How to Talk About Sex with Vanessa & Xander Marin
In today's episode, I'm joined by Vanessa & Xander Marin. She’s a sex therapist with 20 years of experience, he’s a regular dude, and they recently co-authored their first book Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life, which became an instant NYT bestseller.
WHAT WE COVER:
the five conversations you need to be having about sex
navigating mismatched libido & (perceived) sexual rejection in relationships
how emotional intimacy (or lack thereof) impacts sexual intimacy
what to do when sex becomes a heavy, high-pressure topic in your relationship
how to bring back fun, play & lightness to your sex life
Follow Vanessa & Xander on Instagram @vanessaandxander, and tune in to their podcast, Pillow Talks, for totally do-able sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more.
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Apply for my 6-month Homecoming Mastermind
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
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Episode Transcript
0:00:00.41 → 0:00:37.34
You're listening to On Attachment, a place to learn about how attachment shapes the way we experience relationships and where you'll gain the guidance, knowledge, and practical tools to overcome insecurity and build healthy, thriving relationships. I'm your host, relationship Coach Stephanie Rigg, and I'm really glad you're here. You hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm joined by Vanessa and Xander Marin, and we are here to talk all about sex.
0:00:37.53 → 0:00:49.49
So, Vanessa and Xander, welcome. It is great to have you. Thanks for having us. Yeah, we're excited to be here. So you guys have just recently released a book, Sex Talks, which is an instant New York Times bestseller.
0:00:49.54 → 0:01:24.24
Congratulations. Thank you. Super exciting. And I think today we can go into a lot of that what you guys cover in the book and more broadly, conversations around sex and where we can get stuck sexually, why we can get stuck sexually and what we can do to sort of take matters back into our own hands and not feel like sex is this big, scary thing that sits outside of our control and that then feeds all of this shame and stigma and aloneness. Because I think it can feel pretty lonely when we're in that place.
0:01:24.34 → 0:01:45.24
Absolutely. I'd love to hear from you. Just to start off, why do you think it is that we can struggle so much to talk about sex? And I think sometimes it feels like it's harder to talk about our partner, the person that we love and care about and know most deeply. It's actually harder to talk to them about sex than maybe someone that you just met.
0:01:45.34 → 0:02:27.29
I think it's hard for us to talk about sex because we really don't have any examples. I mean, if you think about every sex scene that you see in the movies, on TV, you never see characters talking to each other about the sex that they're having or not having with each other. And when we see that exact same sort of scene repeated over and over again throughout our lifetimes, of course we're going to internalise this belief that we shouldn't have to talk about it. It's supposed to just unfold naturally and effortlessly. So when we get into our own sex lives and there are things that we want to communicate with, we struggle because we just have this feeling that we're not supposed to have to.
0:02:27.44 → 0:02:54.81
And furthermore, if you think back, do you have any good examples of having non awkward conversations about sex in your life? For most of us, our very first example or first conversation we ever had about sex was the talk with our parents. And usually that doesn't go particularly well. You can pick up on the fact that your parents feel super awkward about this topic. It feels embarrassing, it feels shameful.
0:02:54.86 → 0:03:21.59
Or maybe they don't even have the conversation with you because they're too embarrassed to even bring it up. And as kids, we pick up on stuff like that. And so our first experiences tend to be, oh, this is a topic that we tend to avoid. Sex is obviously important. It's something that we all want to do, but we don't have that experience of talking about it, so we just try to figure out how to do it without actually communicating about it.
0:03:21.76 → 0:04:10.95
Yeah, totally. I think that, as you say, if we just don't have the reference point for what that looks like, then not only are we kind of fumbling around, so to speak, but we also have the expectation that we shouldn't have to. I know you guys talk a lot about sexual perfectionism and this expectation of, like, I should just know how to do this. And to the extent that I don't, then there must be something wrong with me because all I'm seeing is these examples, whether it's in movies or porn, which I think for most people is like, the two areas that we get our sex education, which is pretty woeful. There is this sense of brokenness or wrongness to the extent that our real sex life deviates from that depiction of it.
0:04:10.99 → 0:04:43.87
And I think that both people in the dynamic can be feeling that without talking about it. And no one wants to be the one to raise the fact that there's a problem or to acknowledge that there's work to be done there. And so it can just become this really pressure laden elephant in the room topic that we're tiptoeing around. And one of the big problems there, too, is that most of us will wait to talk about sex until something is really bad in our sex life. There's something that we're really not enjoying.
0:04:43.92 → 0:05:06.22
We're feeling super disconnected. Maybe we're not having sex at all. And so we hit that boiling point, and that's the point where we decide, fine, I've had enough. We have to talk about it. And of course, that's a very scary starting point if that's the first time you're approaching your partner to talk about it, and it only leaves you with the experience of, oh, sex is a scary thing to talk about.
0:05:06.27 → 0:05:20.86
When we have to talk about it, that's a bad sign. Yeah. And then therefore, you want to try to do everything in your power to make your sex life just okay enough so that you never have to have that feeling again. Never have to have that conversation again. Right?
0:05:20.96 → 0:05:47.05
Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think that's such a good point. It's only when it reaches crisis, and I think this is true for a lot of relationship stuff, that it's like the crisis point is the point at which we finally go, okay, there's something to address here. Rather than being proactive about the way we approach it and going, okay, this is something we talk about to enhance it and optimise it, rather than to fix something that's broken.
0:05:47.55 → 0:06:29.91
Because I think as you say once you're reaching that point, you're coming to the conversation with so much charge, so much sensitivity, all of those wounds that we all carry to varying degrees around unworthiness or undesirability. There's a good chance you've been having a lot of conversations in your own head preceding the real one that you have with your partner. So I think you're kind of, like, braced for the impact and the fallout of that. And it can become a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy there in that we both just get really guarded and protective about the way we approach that conversation, which, as you say, reinforces that this is not a safe thing to talk about. That this is not a productive thing to talk about.
0:06:29.98 → 0:06:52.64
We're stuck, there's no way out of this, and downward we spiral. So what do we do with all of that? I mean, I feel like we've gotten to the what do we do very quickly. I mean, obviously you've got this book, Sex Talks, and the premise being that there are these five conversations that can transform the way that you approach to sex. Do you want to share with everyone a bit of a bird's eye view of what the book is all about?
0:06:53.57 → 0:07:14.83
We start in a completely different place. Yeah, we're going to do it totally different from what we just described. So the first conversation of the five conversations, we call it acknowledgment, aka sex, is a thing. We have it. So the idea in this conversation is we want to ease you into talking about sex with your partner.
0:07:14.96 → 0:07:49.97
We want you to get comfortable with sex as a topic of conversation and we're not doing anything else in this conversation, so we're not giving feedback, we're not making complaints, we're not initiating sex. We have nothing, no agenda on the table here. It's literally just getting comfortable talking about sex. So one very practical thing that people can do if they want to get started is take a moment to think about one of your favourite sexual memories with your partner and then share that memory with them. So you can do that face to face.
0:07:50.04 → 0:08:32.48
If you're feeling shy, you can do it over text message instead. But what you're doing here is creating a positive experience around talking about sex, creating a positive foundation for the communication that you're going to continue having and showing yourself and your partner, that we can talk about sex and it can feel calm and playful and fun. Yeah. And I think that that is so important, having those corrective experiences where if we've only ever had that version of it that feels really scary and big and overwhelming, we actually need to show our system that there is another version of that. As much as we can intellectually know that, or rationally, we like, yeah, of course, hypothetically, that could exist.
0:08:32.53 → 0:09:18.06
I think having the low stakes, relaxed, calm version of a conversation about sex that actually feels connective rather than high pressure and high stakes. I can imagine why that is really beneficial. Yeah. And I mean, if you have had a lot of experience in your relationship of many of those high stakes type of conversations, you're going to have to have a number of these kind of agenda free, acknowledgment conversations to build that habit or that baseline of, you know, kind of walking back from where you all the pressure that you used to feel of like, okay, just bringing even bringing up the word sexual memory is making you feel like, oh, God, they're going to think I have an agenda. Yeah.
0:09:18.11 → 0:09:45.78
It's just going to have to be something that you repeat over and over to start breaking down those associations. But the idea is that over time, the acknowledgment conversation can actually just kind of turn into a way of flirting with your partner, of like, oh, acknowledging something about the sex that you just had. Acknowledging sex is a topic of like, this might be something we might want to do later. I can't stop thinking about last night. That was fun.
0:09:45.91 → 0:10:12.94
Yeah. So it definitely can feel like, okay, yeah. At the beginning it's like, this is a new way of thinking about sex and talking about sex and breaking those associations. But long term, a lot of people think, oh, well, we just need to acknowledge it and then we can move on. But it's actually like, this is one of the most foundational conversations because you can keep doing it and it actually just keeps helping you feel more connected, keeps your sex drive up and all those good things.
0:10:12.99 → 0:10:35.94
Yeah, totally. Would you advise people who are in a bit of a rut to start there? Obviously, in an ideal world, we'd be proactive. We'd be doing all of this from day one and laying the foundations for a really healthy, thriving sexual relationship straight out of the gate. But recognising that a lot of people haven't started there and might be in a really disconnected state.
0:10:35.99 → 0:11:12.99
Sexually mismatched, libido, all of those things that we can get into. Is it still best to return to acknowledgment as the starting point and just try and drop all of the other emotional weight and charge that might be living in your sex life? Yes. We wrote sex talks for all kinds of couples, for couples who are in a rut and really struggling, and for couples who feel like our sex life is pretty great, but we want to explore more, go deeper. So we definitely recommend that as the starting point for every couple, there is in that chapter instructions for how to have what we call like a fresh start conversation.
0:11:13.07 → 0:11:42.33
If you have talked about sex a lot in your relationship and it has only ever led to fighting a way to sort of clear the slate with each other and say, okay, you know what? I know we have really struggled to talk about this in the past, but let's wipe the slate clean and let's try to start fresh. Yeah. And I think that even if, say, you're in the midst of a really long dry spell, it's still important to be able to have this type of acknowledgment conversation. And maybe there's a little more to be wrapped into that of.
0:11:42.37 → 0:12:23.24
Like, I'm talking about this because sex is something that's important to me, and it's something that we both want for our relationship, regardless of where we're at right now. Because I think that's a mistake that a lot of people make is they feel like, well, I can't possibly acknowledge or talk about sex unless we are in a really good place with it. Because by acknowledging it, somehow I'm also going to have to acknowledge the fact that we're in the midst of a dry spell. But when you're in the midst of a dry spell, both people are aware of that. You're not fooling anybody by not talking about it.
0:12:23.37 → 0:13:16.71
Yeah. And I think that that can be really hard right when sex has become this thing between you that you don't want to touch and you don't want to talk about, and particularly when it's in that dry spell that's maybe fueled by mismatched libido over kind of a longer term and there's been one person wanting sex and the other not pulling away. The person wanting sex is probably going to be the person raising the conversation because that's how it usually goes. And I think navigating that dynamic of the person who's wanting sex and feeling rejected versus the person who doesn't want sex for whatever reason, that they may know or not know and feeling the pressure and feeling the guilt and the shame. I realise it's a bit of a diversion from the five conversations, but I'm sure it will be something that a lot of people can relate to.
0:13:16.83 → 0:13:48.48
This whole topic of mismatched libido and that dynamic of you do have one person who's feeling rejected and one person who's feeling guilty and broken. How can we talk about that and navigate it in a way that doesn't just feed those sensitivities and wounds on both sides? We start off the book by sharing the story of how we struggled with this in our own relationship in the first couple of years. And it was really challenging for us. I wanted us to talk about sex.
0:13:48.54 → 0:14:26.14
I wanted us to go to therapy and really work on our relationship. And Xander was not at the point where he was ready to. And it was a couple of the most painful months of our relationship of just sitting in that, what do I do? And so we wanted to start off being super vulnerable and sharing that story just to normalise. In relationships, it is so common for couples to be on different timelines and different pages, not only about do we want to be having sex or not how much sex we want to be having, but also are we ready to talk about this?
0:14:26.24 → 0:15:04.35
And so I wanted to just validate the experience of the person who's picking up the book and reading it. You're being very brave and you're going first, and it might be very challenging to feel that resistance from your partner or to feel them not wanting to engage with you. So we share that story and then we give specific tips for helping get your partner engaged in that conversation. And again, I know we've said it before, but trying to build that positive foundation of communication is going to be the best way to get started. Because if you go in hot and heavy and this is what I did in the beginning when we were struggling, why aren't we having sex?
0:15:04.42 → 0:15:25.79
Why don't you want to have sex with me more often? Yeah. And I just felt horrible. I felt horrible about our relationship, I felt horrible about myself, about myself as a man came into it, the sort of gender dynamics and yeah, it was not a fun way to go through that. Fortunately, we muddled through it.
0:15:25.83 → 0:15:52.80
We got some help eventually and I think we've tried to lay it all out in the book. Like, these are the ways that are better not to do it. These are the right ways to do it. Yeah. I also loved in that opening chapter, I mean, I really appreciated your vulnerability because I think it had that exact impact of it's very disarming to people reading it who otherwise feel alone and self conscious in that experience.
0:15:53.41 → 0:16:31.41
I also liked how you contrasted it with the initial chemistry and that kind of fall from grace, where we go, oh, no, what happened? Have we lost something kind of irretrievably? And when we don't really know what happened, then we feel kind of powerless. And again, particularly if there's one person who's wanting it to be like it was and kind of lamenting the loss of that kind of the transition from the honeymoon period into something different, I think that that can be really challenging. I know that in my work, a lot of it is around those anxious, avoidant dynamics.
0:16:31.46 → 0:17:19.19
And what I see time and time again is a lot of sexual intensity and chemistry to begin with. And I think that sometimes that intensity allows us to bypass having conversations because we don't really have to talk about it. It's just like the chemistry carries the whole encounter and then once that chemical haze subsides a bit, we realise that we've never really talked about sex. And other stuff can come up on the more avoidance side of the street, I think it's like, oh, I actually don't know how to be sexual with someone that I love and care about. This feels extremely vulnerable all of a sudden, and so there can be this kind of pulling away sexually and then the anxious person starts to freak out and goes, oh my God, like they're losing interest in me.
0:17:19.39 → 0:17:42.92
What have I done wrong? And so starts to push and escalate and poke and try and get that engagement back, which only causes more pulling away. Is that something that you see as well? And what would you sort of say to people who experience that dynamic, which I know is a lot of people? Yeah, the pursuer distancer, it's a classic dynamic that comes up so much.
0:17:43.02 → 0:18:11.19
If someone pulls away, then we just want to get drawn to them more. So, I mean, there are a bunch of things that you brought up in that one is a normalisation, that initial chemistry. Yes. It feels so good and it feels like this is the sign from the universe that I found my person. The chemistry is so good, but we walk through normalising that that stage chemically can really only last six to twelve months, max.
0:18:11.35 → 0:18:28.83
And then we settle into a different kind of intimacy in the relationship. But I think so many of us feel really afraid when we notice that spark start to fade. We get so scared of, what does this mean? Is this not actually my person? The signs in the universe is wrong.
0:18:28.90 → 0:19:03.56
And that can really activate that pursuer distance or dynamic, where one person might respond to that fear by I want to draw closer to you to make sure that we're going to stay together, and the other person might get avoidant and scared of, oh God, maybe this isn't the right fit. I need to kind of back away a little bit. Yeah. And I think there's so much meaning making on both sides, right. On the pursuer side, it's like I've done something and there tends to be a lot of unworthiness stuff there and a lot of personalization and internalising everything that's going wrong is like, I've done something wrong.
0:19:03.61 → 0:19:20.00
I've done something to cause you to lose attraction to me. And then on the other side it's like, I don't know why I'm not attracted to you, but the more you're coming at me like this, the more I have this urge to push you away and making that mean that there must be something wrong.
0:19:22.21 → 0:20:06.57
There's one chapter in the book where we share communication tips for going into the conversation. And those tips work really well for any kind of conversation, not just talking about sex, but one of them is called cheque your stories with each other. So we all make meaning of everything that our partner says and does, regardless of if it's in the pursuer distance or dynamic or not. But one thing that we've found especially helpful in our relationship is to actually speak those stories out loud and to ask our partner, is this accurate or not? So it's not like an accusation, like, oh, you're doing this because of blah blah blah, but it's an acknowledgement, hey, I'm realising I'm telling a story in my head that actually using that language.
0:20:06.65 → 0:20:23.37
I'm telling a story or I'm making up a story. Yeah. And then you can cheque that story with them. So that way it's not dumping it on them, it's not accusing them of anything. It's acknowledging that you're doing this yourself, but then you're checking it.
0:20:23.54 → 0:20:46.12
So it allows you to air out the fear. Because when we hold those fears inside and we don't share them, they often just feel stronger and stronger, and then that can make the way that we are approaching our partner even more intense. So it allows you to air out the fear, but in a way, like Xander said, it's taking ownership of it. I'm making up this story. This is how I'm putting the things together in my head.
0:20:46.25 → 0:21:02.11
Here's the story. Is that true? So then you're giving your partner the opportunity to say, oh, no, that's not true. That's not at all how I viewed the situation, or what I thought, or what I said, or anything like that. So it gives them the opportunity to correct.
0:21:02.26 → 0:21:47.10
Yeah, I love that. And my partner and I do that pretty much every conversation, every kind of relationship conversation is like, story. I'm telling myself, is this, or there's a part of me that's wanting to say this, or there's a part of me that's getting really angry, or that wants to tell you this. And I think that, as you say, it's like the ownership and kind of the witnessing of ourselves in it and taking that responsibility rather than just spewing it out on our partner and treating it as fact, which there's a lot of temptation to do that, I think, again, particularly around sex, which just feels so tender and vulnerable to just go into a really protective mode without even realising it. Just saying, Why don't you want this?
0:21:47.15 → 0:22:15.84
Or what's wrong with you? Any of that kind of language is just put someone in their own protective state and on the defensive, very reliably, and it's just not a productive starting point. And also using words like, there's a part of me, or, this is the story that I'm making up, it also makes you turn inward and figure out what is it that I'm feeling? What is it that I'm telling myself? It's so easy for us to focus on our partners.
0:22:15.90 → 0:22:37.37
You did this. You said that you feel this. You made me feel that. But that, of course, like you were just saying, only puts your partner on the defensive. None of us like being told what we think or feel, but it also completely cuts you out of the equation if you're just focusing so much on your partner's words and feelings and actions and all of that.
0:22:37.41 → 0:23:04.55
So if you turn that focus inward and say, okay, what is it that's actually here for me? What is it that's actually coming up for me? Because it's those feelings and emotions that really need tended to. If I were to tell Xander you feel this way, and he said, okay, sure, I feel that way, that's not actually going to be that satisfying for me because there's some underlying feeling that's being activated in me. That's why I'm attacking him.
0:23:04.62 → 0:23:38.36
So if I can access what that feeling is and say, this is what needs tending to, this is what I need, that's going to make the conversation go in such a healthier and more positive direction. Yeah, I think when we can down our shield and our sword and be like, what's the underneath part for me? What's the scared part in me? And can I vulnerably share that with you? It's not going to be comfortable, but you've got a much better chance of actually getting to the heart of whatever is happening and building a bridge between you rather than just like, firing arrows back and forth.
0:23:38.55 → 0:24:34.56
Something that I think, again, I certainly have personal experience with and I know a lot of other people will relate to is this distinction between, like, yeah, I want to have sex with you, but I actually want you to want that. And that thing that we want to be able to control our partner's feelings towards it rather than just getting the outcome of sex. And there can be a lot of charge around that and a lot of emotional density in that kind of dynamic of like it's not just that I want differently. I get a question a lot, which is like, how can I reframe it for myself so that I don't feel like my partner's doing me a favour by agreeing to have sex? Or like, that sex feels like a chore for them and it kind of detracts from it from my point of view, because I don't just want sex, the activity, I want a feeling of connectedness and I want to feel wanted.
0:24:34.69 → 0:25:12.88
Yeah, we call this I want you to want me. The dynamic that comes up a lot around this, we call this the inhibition effect that the longer you are in a relationship, the more inhibited we tend to get with each other around sex, particularly around initiation. So a lot of people, you've been in a relationship with your partner for years, even decades, and you find yourself getting more and more awkward and nervous and anxious about initiating sex. And so a lot of us in long term relationships, the way that we initiate intimacy is very boring, not particularly exciting. It's often like, it's been a while.
0:25:13.25 → 0:25:22.69
We do it. Do you want to do it? It's not very exciting. And it definitely doesn't give us that feeling of being desired. If Xander just tells me, do you want to do it?
0:25:22.76 → 0:25:54.60
I don't feel desired by him. Yeah. I mean, the only way that I respond super positively if she just goes, Want to do it? Is if I happen to be wildly horny. In that moment, you're actually not doing yourself any favours by a kind of low energy or roundabout initiation, because that actually sets the bar so high for your partner and you're setting them up to fail the test that you're kind of wanting to give, which is I want you to say yes and be super excited.
0:25:54.66 → 0:26:12.13
Right. So to get into the practicalities of this, the first step that you need to start with is identifying what makes you feel desired and wanted. So if I just tell Xander I want you to want me, great. What is that? Yeah, exactly.
0:26:12.28 → 0:26:37.61
And it could be very different things. So, for me, maybe the way that I feel wanted is by him giving me compliments about you. Like, you look so good, that outfit looks so nice on you, but somebody else might feel very wanted if their partner comes up behind them and just wraps them up in a hug. Somebody totally different might like, I like when my partner just grabs me out of nowhere and gives me a big kiss. So there are a lot of different ways that we can feel wanted.
0:26:37.68 → 0:26:56.87
And if your partner doesn't know the ways that work for you, then they're going to feel that nervousness and that anxiety and not really wanting to approach you with that energy. Yeah. And that's kind of where the second and the third conversations in the book come in. So the second conversation is connection. What do we need to feel connected?
0:26:56.97 → 0:27:19.52
And the third one is desire. What do we need to get turned on? And so with both of these, it's really about trying to uncover what are the things that make me feel most connected to you and what are the things that I do to you that make you feel most connected to me? And then, similarly, same thing with the desire. Like, what things really supercharge our own desire?
0:27:19.58 → 0:27:40.73
What things does our partner like? And how do we kind of give each other both what we need? The reality is, when we don't know what those things are, we tend to just assume, well, she must work the same way I work. So the things I love it when she cuddles me. So therefore, if I want to get more connected to her, I should just cuddle her.
0:27:40.77 → 0:28:16.49
And the reality is, what I've come to learn is vanessa physical affection is not the first thing that makes her feel the most connected to me or the most turned on. And in fact, Vanessa actually loves compliments. There's some very specific compliments that I have learned that she responds really, really well to. If I tell her she's killing it at anything, literally anything, she totally lights up. But if we had never talked about this, I would have never known that, because that, to me, I'm like, okay, thanks.
0:28:16.64 → 0:28:51.56
That's nice compliment, I guess I'm definitely not turned on as a result of that. And so it. Took me learning that and then actually having a lot of repetitions of doing it before I really, truly believed that it was working. Because to me it just seems so like it seemed too easy. But the reality is there's probably a lot of really easy ways that you could be feeling more connected with your partner, you could be turning each other on more that you are just not aware of, or you haven't had those things reinforced enough so that you really truly believe that you need to do them.
0:28:52.25 → 0:29:58.97
Yeah, and I think that that kind of leads into a really again, an important thing to normalise is like getting a bit pragmatic about curating your sex life and your life more broadly in a way that is supportive to your desire for sex and your connectedness with your partner. Again, it goes back to this very unrealistic expectation that if it's right, it should just be effortless or they should know everything that I need without me needing to tell them. My partner should be able to figure me out, know me better than I know myself totally. And that it's like some sort of indictment on us or our relationship if we have to take steps to make it work for ourselves. So I think whether it's curating contextually what supports us to desire sex or desire our partner or getting really clear on what gets in the way of that and kind of getting ahead of it rather than just expecting the stars to align and for us in all of our busyness for our partner in all of their busyness and bringing it all together.
0:29:59.04 → 0:30:36.21
And it just so happens to work, I think, yeah, it might not feel sexy, but not having sex isn't sexy either. Well, here's the funny thing too, is a lot of people will tell us, oh, I just missed the early days of our relationship. It felt so easy, so effortless then. But if you really take a trip down memory lane and think about those early stages of a relationship, there is so much effort that goes into that stage. You're scheduling dates with each other, you're usually pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, trying to do new things on the date.
0:30:36.33 → 0:31:05.23
You're putting your best foot forward, trying to present the best version of yourself to your partner. Even practical things like when Xander and I were dating, I could spend hours getting ready for the date, like getting myself so excited. So it's not that we have these magical days where there was zero effort involved, it's that we had a very different attitude about the effort. We got excited about it back then versus now. We judge ourselves for having to put in even the tiniest little scrap of effort.
0:31:05.31 → 0:31:49.16
Yeah, totally. And I think that tendency to just look at the early days with very rose coloured glasses, and it's not to detract from that at all, because, as we've said, there is something really lovely about that initial stage of a relationship. But I guess it's just like honouring that for what it is, while finding a way to see the more mature version of the relationship as an opportunity to go deeper, rather than like, oh, we've just lost that spark. And we just have to make our peace with that and kind of live out our days in this mediocre, lacklustre version of what we once were. So maybe next we can go.
0:31:49.18 → 0:32:28.68
I know we've still got two sex conversations, sex talks left, but what are the fourth and fifth conversation that we haven't yet covered? Or if there's more that you want to say on connection and desire? Yeah, we can go into number four, that's pleasure, fun one. What do we each need to feel good, to have a satisfying and pleasurable experience? And that one is another great one where so many of us feel this pressure to be amazing in bed, to be the best our partner has ever had, but a lot of us have never talked to each other about, well, what does good sex even mean to you?
0:32:28.81 → 0:33:20.81
So there's some really great conversations within that chapter all about starting to talk about it more openly and even exploring for yourself. What is it that brings you pleasure? Pleasure is a really interesting one in that a lot of people who come to us asking about low libido or like, low desire, what we find is that very often one of the main reasons that you don't have a very high sex drive, you don't think about sex very often, you don't want it. Very often is because the sex that you're having is not particularly pleasurable. Why would you be craving something that is not very enjoyable, or even worse, something that feels like a chore, something you have to have to take off, something that feels like it's more about your partner's pleasure than your own?
0:33:20.88 → 0:34:05.03
So the exciting part about this conversation is the opportunity it presents to really transform things in your sex life and also for yourself in terms of your own desire. Yeah, you touched on something there that I'd love to kind of go into, which is that tendency. I don't think it's exclusively gendered, but it's probably there's a lot of that, the tendency to focus on your partner's sexual experience and kind of ignore your own. And I think that the corollary of that is a real difficulty in receiving discomfort, in receiving it's. Like, I'm just so accustomed to being focused on ensuring you're having a good time that I actually don't feel comfortable with anything other than that.
0:34:05.07 → 0:34:24.15
Even if my partner was willing and wanting to focus on my pleasure, I don't really know what to do with that. It feels very exposing and vulnerable. Is that something that you guys see a lot? And what kind of advice would you give to people who struggle with receiving sexually. We see this all the time and it's also something that I've struggled with personally.
0:34:24.20 → 0:35:12.43
I share my story in the book about that. I struggled with orgasming with a partner for many, many years and I faked every single orgasm because I was so much more focused on my partner's experience on is my partner having a good time? I want to make sure it seems like things are clicking between the two of us that I don't seem too hard in the bedroom. I'm easy breezy and I think this is something that, like you said, it's not just limited to women, but as women, we are really socialised to be caretakers, caregivers, to put other people's needs before our own, so it's easier for us to slip into that role. And also compounding things is the way that we see sex depicted in the media.
0:35:12.50 → 0:35:51.99
Sex between a man and a woman is very focused on male pleasure. So it leaves so many of us women feeling broken because we feel like, god, I'm not getting a tonne of pleasure, I'm not having orgasms from this. Something must be wrong with me, so let me just fake it so my partner doesn't think anything's wrong with him. So yeah, it's definitely a really big issue that comes up for so many women. And that's one of the reasons why we're so excited about this conversation in particular, because we talk about the orgasm gap that's happening in male female relationships and we lay it out just in a very straightforward, matter of fact kind of way.
0:35:52.03 → 0:36:15.63
So there's no blaming of anybody in here. It's not like, oh yeah, the guys really need to fix this and they're doing a terrible job and you should feel ashamed of yourself or anything like that. It's just, hey, here's the reality of how female bodies and pleasure really work. Here are some of the challenges that we women come up against when it comes to being present and letting ourselves receive in the bedroom. And we talk about that.
0:36:15.67 → 0:36:36.22
A lot of male partners genuinely want their female partner to enjoy the experience. So it's just laid out in a really nice way that couples can read together and it takes the shame away from it while also giving you the information you need to start having sex. It's about both of your pleasure. Yeah. And I think it's so important as well for a lot of women.
0:36:36.67 → 0:37:01.11
There's probably some mindset work to do there around, like taking up the space and not feeling guilty or burdensome or that they're not going to enjoy it. So I just like the classic, I'm taking too long. And that's just such a surefire way to go into your head and out of your body, which tends to exacerbate it, right? Yeah. And that's a great story to cheque with your partner.
0:37:01.21 → 0:37:49.52
You could say to your partner, I have this story that I am too difficult in the bedroom or that if I were to allow you to focus on me, that you would get bored or resentful of me. Ask your partner that and see the response that you get because it's going to be very different from what you're fearing in your head. Yeah, because if I'm thinking about it right now, if I'm just asking myself what makes truly great sex, what first comes to mind for me is it's not about doing an act or doing the right sequence of moves. It's like I want to have an experience where I'm seeing my partner really, really enjoying things and feeling as good as possible. And we're both feeling really good.
0:37:49.57 → 0:38:11.53
We're both having a great time. I derive so much of my own enjoyment of sex out of the enjoyment that I see my partner having. It's not like, oh, I'm just in it for an orgasm at all. And so I think that that's so valuable to be able to cheque with each other. Like, what is it that we're actually looking for out of sex?
0:38:11.87 → 0:39:04.45
I think for most people, it's just that real, honest, mutual enjoyment. And I think another big piece in that is getting to know your own body. Because a lot of the time it's like, again, this expectation of that should all just be obvious or that my partner should know. And I think it is really hard to talk about sex, to ask for things if you don't really know what you like, what feels good, what doesn't. And so I think that in cultivating that sexual confidence, getting to know yourself sexually can really help you to feel like you've kind of a bit more prepared for that rather than a total beginner on your own body, expecting your partner to kind of have it all figured out for you.
0:39:04.54 → 0:39:33.98
Absolutely. And this is another way that the deck really gets stacked against us. Women, when we talk about masturbation in particular, men are really given much more permission around that there's a kind of like, oh, boys will be boys type of thing. But female masturbation is very looked down upon and so many women grow up feeling deeply ashamed. So we talk to women all the time who have never masturbated, have never even looked at what their genitals look like.
0:39:34.08 → 0:40:09.61
And so we are robbed of that opportunity to explore our own bodies, to discover what we like and what makes us feel good. The good news is that it's never too late to start doing this exploration. And sometimes getting yourself fired up about that crappy socialisation that we received can be a great motivator. Like, yeah, I've been robbed of this opportunity for so many years of my life and I don't want to waste another second. I don't want to let another moment go by where I feel like I'm not allowed to explore and to enjoy my own body.
0:40:09.81 → 0:40:39.98
And then on the flip side of all of that the deck has also been stacked against men in terms of the stories we get about sex, of feeling like we're supposed to be really good at it, we're supposed to be the leaders when it comes to sex. We're supposed to know somehow better than our partner does. If you're in a male female relationship, I think the stereotype or the story is like, it's all about giving her an orgasm rather than somehow both of you doing it together.
0:40:43.71 → 0:41:13.71
Guys talk to each other about like, oh, did you make her come? That kind of language. So it feels like, oh, well, this is what I'm supposed to be able to do. And I think a lot of men end up thinking, okay, well, I think I figured out what this one partner needed, and therefore that must be what all women need. And then you go into your next relationship doing that same thing, and if it's not working, it can feel like, oh my God, what's wrong with me?
0:41:13.75 → 0:41:41.00
And so it's just yeah, the story is never like, hey, every partner is different. When you start having sex, it's an amazing opportunity to get to know each other. It's like you get to start from scratch every single time. But instead we feel like, oh, we're supposed to take all this knowledge and these tools that we have from our past relationships and be really good. And the reality is, there's no such thing as being objectively good in bed.
0:41:41.05 → 0:42:18.67
Everybody is different, and we all need different things. Yeah, I think a person who's good in bed or a person who's sexually confident is a person who's willing to be vulnerable and have the conversations and do that messy work of fumbling through it and kind of allowing ourselves to be in that without being stuck in the rigidity of the sexual perfectionism that would have us believe that we're just meant to already know. So what's the fifth conversation? The fifth conversation is, what should we try next? Exploration is the name that we put on it.
0:42:18.76 → 0:42:50.33
So we've all heard the advice to try new things in the bedroom, and it actually is good advice. Research has found that when we try new things inside and outside of the bedroom with our partner, it just lights our brains up. It creates that sense of the spark of things feeling fresh and exciting, getting to see your partner in a new light, kind of like it did right at the beginning of your relationship, when you're pretty much only doing new things together. But when it comes to trying new things in the bedroom, a lot of us get very self conscious. It's like, I don't know what to try.
0:42:50.42 → 0:43:17.59
I don't even know what the options are to this conversation. We give you the options. One of the exercises in the conversation, it's like a huge list of possible things that you could try with your partner, and some of them are very small things, but even those small little changes or Tweaks can have a big difference. So we give you the options and we walk you through how to actually try new things in the bedroom without activating that sexual profession. Nice.
0:43:17.63 → 0:43:36.59
And I think that, again, comes back to this thing of like, oh my God, I don't want to look like an idiot. And it's so bizarre, isn't it? That our partner who sees us all day, every day, particularly if you're in a long term relationship. I love I can't remember exactly what you called it, but that like inhibition, the inhibition of sex. Yeah.
0:43:36.63 → 0:44:51.56
That the longer we're in it, the smaller we get in our sexual expression and really actively fostering the opposite arc so that we can be like, no. The more safety we create, the more we get to expand and grow and explore in our sexuality and really, like, creating the container for that to be the status quo in our relationship. And I think it is one of those things that feels really scary at first and then every time we have the conversation, it gets a little bit less scary and we get a little bit more comfortable with it. So it's like you just kind of have to take a deep breath and have that conversation the first time and you may have to fumble your way through it a few times, but just trusting that it's probably not going to be as scary as it feels like it's going to be. And I think arming yourself with all of this knowledge that can make it feel a bit less personal and a bit less hopeless going into it with those tools and that awareness that allows you to be optimistic and pragmatic and practical and, like, okay, maybe this isn't irreparably broken and there are things that we can do about it.
0:44:51.61 → 0:45:20.38
And I think taking solace in the fact that this is something that the vast majority of people struggle with to varying degrees at varying points in their relationship. There are very few couples who are just living that fairytale version of sex where everything works and never tapers and never fizzles. So rest assured that you're not alone in that. And it will take a bit of courage to have the conversations, but can really reap the rewards. Yeah.
0:45:20.40 → 0:46:07.54
And that was why it was so important to us to go first and be very vulnerable. In the book, we shared so many stories of things that went awry in the bedroom for us, of times that we struggled and felt like we were on different pages just to help people know you're so not alone. It's very normal, it's very common to struggle with sex, to struggle with that connection, with keeping that intimacy alive. But the good news is that with the conversations in the book, with these very practical tools that we share, you can absolutely recreate that feeling of closeness and get it even deeper and more intimate than you ever thought it could be. And I mean, even though Vanessa and I have had all these conversations, and we continue to have these conversations, our sex life is by no means perfect.
0:46:08.47 → 0:46:59.64
We still mess some of these things up, we still make mistakes and we realise that we've made a mistake and we loop back around and try to repair that. But I think the difference is when you are having these types of conversations and sex becomes a safe topic of conversation, yeah, you're going to screw up, things are going to go awry, your bodies are not machines. Like, nothing goes perfectly. But the difference is that now, when something goes weird or wrong or whatever, it's something that we can look back at and laugh about. It's something that we feel we feel more connected after sort of a sex mishap or something like that, versus when you don't have these conversations and it feels like, oh my God, that was so embarrassing.
0:46:59.67 → 0:47:29.45
It's this big, heavy thing that we can't acknowledge. So that's really the key with these conversations, is like, just turning sex into a fun topic instead of a scary topic. Yeah, totally. And I think that's kind of like, what we all want, ultimately, is for sex to feel light and playful and exciting and not this big, heavy, scary, dense, shame riddled thing. And I mean, yeah, my partner and I have been doing one of your courses, your Better Hot and More course.
0:47:29.52 → 0:48:12.03
So I can absolutely vouch for all of these tools and again, to kind of vulnerably share and normalise that it's okay to have to actively work on these things. And it doesn't matter who you are or what, you know, intellectually when it comes down to the actual being in relationship, we've all got work to do. And that's not something to be ashamed of. So is there anything to wrap up that you'd like to share? I just want the listeners to know, like I just said, that whatever challenges or struggles you're having in your sex life, you are definitely not alone.
0:48:12.13 → 0:48:44.41
And it's really this lack of conversation that has set all of us up for failures. That the decks stacked the decks against all of us, but that it is so possible to create the intimacy that you've always been wanting. And we hope that having these conversations will feel really fun and connecting for you. Where can everyone find you, obviously, on Instagram, your book and your courses. If they want to go deeper on Instagram, they can find us at Vanessa and Xander.
0:48:44.46 → 0:48:58.12
We show up in stories every day. We love hanging out there. Shoot us a DM. Let us know that you found out about us through this podcast. And then all of our guides and courses are@vmtherapy.com that's our website.
0:48:58.57 → 0:49:23.61
We love getting into the nitty gritty aspects of sex that nobody really talks about. So we have that better, hotter, more class that you mentioned. Then we have guides like our foreplay guides and next Level intercourse that really guide you through exactly what to do and when and challenges and all that kind of stuff. And then, of course, you can get the book@sextalksbook.com. We have a link there to all the different retailers.
0:49:23.69 → 0:49:50.77
And then if you want a free workbook that goes along with the book, just come back to that page, fill out step two after you've ordered, and we'll send you a free workbook so that you can go even deeper. Amazing. And I will link all of that in the show notes. Guys, thank you so much. This has been hugely valuable and I'm sure that everyone listening is going to have gotten a lot out of it and feel hopefully a lot more optimistic about the future of their sex life and what's possible.
0:49:50.86 → 0:49:55.18
So thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having us. Thank you.
0:49:58.19 → 0:50:20.80
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again soon.