as easy when you're in the experience of it because that's your wounding, that's playing into the decision making rationally. We know the quote unquote right thing to do. We're able to give that advice, but we can't take it.
0:34:04.32 → 0:34:38.42
And so these are really good indicators that there is some irresolution around a particular wound that is showing up in that space. I think to your point about the prioritisation, it's like ultimately, of course, we want to be in relationships with people where there's reciprocity, where we do feel like we are important, that we matter, that we are valued. But you spoke to it so well, this tendency to actually wind up deprioritizing ourselves. So instead of coming to ourselves, first of what does it look like to actually prioritise me? We continue to outsource it.
0:34:38.47 → 0:34:56.33
If I give to these people, what I hope will happen is that they'll give to me. If I show you and model how great I am at prioritising you, then maybe you will be able to do that for me. And again, that's not a really good way to heal a wound.
0:34:58.59 → 0:35:44.30
That's a good way to just keep it going and keep it going and keep it going and to be able to go inwards and tend to that pain so that we don't have to keep finding these ways of reenactment, either through repetition or through opposition. That's really the goal here. And so in this origin healing practise of being able to identify what our wound or wounds are, number of people now at this point exactly. Have that one, have that one, have that one. It's like, yeah, we do have to find that appropriate way to be with this pain so that it doesn't have the same lock on us.
0:35:44.75 → 0:36:36.98
The trust wound unsurprising, where there's an experience of betrayal, deceit, lies. It might be something that happened to you or it might be something that you observed or witnessed. So obviously a really common one is if there was infidelity or an affair that took place in the family system, if there were family secrets that you were expected to keep, or if there was a family secret that was kept from you. Sometimes these are a bit more of the outrageous ones, but they still happen. Where maybe a family member gambles away an education fund or someone who takes out credit cards in your name as a child, and then kind of in the more day to day ones, where maybe there is a promise that is made over and over again that somebody doesn't actually follow through on.
0:36:37.16 → 0:37:19.31
And I'm not talking about, oh, a situation had to change. Of course we've got normal life stuff, but I'm talking about these commitments, these agreements, these promises that always fall through, that let us know that we can't trust the important people in our lives. And also one of the other ones is that we can sometimes hear, and usually this will come from an unresolved adult too, but someone might make sweeping generalisation statements. Never trust a man, never trust that there's some storyline that then gets imprinted in us and absorbed by us based on what the adults are telling us. And then the last one, of course, is the safety wound.
0:37:19.36 → 0:38:00.75
And when we're talking about the absence of safety, we are often talking about the presence of abuse. This is a really tender, raw chapter. I remind people to take very good care, of course, when we're reading it, but we have to name it and unfortunately, we have to talk about abuse when we are talking about the absence of safety. And so emotional, physical, sexual, psychological abuse, negligence, recklessness. But ultimately a safety origin wound is going to arise when you didn't feel like your well being was cared for, had concern for, was respected, honoured and protected by the adults in your life.
0:38:00.92 → 0:38:30.19
Yeah, thank you for that summary. I'm interested on the trust wound. Something that comes up for me like none of those kind of big dramatic headline ones, but certainly my memory of my family system was a lot of things being swept under the rug. Let's just collectively kind of pretend that things are fine. We'll sit down at the dinner table even though we know mom and dad aren't talking, and there's stuff going on and just kind of playing that game.
0:38:30.34 → 0:39:01.38
And I notice for myself that I have such a visceral response as an adult in my relationships to we're not talking about the things that are clearly going on here. I don't know if that's an expression of a trust wound or maybe something else, but that's certainly something for me. Yeah, right. I can't trust you to be able to have the hard conversation. It's not necessarily a family secret, but it kind of hangs out in that space, the unspoken hidden thing that is right here in front of us.
0:39:01.48 → 0:39:15.61
Right, exactly. The pretending. And I can't trust the people here to not pretend, to not hide. Can we just say the thing, bring the elephant into the room and let's expose them? Right.
0:39:15.65 → 0:39:47.11
It's like that's, that craving, because we don't have to go deep into it. But what did pretending and hiding lead to? Yeah, I think for me, it was probably even as a very young child. It's like, if I know what's going on, then I can shift into my fixer role and my peacekeeper role and I can go about tending to everyone. And I would go to my mum, then I'd go to my sister and I'd counsel and I'd try and kind of bring everyone back.
0:39:47.18 → 0:40:06.22
But if we weren't talking about it, I don't have enough information to do my job in the system. Which sounds crazy when we're talking about a six year old, but I think that was the thing. No, it doesn't. Right. You see how clever I mean, there's a lot of layers to what you just said.
0:40:06.35 → 0:40:36.08
I needed you to not hide and pretend so I could go into appointed manager. Right. We can see how much is caught and stuck in there. But to your point is that you wanted the adults to lead, you wanted the adults to take charge. You didn't want to be in that role, you did it because you had to.
0:40:36.18 → 0:41:01.91
But ultimately, what I hear you saying is that I needed the adults to be able to say what needed to be said and be responsible for what they needed to be responsible for, so that you didn't need to step into that role. And can I trust the people in my life now to do that? Or do I need to be hyper vigilant, constantly looking, scanning, trying to figure out what's brushed under the rug right? Now. Did I see it?
0:41:01.92 → 0:41:26.50
Did I not see it? What's being said, what's not being said, what's being pretended, what's not being pretended, what's being hidden, what's not being hidden without trusting that it requires you to be in a hypervigilant vigilant space of constantly scanning your environment. Can I trust you to be able to have the hard conversation with me? Can I trust you to be able to bring uncomfortable things forward? Can I trust you to be honest?
0:41:26.63 → 0:41:33.75
Whatever it is, fill in the blank. Right? Yeah. But that's how it can continue to show up present day. Yeah, absolutely.
0:41:33.87 → 0:42:23.27
It's like I have to be on the front foot and get ahead of it, because I can't trust that as and when things arise, they'll be spoken about openly and navigated in a mature way. I feel like it's my responsibility to spot the problem, name the problem, take courage of working through the problem and ultimately getting us to a resolution. Because I've taken that on as my role and I don't trust that that will happen in the absence of my leadership or my stewardship. And I think that in adult relationships, that can lead us to a lot of burnout and resentment, this sense of like, everything's my responsibility. And yet again, we see this theme of because I'm making everything my responsibility, and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
0:42:23.43 → 0:42:53.82
It's like if I don't ever create space for someone to show up, or if I don't voice the need and voice the fear and explain it, I just go and do the thing, preempting that if I don't do it, no one will. We don't really create space for change. Yeah. And that's what I get into into the third part of the book. Because it's only so much to be able to identify our wounds and witness and grieve and be in the emotional component of this.
0:42:53.84 → 0:43:13.65
That's really important for us to move some of our pain. But then it's like, how do wounds get in the way when we're talking about healthy communication, navigating conflict. Well, navigating boundaries properly. Right. Because exactly.
0:43:13.74 → 0:43:56.35
To your point, if I don't shift anything about this, then I remain in this hyper vigilant space. I do not ever let someone bring something forward. I can't have a trusting relationship, whether it's with partner, friendship, whomever. It's like all of these things that actually block what I imagine that you or someone in a position like this would feel. And so to be able to see our part in blocking what it is that we're looking for and craving for, but instead of it being shame, blame, guilt, embarrassment, we're actually able to step into the compassion, the grace, the curiosity of OOH.
0:43:56.48 → 0:44:13.14
Yeah. My behaviours serve something. They're here for a reason. And when I can get curious about that, then I can make a shift. I remember I was in a I know you just had I imagine maybe his episode will come out before mine.
0:44:13.17 → 0:44:42.34
But you spoke to my husband earlier and I remember early on in our dating, there was a conflict that we got into. I have no idea what it was about, but what I do remember is that I was very committed to proving my point. I was very committed to being right and I was going in on it and he's like, okay, I got it. I understand. And I kept my favourite part about this is he told this story as well.
0:44:42.39 → 0:44:51.66
So I'm so interested to that's so funny, your versions of it. Okay, please. Let's see.
0:44:53.79 → 0:45:06.04
Yeah, you put me on notice and lol because my version clearly is going to be right. Naturally. Of course, naturally. So I keep going. He's like, I got it, I understand.
0:45:06.14 → 0:45:20.41
And I'm doubling down. I'm tripling down. I can't stop. And I have this out of body moment experience where I'm almost, like, looking in on myself, just continuing to go, and I'm like, stop. Like, enough.
0:45:20.50 → 0:45:37.31
This is not this is not attractive. Like, this is not good. And I remember once I finally stopped, there was a lot of shame and embarrassment that came in, if I'm being really honest. It was early on before we were even engaged. This behaviour is really unbecoming.
0:45:37.36 → 0:46:13.31
Like, I don't even know if this person is going to want to be with me. And certainly if I were to continue behaving this way, I don't think that he would want to be with me. But instead of just staying in the shame, I got really curious about what needing to be right served, what is that all about? And we'll link to what people already have heard and understood about my story. I already shared that I grew up in an environment where there was a lot of psychological manipulation, gaslighting and yeah, changing of stories.
0:46:13.47 → 0:47:02.32
And part of my survival, part of my safety, was that if I'm right, if I can prove my point, then I am safe. And if I am not right, then I am unsafe. And the moment that clicked in for me, there was so much softness, so much gentleness for myself, because I could see how this part of me needed to be right as a form of creating some type of protection and safety for myself. What I needed to do, however, was I needed the wise, adult, mature Vienna to actually step into her driver's seat, as opposed to the unhealed, unresolved, pained little girl who was like, this is not a safe environment. You have got to have it right.
0:47:02.37 → 0:47:24.23
You have got to prove your point. Otherwise it's not okay for you. And so to be able to step into this space of who is in front of me, it required some healing around that safety origin wound for me, but eventually that discernment of, okay, where am I now? What do I know to be true? Who am I with right now?
0:47:24.35 → 0:47:47.59
And how can I step away from the pain driving this behaviour versus my healing driving this behaviour? And easier said than done. Lots of layers and complexity to this, but I think that this is I hope that that offers something of just because I'm doing something that I feel ashamed of. Just because I'm doing something that I'm like. OOH.
0:47:47.61 → 0:48:12.33
I feel very embarrassed about this part of me when we can shift away from just existing in the shame and embarrassment and move towards the curiosity of what this is serving. Why is this here? What is this trying to protect me from? That's where the gifts are. And so, yeah, I would invite people to think about the things that they don't like about themselves, the things that they do that they're like, oh, this is not great.
0:48:12.40 → 0:48:33.83
I hate this. I wish I'd stopped doing this, and to actually become more curious about them, to see what it is that that behaviour might be attempting to protect. Yeah, totally. Beautifully said. The question that I know Dick Schwartz always asks around our parts, it's like, what is that part afraid would happen if it didn't do the thing?
0:48:34.00 → 0:49:02.22
In your case, what is it afraid would happen if I wasn't right or I didn't make sure that everyone was in agreement that I'm right? And we can get to the heart of, like, what's this really about? For me? Why does this feel so important and big and life or death? But, yeah, it's big work and it's messy work, but it's very rewarding and liberating work when we can have the courage to do it.
0:49:05.15 → 0:49:44.50
I'm glad that you said liberating. That's part of the subtitle of the book, how breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate the Way We Live in Love and very intentional about what the titles were. And that's right. I think in this work, there is an incredible liberation that takes place and that doing this work does change our relationships and our lives. My hope, my goal is that there is a much greater internal peace that actually takes place to live the life that you want, to have the relationships that you want.
0:49:44.55 → 0:50:07.52
Beautiful. Yes, of course. I think that's probably most people's goal, but this sense of internal peace, so profound, so powerful, so important. And when we begin to do this work, I think that leads us to that, to a sense of internal peace. Beautiful.
0:50:07.97 → 0:50:23.59
Vienna, thank you so much. This has been such a lovely conversation. If people want to go deeper with you and your work, where should they find you? Yeah, you can find me on Instagram. At @mindfulmft as in marriagefamilytherapy.
0:50:23.77 → 0:50:43.16
Viennaferon.com, NewYorkcouplescounseling.com. But almost all of my offerings are always in the bio of Instagram. But of course, the book, you can find that anywhere that books are sold. There's a lot of beautiful work there. And I'm always posting new offerings that we have going on.
0:50:43.95 → 0:51:00.89
Beautiful. And, yes, I echo all of that and certainly go out and buy the book and read the book or listen to the book. It is really profound and beautiful. And certainly, if you've enjoyed this conversation, you will love, love the origins of you. Thank you so much.
0:51:01.09 → 0:51:22.29
Thank you. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at Stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much.
0:51:22.41 → 0:51:25.48
Thanks again for being here, and I hope to see you again soon.
"How to enjoy being single when I really want a relationship?"
When you really want a relationship, enjoying being single can be something incredibly challenging. In today's Q&A style episode, I’m diving into how to enjoy being single when all you really want is a relationship.
When you really want a relationship, enjoying being single can be something incredibly challenging. In today's Q&A style episode, I’m diving into how to enjoy being single when all you really want is a relationship.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Owning your desire for a loving, healthy relationship
Being grateful in the present
What it means to actually enjoy your life being single
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Use the code PHOENIX for $150 off the Higher Love Course for a limited time only.
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
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Episode Transcript
0:00:00.41 --> 0:00:40.45
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. You hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's episode is a Q and A episode and I am answering the question of how can I enjoy being single when, if I'm being honest, I really wish I was in a relationship.
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So I know a lot of people are in this situation of being single and deep down actually just wanting a relationship and probably coming up against a lot of advice on social media and elsewhere, telling them to enjoy being single and really savour in that experience and make the most of it. And you should be really happy that you're single. And while I think that advice is coming from a well intentioned place, sometimes it can be frustrating when that's just not how we're feeling and we can almost feel like we are deficient or we can feel some shame for our true desire, which is to be in a relationship. So I'm going to be talking through that and giving some reframes and perspective shifts and permission slips that will hopefully help you to navigate this period of your life, this season of your life, with a little more self. Compassion and in a way that allows you to have both.
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To own your desire to be in relationship while also enjoying your life as it is today. So that's what we're going to be talking about in today's episode. Before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements I wanted to share the featured review for today, which I've actually taken from Spotify. You might have heard me say recently, Spotify now lets you leave little comments under Episodes. And so to try and be fair to the people who are Spotify listeners rather than Apple, who haven't historically been able to leave reviews, I'm going to start drawing from the Spotify comments in addition to the Apple podcast.
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Reviews in the review of the week So today's is I discovered your podcast by chance while going through the hardest time in my life and I can't express the profound impact it's made. You taught me the wise and gave me hope for the future that I couldn't see. Thank you so much. That is such a touching and humbling review and I'm so, so grateful for you and I'm grateful that you found me and that you were able to find your way back to hope. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierig.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my Master classes.
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The other quick announcement that I wanted to share in keeping with the theme of today's episode, which is around being single and wanting to be in a relationship. My Higher Love Course, which is a breakup course that I created last year, is currently available for $150 off. So if you use the discount code Phoenix you can save $150 on the price of that course. It's a fully self study course where you get access to the full thing upon sign up and you can take it at your own pace. The reason that I'm mentioning that today is because in addition to helping you process a breakup, which the first half of the course is around, it also really allows you to embrace not only your life as a newfound single person, but to really own your desires and cultivate a level of clarity and confidence around your desires for future partnership in a way that feels really empowering rather than desperate or needy or any other negative label we might put on those things.
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So if you're someone who has been through a breakup recently and you are looking for some support or maybe it's not all that recent, but you think there's still some processing to do and some grieving to do around a previous relationship and you're looking to really anchor into greater self worth for the future. My higher love course is a really great option I've had. I think upwards of 300 students go through that course and it always gets really beautiful feedback. So that might be something to cheque out and I will link that in the show notes. Okay, so let's talk about this.
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How can I enjoy being single when I actually really just want to be in a relationship? So without knowing anything about the person who asked this question, I'm going to frame the discussion in terms of anxious attachment because I think that most people who have this experience probably will fall closer to that end of the spectrum in terms of their attachment patterns. I know that makes up a bulk of my listeners in any event. So I think that we have to start by just owning what we desire. And I alluded to this in the introduction.
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I think that we can feel almost pathetic. We can be really judgmental of ourselves for the fact that we want to be in a relationship and I think that that isn't helpful. As I always say, if you're feeling some sort of primary emotion like sadness or longing or grief or whatever else, anxiety even and rather than having compassion for that and seeking to understand it, we just put some judgement over the top and we criticise ourselves and make ourselves wrong for the way we're feeling. We are invariably making it worse. We are just adding fuel to the fire.
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We are adding more tension to a system that is already under stress. So it's really the opposite of what we need is to make ourselves wrong for a desire and I would say particularly for a desire that is as beautiful and pure as wanting to be in a healthy, loving relationship. I think that that is something that we should absolutely own and be proud of and be confident in. I don't think that that makes us desperate or needy or pathetic or any other thing that we might put on that I think we can just throw that kind of thinking in the bin. So my big permission slip for you at the outset of this episode and if you are someone who struggles with this, is you don't need to pretend not to want a relationship in order to enjoy being single.
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And indeed you are absolutely encouraged to own that desire, if that is your heart's desire to be in a relationship. Now, with that being said and holding that in one hand, can we find a way to hold in the other hand, enjoyment of life in whatever season you're in rather than making those things an either or? I can't enjoy being single because I want to be in a relationship. I think that this kind of thinking, this once I am there, then I can be happy. Once this other thing happens, this very conditional approach to our joy and contentedness and peace and satisfaction in life and it's really, really easy to get stuck in that because we can find ourselves, without even realising it, moving the goalposts on ourselves forever and ever and ever.
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It is this carrot dangling thing of once X-Y-Z thing happens, then I will be happy. Once I make this change about myself, then I will love myself, then I will accept myself. That is a real slippery slope and it's not actually conducive to happiness and fulfilment. Anyone will tell you, anyone who works in this space, teaches in this space, will tell you that the trick is to be grateful in the present for what you have while knowing what it is that you desire and being able to hold both of those things at the one time. So saying I really want to be in a relationship, that is my heart's desire and I'm not going to sit at home and shrink or not enjoy my life in anticipation of that thing or unless and until I have this thing.
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Because that is really placing way too much responsibility on a relationship to create our happiness or to be the sole source of our happiness and fulfilment and enjoyment of life. And what I would say to you is, and I talk about this in my higher love course, the calibre of relationship that you are going to attract as someone who has already created this beautiful, big, full, satisfying life, you are going to attract a really different calibre of person and relationship from that place, rather than the place of lack and emptiness. And I need some person to make me feel happy, to make me feel worthy, to make me feel pleasure and satisfaction and enjoyment. So I think that the more we can cultivate that as our baseline, as our starting point and really commit to building this very beautiful life with many pillars to it. Rather than just feeling the immense lack that can come with wanting to be in a relationship but not being in one, the more we focus on what we don't have that can really drag us down and probably lead us to indulge or engage in connections and relationships that
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aren't actually meeting.
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The bar that we would like to set for ourselves because we are coming from this place of anything is better than nothing that tends not to lead to the greatest relationship. So I think that the more we can enjoy our lives as single people, what we're really trying to do there is enjoy our own company and enjoy our work and enjoy what we spend our time doing and enjoy our friendships and really build out beautiful community. All of these things mean that we have many pillars to our lives and the relationship just becomes this beautiful addition to that landscape rather than the only thing propping up our lives and making us feel worthy and okay and giving us a sense of meaning where otherwise we would be plunged into darkness. That is an over indexing on a relationship and expecting it to solve all of your problems. So I think when people talk about can you enjoy life as a single person?
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It's not to say make the most of it, go out and sleep with a bunch of people because you can or you have to enjoy the process of casual dating. I don't think that that's what people mean. And if they do mean that, then if that doesn't resonate with you, again, you can chuck that in the bin. You don't have to take that on. And if it were me, that certainly wouldn't resonate with me because that's just not who I am.
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So I think that rather than hearing that advice around being single as meaning you have to enjoy dating lots of people or having those casual interactions, it's more can I see this season of my life as an opportunity. To really upgrade, to maybe do work on my own inner world, on my parts, on my woundedness and really all of that energy and attention that I'm accustomed to devoting to other people and focusing on them. Can I? Focus some of that back on me and use that as a way to nurture my relationship with myself and upgrade that relationship so that I'm ready to meet someone from a really grounded, secure, self respecting place in my next relationship. And can I trust that that will pay such dividends when the time comes rather than waiting and feeding stories of low self worth and of shame and of everything else and expecting that to yield a relationship that's going to solve all of my problems?
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I hate to be the one to tell you, but that almost invariably doesn't work. And so the more that we can use those transitional periods as opportunities to spring clean so to speak, that is a beautiful, beautiful time and it is a beautiful opportunity and as I said tends to pay huge dividends in terms of what we then make ourselves available for in another relationship. And even as I say that, I'm reminded to make the point that it's not like you are doing all of those things for someone else, you are doing them for yourself first and foremost. And that is an important reminder for anxiously attached people who tend to orient everything as being about someone else, to attract a partner or to make someone else happy or to get someone back or any other kind of agenda. It always tends to be other focused.
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And so as much as possible use this period of time where you don't have an other to orbit around as is your default to really tend to that relationship with yourself because that is your work for all anxiously attached people. That is your work is to build up a relationship with self that feels nourishing and self sustaining and allows a level of independence that you can then go to relationship from a place of choice rather than need and desperation and unsafety needing the relationship to make all of those fears go away. So I hope that that has given you a bit of a paradigm shift on how to relate to being single and also given you, as I said, a permission slip to want to be in a relationship because there is absolutely nothing wrong or shameful about holding that desire. But I suppose the takeaway being can you trust that this season is a beautiful opportunity to prepare for that and to really lay the foundations for the next relationship to be a really nourishing one and a really healthy one. And that the healthier you are going into that the more secure you
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are, the clearer you are, then that is going to be a really, really beautiful next relationship.
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So the work that you do in preparing yourself for that is certainly not going to be wasted. If you've enjoyed this episode, as always, super grateful. If you can leave a rating or a review, make sure you hit subscribe and follow the show. No matter where you're listening. Share it with the people in your life, share it on social media.
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All of that good stuff is hugely helpful in continuing to get the word out. Otherwise, I look forward to seeing you again soon. Thanks guys. Take care. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment.
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If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
5 Communication Mistakes You're Making (& What to do instead)
In today's episode, I’m sharing five communication and conflict mistakes that I often see people making in relationships and what you can do instead to bridge a positive connection with your partner.
In today's episode, I’m sharing five communication and conflict mistakes that I often see people making in relationships and what you can do instead to bridge a positive connection with your partner.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Why we shouldn’t avoid the hard conversations
What happens when we suppress our emotions
How to express your desires with your partner
Why we shouldn’t expect our partners to be mind readers
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
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You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. You welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm going to be sharing five communication and conflict mistakes that I often see people making in relationships and what you can do instead in order to cultivate greater understanding, mutual respect, and ultimately to be able to have conflict in a way that feels not only not scary, but actually positive, actually a bridge to connection and an effective way to cultivate greater understanding of one another and feel more connected rather than feeling like conflict. Is a one way ticket to really painful ruptures and disconnection and misunderstanding, which I think is certainly the case, or at least the starting point for a lot of us.
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So I'm going to be sharing, as I said, some of the things that I think a lot of us do, and this will not exclusively be true for people who tend towards insecure attachment patterns. I think even if you are broadly secure in your attachment, you might have had less than ideal modelling around communication and conflict in your family system. But more often than not, I think that people who are either anxious or avoidant in their attachment strategies tend to be somewhat conflict averse and that can lead to a starting point of being really self protective when it comes to conflict. And so as soon as we're in that self protective mode straight off the bat, then obviously our strategies are going to be infused with that energy of self protection and it's really hard to connect from that place. So I am going to be talking about all of that and more.
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Before I do, I just wanted to share the featured review for today, which is thanks for all you do, Stephanie. I've recommended On Attachment to all of my friends. This podcast has helped me own responsibility for my attachment style and actions while helping me bring compassion and understanding. It's been incredibly grounding to hear about the thousands of people just like me that Stephanie's helped. This podcast has made me feel less alone at a time when I felt so trapped in old thought patterns and anxieties.
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Thank you, Stephanie, for your honesty, kindness and hopefulness. For the first time, I'm starting to feel like a healthy relationship is a possibility for me. Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I'm so glad that that's been your experience and I couldn't agree more that the experience of feeling like we are not alone and that reassurance of realising that other people are going through a very similar thing to us makes us feel so much more optimistic about there being a path forward. So I'm glad that you found that in the podcast.
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If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes as a way to say thank you. Okay, so let's dive into this conversation around communication, mistakes that you might be making in your relationship and what to do instead. Now, this will apply somewhat to non romantic relationships, although, as always, this being a relationship focused podcast, I will frame it in that way. But just a note, if you're not currently in a relationship, there are certainly principles here that you can apply to non romantic relationships, whether that's with family, friends or colleagues or anyone else. So the first tip I want to give you here is don't avoid the hard conversations.
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As I said in the introduction, I think that a lot of us, particularly if you are either more anxious or more avoidant, have a level of conflict aversion. And we can really avoid those hard conversations until we're at a boiling point, until the conversations sort of force themselves on us because we've put ourselves through so much stress by trying to avoid it or sidestep it or bypass it or tiptoe around it, and it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger inside us until it all comes out. So I think that if you are someone who really does struggle to have hard conversations, this is a really important thing to reprogram in yourself and it is a skill that we can learn. I think it can be a really vicious downward spiral. Because if you haven't got a lot of experience in having hard conversations in a safe and healthy way, then every time you do have these big conversations, if you're not having them in a way that sets you up.
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For success. Then you're probably going to have these big, awful fights or attack, defend, or you say something, but you say it in a bit of a demanding way and then someone shuts down. And what does that do? That reinforces to your system hard conversations are unsafe, they threaten the relationship, they lead to people abandoning me or attacking me or whatever other story you might have. That might not just be a made up story, it might be based on your experience.
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But I think it's really important, if that's the case, to recognise, okay, how am I contributing to the perpetuation of that experience and of that story that I have? So, noticing that as much as avoiding the hard conversations feels like it's something that we're doing from a place of keeping ourselves safe, if we think that the hard conversations are not safe, then of course we're going to want to avoid them. But it really costs us a lot because, as I've said before, usually when we try and avoid those conversations, this is more for my anxious folk, we suppress our needs, we suppress our concerns, but it's like the less we talk about them, the more we think about them. I've said this to my partner before that if we're not talking about something that we both know is going on and it feels like an elephant in the room, it's deafeningly loud to me inside. And the more that we avoid it, the louder it is for me.
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It takes up so much space inside of me to avoid it. And so if that's true for you as well, just consider, am I really achieving anything by trying to avoid these conversations? Because if you're anything like me, it probably just comes out in a more distressed and escalated way somewhere down the track as a result of trying to suppress it. So one of the best things that you can do, and if you take nothing else away from today's episode than this, please learn to have the hard conversations and trust that the earlier you have them, the less hard they will be. And the more often that you have them, the less hard they will be, because they just don't come with the same energy of pent up, stressed, overwhelmed.
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I've spent three weeks building up the stories around this and making a lot of meaning and interpreting everything you say and do and don't say and don't do through the lens of this story. I've been telling myself the more we can fast track that and nip it in the bud, have the conversations when something first arises, we're much better off because we're going to be able to cheque those stories, connect, get our needs met, share what's bothering us and just air the grievances or whatever else is on our heart and on our mind that it's pretty rare, that just avoiding something and letting it grow and fester is the path forward. So that's the first mistake. Try not to keep avoiding the hard conversations. As I've said many times before, whatever scary truth you think might be revealed in the conversations you're avoiding, if it already exists in your relationship, it already exists in your relationship, the conversation is just the thing that's going to reveal it, right?
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So I think we have to be courageous and have those conversations and trust that we will be all the stronger for it. Okay, the next communication and conflict mistake that I see a lot and again have experienced myself, as with most of the things I talk about on this podcast, is fighting about fighting. So what do I mean by this? Have you ever been in an argument with someone and it starts as an argument about a situation or a set of circumstances or what you're feeling or needing or whatever it might be, but very soon you start fighting about the way you're fighting. So it's things like, are you going to say something?
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Or I can't believe you're just sitting there, or Why are you ignoring me? Or don't speak to me like that. Or whatever it is but it becomes less about substance and more about form. So we start attacking each other on the way that we are talking rather than actually engaging with the substance of what we were meaning to talk about, what was bothering us. And it should be obvious that this is completely ineffective.
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When you notice that happening, then just know that the horse is bolted, the conversation is a dead end and you are much better off to just take a break, take a time out, call it for what it is, say look, we're clearly not getting anywhere, let's regroup in an hour, or whatever it might be. But don't just keep following that rabbit hole of attacking and defending not even the substance of what was bothering you, but actually just fighting about the way that you are fighting. This is just so common. And if it's not something you've been aware of prior to now, I promise you, now you'll notice it and you'll realise just how common it is to nitpick at each other about the way that we are communicating. And really when we're doing that, as always, we can go, okay, what's behind my complaint or my criticism?
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What's the unmet need? And if you're getting angry at someone for not saying something as quickly as you would like, or for getting defensive or whatever it might be, it's like what do I actually need here? And try and voice that say I know that you're just processing, but it's really hard for me when you go quiet for ten minutes or whatever it might be. Right? But share the vulnerability that is within you rather than armoring up and attacking because that will almost always make it worse.
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So that leads me nicely into my third communication mistake, which is criticising rather than voicing desires. So a really, really helpful and easy rule of thumb is instead of criticising your partner, express what the desire is underneath your criticism or your complaint. So if you're frequently criticising your partner for whatever it might be, you never are affectionate with me, or you're always on your phone or you never let me know when you're running late or whatever. Right? Think of all of the things that we can be critical about, whether we voice them or not.
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But with a little bit of interrogation and really not much, because oftentimes the desires sit pretty close to the surface, with a little bit of interrogation, you'll see that there is a desire underneath that. So as I said, we tend to armour up and lead with our sword. We attack someone because that feels less vulnerable than sharing. When you're on your phone, when I'm talking to you, I feel really unimportant to you and that scares me. It scares me to not feel like you care about what I have to say, even if it's just telling you boring stuff about my day.
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It would mean so much to me to have that time protected and connected for us to sit together without our phones, is that something that you'd be open to doing? Can you see how that is so much more likely to be received in a way that invites engagement and reflection and response rather than telling someone, why do I even bother being in a relationship with you? Because you're always on your phone. I may as well just live here by myself. That's how disengaged you are, right?
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When we go with that, it's like, yeah, I'm keeping myself safe somehow by leading with that level of aggression and attack. And it's not to excuse or explain away someone's behaviour that you might be unhappy with, but it is to take responsibility for the ways in which our response to that behaviour might be entrenching us in painful dynamics rather than forging a path out of those dynamics and towards greater connection. So think about it. What is the desire underneath my complaint or my criticism? And can I be brave enough to show my heart and voice that?
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And even if my partner can't meet me in it or doesn't meet me in it, I am still so much better off sharing that honesty and that vulnerability from a place of integrity and open heartedness than if I join them in some sort of negativity and criticism and whatever else might be the dynamic of the relationship. You don't win by joining them in the trenches in that. So take the high road without being high and mighty about it and voice the desires that sit underneath your criticisms and see what happens. You might be surprised. Okay, the next communication and conflict mistake that I see a lot is schoolkeeping and kitchen sinking.
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So what do these terms mean? Schoolkeeping should be obvious enough. It's when we go, well, why should I have to do this when you haven't done that? We can do this in lots of different settings. Maybe it'll be I've called you the last three times that we've met up for a date and you haven't called me since.
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This time we're really keeping tally on inputs to the relationship, on effort, on who does what and when and all of that. And really, apart from the fact that that's exhausting to be in that mode of scrutinising and score keeping our relationship, it really is just an indicator that we feel a sense of imbalance and maybe we don't feel valued for our contribution and so we feel the need to keep jumping up and down and making a point of it. I think, relatedly, we can sort of gatekeep our love from this place. We can become very protective and feel like to the extent that there's an imbalance in contributions or in inputs, we don't want to be loving because we don't want to skew it further and feel like we're going to send that imbalance to further extremes. So if we do feel like we are the one who usually initiates contact or plans dates or does more stuff around the house, whatever it might be, we start getting really defensive of our contribution and contributing less or becoming very resentful about it because we are so acutely aware of this perceived imbalance and all
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of the stories that come with it.
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So we usually are doing a lot of meaning making when we're in this score keeping mindset, we're making it mean that someone doesn't care about us or that they're entitled or that they take us for granted or that they're lazy or they don't respect us, right? There's a lot of pretty significant stories that come with that that can be really harmful. So when you notice that score keeping mindset in your relationship, the first thing that you should be doing is getting really curious around what's going on with you. What are the unmet needs that are leading me to use this strategy of scorekeeping? Whether it's just me huffing and puffing and internally scorekeeping and harbouring that resentment or whether I'm waving that in front of my partner and trying to get them to see what is the underlying need.
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And can I ask that? Can I be really clear around my communication rather than just spinning around in the resentment and the kind of victim mindset? Because I think a lot of us can go there when we feel hurt or unsupported but again, it usually doesn't help us to get what we really desire. The other part to this one that I mentioned was kitchen sinking. So this is not exactly related but it's this tendency to raise one issue and then raise 234-5678 other issues when we have a conversation with our partner.
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So we might start a conversation about one thing and then our partner might get defensive and then we might pile on another one and another one and another one. So it's you didn't take the rubbish out last night and you didn't do this and you didn't do that and you were late home last Tuesday and you never even put in effort anymore and I can't remember the last time you cooked dinner for me and right. Again, this is kind of the flip side of the suppression of our needs is that we say nothing and then when we finally get the opportunity, it's like we finally have our moment. We have the microphone, we have centre stage and we just come at someone with this barrage of things that we've been suppressing and tell them all of the ways, seemingly unrelated, that they have been inadequate or that they've been messing up or that they've missed the mark or not meeting our needs or expectations. And I think this is particularly common among anxiously attached people.
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Again, never any judgement when I call this out because I am guilty of it. But it's this thing of I've been suppressing my needs because I don't want to be too needy, too burdensome. I don't want to be a nag, I don't want to be critical, but I still have all of these grievances that I'm very aware of. And so when I finally get the opportunity, if we're having an argument or I do feel like that window is there for me to say these things, I can feel a sense of scarcity around it. I don't want to keep it to one issue because what if I don't get another opportunity for another month or something to share all of these other things that have been bothering me?
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So I just have to ram them all in there now and let you know all of the things that you've been doing wrong. Now that I have this opportunity and now that I have your attention and I feel like this is my moment, needless to say that this is not a very effective strategy, particularly if you have a more avoidant partner, they're going to feel really very quickly overwhelmed and demoralised by that kind of communication style. This sense of you're just hitting me with a tidal wave, of all of the ways in which I am inadequate and all of the ways in which I am failing you as a partner because you are so unhappy with me. Now, you might see it differently, but that is, I guarantee you, how they will see it and experience it and we can kind of understand that if we can step outside of our own stuff and look at that situation a little more objectively. Just being hit with this long list of complaints about all the ways in which you aren't stacking up or you aren't fulfilling your partner's needs, can feel really attacking and in.
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Most people will trigger defensiveness. So as much as possible, try to keep your conversations to one issue rather than leading with this long list of things and capitalising on the opportunity and trying to air every single grievance and resolve every single issue and just keep the conversation going for hours and hours because you feel like that is your one window of opportunity. The fifth and final communication mistake that I wanted to share is stop expecting your partner to read your mind. Now, I know that this is not romantic. I know that we all wish that our partner was a mind reader and that we wouldn't have to tell them what we need and tell them how we would like our needs to be met and tell them how we're feeling and tell them what might be bothering us or whatever other thing might be on your mind.
0:19:45.83 → 0:20:39.17
And feeling heavy and taking up a lot of space. But the more we have that expectation, which is just not realistic, the more we then again make meaning out of the fact that our partner hasn't been able to read our mind and we get really upset and we probably start engaging in some of those protest behaviours to indirectly get their attention. Maybe we get a bit quiet and withdrawn or sulky or short tempered and try and elicit that what's wrong? Kind of response in our partner so that we then get the space to share because we don't feel comfortable expressing it. So I know that this can be really hard and I know that, as I said, in an ideal world, our partners would be mind readers and we would never have to step into the vulnerability of sharing and asking for things and being direct and being open because it is vulnerable, right?
0:20:39.21 → 0:21:22.11
It opens us up to rejection. It opens us up to the possibility that our partner cannot or doesn't want to be there or support us or meet our needs or that they just might not respond in the exact way that we would like them to. It's vulnerable, it's edgy, it's scary, but it's also just part and parcel of being in a healthy relationship is being direct and being communicative. And the more that we play these games of pretending to be low maintenance or not asking for things or shapeshifting or trying to not have needs, I mean, you tell me, how is that working out for you? Because I know that when I've tried that, it hasn't worked terribly well.
0:21:22.28 → 0:21:51.16
It just leads me to feel more anxious and stressed. And as I said earlier, the less you talk about it, the more you think about it. And it just takes up a lot of space and really occupies a lot of real estate in your mind and in your emotional body. It's a heavy burden to carry. So as much as it's not the most romantic or sexy thing in the world to have to spell it out for our partners, try and believe that they care and that they really want to be able to support you.
0:21:51.18 → 0:22:40.07
But you might just have to be a little more of an active participant in that process, rather than expecting it all to happen magically. Okay, so that was five communication and conflict mistakes. I hope that that has been interesting and helpful for you. As I said, I know a lot of people really struggle with this and it's a very commonly requested podcast topic to do stuff around conflict, so I might have to do some more on this again soon. But I hope that that's given you at least a starting point of things to think about, of ways that we can go wrong and what you can do instead to create conflict that's not only not excruciatingly painful and stressful, but actually helps you to feel more connected and really understand each other's needs and feel closer as a result.
0:22:40.24 → 0:23:06.64
Because it is possible. As much as that might feel totally alien to you if it's not been your experience, I guarantee you it is possible and it's a skill that you can learn. As always, if you've enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a five star review, a rating. You can leave a little comment on Spotify underneath the episode, share it with the people in your life. All of those good things really help so much in getting the word out, but otherwise, I look forward to seeing you again soon.
0:23:06.74 → 0:23:27.93
Thanks guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much.
0:23:28.05 → 0:23:30.62
Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
Is “once a cheater, always a cheater” true?
Cheating within relationships can cause so much pain, grief and sensitivity around betray and infidelity. In today's Q&A style episode, I’m sharing my thoughts on if people can really change if they’ve cheated in the past and advice for people in the situation with concerns that their partner may not stay faithful.
Cheating within relationships can cause so much pain, grief and sensitivity around betray and infidelity. In today's Q&A style episode, I’m sharing my thoughts on if people can really change if they’ve cheated in the past and advice for people in the situation with concerns that their partner may not stay faithful.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Learning from mistakes
The messy feelings that lead to infidelity
Tending to needs that aren’t being met
Expressing self awareness and regret
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.41 → 0:00:38.93
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, which is a Q and A episode, I'm going to be talking about the old saying of once a cheater, always a cheater.
0:00:39.01 → 0:01:16.30
And this was inspired by a question that I received on Instagram, which was, my partner has been married three times and he's had an affair each time, will he change? So I've used this as a bit of a springboard into a broader conversation around the once a cheater, always a cheater saying that I'm sure we're all familiar with, and I'm going to be unpacking. That a little talking. About patterns of infidelity talking about whether you need to be concerned as someone in relationship with someone who has a pattern of cheating in their relationships or maybe even if you are the person who has had that pattern. Of infidelity.
0:01:16.44 → 0:02:16.71
Maybe you don't trust yourself not to do it again, and you have some fear and anxiety around your own patterns and behaviours. So I'm going to be sharing some thoughts on this. This will be a shorter episode as it's a Q and A episode, but I do have planned for a few weeks time more of a deep dive on why people cheat and different explanations for that and kind of digging a little deeper on this topic of infidelity rather than just casting someone as a villain and shrouding the whole thing in a lot of shame and not really engaging in the conversation in a way that is at all productive or that offers any humanity or insight in a way that we can actually make use of. Because I think, of course, there is so much pain and grief and sensitivity around this topic of infidelity and betrayal, but it can block us from having some important conversations because it is such a sensitive topic. So today will be, I suppose, a bit of a teaser for that episode that will be coming in a few weeks time.
0:02:16.78 → 0:02:43.78
So if you aren't already a subscriber or a follower of the show, make sure you do that so that you get those notifications when new episodes come out and you can catch that one when it comes out in a few weeks time. Okay? So before I dive into that, a couple of quick announcements. The first being that applications for my Homecoming Mastermind are still open. The group is filling up, so if you are interested in working with me directly over the long term, so it's a six month programme, I would love to receive your application.
0:02:44.15 → 0:03:19.72
I'm really excited to share that I've decided to open this round up to everyone. So previously, the first cohort of Homecoming was women only. But upon reflection and having received applications from men who really are in need of this work and are so there and ready and willing to do that work, I didn't feel good about having to turn people away who were in that position. So I've decided that I will open it up to all. So if you are interested in that, I would love to receive your application.
0:03:19.85 → 0:03:43.17
All of the details about Homecoming and the link to apply is in the show. Notes second quick announcement is just to share the featured review for today, which is Stephanie. And On Attachment is exactly what I needed on my journey. It's so hard finding the right fit when it comes to podcasts, and yet it was so easy. When I stumbled across Stephanie's on Attachment, I could immediately relate to the topics and the way Stephanie presents them.
0:03:43.24 → 0:03:56.19
I felt understood and at ease that I'm not alone in my journey. In a short span of time, I binge through every single episode. Now I find myself waiting for the latest one to drop. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and insight in such a real and considerate manner. I appreciate you and your work.
0:03:56.28 → 0:04:23.95
Thank you so much for that beautiful review. I appreciate you right back and thank you for taking the time to share that review. If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my master classes. Okay, let's dive into this conversation around once a cheater, always a cheater. So I think it's important to frame this discussion by saying in my mind, people can change and people do change.
0:04:24.10 → 0:05:06.50
I think that once a cheater, always a cheater is predicated on the notion that people cannot change, that there is some sort of fixed part of our nature, and that if you are the type of person who would cheat, then that is who you are and how you are. And you will continue to do that in every relationship, in every setting, because you are kind of fundamentally bad or broken and that's going to follow you wherever you go. I don't like that at all. I don't think that that is honest or realistic or kind to ourselves. And I don't think it really engages with what is going on when infidelity takes place in a relationship, which, as I alluded to, is a whole bigger discussion.
0:05:06.61 → 0:05:58.81
But in short, there are so many reasons why someone might break trust in a relationship by cheating on someone. And many of those reasons are not just because they are an uncaring, selfish person who is trying to do harm to those around them, or who is reckless or indifferent to the harm caused to those around them. So I think that understanding and recognising that people do absolutely change and grow and can do something once and feel immense shame and regret or maybe do it more than once and feel immense shame and regret and that they can take that regret as feedback and use that to course correct in future. I think that that is absolutely possible and indeed happens a lot. With that being said, I think that infidelity is complex and messy.
0:05:58.89 → 0:07:04.30
And while I don't think that it's driven by some sort of essential, fundamental wrongness or badness in a person 99% of the time, I do think it's driven by our shadow parts. Parts of us that are wounded, parts of us that feel inadequate, that feel a lot of shame, that feel uncomfortable with intimacy, that want to sabotage, that want to wreck things, that feel undeserving or unworthy. There's a lot there, and a lot of that is big, ugly, messy, painful stuff that we will go to great lengths to avoid feeling or being with or looking at. And so to the extent that infidelity has been driven by those shadow parts, parts of us that are maybe out of integrity or not in alignment with our values and who we want to be, then I think that we can continue to repeat those patterns until those wounded parts are tended to. I think oftentimes it's a call out from the parts of us that really do need our attention.
0:07:04.44 → 0:07:43.69
And if we kind of ignore that invitation and just blindly act in unhealthy or destructive ways, then obviously we're not addressing the core problem. And I suppose that's the point I'm trying to make is if you are dating someone, in the case of the person who asked this question, my husband been married three times and had an affair every time. If I were working with you, my question to you, Betty if I were working with him, my question would be, tell me about each of those times. What part of you was driving the bus when you made those decisions, what need was getting met by the affair? And have you tended to that part of you?
0:07:43.89 → 0:08:35.69
Because if not, then sure there's a good chance that that part will continue to jump up and down and try to get our attention and try to get that need met the only way it knows how. And maybe the way it knows how to do that or the way it has found solace from whatever pain or discomfort or other feelings are there has been in having an affair, in seeking out the attention and the validation of someone new where it doesn't feel as vulnerable as whatever is going on in the primary relationship. So I think that what I'd be looking for is have I grown through that woundedness? Have I given adequate care and attention to those wounded parts of me? Have I integrated that pain and really grieved whatever's there and cared for it?
0:08:35.86 → 0:09:06.79
Or is that wounded part of me still driving the bus? Okay, I think the other thing that I would add is for many people, infidelity is this bright line thing. So if you have never been unfaithful, if you've never crossed the line, then you might have certain ideas about yourself as to the type of person that you are. Meaning I would never do that, I'm not someone who cheats, that's not who I am. And that's kind of a nice clean bright line that you are squarely on one side of.
0:09:06.91 → 0:09:47.43
I think once you have crossed that line, then this big precipice that you are on the brink of and maybe you feel a lot of shame. And so that clean identity that you might have held onto previously, where you might have felt, I'm not that type of person. Maybe that perfectionistic view of yourself is shattered a little, and in so doing, you dismantle that identity and chip away at some self worth or some self respect. And that might lead you to being more inclined to repeat those behaviours. Because that bright line has already been crossed before.
0:09:47.58 → 0:10:25.18
So you no longer have this clean record that you can be really proud of. So I think that can happen. It's like the diminishing marginal impact in your own being of infidelity in a way that makes it not feel like as big a deal. Particularly maybe if you've gotten away with it in the past, if nothing bad happened, then whatever ideas you had around the gravity of infidelity might not be there. So you might not have experienced the grave consequences of that if you got away with it and so it might feel less consequential to do it again.
0:10:25.28 → 0:10:59.77
So that might be another factor as well. I think the last thing I'd say, and again this is more directed to the person who asks the question or anyone else in a similar situation, with similar fears or concerns, is how much self awareness does this person display around that pattern? And I think that that is ultimately going back to what I said around have they tended to the wounds? Do they understand who was driving the bus? Because if that were me, and I were in a relationship with someone who had that history, I'd be keen to understand do they know what that was really about for them?
0:10:59.81 → 0:11:54.99
Do they know what need was trying to get met? Because if they don't have the self awareness around it and they haven't taken responsibility, if they haven't done that integration work, then that might suggest that they could fall into similar patterns again in the future. Whereas having a great deal of self awareness around it and being able to own it and be accountable and take responsibility, that would give me a lot more comfort than someone who sheepishly admitted to something, but then didn't. Want to talk about it, for example, or who was maybe not forthcoming about that information at all and you found it out separately and those sorts of things. I think if someone is able to own their mistakes and express remorse and regret and self awareness around why that won't happen again, then that might be the evidence of growth that can give you comfort in being able to trust them again.
0:11:55.14 → 0:12:38.01
I hope that that has been helpful and interesting for you. And as I said, if infidelity is a topic of interest to you, and I know that's true for many people or otherwise you are in this situation, or a similar situation, or maybe you've been on the receiving end of infidelity in the past, or you have been the person who has breached trust. There will be another episode in a few weeks time all about cheating and why people cheat, so definitely keep an ear out for that. If you've enjoyed this episode, as always, eternally grateful for those of you who can leave a five star rating or a review. It is so helpful for me in continuing to get the word out about the podcast and sharing it with people in your life, all of those good things.
0:12:38.13 → 0:13:02.02
Otherwise, I look forward to seeing you again in the next episode. Thanks guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much.
0:13:02.15 → 0:13:04.74
Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
Helping Men Thrive in Life & Relationships with Connor Beaton
In today's episode, I'm talking with NY-based coach, teacher and speaker, Connor Beaton about the challenges men are facing in our modern society. Connor and I talk through how understanding the experience of men better, we can cultivate healthier relationships and happier and more fulfilled lives.
In today's episode, I'm talking with NY-based coach, teacher and speaker, Connor Beaton about the challenges men are facing in our modern society. Connor and I talk through how understanding the experience of men better, we can cultivate healthier relationships and happier and more fulfilled lives.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Numbing out pain from childhood and using unhealthy coping mechanisms
Stopping the cycle of running away from yourself
What it looks like inside a relationship when men are lacking confidence & competence
How vulnerability can be practised with men
What makes a great relationship
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.41 → 0:00:34.77
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to on Attachment. In today's episode, I'm joined by Connor Beaton, who is the founder of Man Talks.
0:00:34.85 → 0:01:02.94
We're going to be talking all about, as you might have guessed, men in particular. Some of the challenges that are facing men in our modern society, how that shows up in relationships, some guidance for men, and maybe also some guidance for people in relationship with men on understanding that experience a little better so that we can cultivate healthier relationships, happier and more fulfilling lives. So, Connor, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. You bet.
0:01:02.99 → 0:01:30.55
Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. So you've just released a book which is super exciting. Congratulations. I wonder if maybe we could kick off by you sharing a little bit of your own story as you do in the book, how you came into this work and your experience of, as you described it, I think hitting rock bottom and the come to Jesus moment that that presented for you.
0:01:30.62 → 0:02:29.55
If you're open to sharing a little bit with the listeners and giving them a bit of context for how you came to be where you are, I think that'd be great. Yeah, they got to buy the book to hear the story. No, I mean, one of the things I just want to know before I even say any of that, is that it's very common for us as men to have bought into this notion that we need to bottom out in order for things to change. And I see a lot of guys out there who can tell that they're on this downward trajectory towards imploding their marriage or destroying their business or their health or friendship or family relationships, whatever it is. Part of the reason why I do this work and wrote this book was I wanted to give guys a kind of resource that they could do the work in, because I think maybe, if you haven't noticed, not every man is open to therapy.
0:02:29.73 → 0:03:29.39
And so the book is kind of like a way for them to dive deep into some type of work that doesn't require them to go sit in therapy for weeks, months or years. My journey was one where I really did know that I was moving towards a rock bottom. If you had met me at the time, on the outside it looked like I was living a great life. I had wonderful relationship, I had a good career, I was travelling the world, I had the motorcycle and the Mustang, which at the time seemed very important to me. Maybe not the choice of cars that people would ultimately go with, but I had the things I had acquired and built a life that I thought presented me as a man in a certain way, presented this sort of air of accomplishment and success and hoped that along with that would come happiness.
0:03:29.73 → 0:04:32.58
And the challenge was that when I got there, having this career, travelling the world and having this relationship, I was still miserable. And a lot of that was because behind the scenes I had these we'll call them sort of the fancy term is maladaptive coping mechanisms. But I had these addictive behaviours that I had going on infidelity cheating in my relationship, using alcohol, substances, pornography, and I was very much out of control and I was out of control because I didn't like who I was. And I didn't like who I was because in many ways I had experienced a lot of pain and hurt in childhood that I didn't know how to deal with and no one had really shown me what to do with that pain and hurt as a young man, as an adult. And so I tried to deal with that pain and hurt by numbing it out, by drinking excessively or smoking weed or whatever it was.
0:04:33.03 → 0:05:17.41
And so I came into this work because that way of being wasn't workable for me anymore. And the lack of self respect and self love and self appreciation that I had for myself really brought me into some dark places and it caused me to sort of destroy everything that was going on in my life. My relationship fell apart. She found out that I was cheating on her, that I had cheated on her multiple times and I tried to talk my way out of it and it didn't work for a good reason and thank God it didn't. And I was questioning leaving my career and sort of all of these things came imploding in at one time and I didn't want to tell anybody.
0:05:17.52 → 0:05:41.68
I sort of bought into this, what I call in the book the one rule of men, which is when you're struggling, when you're suffering, just don't talk about it. It's kind of like the first rule of Fight Club which is you don't talk about Fight Club. Right? So I had bought into this notion that if I was struggling I need to figure it out by myself and that if I was struggling as a man that there was something inherently wrong with me. And so there was a lot of shame, there was a lot of self loathing.
0:05:41.74 → 0:06:09.07
Yeah, I was really in a bad place. And when I came out of the other side of that, after living out of the back of my car for a few weeks, not telling people what was going on, kind of in denial of what was happening, I started to connect with other men in my life. I connected with my mentor and a couple of things happened. One, I started to sort of be greeted by men in my life. When I would open up and tell them what had been going on, they reciprocated.
0:06:09.23 → 0:06:36.29
So, just a sort of brief aside like I read about in the book after my rock bottom having a conversation with a friend of mine who I had gone to university with and I'd known sort of everything about. And I opened up and I said, here's what's been going on, here's how I've been struggling. Here's what's really been going on behind the scenes that you haven't known about the infidelities and the pornography and the drug use and all this kind of stuff. And well, there wasn't a tonne of drug use. It was mostly alcohol.
0:06:36.34 → 0:07:14.52
But I opened up and told him what had been going on, and I shared pretty openly. And he paused and thanked me for my capacity to just sort of be real about what was transpiring and proceeded to share with me that he had been struggling with depression for a number of months and hadn't talked about it. And that it had gotten so bad that he had tried to take his own life. And in that moment, I really was sort of dumbstruck by this glaring notion. I thought I knew everything about this guy.
0:07:14.97 → 0:08:02.82
I knew the type of women he liked to date, I knew the type of scotch he liked to drink and the video games he liked to play. I knew all of that. But I didn't know that he had been struggling so much that he had tried to take his own life. And he knew everything about me, minus the fact that I was completely out of control behind the scenes and that I had been having affairs and getting drunk by myself and all this sort of ridiculous stuff, that I had really been cratering myself in my life and self destructing. And so that got me very present to the fact that maybe I should just sort of say as a caveat that I started to see that happening in many of my conversations with many of the men in my life, where I told them what I was going through and what was going on and what I was trying to work on.
0:08:02.95 → 0:09:01.74
And they reciprocated by telling me stuff that they hadn't been talking about marriages that were struggling, affairs that were happening, careers that they were very dissatisfied about, or businesses that were on the brink of falling apart. And I was really struck by how many of the men in my life I had surface level relationships with and that many of us as men had felt this kind of loneliness and isolation because we weren't talking about the real things that were going on behind the scenes. We were all sort of creating this appearance of what we thought we needed to be as men. And I think for good reason. I think society and culture and women and other men still want strong men and so there's a bit of a conundrum that a lot of us as men I found myself at least in of trying to, quote unquote, have my shit together but also being able to talk about where I'm struggling.
0:09:01.85 → 0:09:41.37
So that was one major thing. And then the last thing I'll say is I came into this work because of an elder. Because a man in my life who was in his seventy s I talked to him and tried to get some advice and guidance. And this elder happened to be versed in Union Psychology and Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and NLP and Gestalt and Buddhism and Taoism. And it sort of turned into this apprenticeship style relationship where for two and a half years after my quote unquote rock bottom, I would apprentice with him and learn all of these therapeutic modalities and spiritual modalities.
0:09:41.55 → 0:10:42.79
And in some ways, it really not only Saved me but put me on a different path and put me On A path where I wanted to be of service to other men who were going through, were on the path towards where I was going or were trying to come out the other side of what I had been through. And not that the details their life needs to look exactly the same, but men who are trying to better themselves in some capacity so maybe that's a little bit of a longer story than was necessary but no, that's great. There are so many pieces there. It sounds like a big part of that reckoning was like honesty with yourself, followed by honesty with others. And it's sort of like stopping that cycle of just running away from yourself, because I think we can all do that to varying capacities, in varying ways, but it's like there's ultimately no running away from yourself in any sustainable way.
0:10:42.83 → 0:11:08.19
Right. It catches up with you. It's like that wherever I go, there I am thing. And that's, I think, why it's so important for us to turn towards all of our shit. Whether that's relational stuff, whether it's low self worth childhood stuff, it's coming with you until you do the work of turning towards it and understanding it and healing it.
0:11:08.31 → 0:11:52.94
I think it'd be really helpful to hear a little more around like what do you see as being and particularly in the context of relationships, what do you see as being the key challenges that men are facing? Whether that's kind of observing from afar or the men that are coming to you, what are the key themes that emerge? Yeah, I mean there's a number of them. I think we're in a very interesting time socially and culturally where men are very much in decline and we can see this right? It's like 41% of college graduates are men so it's a very small percentage comparatively and less men are in the dating field than ever before.
0:11:52.99 → 0:12:25.51
Right. It's something like 27% of men under the age of 30 either haven't been sexually active or are in a relationship within the last twelve months, compared to 12% of women. You have 32% of men under the age of 29 that are still living at home versus living with a partner. So you have this sort of rise of men checking out from culture and society. And a lot of that is pointing to a couple things which I see happening within the context of relationships.
0:12:25.67 → 0:13:19.92
So one is there's a lack, I think, of men who are really feeling a sense of competence and coherence around what they contribute to the world, to society, to their friends, to their family, to their relationship. We as men want to have some form of function for the most part, right? We want to have purpose, we want to have meaning, we want to contribute. And I think part of the challenge that a lot of men are facing is that either they're looking out into the culture and they're being told you're not a value, you're not needed, you're not necessary, or they're entering into relationships and they're being told directly or indirectly, I don't need you. And that for most men, reinforces the second piece, which is isolation.
0:13:20.11 → 0:14:01.33
So a lot of men within relationships, what they're often struggling with and dealing with is a kind of isolation. They might not have a lot of other male friends and so they're over indexing on their intimate relationship, needing that person to really be everything for them, right? Needing them to be their emotional processing centre and help them understand how they're feeling and help them talk about their challenges and help them sort of discuss their dreams and their goals. Or they're isolated in the sense that they refuse to do any of that, right? They won't even go near a heart centred conversation.
0:14:01.41 → 0:14:22.95
They won't even talk about how they're feeling. And so when conflict comes up, they shut down. So those are sort of the high level things. I think what a lot of guys that are coming to me with in the context of the relationship is what I call self leadership. So a lot of men come to work with me because they don't feel like they're leading themselves effectively.
0:14:23.08 → 0:14:38.83
And so how that's showing up in their relationship? Is there's lots of conflict? They're shutting down a lot. They're very angry and resentful, but they don't know how to communicate it or it's sort of poisoning the waters of their intimacy. They have poor boundaries and they don't know how to stand up for themselves.
0:14:38.92 → 0:15:05.23
And so they're constantly playing into this game of if I just make you happy, then maybe you'll meet my needs. So there's a lot of that happening within the context of relationships. And I think we're also in an interesting time where I think more than ever, men are looking for solutions. I think we're in a time where a lot of men are starting to reflect on how do I develop myself? How do I better myself?
0:15:05.30 → 0:15:41.03
How do I be a better partner or husband or father or leader in general? So those are some of the things that stand out to me. Whether a man is lacking confidence or lacking competence. I think those are two interconnected things where maybe the last thing that I'll say is that and this isn't every man, but I think a lot of men take on the success or the burden of the relationship working. A lot of men gauge their value and their worth based on how the relationship is doing.
0:15:41.23 → 0:16:15.75
So if the relationship is doing well, that means that he's a success and he's a good man and all is well. If the relationship is doing poorly, then oftentimes a lot of guys and again, this isn't every man, but a lot of men will make it mean that they're a failure and that they're doing something wrong, and it sort of impinges on their sense of self worth. So there's a number of different factors, but I think ultimately it really boils down to how a man is leading himself in the relationship. Is he communicating the way that he wants? Is he having the hard conversations?
0:16:15.93 → 0:16:33.48
Is he exploring sexually in the way that he wants? Is he being open and honest about what he wants to explore sexually with his partner? Because that can be wildly uncomfortable. Is he doing what's necessary to understand his own internal landscape? Right?
0:16:33.53 → 0:16:53.95
His own emotions, his own reactivity, his own anger so that it's not infringing on his ability to hear what his partner is going through? So most of the time, that's what a guy's struggling with. There's a great quote by Carl Jung. He said that women stand at the edge of what a man knows about himself. A woman stands where a man's shadow begins.
0:16:54.37 → 0:17:35.24
And so a lot of the times guys come to me and what's happened is that they have externalised a lot of their power onto their partner and they're trying to figure their partner out. We kind of talk ourselves as men into this notion of, like well, if I just figure you out if I just figure out what I need to fix for you and what I need to give for you and get for you and provide for you. And if I can just figure out how to make you happy, then maybe I'll have a chance at that. And we miss, in that process who we become. We miss our reactivity, we miss our insecurities, we miss our fears, we miss our desires.
0:17:35.38 → 0:18:20.73
We kind of take a backseat in that process. And so what ends up happening is that a man in a relationship will slowly start to isolate in one way or another whether he's isolating his sexual desires, whether he's isolating his boundaries, whether he's isolating his empathy and compassion or his love or his emotionality. But he'll isolate something as a means of I'm protecting you or I'm trying to make sure that you're getting what you want, or I'm trying to make sure that this relationship is just functioning. So those are a few things. Yeah, I think that that dynamic of focusing on the other is a really convenient way to deflect from our own stuff, right?
0:18:20.80 → 0:18:48.34
To bypass our own work. It's like, oh, if I can make you happy, that's my job. But I think the corollary of that, the other side of that coin, is inevitably that not working. And then either me blaming myself or me blaming you, either you're impossible to please, fuck this, it's not worth it. Retreating, isolating or blaming yourself, going into shame and unworthiness and all of the things that go along with that.
0:18:48.39 → 0:19:30.97
But neither of those are really recipes for healthy relationships. And I think there's just a lot of woundedness going back and forth there. I think that what I see a lot I probably work with. The other side of the equation to you is mostly women and mostly more anxious women who are wanting to grip and control and fix and reach their partner and are probably more often again, not always, but I think there is more of a tendency and there's certainly a trope around it. Anxious woman, avoidant male and that dynamic of poking the bear, of trying to get past the wall.
0:19:31.14 → 0:20:13.77
And I think that what I often see is people who present as more avoidant have a really deep core wound around defectiveness and not being enough, not being successful. That sense of like, nothing I do is enough, and feeling a deep sense of shame and failure. But often that sits a few layers deeper and is covered by a lot of protective stuff. So I think that all of that is very much in alignment with what I see. I think one of the things that came out in that concept of self leadership is like efficacy and men needing to experience their own efficacy.
0:20:13.90 → 0:20:39.70
And again, I think it's true for everyone, but especially probably for men, this sense of purpose and efficacy. Can I experience examples of my own follow through and integrity and discipline? I think that that stuff is nothing short of medicinal for men and in relationships as well. I agree entirely. And I think it's generality, right?
0:20:39.72 → 0:21:19.16
It's a general statement. But I think generally a lot of women underestimate how important competency is for a man to feel like he has a place in your life, to feel like he is doing things right, to feel like he is contributing to you in some way, shape or form. To know and have it validated that he has an inherent value to you as his partner. And we could kind of go into why that is socially. I don't know if that would necessarily be helpful, but I think the one thing that I would say is that for most men.
0:21:20.33 → 0:22:02.58
We know that we have to build some kind of value in our life and that we have to build skills and we have to build character traits that are going to make us appealing as viable partners. And if we don't do that, or if we're riddled by shame or riddled by abuse from childhood that's getting in the way of that or stories that were not enough because we were bullied in school, then it's going to get in the way of our ability to feel like we are able to, in a meaningful way, contribute to your life. Because there is a kind of nourishment that I think most men find in that place.
0:22:05.03 → 0:22:56.12
I just wanted to add that in because I do think that it's oftentimes a very male specific thing, that it's like, I want to have a place in your life and I want to know that I'm contributing value and I want to be recognised for that value. And I want that value to sometimes not only come from me, but to have it be something sacred that's a part of our relationship and our dynamic. And because for a lot of men, they can't get that from anywhere else. A lot of men don't have society and friends and family members telling them, I really value what you bring to the table. I really value how hard you work in this area of your life to whatever it is to put groceries on the table or to drive our kids to soccer or to make sure that the house is always clean or in good order.
0:22:56.89 → 0:23:56.13
That's not really happening in a lot of other places. And so I think what I usually say to couples, regardless of the dynamic, is that appreciation is the currency of intimacy and that you can never underestimate how valuable appreciation truly is for the other person. And one of the things that I usually say to a couple is if you can discover the type and quality and consistency and the sort of specifics of what your partner wants to be valued for and appreciated for, that is a kind of gold that you will be bringing into your relationship. And if two people are willing to do that, to say, here's what I really love being appreciated for. We live on an acreage and it's like five acres and so we have a two year old, so there's diapers everywhere all the time, right?
0:23:56.25 → 0:24:17.34
It smells terrible. But our garbage is way at the end of the driveway, right? And so I have to either walk the garbage all the way down to the thing at the end of the driveway, which is a good, like, 15 minutes excursion, or I have to pile the garbage into the car and take the car to the end of the driveway. Now, my wife hates doing this. Guess what?
0:24:17.39 → 0:24:53.32
I don't enjoy doing it either, but it's something that I undertake. And so just a simple thing, just a simple example. My wife has just made it a point to thank me for doing those types of things because I'm contributing something to the relationship, making our life a little bit easier, taking care of something around the house, and I'm getting it done even though I know that neither of us want to do it. And so it's those types of things that are small and simple, but become the kind of foundational fabric that pulls a relationship together. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
0:24:53.37 → 0:25:31.28
And it's something that in my own life I had to really deliberately unlearn what was modelled to me in terms of I think there can be competitiveness in unhappy marriages. There can be this sense of like me appreciate you when you haven't done X, Y and Z thing and there's all this for growth, right? You're the scorekeeping. And almost this protectiveness or guarding of kindness and appreciation because it hasn't been earned, or there's all of these things outstanding. And if I were to acknowledge the positives, then all of these negatives might not get addressed or they might get overlooked.
0:25:31.34 → 0:26:18.15
And so I think the fear will often drive someone to just keep pointing out all of the things that aren't right, that aren't up to scratch, that still need work. And it's just so counterproductive. Because I think when someone feels like the example that I give, and again, is often in more of that anxious, avoidant dynamic. It can be like if you've asked your partner to do ten things and they do nine, of them. And your focus is on the one that they didn't do and the imperfect part of it, and taking that as evidence of something, of whatever story you're telling yourself about who they are or how much they care about you, or if you really cared about me, you would have done X, or you would have done it better or differently.
0:26:18.81 → 0:27:01.71
It's just like sometimes we need to step back from our own agenda, and particularly if we notice that part of ourselves that's resistant to showing appreciation, to voicing that, and going like, what am I gatekeeping here? And Why? Well, part of me is reluctant to be loving. What am I afraid would happen if I voiced my appreciation freely? I think the thing you'll hear a lot is like, I shouldn't have to thank my partner for doing basic things and I get where it's coming from and I think it's something we've got to get a little curious about because I don't know what it's in service of.
0:27:01.83 → 0:27:13.12
I hear that all the time. I shouldn't have to thank my partner for basic things. It's like, no, you just don't want to. And there's a big difference because you do have to, right? You do have to, you just don't want to.
0:27:13.22 → 0:27:53.78
And when you start to get clear on why it is that you don't want to, and what you're actually withholding from the relationship and what might be possible. I think in a lot of cases I shouldn't need to, which is, as I've said, is I don't want to. And it's usually I don't want to because then I might be recognising something that you're doing, right. I might be recognising what you are actually doing. And when I recognise that, it might actually override this unhelpful story that you never do enough or you're not doing what I want you to, or whatever it is, the story is that's being held by that individual.
0:27:54.23 → 0:28:38.98
And so, yeah, usually when I hear people say that, my response is, you do need to, and you probably need to, maybe more than anybody else, because there's a natural resistance and rejection of it. And I think I hesitate to go down this route, but I'm going to do it anyways. We'll just see where this goes. But I think in our modern culture, a lot of women have been sold this bill of goods of you shouldn't need a man and you should be everything for yourself. And that sort of becomes problematic in a relationship where you just don't have space for a man to even contribute to you.
0:28:39.99 → 0:29:18.27
And I get it to a certain degree. Like, my wife is a badass, and she's built a huge business, and she's wildly successful, and I love her. And I'm her biggest cheerleader, I'm her biggest fan, and I'm her biggest supporter. But she still does a great job of being able to say, here's where the way that you contribute to me is invaluable where I can't find that anywhere else. And to say something like that, or to acknowledge something like that, is to put ourselves in a position of vulnerability and it is to put ourselves into a position of admission of love, of appreciation.
0:29:18.61 → 0:29:58.98
And I think that oftentimes that's a very challenging place to be for anybody. And so I think there's sometimes an avoidance of that because it feels uncomfortable to be in this more soft space that's actually admitting, I enjoy leaning on you, I enjoy you taking care of these things for me. I remember my wife and I had a conversation in the beginning of our relationship where I was taking care of a few things in our relationship that other partners hadn't for her. And it was a very challenging thing. We had a couple of conversations where I was like, why won't you recognise me for this?
0:29:59.08 → 0:30:33.08
And she's like, I don't know, I hadn't really thought about it. And then, because she's very reflective and very wise, she came back and she said, you know, it's actually very uncomfortable for me to admit that I enjoy that and it's very uncomfortable for me to be in a position of feeling taken care of in the way that you take care of me. Because she had grown up, only child, Division One lacrosse player, first chair, violin in the orchestra. Top of her class, built her business. She's really crushed it.
0:30:34.89 → 0:31:24.02
But to be taken care of in the way that I was is to sort of be in this position that she had never been in before. And so I think that that's very challenging for some folks. So I know I kind of path, but no, I think it's a really insightful path, and I completely agree with you, and I really resonate with all of that challenge in your relationship. Sort of for myself, I think that learning to receive when you've been really, really good at doing it all for yourself, you've had your own competence, kind of nurtured, and that's been part of your modus operandi. It's like, oh, wait, if I can let down my guard and actually allow myself to be supported and held and received, that's an intensely vulnerable thing to do if it's not what you used to.
0:31:24.07 → 0:32:05.31
And for myself in my current relationship. That's been a very healing thing for me, I think by contrast to a previous relationship where I wasn't able to do that. I think part of it was definitely my stuff, but part of it was not trusting in the steadiness of my partner and not trusting in his dependability and his reliability and probably his integrity enough to kind of lay down the guard and go, okay, I can lean on you. So I think it's both, right? It's how much of it's my stuff, how much of it is you not being a safe person for me to really kind of relax into.
0:32:05.48 → 0:32:37.51
But I think that if you can find that dynamic, it's deeply nourishing on both sides. I think it really is. Yeah. I think we often, with the rise of the therapeutic industry in our modern culture, where everything has sort of become pathologized and therapeutic speak, has entered into mainstream culture in a way that is just unheard of before. I find that the majority of people are convinced that they know exactly what they want.
0:32:37.68 → 0:33:35.05
And to me, it removes the mystery of romance and love and intimacy, because the truth about a really good romantic intimacy and relationship is that it's going to evoke what you need, which oftentimes is not what you thought. But we have this kind of arrogance and omnipotence that we adopt that says, I know exactly what I need and I know exactly what I want. And there's no room to say maybe I actually don't know everything that I need and want in a relationship. And maybe I can leave some room for awe and wonder and surprise for somebody to show up and maybe be providing for me or contributing to me or loving me in a way that I didn't even know that I needed. But if we're so busy telling them, this is exactly how you should love me and this is exactly what I need all the time, there's just no room for that.
0:33:35.22 → 0:34:11.38
But that's kind of sometimes what I find the therapeutic space on Instagram and social media really selling. And I think that it's really unfortunate for the truth of intimacy, which is often wildly uncomfortable and unknown and mysterious and awe invoking and whimsical. And when we can allow for some of that, then we can get what we need in a way that we hadn't expected. And I know that there's caveats to that trauma and PTSD and abusive relationships. I know that there's trauma.
0:34:11.49 → 0:34:24.32
I know that there's caveats to what I'm saying. Sometimes we really do need to speak. I can hear people like, wow, what about abuse? What about that? Yes, I know all those things, and I agree.
0:34:24.71 → 0:34:58.63
Yes. Yeah, I agree. I think that it is it is the unfortunate byproduct of Instagram and social media and like, that we all lean on so much for this work, but there are constraints of the format and constraints of communicating things in short form that you miss the nuance and the mess. You talk about the mystery of relationships. I find so much people coming to me, and you just see the fear in the question, is it like, is it this or this?
0:34:58.67 → 0:35:40.02
Is it me or them? That's the problem. How do I know if and it's just like this really rigid, like, I need to know the answer so that I can figure out the solution, so that I can stop myself from getting hurt. And so I think we have to look at our relationship to control and trust, self trust and trust of the other, because I think we can only really allow ourselves to ride in that mystery and really flow with it to the extent that we trust ourselves to be with whatever arises and wherever it takes us. Because when we don't have that self trust, we need to have a plan for every possible scenario so that we're braced for it.
0:35:40.07 → 0:36:17.36
But I think that that can become a real self fulfilling prophecy, because when we're bracing for the pain or bracing for the hurt or the betrayal or the abandonment or the rejection, we lead with that. And we're so guarded from the outset, we're preparing, if I say this, they're going to say that, and then I'll say this, and lo and behold, that's the exact conversation we have. So I think that kind of going to our relationships with curiosity and openness. It is a portal to much greater, deeper intimacy. I agree entirely.
0:36:17.42 → 0:36:40.77
Well said. Something that I really liked in your book was talking about vulnerability. And you spoke about vulnerability as when women in particular say they want men to be more vulnerable, it's not just, I want you to be more emotional. It's like, I want to know that you're aware. I thought that was a really great distinction.
0:36:40.90 → 0:37:18.64
I remember seeing a clip of John Weiland a few years ago talking about awareness and how that was such an attractive trait for men to possess and for women to perceive in men, it's like, I'm self aware. I'm aware of you and what's going on with you, the impact of my behaviour on you. I'm kind of environmentally relationally aware. And I think that that's just so astute. I think that without most people wouldn't be able to put words to that, but I think if you said it to them, they'd be like, yes, that is what I'm looking for.
0:37:18.66 → 0:37:47.68
I'm looking to know that you are aware and that I can trust you, that you are in control of yourself, that you are able to self regulate, able to carry yourself. Because if you're not aware, then I feel like I have to be aware for you. And that scares me. Could you speak a little more about that? Yeah, I mean, in a very simple sense, a man who is unaware of what he's experiencing or a man who won't admit to what he's experiencing is a dangerous man.
0:37:47.81 → 0:38:17.03
Yeah, right. It's plain and simple and dangerous in the sense that for a woman that's hard to be around. When a woman is around a man who she can sense and kind of knows you're angry right now, and that man isn't willing to admit, yes, I'm angry, or yes, I'm feeling this way, that's scary, right? That's just plain and simple, right? I mean, I'm six two, my wife is five eight.
0:38:17.07 → 0:38:29.62
I'm 200 pounds. Right? She's not. And so just that natural dynamic. I mean, I can imagine being around a dude that's like six foot six and 300 pounds and I'm like, Are you angry?
0:38:29.65 → 0:38:31.36
And he's like, no, I'm fine.
0:38:33.81 → 0:39:01.62
I can tell that he's pissed. It's like, well, that doesn't feel safe, right? It just doesn't feel safe, plain and simple. If you just remove all the dynamics and make it very logical. And so I think we as men, often we hear this conversation about vulnerability and there's this huge push I think I wrote about in the book the Myth of Male Vulnerability, this notion that we as men are just inundated with these messages, you need to be more vulnerable.
0:39:01.68 → 0:39:33.77
And it doesn't even really seem to matter what the prognosis is or what the challenge or the problem is that a man is facing the solution. And the medicine that is delivered to him always seems to be you just need to be more vulnerable. And I think it's garbage. I think that there is a time and place for a man to be vulnerable, but I think that most men know that there is an inherent risk to them being vulnerable. If you are vulnerable in the wrong way with a relationship, that might end it.
0:39:33.86 → 0:40:02.91
And that's just true. And we as men know that because if I'm in the beginning of a relationship with a woman and I'm building rapport with her and something happens in my life and I break down about it and am completely dysregulated and sort of beside myself about it, and she's having to care for me. That can shift the dynamic of the relationship immediately. And men know that. So men, we kind of know that.
0:40:02.94 → 0:40:44.34
We don't know if we're going to get rejected or if we're going to have our experience shut down or if that's going to impact the intimacy within the relationship. So I think it's a very challenging thing for men to find the balance of. But what I do know is that oftentimes what women are actually saying is not that I just want you to open up and cry all the time, or I want you to tell me how sad and depressed you are. Or I want you to inundate me daily with how overwhelmed you are with work or how much you hate your job. What I actually want is some indication of that, you know, what's happening inside of you.
0:40:44.52 → 0:41:21.94
Because that shows me that you have a certain level of awareness. You feel more safe when you're able to do that. And you're in charge, not in control, but you're in charge of what's happening inside of you. So you're taking responsibility and ownership as a man over I feel a lot of anger, or I feel pressed lately, or I have a lot of anxiety coming up, or I really am struggling with whatever it is job, work, friends, mom, dad, et cetera. So that's I think the kind of vulnerability that a lot of men are being asked to do.
0:41:22.07 → 0:42:02.00
And I think that the more depth oriented emotional processing that seems to get talked about in modern culture is something that men need to practise amongst other men because it's not a natural for most guys. It's not like second nature, just being very open and vulnerable about how they're feeling about having been in a sexless marriage for two years. It doesn't feel natural for a lot of men to open up and say, here's how I've been struggling behind the scenes. And we can talk about, well, how do we change culture and how do we make it more natural? And all those types of things.
0:42:02.05 → 0:42:32.28
But that's a very complex dialogue. So I think the more direct thing speaking directly to men is when you're able to step into owning what your direct felt experience is. Meaning, what are you actually experiencing directly in the moment in your body? Heat, frustration, anger, confusion, anxiety, coldness, et cetera. Like, what's actually going on inside of you.
0:42:32.30 → 0:42:58.78
When you're able to identify that for yourself and communicate some of it to your partner, you are displaying the type of vulnerability that most women are asking for. Right? You're saying, I know how I feel right now. You're right. I am feeling angry, or, yeah, you know, I feel kind of ashamed that I forgot to do that, or I feel embarrassed about this thing that happened, and I don't need you to fix it for me.
0:42:58.80 → 0:43:22.63
I don't need you to solve it for me. I want you to know that that's what's going on. And that in itself, for most women is going to be like a big sigh. It's like, okay, you can recognise. And the bonus, the sort of icing on the cake is when a man is able to say, and I have the resources in my life to go and work through this or deal with this.
0:43:22.67 → 0:44:08.77
I have good men in my life that I can bring this problem to or this challenge to, to discuss, to feel through, to explore, et cetera. And it's not that we can't do that in our relationship, but again, the majority of men over index on their relationship to be that space where they bring their internal world. And for most men, it's a sign that there's a wound with the masculine, there's a wound with men that they don't trust men to bring their challenges, to bring their hardship, to bring their emotions, their hurt, their pain. It's why the first line in my book is a man's work begins in pain. It begins with your pain as a man and beginning to understand it.
0:44:08.94 → 0:44:26.88
So yeah, maybe I'll pause there. Yeah. When you say that for a lot of women, hearing that kind of like, I know what's going on for me and I've got this, here's how I'm feeling. I think this might be what that's about and I'm going to take care of it in this way. And it's just like and it is.
0:44:26.93 → 0:45:19.50
And I think that that goes back to this over functioning thing that a lot of women have developed to keep themselves protected or just because that's kind of how we've been socialised in recent times, to be able to do everything and take care of ourselves and take care of other people. But at the same time, something I see all the time and I relate to is like this deep and visceral fear of having to do that forever. And so it's both. It's like I can do it and that's like that's my default and that's where I'll go that's comfortable for me, to take responsibility for you and try and micromanage you and do the psychoanalysis for you and try and do your emotional processing for you and suggest what you might need. But at the same time, I'm terrified of having to do that because the thing that comes up is like, who's going to do that for me?
0:45:19.60 → 0:45:57.44
That's right. If if I'm always the supporter and the carer, then there is a part of me that's terrified that I'm going to be alone or kind of emotionally abandoned if and when it's my turn to need support. Or perhaps I'll just never let myself be in need of support because I don't trust in your ability to hold me there. So again, it's this thing of like, there's stuff on both sides there and it can be really painful or it can be really healing to step back. And I think for women, there is a level of needing to step back.
0:45:58.05 → 0:46:16.58
Something that I'd be interested in your take on is like, who goes first on that? Do you think it's just like dependent on the relationship? Does the man have to step up and prove himself trustworthy? Does the woman need to step back and give him the space to do that? Is there a better view there, or is it just going to depend on the relationship?
0:46:17.35 → 0:46:50.30
Yeah, I think a lot of it is relationship dependent, but I work predominantly with men and then sometimes with couples. And so my pathway is always through men. And so I always like to say, guys, you have to sort of take the step first because that's right. The notion that if I can signal to you that I know what's going on inside of me, I have that awareness. I have the tools and the resources to traverse that right.
0:46:50.35 → 0:47:34.79
My anger, my frustration, my shame, my disappointment, whatever it might be about in my life, then I'm sending a signal to my partner saying, I know how to do this for myself, and so I can also do it for you. And there's a really deep attraction to that. I think I look at a lot of the, again, the therapeutic content, the dating, coaching content that's out there on Instagram and social media, facebook and TikTok and that kind of stuff. And really, that's what a lot of it is advocating for, quote unquote, holding space. Well, how is a man to know how to hold space for his partner if he has no idea how to be with his own emotional intensity?
0:47:34.92 → 0:48:00.79
How is he supposed to do that? So there's all of this content that's out there trying to tell guys, here's how you hold space for your partner, here's how you understand what they're experiencing, here's how you move through conflict. And it's like, well, that guy probably has no clue in the first place. Not that it's all men, right? I'm not bashing in any way, shape or form, but that guy might not understand how to deal with his own emotional intensity.
0:48:01.21 → 0:48:42.93
And so if he doesn't know how to be with his nervous system in the first place and the charge that might happen when he's around somebody else's intensity, sadness, grief, anger, frustration, et cetera, then the moment that he steps into the arena of, okay, I'm going to hold some space for you. I want to hear what you have to say. I want to have this hard conversation or hear about what happened with your day. His nervous system is going to light up like a Christmas tree, and he's going to become dysregulated and maybe reactive and defensive or try and solve the problem. And so I think one of the greatest gifts that we as men can give the world is to understand how to regulate and ground ourselves.
0:48:43.51 → 0:49:24.53
And because the world in some ways it still is a dangerous place and life is very, very hard and so are intimate relationships counter to what Disney might have sold you. Right. It's very challenging. And so we as men, when we have done the work, to be grounded, to have a certain amount of self awareness, to be able to regulate our own internal state, that is something so wildly appealing to women or to anybody, because we all know how hard that is. Everybody knows how hard that is.
0:49:24.64 → 0:49:51.29
Right? To stay grounded, to be regulated, to be able to go into a conflict and stay solid and hear the other person, and to tune into your own internal state, it is incredibly difficult and it's why it is so attractive and appealing. And that's what I see a lot of the content advocating for the sort of subtext to it is like, I just want a man who is grounded and emotionally solid.
0:49:53.95 → 0:50:16.43
That's the beginning of the work. Yeah, totally. I think that's so spot on. It's like how could I ever feel safe with your emotions if my impulse, when my own arise is to make them go away as quickly as possible? Of course, if that's my baseline, then I'm going to try and fix or solve or react or defend against yours because I see those things as inherently threatening.
0:50:16.59 → 0:50:53.93
My radar is going like, oh, like anger or sadness or whatever else is not a safe thing to have in my environment, then I'm going to try and make it go away. And so I think you're right. It has to start with kind of recalibrating our own relationship to those things in order that we can be with them without automatically going to those protective mechanisms. That relationally. If you're on the receiving end of that, it just feels like a denial or that kind of emotional abandonment or you're not really seeing me.
0:50:54.13 → 0:51:12.10
Yeah, well, I think that both people have a role and a responsibility in it. And I think it's oftentimes what we do is we enter into this with those types of questions. I hear I get all those DMs all the time. Right? It's like, well, should he be doing this first or should I do this first?
0:51:14.07 → 0:51:57.97
I do think that both people have a responsibility. I think in some ways what men are often looking for from their female partners is an acknowledgment of when it is going right. That appreciation that I was talking about before, the acknowledgment of when a man has stayed grounded, has been able to hold space, has been able to have the tough conversation and that little amount of appreciation cannot be underestimated. I think that's part of it. But the other part is to give that man some space in order to get it wrong, in order to fail.
0:51:58.47 → 0:52:14.06
I usually tell men, you can't criticise or complain your way into more sex. And what I usually say to women is you can't criticise and complain your way to more emotional connection. It just doesn't work. Right. It shuts down the conversation.
0:52:14.17 → 0:52:37.11
And yet this is the tactic that so many men and so many women take in relationships, right? It's like, I want more sex and so I'm going to criticise you and complain about it. And for a lot of women, it's like, Well, I want more emotional connection, or maybe it's, I want more sex. Right. They can both apply to both genders, but we use criticism and complaints as a means of trying to get our needs met and just never works.
0:52:37.20 → 0:53:06.13
So the best thing we can do is create a little bit of space and reinforce what's working. Well, yeah, totally. I mean, I think to go back to kind of like a safety thing, if if this person's emotionally disconnected from me because anything else doesn't feel safe, then, like, telling them how wrong and bad they are is not going to be the thing. Like, that create the soil in which that safety and the connection is going to grow. It's just the complete opposite of what we need.
0:53:06.17 → 0:53:29.28
I always imagine, like a tortoise retracting into its shell and then just sort of like beating on the shell and saying, come out. It's not going to work. Right. It's the opposite. It's like, how can I contribute to your experience of safety in this relationship and trust that from there we'll grow in connection together rather than, how can I force you to show up the way I want you to so that I feel better about things?
0:53:30.93 → 0:53:54.37
It takes a lot of kind of emotional maturity and personal responsibility to step back from our own agenda and look at the relationship more holistically. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's easy for us to love the parts of our partner that we already love. And it's hard for us to love the parts of them that we wish were different and learning.
0:53:54.57 → 0:54:35.32
I had a very wise mentor. I've had the grace and the fortune of having a number of them, but one of them said, acceptance without love is hollow. And so oftentimes we see these hard parts of our partner, maybe they're a little bit more reactive than we'd like them to be or they shut down easily, or whatever the case may be. And at first we buck against it and we might criticise them and try and get them to change and then we move into a place of, well, maybe I'll just accept this, but that acceptance is holding hands with, I don't like it, I'll tolerate this shit. I bet it judgement.
0:54:35.48 → 0:54:58.06
That's right. It's not hand in hand with, I accept this because I'm learning to love your flaws and fallibility and what a gift that is to another human being to say, I see that you're struggling with this. I see that you're working on this. I see that this is a challenge, and I love this part of you anyway.
0:55:00.83 → 0:55:20.78
And sometimes we need that. Sometimes we as human beings, we really do need that. And we need somebody to believe in us, sometimes more than we believe in ourselves. And we need somebody to love the hard parts of us that we haven't figured out how to love yet. I mean, that is just the truth of human nature, fortunately, or unfortunately.
0:55:20.92 → 0:56:18.52
And I think one of the things that my wife and I have always tried to do, whether it's in our work with couples or in our work in our own relationship, is to bring ourselves closer to being able to love those parts of one another that we are struggling with, that we can see that the other person is having a hard time accepting. Now, of course, there's boundaries within that, and that happens within reason, and it's not letting the other person get away with all kinds of nonsense that is diminishing their relationship. But it's really looking at, how can I love this part of my partner that I can see that they're struggling with and that I'm struggling to accept. And when we can make that part of our mission of love, part of our mission of intimacy, part of our mission of a relationship, things will naturally start to change. Because maybe I'll just share a quick example.
0:56:19.29 → 0:56:52.16
I remember my wife tells this story, and so I'm telling it because she's told it where we were in a conflict in the beginning of our relationship. We'd been dating for like, seven or eight months, and I don't remember what the conflict was about or what we were actually in an argument about, but she was really coming at me, and she was trying to prove a point, and she wasn't letting it go. And she was fiery and fierce, and she was really coming at me. And I kept saying to her, I got it. I understand.
0:56:52.77 → 0:57:00.82
I got it. You're right. And she just kept coming at me. And finally I just said, Can I pause you for a moment? And she said, Fine.
0:57:01.59 → 0:57:20.62
And I said, Are you hearing that? I've got what you're saying? And she's like, yes. I'm like, oh, okay. Well, can I just tell you that even though you're really pissed off right now that I still love you, and even though you're trying to battle me right now, that I still love you and that I do hear what you're saying?
0:57:21.15 → 0:58:00.85
And she just sat there for a moment. I could see it was like a good hit to the heart in a way. And she just started crying, and she was, like, disarming, and she was just like the way that she described it after was I felt like I was being so unlovable. I could hear myself not letting it go, trying to prove the point, getting in your face, almost attacking you verbally and coming at you and all this stuff, and you just held your ground and reminded me that I was loved. And in the moment where I felt like I was unlovable, you loved me anyways.
0:58:00.93 → 0:58:21.89
And she's done that for me dozens of times, countless times. And that's the practise. Can I love you in the moments when you're being unlovable and again, not abusive, right? Not trauma inducing or anything like that, but just the everyday shit that we all fall into. Can I love you in those moments?
0:58:21.94 → 0:58:45.47
And that's the game. And if you can play that game in a relationship, you'll find a depth within the relationship that is unparamount. It really is. It's just not found anywhere else because you'll be on an adventure with somebody who's willing to love the hard parts of you alongside your journey and trying to figure that shit out. So well said.
0:58:45.67 → 0:58:58.30
Just to wrap up quickly, what do you think makes a great relationship? As I say, just to wrap up quickly, we could probably do a whole hour on that question, but what would be the headline for you on what makes a great relationship?
0:59:01.23 → 0:59:30.27
I think it's a lot of what I said before, but what I usually again, I'm going to use the lens that I usually say to men, but I think it's applicable to everybody, which is find someone that you can do conflict with. And it sounds counterintuitive, but it's the thing that most people don't look for, right? Most of us are looking for the great love and the amazing sex that blows our mind that we're thinking about for days after. And great, look for all those things. Right.
0:59:30.31 → 0:59:47.28
Have all whatever ingredients you're looking for in a great relationship. Look for those things. Don't let go of them, but see if you can find somebody that you're willing to go through conflict with. I said this to my wife last night. Literally last night, I hugged her.
0:59:47.30 → 1:00:07.76
And I said, because we've been talking about moving and it's a very challenging conversation, there's a lot of pieces involved. And I hugged her and I kissed her on the cheek. And I said, there is no one else in life that I would rather go through hardship with. And I think that that's the essence of it that we often miss out on. Because fucking life is hard, man.
1:00:09.57 → 1:00:41.19
Raising kids, losing parents, your own health, finances, the economy, whatever the hell is happening in North America right now, it's a shit show. It's hard. And so if you can find somebody that you oftentimes, maybe not always, but you can oftentimes enjoy going through that hardship with, I think that that's just such a gift. Yeah, couldn't agree more. I often say to people, it's like, find a person with whom the hard stuff brings you together rather than divides you.
1:00:41.23 → 1:00:56.17
I think that is really like a hallmark of a great relationship. It's like when. Life gets hard, as it inevitably will? Do we band together and make each other stronger? Or does that divide us and turn us into enemies or competitors?
1:00:56.77 → 1:01:09.22
I think that's very telling. Yeah. And can both people commit to that? I think that's the other caveat, right? That both people actually need to commit to that way of being within the relationship and that value within the relationship.
1:01:09.99 → 1:01:27.14
Totally. Connor, thank you so much. This has been such a beautiful conversation. I really think that for a lot of people, it's probably stuff that they've not really delved into before this whole topic of men's work and men's challenges. And I think it's a really important conversation now more than ever.
1:01:27.19 → 1:01:46.09
So thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationship, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com.
1:01:46.21 → 1:01:55.84
And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.
Why we want to believe in "the one"
In today's episode, I'm unpacking the concept of "the one". When it comes to relationships, many of us have absorbed the conditioning that there is some perfect person out there for us - and our only job is to find them. This can lead us down a rabbit hole of doubt, comparison and low self-worth.
In today's episode, I'm unpacking the concept of "the one". When it comes to relationships, many of us have absorbed the conditioning that there is some perfect person out there for us - and our only job is to find them. This can lead us down a rabbit hole of doubt, comparison and low self-worth.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
why the idea of "the one" is unrealistic
how it can lead us to doubt our perfectly normal, healthy relationship
the unexpected reason why we might seek out "the one"
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
0:00:00.41 → 0:00:34.16
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge, and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. Today's episode is a short and sweet one.
0:00:34.26 → 0:01:02.35
I'm going to be sharing some reflections and hard truths about finding the one. So I think this idea of the one is something that we've all had drilled into us by fairy tales and Hollywood and everything else. This idea that we've just got to keep looking. And then eventually we're going to find this perfect person who sweeps us off our feet, who thinks that we are the greatest thing to ever grace this earth. And we'll fall desperately in love.
0:01:02.50 → 0:01:34.20
And we'll get married and live happily ever after. And we'll live out our days in perfect harmony. And as lovely as that picture and that image is, I hate to be the one to break it to you that it is unrealistic and sets us up for a lot of doubt and a lot of pain and a lot of suffering. So I'm going to be sharing some reframes on that. And in addition to reframes and hard truths, maybe asking some pointed questions around what we get out of believing that there is this one out there for us.
0:01:34.25 → 0:02:03.52
So that's what I'm going to be chatting about today. As I said, it's a short and sweet episode, so hopefully that will give you lots to think about in a nice, compact format before I dive into that. Just sharing the featured review for today, which is this is the best podcast I've ever found. I'm in an anxious, avoidant relationship and by me and my partner listening to your podcast and discussing based on them, it helps us learn and understand ourselves and each other more. Since we started doing that, we navigate our relationship with more ease and empathy than before.
0:02:03.65 → 0:02:24.61
Thank you, Stephanie, for making this world a better place. Thank you so much for that lovely review. That brings a big smile to my face and it's very, very heartwarming to know that you've noticed those impacts and, as you say, greater empathy and understanding from the conversations that have flowed from listening together. I really love to hear that. So thank you for sharing.
0:02:24.74 → 0:03:17.58
If that was your review, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my Master classes as a way to say thank you for taking the time. Okay, let's talk about finding the one. So, as I said, I think that we've all been really heavily socialised into believing in this love story, this perfect romance of someone coming to sweep us off our feet, to rescue us from our problems, to save us from our lives. And that there is this perfect person out there that ticks every single box of ours that is desperately attractive and that we have this beautiful chemistry with, but we also have great love and connection and intimacy and we're never going to have any problems with them. And it's all just happy days, happily ever after.
0:03:19.15 → 0:04:06.14
Unfortunately, I think that this sets us up for really unrealistic expectations. Now, I hate to be the one to point this out, but it is so clearly unrealistic that there is a person in this world, one single person, who is perfect for you. The reality is there are probably hundreds of thousands of people in this world that you could happily build a life with. Now, some people might not like that, other people might feel really comforted by it, but I think that there's truth in it. And what that speaks to is the fact that with any partner, we are making a choice and we are making compromises and we are prioritising certain things and probably letting go of other things.
0:04:06.51 → 0:04:44.56
One door opening means closing another door. We can't have everything and we can't be everything to everyone and we can't have everything in one person. So rather than seeing that as a problem, I think we just have to recognise it for what it is and make our peace with it. I think the problem is because we have this conditioning around the fact that there's this perfect person for us and a perfect relationship, and that if we just find that, then we will be saved from all our problems and we won't have to struggle in relationships. I think it leads us to be really doubtful and flighty when issues arise.
0:04:44.62 → 0:05:24.99
So if we've got a good relationship with someone that we love and care for, but it's not perfect, maybe we fight sometimes or maybe we annoy each other or maybe I don't find them attractive. 100% of the time, my brain that has been trained to think that there is this perfect person might start planting these seeds of doubt, these seeds of what if there's some better person out there? What if that kind of grass is greener mentality? And here's the thing, there's always someone better, there's always more, there's always different and we can always keep trading in and trading up. But the bad news is we trade in for someone else.
0:05:25.03 → 0:05:45.54
And guess what? There's someone better than them too, if only you go out and find them. So I think that that's a hamster wheel that is really hard to get off once you're on it. And I really wouldn't encourage you to approach your partner and your relationships with this mentality of what if this isn't the absolute best and perfect partner and person? For me, that's not healthy.
0:05:45.60 → 0:06:25.51
And it really prevents you from showing up to your relationship that you're in with an open heart and in a loving way. So I think that rather than expecting perfection or seeking perfection? Can we create strong, healthy, loving, fun, exciting connection with the person that is in front of us and really remind ourselves that we are choosing and have chosen, and we'll continue to choose them rather than expecting there to. Be this elusive, the one who is going to require no effort and with whom we won't have to face all of our shit in relationship. Because wherever you go, there you are.
0:06:25.58 → 0:07:00.27
All of your stuff is coming with you. Okay? So the other piece of this conversation that I actually think is more interesting is I think that most of us can can realise and recognise that the idea of the One is probably unrealistic. But something that came to me as I was thinking about this episode was maybe we want to believe in the idea of the one there being this one for us because we want to believe that we are the one for someone else. So maybe it's not even so much about wanting to find the perfect partner but maybe it's wanting to believe that someone will see us as perfect.
0:07:00.47 → 0:07:57.09
Maybe it's wanting to believe that someone, we just have to find them, will see us and bow down at our feet and put us on a pedestal and think that we are just the most spectacular thing to ever grace this earth and we'll worship the ground that we walk on. And maybe that very unworthy, insecure part of us can't handle the idea that the person we're in relationship with could similarly be compromising in some respects by being with us. That they could see us as imperfect, that they could see us as flawed, that they could find us irritating from time to time and that they could be actively choosing us in the way that we are actively choosing them. We want to believe that we are indispensable to someone, that someone couldn't live without us, that we are their everything. And so we hold on to this idea of the one more so because we want to be that to someone else.
0:07:57.24 → 0:09:06.18
And I think that if that's resonating for you, if you're nodding along, if dots are being connected in your brain as you're hearing me talk, maybe that's coming from an insecure place, a place that is afraid that we're not enough as we are, the imperfect wholeness of us. And so we want to believe that there's someone out there who doesn't see us in that way, who doesn't see us as imperfect, someone who sees us as perfect as the one for them. And so if that's bringing things up for you, this idea that your partner could be, quote unquote, settling by being with you and I don't mean that in a negative way if you've heard me speak about settling before, I actually think it's just terrible advice, this idea of never settle. I think that we're all settling in some ways because as I've said, no one's perfect. It's really about choosing the person that you want to ebb and flow with through this life, who can be your companion, who you feel loved and cared for and respected by, and who you are willing to ride through the storms with, rather than seeking out
0:09:06.20 → 0:09:12.01
this perfect person with whom you will experience eternal blue skies and calm seas.
0:09:12.51 → 0:09:54.95
That's been a bit of a rambly episode with various musings on the idea of the one, but I hope it's given you something to reflect on and think about this question of what is it about the idea of there being a person out there for me who is perfect, who I don't have to struggle with in any way, who allows me to bypass the messy, raw humanness of relationships. And what is it about the idea of being the one for someone else that is attractive to me? And what does that protect me from? Or what vulnerability does that allow me to bypass by holding onto this idea that I am the one for someone else? If you've enjoyed this episode, as always, super grateful.
0:09:55.03 → 0:10:10.00
If you can leave a rating or a review on Spotify, you can also leave a little question or a comment underneath the episode itself. Otherwise, I look forward to seeing you again next week, and I hope you have a beautiful rest of your day. Thanks, guys.
0:10:12.37 → 0:10:34.42
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here, and I hope to see you again soon.