Helping Men Thrive in Life & Relationships with Connor Beaton
In today's episode, I'm talking with NY-based coach, teacher and speaker, Connor Beaton about the challenges men are facing in our modern society. Connor and I talk through how understanding the experience of men better, we can cultivate healthier relationships and happier and more fulfilled lives.
WHAT WE’LL COVER:
Numbing out pain from childhood and using unhealthy coping mechanisms
Stopping the cycle of running away from yourself
What it looks like inside a relationship when men are lacking confidence & competence
How vulnerability can be practised with men
What makes a great relationship
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
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Episode Transcript
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You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg and I'm really glad you're here. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to on Attachment. In today's episode, I'm joined by Connor Beaton, who is the founder of Man Talks.
0:00:34.85 → 0:01:02.94
We're going to be talking all about, as you might have guessed, men in particular. Some of the challenges that are facing men in our modern society, how that shows up in relationships, some guidance for men, and maybe also some guidance for people in relationship with men on understanding that experience a little better so that we can cultivate healthier relationships, happier and more fulfilling lives. So, Connor, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. You bet.
0:01:02.99 → 0:01:30.55
Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. So you've just released a book which is super exciting. Congratulations. I wonder if maybe we could kick off by you sharing a little bit of your own story as you do in the book, how you came into this work and your experience of, as you described it, I think hitting rock bottom and the come to Jesus moment that that presented for you.
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If you're open to sharing a little bit with the listeners and giving them a bit of context for how you came to be where you are, I think that'd be great. Yeah, they got to buy the book to hear the story. No, I mean, one of the things I just want to know before I even say any of that, is that it's very common for us as men to have bought into this notion that we need to bottom out in order for things to change. And I see a lot of guys out there who can tell that they're on this downward trajectory towards imploding their marriage or destroying their business or their health or friendship or family relationships, whatever it is. Part of the reason why I do this work and wrote this book was I wanted to give guys a kind of resource that they could do the work in, because I think maybe, if you haven't noticed, not every man is open to therapy.
0:02:29.73 → 0:03:29.39
And so the book is kind of like a way for them to dive deep into some type of work that doesn't require them to go sit in therapy for weeks, months or years. My journey was one where I really did know that I was moving towards a rock bottom. If you had met me at the time, on the outside it looked like I was living a great life. I had wonderful relationship, I had a good career, I was travelling the world, I had the motorcycle and the Mustang, which at the time seemed very important to me. Maybe not the choice of cars that people would ultimately go with, but I had the things I had acquired and built a life that I thought presented me as a man in a certain way, presented this sort of air of accomplishment and success and hoped that along with that would come happiness.
0:03:29.73 → 0:04:32.58
And the challenge was that when I got there, having this career, travelling the world and having this relationship, I was still miserable. And a lot of that was because behind the scenes I had these we'll call them sort of the fancy term is maladaptive coping mechanisms. But I had these addictive behaviours that I had going on infidelity cheating in my relationship, using alcohol, substances, pornography, and I was very much out of control and I was out of control because I didn't like who I was. And I didn't like who I was because in many ways I had experienced a lot of pain and hurt in childhood that I didn't know how to deal with and no one had really shown me what to do with that pain and hurt as a young man, as an adult. And so I tried to deal with that pain and hurt by numbing it out, by drinking excessively or smoking weed or whatever it was.
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And so I came into this work because that way of being wasn't workable for me anymore. And the lack of self respect and self love and self appreciation that I had for myself really brought me into some dark places and it caused me to sort of destroy everything that was going on in my life. My relationship fell apart. She found out that I was cheating on her, that I had cheated on her multiple times and I tried to talk my way out of it and it didn't work for a good reason and thank God it didn't. And I was questioning leaving my career and sort of all of these things came imploding in at one time and I didn't want to tell anybody.
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I sort of bought into this, what I call in the book the one rule of men, which is when you're struggling, when you're suffering, just don't talk about it. It's kind of like the first rule of Fight Club which is you don't talk about Fight Club. Right? So I had bought into this notion that if I was struggling I need to figure it out by myself and that if I was struggling as a man that there was something inherently wrong with me. And so there was a lot of shame, there was a lot of self loathing.
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Yeah, I was really in a bad place. And when I came out of the other side of that, after living out of the back of my car for a few weeks, not telling people what was going on, kind of in denial of what was happening, I started to connect with other men in my life. I connected with my mentor and a couple of things happened. One, I started to sort of be greeted by men in my life. When I would open up and tell them what had been going on, they reciprocated.
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So, just a sort of brief aside like I read about in the book after my rock bottom having a conversation with a friend of mine who I had gone to university with and I'd known sort of everything about. And I opened up and I said, here's what's been going on, here's how I've been struggling. Here's what's really been going on behind the scenes that you haven't known about the infidelities and the pornography and the drug use and all this kind of stuff. And well, there wasn't a tonne of drug use. It was mostly alcohol.
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But I opened up and told him what had been going on, and I shared pretty openly. And he paused and thanked me for my capacity to just sort of be real about what was transpiring and proceeded to share with me that he had been struggling with depression for a number of months and hadn't talked about it. And that it had gotten so bad that he had tried to take his own life. And in that moment, I really was sort of dumbstruck by this glaring notion. I thought I knew everything about this guy.
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I knew the type of women he liked to date, I knew the type of scotch he liked to drink and the video games he liked to play. I knew all of that. But I didn't know that he had been struggling so much that he had tried to take his own life. And he knew everything about me, minus the fact that I was completely out of control behind the scenes and that I had been having affairs and getting drunk by myself and all this sort of ridiculous stuff, that I had really been cratering myself in my life and self destructing. And so that got me very present to the fact that maybe I should just sort of say as a caveat that I started to see that happening in many of my conversations with many of the men in my life, where I told them what I was going through and what was going on and what I was trying to work on.
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And they reciprocated by telling me stuff that they hadn't been talking about marriages that were struggling, affairs that were happening, careers that they were very dissatisfied about, or businesses that were on the brink of falling apart. And I was really struck by how many of the men in my life I had surface level relationships with and that many of us as men had felt this kind of loneliness and isolation because we weren't talking about the real things that were going on behind the scenes. We were all sort of creating this appearance of what we thought we needed to be as men. And I think for good reason. I think society and culture and women and other men still want strong men and so there's a bit of a conundrum that a lot of us as men I found myself at least in of trying to, quote unquote, have my shit together but also being able to talk about where I'm struggling.
0:09:01.85 → 0:09:41.37
So that was one major thing. And then the last thing I'll say is I came into this work because of an elder. Because a man in my life who was in his seventy s I talked to him and tried to get some advice and guidance. And this elder happened to be versed in Union Psychology and Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and NLP and Gestalt and Buddhism and Taoism. And it sort of turned into this apprenticeship style relationship where for two and a half years after my quote unquote rock bottom, I would apprentice with him and learn all of these therapeutic modalities and spiritual modalities.
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And in some ways, it really not only Saved me but put me on a different path and put me On A path where I wanted to be of service to other men who were going through, were on the path towards where I was going or were trying to come out the other side of what I had been through. And not that the details their life needs to look exactly the same, but men who are trying to better themselves in some capacity so maybe that's a little bit of a longer story than was necessary but no, that's great. There are so many pieces there. It sounds like a big part of that reckoning was like honesty with yourself, followed by honesty with others. And it's sort of like stopping that cycle of just running away from yourself, because I think we can all do that to varying capacities, in varying ways, but it's like there's ultimately no running away from yourself in any sustainable way.
0:10:42.83 → 0:11:08.19
Right. It catches up with you. It's like that wherever I go, there I am thing. And that's, I think, why it's so important for us to turn towards all of our shit. Whether that's relational stuff, whether it's low self worth childhood stuff, it's coming with you until you do the work of turning towards it and understanding it and healing it.
0:11:08.31 → 0:11:52.94
I think it'd be really helpful to hear a little more around like what do you see as being and particularly in the context of relationships, what do you see as being the key challenges that men are facing? Whether that's kind of observing from afar or the men that are coming to you, what are the key themes that emerge? Yeah, I mean there's a number of them. I think we're in a very interesting time socially and culturally where men are very much in decline and we can see this right? It's like 41% of college graduates are men so it's a very small percentage comparatively and less men are in the dating field than ever before.
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Right. It's something like 27% of men under the age of 30 either haven't been sexually active or are in a relationship within the last twelve months, compared to 12% of women. You have 32% of men under the age of 29 that are still living at home versus living with a partner. So you have this sort of rise of men checking out from culture and society. And a lot of that is pointing to a couple things which I see happening within the context of relationships.
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So one is there's a lack, I think, of men who are really feeling a sense of competence and coherence around what they contribute to the world, to society, to their friends, to their family, to their relationship. We as men want to have some form of function for the most part, right? We want to have purpose, we want to have meaning, we want to contribute. And I think part of the challenge that a lot of men are facing is that either they're looking out into the culture and they're being told you're not a value, you're not needed, you're not necessary, or they're entering into relationships and they're being told directly or indirectly, I don't need you. And that for most men, reinforces the second piece, which is isolation.
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So a lot of men within relationships, what they're often struggling with and dealing with is a kind of isolation. They might not have a lot of other male friends and so they're over indexing on their intimate relationship, needing that person to really be everything for them, right? Needing them to be their emotional processing centre and help them understand how they're feeling and help them talk about their challenges and help them sort of discuss their dreams and their goals. Or they're isolated in the sense that they refuse to do any of that, right? They won't even go near a heart centred conversation.
0:14:01.41 → 0:14:22.95
They won't even talk about how they're feeling. And so when conflict comes up, they shut down. So those are sort of the high level things. I think what a lot of guys that are coming to me with in the context of the relationship is what I call self leadership. So a lot of men come to work with me because they don't feel like they're leading themselves effectively.
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And so how that's showing up in their relationship? Is there's lots of conflict? They're shutting down a lot. They're very angry and resentful, but they don't know how to communicate it or it's sort of poisoning the waters of their intimacy. They have poor boundaries and they don't know how to stand up for themselves.
0:14:38.92 → 0:15:05.23
And so they're constantly playing into this game of if I just make you happy, then maybe you'll meet my needs. So there's a lot of that happening within the context of relationships. And I think we're also in an interesting time where I think more than ever, men are looking for solutions. I think we're in a time where a lot of men are starting to reflect on how do I develop myself? How do I better myself?
0:15:05.30 → 0:15:41.03
How do I be a better partner or husband or father or leader in general? So those are some of the things that stand out to me. Whether a man is lacking confidence or lacking competence. I think those are two interconnected things where maybe the last thing that I'll say is that and this isn't every man, but I think a lot of men take on the success or the burden of the relationship working. A lot of men gauge their value and their worth based on how the relationship is doing.
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So if the relationship is doing well, that means that he's a success and he's a good man and all is well. If the relationship is doing poorly, then oftentimes a lot of guys and again, this isn't every man, but a lot of men will make it mean that they're a failure and that they're doing something wrong, and it sort of impinges on their sense of self worth. So there's a number of different factors, but I think ultimately it really boils down to how a man is leading himself in the relationship. Is he communicating the way that he wants? Is he having the hard conversations?
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Is he exploring sexually in the way that he wants? Is he being open and honest about what he wants to explore sexually with his partner? Because that can be wildly uncomfortable. Is he doing what's necessary to understand his own internal landscape? Right?
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His own emotions, his own reactivity, his own anger so that it's not infringing on his ability to hear what his partner is going through? So most of the time, that's what a guy's struggling with. There's a great quote by Carl Jung. He said that women stand at the edge of what a man knows about himself. A woman stands where a man's shadow begins.
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And so a lot of the times guys come to me and what's happened is that they have externalised a lot of their power onto their partner and they're trying to figure their partner out. We kind of talk ourselves as men into this notion of, like well, if I just figure you out if I just figure out what I need to fix for you and what I need to give for you and get for you and provide for you. And if I can just figure out how to make you happy, then maybe I'll have a chance at that. And we miss, in that process who we become. We miss our reactivity, we miss our insecurities, we miss our fears, we miss our desires.
0:17:35.38 → 0:18:20.73
We kind of take a backseat in that process. And so what ends up happening is that a man in a relationship will slowly start to isolate in one way or another whether he's isolating his sexual desires, whether he's isolating his boundaries, whether he's isolating his empathy and compassion or his love or his emotionality. But he'll isolate something as a means of I'm protecting you or I'm trying to make sure that you're getting what you want, or I'm trying to make sure that this relationship is just functioning. So those are a few things. Yeah, I think that that dynamic of focusing on the other is a really convenient way to deflect from our own stuff, right?
0:18:20.80 → 0:18:48.34
To bypass our own work. It's like, oh, if I can make you happy, that's my job. But I think the corollary of that, the other side of that coin, is inevitably that not working. And then either me blaming myself or me blaming you, either you're impossible to please, fuck this, it's not worth it. Retreating, isolating or blaming yourself, going into shame and unworthiness and all of the things that go along with that.
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But neither of those are really recipes for healthy relationships. And I think there's just a lot of woundedness going back and forth there. I think that what I see a lot I probably work with. The other side of the equation to you is mostly women and mostly more anxious women who are wanting to grip and control and fix and reach their partner and are probably more often again, not always, but I think there is more of a tendency and there's certainly a trope around it. Anxious woman, avoidant male and that dynamic of poking the bear, of trying to get past the wall.
0:19:31.14 → 0:20:13.77
And I think that what I often see is people who present as more avoidant have a really deep core wound around defectiveness and not being enough, not being successful. That sense of like, nothing I do is enough, and feeling a deep sense of shame and failure. But often that sits a few layers deeper and is covered by a lot of protective stuff. So I think that all of that is very much in alignment with what I see. I think one of the things that came out in that concept of self leadership is like efficacy and men needing to experience their own efficacy.
0:20:13.90 → 0:20:39.70
And again, I think it's true for everyone, but especially probably for men, this sense of purpose and efficacy. Can I experience examples of my own follow through and integrity and discipline? I think that that stuff is nothing short of medicinal for men and in relationships as well. I agree entirely. And I think it's generality, right?
0:20:39.72 → 0:21:19.16
It's a general statement. But I think generally a lot of women underestimate how important competency is for a man to feel like he has a place in your life, to feel like he is doing things right, to feel like he is contributing to you in some way, shape or form. To know and have it validated that he has an inherent value to you as his partner. And we could kind of go into why that is socially. I don't know if that would necessarily be helpful, but I think the one thing that I would say is that for most men.
0:21:20.33 → 0:22:02.58
We know that we have to build some kind of value in our life and that we have to build skills and we have to build character traits that are going to make us appealing as viable partners. And if we don't do that, or if we're riddled by shame or riddled by abuse from childhood that's getting in the way of that or stories that were not enough because we were bullied in school, then it's going to get in the way of our ability to feel like we are able to, in a meaningful way, contribute to your life. Because there is a kind of nourishment that I think most men find in that place.
0:22:05.03 → 0:22:56.12
I just wanted to add that in because I do think that it's oftentimes a very male specific thing, that it's like, I want to have a place in your life and I want to know that I'm contributing value and I want to be recognised for that value. And I want that value to sometimes not only come from me, but to have it be something sacred that's a part of our relationship and our dynamic. And because for a lot of men, they can't get that from anywhere else. A lot of men don't have society and friends and family members telling them, I really value what you bring to the table. I really value how hard you work in this area of your life to whatever it is to put groceries on the table or to drive our kids to soccer or to make sure that the house is always clean or in good order.
0:22:56.89 → 0:23:56.13
That's not really happening in a lot of other places. And so I think what I usually say to couples, regardless of the dynamic, is that appreciation is the currency of intimacy and that you can never underestimate how valuable appreciation truly is for the other person. And one of the things that I usually say to a couple is if you can discover the type and quality and consistency and the sort of specifics of what your partner wants to be valued for and appreciated for, that is a kind of gold that you will be bringing into your relationship. And if two people are willing to do that, to say, here's what I really love being appreciated for. We live on an acreage and it's like five acres and so we have a two year old, so there's diapers everywhere all the time, right?
0:23:56.25 → 0:24:17.34
It smells terrible. But our garbage is way at the end of the driveway, right? And so I have to either walk the garbage all the way down to the thing at the end of the driveway, which is a good, like, 15 minutes excursion, or I have to pile the garbage into the car and take the car to the end of the driveway. Now, my wife hates doing this. Guess what?
0:24:17.39 → 0:24:53.32
I don't enjoy doing it either, but it's something that I undertake. And so just a simple thing, just a simple example. My wife has just made it a point to thank me for doing those types of things because I'm contributing something to the relationship, making our life a little bit easier, taking care of something around the house, and I'm getting it done even though I know that neither of us want to do it. And so it's those types of things that are small and simple, but become the kind of foundational fabric that pulls a relationship together. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
0:24:53.37 → 0:25:31.28
And it's something that in my own life I had to really deliberately unlearn what was modelled to me in terms of I think there can be competitiveness in unhappy marriages. There can be this sense of like me appreciate you when you haven't done X, Y and Z thing and there's all this for growth, right? You're the scorekeeping. And almost this protectiveness or guarding of kindness and appreciation because it hasn't been earned, or there's all of these things outstanding. And if I were to acknowledge the positives, then all of these negatives might not get addressed or they might get overlooked.
0:25:31.34 → 0:26:18.15
And so I think the fear will often drive someone to just keep pointing out all of the things that aren't right, that aren't up to scratch, that still need work. And it's just so counterproductive. Because I think when someone feels like the example that I give, and again, is often in more of that anxious, avoidant dynamic. It can be like if you've asked your partner to do ten things and they do nine, of them. And your focus is on the one that they didn't do and the imperfect part of it, and taking that as evidence of something, of whatever story you're telling yourself about who they are or how much they care about you, or if you really cared about me, you would have done X, or you would have done it better or differently.
0:26:18.81 → 0:27:01.71
It's just like sometimes we need to step back from our own agenda, and particularly if we notice that part of ourselves that's resistant to showing appreciation, to voicing that, and going like, what am I gatekeeping here? And Why? Well, part of me is reluctant to be loving. What am I afraid would happen if I voiced my appreciation freely? I think the thing you'll hear a lot is like, I shouldn't have to thank my partner for doing basic things and I get where it's coming from and I think it's something we've got to get a little curious about because I don't know what it's in service of.
0:27:01.83 → 0:27:13.12
I hear that all the time. I shouldn't have to thank my partner for basic things. It's like, no, you just don't want to. And there's a big difference because you do have to, right? You do have to, you just don't want to.
0:27:13.22 → 0:27:53.78
And when you start to get clear on why it is that you don't want to, and what you're actually withholding from the relationship and what might be possible. I think in a lot of cases I shouldn't need to, which is, as I've said, is I don't want to. And it's usually I don't want to because then I might be recognising something that you're doing, right. I might be recognising what you are actually doing. And when I recognise that, it might actually override this unhelpful story that you never do enough or you're not doing what I want you to, or whatever it is, the story is that's being held by that individual.
0:27:54.23 → 0:28:38.98
And so, yeah, usually when I hear people say that, my response is, you do need to, and you probably need to, maybe more than anybody else, because there's a natural resistance and rejection of it. And I think I hesitate to go down this route, but I'm going to do it anyways. We'll just see where this goes. But I think in our modern culture, a lot of women have been sold this bill of goods of you shouldn't need a man and you should be everything for yourself. And that sort of becomes problematic in a relationship where you just don't have space for a man to even contribute to you.
0:28:39.99 → 0:29:18.27
And I get it to a certain degree. Like, my wife is a badass, and she's built a huge business, and she's wildly successful, and I love her. And I'm her biggest cheerleader, I'm her biggest fan, and I'm her biggest supporter. But she still does a great job of being able to say, here's where the way that you contribute to me is invaluable where I can't find that anywhere else. And to say something like that, or to acknowledge something like that, is to put ourselves in a position of vulnerability and it is to put ourselves into a position of admission of love, of appreciation.
0:29:18.61 → 0:29:58.98
And I think that oftentimes that's a very challenging place to be for anybody. And so I think there's sometimes an avoidance of that because it feels uncomfortable to be in this more soft space that's actually admitting, I enjoy leaning on you, I enjoy you taking care of these things for me. I remember my wife and I had a conversation in the beginning of our relationship where I was taking care of a few things in our relationship that other partners hadn't for her. And it was a very challenging thing. We had a couple of conversations where I was like, why won't you recognise me for this?
0:29:59.08 → 0:30:33.08
And she's like, I don't know, I hadn't really thought about it. And then, because she's very reflective and very wise, she came back and she said, you know, it's actually very uncomfortable for me to admit that I enjoy that and it's very uncomfortable for me to be in a position of feeling taken care of in the way that you take care of me. Because she had grown up, only child, Division One lacrosse player, first chair, violin in the orchestra. Top of her class, built her business. She's really crushed it.
0:30:34.89 → 0:31:24.02
But to be taken care of in the way that I was is to sort of be in this position that she had never been in before. And so I think that that's very challenging for some folks. So I know I kind of path, but no, I think it's a really insightful path, and I completely agree with you, and I really resonate with all of that challenge in your relationship. Sort of for myself, I think that learning to receive when you've been really, really good at doing it all for yourself, you've had your own competence, kind of nurtured, and that's been part of your modus operandi. It's like, oh, wait, if I can let down my guard and actually allow myself to be supported and held and received, that's an intensely vulnerable thing to do if it's not what you used to.
0:31:24.07 → 0:32:05.31
And for myself in my current relationship. That's been a very healing thing for me, I think by contrast to a previous relationship where I wasn't able to do that. I think part of it was definitely my stuff, but part of it was not trusting in the steadiness of my partner and not trusting in his dependability and his reliability and probably his integrity enough to kind of lay down the guard and go, okay, I can lean on you. So I think it's both, right? It's how much of it's my stuff, how much of it is you not being a safe person for me to really kind of relax into.
0:32:05.48 → 0:32:37.51
But I think that if you can find that dynamic, it's deeply nourishing on both sides. I think it really is. Yeah. I think we often, with the rise of the therapeutic industry in our modern culture, where everything has sort of become pathologized and therapeutic speak, has entered into mainstream culture in a way that is just unheard of before. I find that the majority of people are convinced that they know exactly what they want.
0:32:37.68 → 0:33:35.05
And to me, it removes the mystery of romance and love and intimacy, because the truth about a really good romantic intimacy and relationship is that it's going to evoke what you need, which oftentimes is not what you thought. But we have this kind of arrogance and omnipotence that we adopt that says, I know exactly what I need and I know exactly what I want. And there's no room to say maybe I actually don't know everything that I need and want in a relationship. And maybe I can leave some room for awe and wonder and surprise for somebody to show up and maybe be providing for me or contributing to me or loving me in a way that I didn't even know that I needed. But if we're so busy telling them, this is exactly how you should love me and this is exactly what I need all the time, there's just no room for that.
0:33:35.22 → 0:34:11.38
But that's kind of sometimes what I find the therapeutic space on Instagram and social media really selling. And I think that it's really unfortunate for the truth of intimacy, which is often wildly uncomfortable and unknown and mysterious and awe invoking and whimsical. And when we can allow for some of that, then we can get what we need in a way that we hadn't expected. And I know that there's caveats to that trauma and PTSD and abusive relationships. I know that there's trauma.
0:34:11.49 → 0:34:24.32
I know that there's caveats to what I'm saying. Sometimes we really do need to speak. I can hear people like, wow, what about abuse? What about that? Yes, I know all those things, and I agree.
0:34:24.71 → 0:34:58.63
Yes. Yeah, I agree. I think that it is it is the unfortunate byproduct of Instagram and social media and like, that we all lean on so much for this work, but there are constraints of the format and constraints of communicating things in short form that you miss the nuance and the mess. You talk about the mystery of relationships. I find so much people coming to me, and you just see the fear in the question, is it like, is it this or this?
0:34:58.67 → 0:35:40.02
Is it me or them? That's the problem. How do I know if and it's just like this really rigid, like, I need to know the answer so that I can figure out the solution, so that I can stop myself from getting hurt. And so I think we have to look at our relationship to control and trust, self trust and trust of the other, because I think we can only really allow ourselves to ride in that mystery and really flow with it to the extent that we trust ourselves to be with whatever arises and wherever it takes us. Because when we don't have that self trust, we need to have a plan for every possible scenario so that we're braced for it.
0:35:40.07 → 0:36:17.36
But I think that that can become a real self fulfilling prophecy, because when we're bracing for the pain or bracing for the hurt or the betrayal or the abandonment or the rejection, we lead with that. And we're so guarded from the outset, we're preparing, if I say this, they're going to say that, and then I'll say this, and lo and behold, that's the exact conversation we have. So I think that kind of going to our relationships with curiosity and openness. It is a portal to much greater, deeper intimacy. I agree entirely.
0:36:17.42 → 0:36:40.77
Well said. Something that I really liked in your book was talking about vulnerability. And you spoke about vulnerability as when women in particular say they want men to be more vulnerable, it's not just, I want you to be more emotional. It's like, I want to know that you're aware. I thought that was a really great distinction.
0:36:40.90 → 0:37:18.64
I remember seeing a clip of John Weiland a few years ago talking about awareness and how that was such an attractive trait for men to possess and for women to perceive in men, it's like, I'm self aware. I'm aware of you and what's going on with you, the impact of my behaviour on you. I'm kind of environmentally relationally aware. And I think that that's just so astute. I think that without most people wouldn't be able to put words to that, but I think if you said it to them, they'd be like, yes, that is what I'm looking for.
0:37:18.66 → 0:37:47.68
I'm looking to know that you are aware and that I can trust you, that you are in control of yourself, that you are able to self regulate, able to carry yourself. Because if you're not aware, then I feel like I have to be aware for you. And that scares me. Could you speak a little more about that? Yeah, I mean, in a very simple sense, a man who is unaware of what he's experiencing or a man who won't admit to what he's experiencing is a dangerous man.
0:37:47.81 → 0:38:17.03
Yeah, right. It's plain and simple and dangerous in the sense that for a woman that's hard to be around. When a woman is around a man who she can sense and kind of knows you're angry right now, and that man isn't willing to admit, yes, I'm angry, or yes, I'm feeling this way, that's scary, right? That's just plain and simple, right? I mean, I'm six two, my wife is five eight.
0:38:17.07 → 0:38:29.62
I'm 200 pounds. Right? She's not. And so just that natural dynamic. I mean, I can imagine being around a dude that's like six foot six and 300 pounds and I'm like, Are you angry?
0:38:29.65 → 0:38:31.36
And he's like, no, I'm fine.
0:38:33.81 → 0:39:01.62
I can tell that he's pissed. It's like, well, that doesn't feel safe, right? It just doesn't feel safe, plain and simple. If you just remove all the dynamics and make it very logical. And so I think we as men, often we hear this conversation about vulnerability and there's this huge push I think I wrote about in the book the Myth of Male Vulnerability, this notion that we as men are just inundated with these messages, you need to be more vulnerable.
0:39:01.68 → 0:39:33.77
And it doesn't even really seem to matter what the prognosis is or what the challenge or the problem is that a man is facing the solution. And the medicine that is delivered to him always seems to be you just need to be more vulnerable. And I think it's garbage. I think that there is a time and place for a man to be vulnerable, but I think that most men know that there is an inherent risk to them being vulnerable. If you are vulnerable in the wrong way with a relationship, that might end it.
0:39:33.86 → 0:40:02.91
And that's just true. And we as men know that because if I'm in the beginning of a relationship with a woman and I'm building rapport with her and something happens in my life and I break down about it and am completely dysregulated and sort of beside myself about it, and she's having to care for me. That can shift the dynamic of the relationship immediately. And men know that. So men, we kind of know that.
0:40:02.94 → 0:40:44.34
We don't know if we're going to get rejected or if we're going to have our experience shut down or if that's going to impact the intimacy within the relationship. So I think it's a very challenging thing for men to find the balance of. But what I do know is that oftentimes what women are actually saying is not that I just want you to open up and cry all the time, or I want you to tell me how sad and depressed you are. Or I want you to inundate me daily with how overwhelmed you are with work or how much you hate your job. What I actually want is some indication of that, you know, what's happening inside of you.
0:40:44.52 → 0:41:21.94
Because that shows me that you have a certain level of awareness. You feel more safe when you're able to do that. And you're in charge, not in control, but you're in charge of what's happening inside of you. So you're taking responsibility and ownership as a man over I feel a lot of anger, or I feel pressed lately, or I have a lot of anxiety coming up, or I really am struggling with whatever it is job, work, friends, mom, dad, et cetera. So that's I think the kind of vulnerability that a lot of men are being asked to do.
0:41:22.07 → 0:42:02.00
And I think that the more depth oriented emotional processing that seems to get talked about in modern culture is something that men need to practise amongst other men because it's not a natural for most guys. It's not like second nature, just being very open and vulnerable about how they're feeling about having been in a sexless marriage for two years. It doesn't feel natural for a lot of men to open up and say, here's how I've been struggling behind the scenes. And we can talk about, well, how do we change culture and how do we make it more natural? And all those types of things.
0:42:02.05 → 0:42:32.28
But that's a very complex dialogue. So I think the more direct thing speaking directly to men is when you're able to step into owning what your direct felt experience is. Meaning, what are you actually experiencing directly in the moment in your body? Heat, frustration, anger, confusion, anxiety, coldness, et cetera. Like, what's actually going on inside of you.
0:42:32.30 → 0:42:58.78
When you're able to identify that for yourself and communicate some of it to your partner, you are displaying the type of vulnerability that most women are asking for. Right? You're saying, I know how I feel right now. You're right. I am feeling angry, or, yeah, you know, I feel kind of ashamed that I forgot to do that, or I feel embarrassed about this thing that happened, and I don't need you to fix it for me.
0:42:58.80 → 0:43:22.63
I don't need you to solve it for me. I want you to know that that's what's going on. And that in itself, for most women is going to be like a big sigh. It's like, okay, you can recognise. And the bonus, the sort of icing on the cake is when a man is able to say, and I have the resources in my life to go and work through this or deal with this.
0:43:22.67 → 0:44:08.77
I have good men in my life that I can bring this problem to or this challenge to, to discuss, to feel through, to explore, et cetera. And it's not that we can't do that in our relationship, but again, the majority of men over index on their relationship to be that space where they bring their internal world. And for most men, it's a sign that there's a wound with the masculine, there's a wound with men that they don't trust men to bring their challenges, to bring their hardship, to bring their emotions, their hurt, their pain. It's why the first line in my book is a man's work begins in pain. It begins with your pain as a man and beginning to understand it.
0:44:08.94 → 0:44:26.88
So yeah, maybe I'll pause there. Yeah. When you say that for a lot of women, hearing that kind of like, I know what's going on for me and I've got this, here's how I'm feeling. I think this might be what that's about and I'm going to take care of it in this way. And it's just like and it is.
0:44:26.93 → 0:45:19.50
And I think that that goes back to this over functioning thing that a lot of women have developed to keep themselves protected or just because that's kind of how we've been socialised in recent times, to be able to do everything and take care of ourselves and take care of other people. But at the same time, something I see all the time and I relate to is like this deep and visceral fear of having to do that forever. And so it's both. It's like I can do it and that's like that's my default and that's where I'll go that's comfortable for me, to take responsibility for you and try and micromanage you and do the psychoanalysis for you and try and do your emotional processing for you and suggest what you might need. But at the same time, I'm terrified of having to do that because the thing that comes up is like, who's going to do that for me?
0:45:19.60 → 0:45:57.44
That's right. If if I'm always the supporter and the carer, then there is a part of me that's terrified that I'm going to be alone or kind of emotionally abandoned if and when it's my turn to need support. Or perhaps I'll just never let myself be in need of support because I don't trust in your ability to hold me there. So again, it's this thing of like, there's stuff on both sides there and it can be really painful or it can be really healing to step back. And I think for women, there is a level of needing to step back.
0:45:58.05 → 0:46:16.58
Something that I'd be interested in your take on is like, who goes first on that? Do you think it's just like dependent on the relationship? Does the man have to step up and prove himself trustworthy? Does the woman need to step back and give him the space to do that? Is there a better view there, or is it just going to depend on the relationship?
0:46:17.35 → 0:46:50.30
Yeah, I think a lot of it is relationship dependent, but I work predominantly with men and then sometimes with couples. And so my pathway is always through men. And so I always like to say, guys, you have to sort of take the step first because that's right. The notion that if I can signal to you that I know what's going on inside of me, I have that awareness. I have the tools and the resources to traverse that right.
0:46:50.35 → 0:47:34.79
My anger, my frustration, my shame, my disappointment, whatever it might be about in my life, then I'm sending a signal to my partner saying, I know how to do this for myself, and so I can also do it for you. And there's a really deep attraction to that. I think I look at a lot of the, again, the therapeutic content, the dating, coaching content that's out there on Instagram and social media, facebook and TikTok and that kind of stuff. And really, that's what a lot of it is advocating for, quote unquote, holding space. Well, how is a man to know how to hold space for his partner if he has no idea how to be with his own emotional intensity?
0:47:34.92 → 0:48:00.79
How is he supposed to do that? So there's all of this content that's out there trying to tell guys, here's how you hold space for your partner, here's how you understand what they're experiencing, here's how you move through conflict. And it's like, well, that guy probably has no clue in the first place. Not that it's all men, right? I'm not bashing in any way, shape or form, but that guy might not understand how to deal with his own emotional intensity.
0:48:01.21 → 0:48:42.93
And so if he doesn't know how to be with his nervous system in the first place and the charge that might happen when he's around somebody else's intensity, sadness, grief, anger, frustration, et cetera, then the moment that he steps into the arena of, okay, I'm going to hold some space for you. I want to hear what you have to say. I want to have this hard conversation or hear about what happened with your day. His nervous system is going to light up like a Christmas tree, and he's going to become dysregulated and maybe reactive and defensive or try and solve the problem. And so I think one of the greatest gifts that we as men can give the world is to understand how to regulate and ground ourselves.
0:48:43.51 → 0:49:24.53
And because the world in some ways it still is a dangerous place and life is very, very hard and so are intimate relationships counter to what Disney might have sold you. Right. It's very challenging. And so we as men, when we have done the work, to be grounded, to have a certain amount of self awareness, to be able to regulate our own internal state, that is something so wildly appealing to women or to anybody, because we all know how hard that is. Everybody knows how hard that is.
0:49:24.64 → 0:49:51.29
Right? To stay grounded, to be regulated, to be able to go into a conflict and stay solid and hear the other person, and to tune into your own internal state, it is incredibly difficult and it's why it is so attractive and appealing. And that's what I see a lot of the content advocating for the sort of subtext to it is like, I just want a man who is grounded and emotionally solid.
0:49:53.95 → 0:50:16.43
That's the beginning of the work. Yeah, totally. I think that's so spot on. It's like how could I ever feel safe with your emotions if my impulse, when my own arise is to make them go away as quickly as possible? Of course, if that's my baseline, then I'm going to try and fix or solve or react or defend against yours because I see those things as inherently threatening.
0:50:16.59 → 0:50:53.93
My radar is going like, oh, like anger or sadness or whatever else is not a safe thing to have in my environment, then I'm going to try and make it go away. And so I think you're right. It has to start with kind of recalibrating our own relationship to those things in order that we can be with them without automatically going to those protective mechanisms. That relationally. If you're on the receiving end of that, it just feels like a denial or that kind of emotional abandonment or you're not really seeing me.
0:50:54.13 → 0:51:12.10
Yeah, well, I think that both people have a role and a responsibility in it. And I think it's oftentimes what we do is we enter into this with those types of questions. I hear I get all those DMs all the time. Right? It's like, well, should he be doing this first or should I do this first?
0:51:14.07 → 0:51:57.97
I do think that both people have a responsibility. I think in some ways what men are often looking for from their female partners is an acknowledgment of when it is going right. That appreciation that I was talking about before, the acknowledgment of when a man has stayed grounded, has been able to hold space, has been able to have the tough conversation and that little amount of appreciation cannot be underestimated. I think that's part of it. But the other part is to give that man some space in order to get it wrong, in order to fail.
0:51:58.47 → 0:52:14.06
I usually tell men, you can't criticise or complain your way into more sex. And what I usually say to women is you can't criticise and complain your way to more emotional connection. It just doesn't work. Right. It shuts down the conversation.
0:52:14.17 → 0:52:37.11
And yet this is the tactic that so many men and so many women take in relationships, right? It's like, I want more sex and so I'm going to criticise you and complain about it. And for a lot of women, it's like, Well, I want more emotional connection, or maybe it's, I want more sex. Right. They can both apply to both genders, but we use criticism and complaints as a means of trying to get our needs met and just never works.
0:52:37.20 → 0:53:06.13
So the best thing we can do is create a little bit of space and reinforce what's working. Well, yeah, totally. I mean, I think to go back to kind of like a safety thing, if if this person's emotionally disconnected from me because anything else doesn't feel safe, then, like, telling them how wrong and bad they are is not going to be the thing. Like, that create the soil in which that safety and the connection is going to grow. It's just the complete opposite of what we need.
0:53:06.17 → 0:53:29.28
I always imagine, like a tortoise retracting into its shell and then just sort of like beating on the shell and saying, come out. It's not going to work. Right. It's the opposite. It's like, how can I contribute to your experience of safety in this relationship and trust that from there we'll grow in connection together rather than, how can I force you to show up the way I want you to so that I feel better about things?
0:53:30.93 → 0:53:54.37
It takes a lot of kind of emotional maturity and personal responsibility to step back from our own agenda and look at the relationship more holistically. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's easy for us to love the parts of our partner that we already love. And it's hard for us to love the parts of them that we wish were different and learning.
0:53:54.57 → 0:54:35.32
I had a very wise mentor. I've had the grace and the fortune of having a number of them, but one of them said, acceptance without love is hollow. And so oftentimes we see these hard parts of our partner, maybe they're a little bit more reactive than we'd like them to be or they shut down easily, or whatever the case may be. And at first we buck against it and we might criticise them and try and get them to change and then we move into a place of, well, maybe I'll just accept this, but that acceptance is holding hands with, I don't like it, I'll tolerate this shit. I bet it judgement.
0:54:35.48 → 0:54:58.06
That's right. It's not hand in hand with, I accept this because I'm learning to love your flaws and fallibility and what a gift that is to another human being to say, I see that you're struggling with this. I see that you're working on this. I see that this is a challenge, and I love this part of you anyway.
0:55:00.83 → 0:55:20.78
And sometimes we need that. Sometimes we as human beings, we really do need that. And we need somebody to believe in us, sometimes more than we believe in ourselves. And we need somebody to love the hard parts of us that we haven't figured out how to love yet. I mean, that is just the truth of human nature, fortunately, or unfortunately.
0:55:20.92 → 0:56:18.52
And I think one of the things that my wife and I have always tried to do, whether it's in our work with couples or in our work in our own relationship, is to bring ourselves closer to being able to love those parts of one another that we are struggling with, that we can see that the other person is having a hard time accepting. Now, of course, there's boundaries within that, and that happens within reason, and it's not letting the other person get away with all kinds of nonsense that is diminishing their relationship. But it's really looking at, how can I love this part of my partner that I can see that they're struggling with and that I'm struggling to accept. And when we can make that part of our mission of love, part of our mission of intimacy, part of our mission of a relationship, things will naturally start to change. Because maybe I'll just share a quick example.
0:56:19.29 → 0:56:52.16
I remember my wife tells this story, and so I'm telling it because she's told it where we were in a conflict in the beginning of our relationship. We'd been dating for like, seven or eight months, and I don't remember what the conflict was about or what we were actually in an argument about, but she was really coming at me, and she was trying to prove a point, and she wasn't letting it go. And she was fiery and fierce, and she was really coming at me. And I kept saying to her, I got it. I understand.
0:56:52.77 → 0:57:00.82
I got it. You're right. And she just kept coming at me. And finally I just said, Can I pause you for a moment? And she said, Fine.
0:57:01.59 → 0:57:20.62
And I said, Are you hearing that? I've got what you're saying? And she's like, yes. I'm like, oh, okay. Well, can I just tell you that even though you're really pissed off right now that I still love you, and even though you're trying to battle me right now, that I still love you and that I do hear what you're saying?
0:57:21.15 → 0:58:00.85
And she just sat there for a moment. I could see it was like a good hit to the heart in a way. And she just started crying, and she was, like, disarming, and she was just like the way that she described it after was I felt like I was being so unlovable. I could hear myself not letting it go, trying to prove the point, getting in your face, almost attacking you verbally and coming at you and all this stuff, and you just held your ground and reminded me that I was loved. And in the moment where I felt like I was unlovable, you loved me anyways.
0:58:00.93 → 0:58:21.89
And she's done that for me dozens of times, countless times. And that's the practise. Can I love you in the moments when you're being unlovable and again, not abusive, right? Not trauma inducing or anything like that, but just the everyday shit that we all fall into. Can I love you in those moments?
0:58:21.94 → 0:58:45.47
And that's the game. And if you can play that game in a relationship, you'll find a depth within the relationship that is unparamount. It really is. It's just not found anywhere else because you'll be on an adventure with somebody who's willing to love the hard parts of you alongside your journey and trying to figure that shit out. So well said.
0:58:45.67 → 0:58:58.30
Just to wrap up quickly, what do you think makes a great relationship? As I say, just to wrap up quickly, we could probably do a whole hour on that question, but what would be the headline for you on what makes a great relationship?
0:59:01.23 → 0:59:30.27
I think it's a lot of what I said before, but what I usually again, I'm going to use the lens that I usually say to men, but I think it's applicable to everybody, which is find someone that you can do conflict with. And it sounds counterintuitive, but it's the thing that most people don't look for, right? Most of us are looking for the great love and the amazing sex that blows our mind that we're thinking about for days after. And great, look for all those things. Right.
0:59:30.31 → 0:59:47.28
Have all whatever ingredients you're looking for in a great relationship. Look for those things. Don't let go of them, but see if you can find somebody that you're willing to go through conflict with. I said this to my wife last night. Literally last night, I hugged her.
0:59:47.30 → 1:00:07.76
And I said, because we've been talking about moving and it's a very challenging conversation, there's a lot of pieces involved. And I hugged her and I kissed her on the cheek. And I said, there is no one else in life that I would rather go through hardship with. And I think that that's the essence of it that we often miss out on. Because fucking life is hard, man.
1:00:09.57 → 1:00:41.19
Raising kids, losing parents, your own health, finances, the economy, whatever the hell is happening in North America right now, it's a shit show. It's hard. And so if you can find somebody that you oftentimes, maybe not always, but you can oftentimes enjoy going through that hardship with, I think that that's just such a gift. Yeah, couldn't agree more. I often say to people, it's like, find a person with whom the hard stuff brings you together rather than divides you.
1:00:41.23 → 1:00:56.17
I think that is really like a hallmark of a great relationship. It's like when. Life gets hard, as it inevitably will? Do we band together and make each other stronger? Or does that divide us and turn us into enemies or competitors?
1:00:56.77 → 1:01:09.22
I think that's very telling. Yeah. And can both people commit to that? I think that's the other caveat, right? That both people actually need to commit to that way of being within the relationship and that value within the relationship.
1:01:09.99 → 1:01:27.14
Totally. Connor, thank you so much. This has been such a beautiful conversation. I really think that for a lot of people, it's probably stuff that they've not really delved into before this whole topic of men's work and men's challenges. And I think it's a really important conversation now more than ever.
1:01:27.19 → 1:01:46.09
So thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationship, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com.
1:01:46.21 → 1:01:55.84
And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.